Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login
A Middle-School Cheating Scandal Raises Questions About No Child Left Behind (newyorker.com)
129 points by sizzle on July 14, 2014 | hide | past | favorite | 135 comments



Our small town school district has very similar cheating going on with the state tests. The teachers involved are fairly bold about it. The kids would talk about getting advance copies of the final secured tests to bring home and practice with. I made copies of these tests, contacted the state department of education, and tried to report it. That was difficult and there was a lot of runaround regarding who would accept reports. Technically parents and others are not allowed to report cheating, it is to be done only by school staff.

I then contacted several local media reporters. They were surprisingly uninterested, perhaps since nearly everyone around has family members that work for schools in some capacity or another.

After contacting media though the state board must have heard what I was trying to do because the person in charge of testing at the state level personally contacted me, told me that although it might technically be considered cheating it wasn't really cheating, and that there was nothing to report.

Why is all this? Everyone is cheating, everyone knows they're cheating, and they all think they are so clever cheating the system because it results somehow in more federal funding via race to the top grants and the like.

I let my kids finish this school year. But that's the last year in that system, and now we are going back to homeschooling where they can learn something. Despite the advantages of cheating, the school has almost total dedication to test preparation every day of the year and no time for real academics. School is a tedious bore and the students are ignorant.


Are there private schools in the US that are reasonably priced? There is one thing that going to a school with ambitious and reasonably well-behaved kids will teach you better than homeschooling: The social skills and games required to navigate the world around you.

Interesting comment by the way. Ridiculous that it has become this bad.


In my (somewhat limited, I don't have kids, but went to school in towns with many options for private education) experience, private schooling in the US at every level is prohibitively expensive for all but the upper-middle class, and even then is usually a significant financial burden.


It really depends on your social circle. When pricing private schools, you need to realize that the very top will always be crazy expensive, because the very richest parents are paying whatever it takes to make sure their kids only interact with the kids of other rich parents. Whether this is effective is debatable, but enough do it that you have to slice them out of any analysis.

Private schooling doesn't have to be crazy expensive. 15 students in a room paying $500 a month is $7500 in revenue, and with roughly half going to overhead that still leaves $3750 going to the teacher, which over 10 months is a little less than the average US wage. If you make the workplace pleasant enough (such as not requiring teachers to have co-workers who cannot be fired) you can fill the roles.

That's about 5K a year. We can probably go down a huge rat-hole of whether a middle-class family can "afford" 5K, but I don't think it crosses into the lines of "prohibitively expensive."

There are also Catholic schools, which used to be much more prevalent, but they still exist.


My mistake in wording, I didn't mean that it was prohibitively expensive by necessity. It seems that education costs are artificially inflated in the US at all levels. I agree completely that education doesn't need to be expensive to be effective.


You can definitely find expensive private schools in every area. In my experience you can also find decently priced ones.

For my oldest we've moved through public, home school, private, and back to public over the years, trying various things. I have a criticism of each of them, and while we may have chosen the "wrong" private school, but it wasn't price that had us choose there.


"There's a reason education sucks, it's the same reason that it will never, ever, ever be fixed. It's never going to get any better, don't look for it, be happy with what you got. Because the owners of this country don't want that. I'm talking about the real owners, now. The real owners, the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians, they're an irrelevancy. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They've long since bought and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the statehouses, the city halls. They've got the judges in their back pockets. And they own all the big media companies, so that they control just about all of the news and information you hear. They've got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying,­ lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want; they want more for themselves and less for everybody else.

But I'll tell you what they don't want. They don't want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don't want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking. They're not interested in that. That doesn't help them. That's against their interests. They don't want people who are smart enough to sit around the kitchen table and figure out how badly they're getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fucking years ago.

You know what they want? Obedient workers,­ people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork but just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, reduced benefits, the end of overtime and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it. And, now, they're coming for your Social Security. They want your fucking retirement money. They want it back, so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They'll get it. They'll get it all, sooner or later, because they own this fucking place. It's a big club, and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club." - George Carlin

There's your answer to why.

The answer to how involves more details, but it basically has to do with pacifying the concept of critical thinking from our education system and all facets of american culture, and replacing it with rote learning. It's a lower form of intelligence, which is great for passing arbitrary tests and producing the obedient workers who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork.

The best thing you can do for a child is teach them how to think and learn for themselves. Grow their critical thinking skills and get them into programming or engineering. Teach them empathy. Oh, and buy them a bitcoin.


As someone inside the higher education machine and who is married to a long-time teacher, that's false; there is no conspiracy to keep kids dumb in schools.

The problem is that we're tasked with coming up with a universal system of education for an unbelievably varied skill set presented by students. So, we shoot for the middle (or just slightly below the middle when parents complain that it's too hard). Combine that with apathy and burn-out among the aging workforce in education, and you get the full picture.

There's no conspiracy, just an averaging out of student abilities and bitter, resigned teachers who are tired of being told how to do their jobs by politicians and loud-mouths in the media.

Whether or not critical thinking skills are being fostered in our current system in all classrooms, that's another question. But, there is no conspiracy.

As a side note; working in programming and engineering doesn't magically imbue a person with more or better critical thinking skills than English literature or art history.


I feel for you. It seems that for each design decision, school systems are set up to be easy to administer. Slots students and teachers into classes and classes into periods and rotate them around.

But:

who are tired of being told how to do their jobs by politicians and loud-mouths in the media

If you are getting paid by the public, the public is going to have lots of opinions on your job performance. Everyone has to answer to someone, whether its bosses or customers or constituents, and no one is given a guarantee that these people will only judge you based on the "correct" things.


Agreed.

People have a really bad problem of analyzing what's wrong with schools. Part of the reason why is that we always want to think in terms of us-versus-them. It's very difficult to keep in your head a system where intelligent people are all acting in good faith, yet the results are so poor. Much easier to buy into some kind of slogan.

Public education is a service, and like with any service, the people writing the check have certain expectations. With education, it's very simple: secondary education should provide the student with the ability to have a productive job and/or move on to higher education.

But there are a ton of confounding variables. Student populations are not the same. Facilities differ. We all know the spiel. This stuff is difficult! Good teachers require the ability to creatively match teaching style to students.

With difficult creative jobs, we know what works: as few rules as possible, clear acceptance criteria, and diverse people working in small groups with creative tension. This isn't a mystery.

Instead we've created overly-complex monstrosities of administration, consultants as far as the eye can see, an institutional, assembly-line metaphor for work, and stringent rules slathered on top. Then we add in teacher's unions and school boards. Finally, some smart ass came up with the idea "Just what are we doing, anyway? We need a test!"

I agree with the smart ass. We need a test. In fact, as a taxpayer without acceptance criteria I'm not paying for it. But tacking a test on top of the heaping pile of dog shit we currently have as an education system will not make it work. It'll just point out how bad it is. That's fine with me, but be prepared for a lot of fake "X raises questions" articles like this one as the establishment twists itself into pretzels trying to deny that it's the structure of the system itself that is at fault, not the tests.

So it's a tough situation. There are no good or bad guys, and that just makes it worse.


> People have a really bad problem of analyzing what's wrong with schools. Part of the reason why is that we always want to think in terms of us-versus-them.

That's actually, IMO, not even close to the biggest problem. The main problem with analyzing what is wrong with the schools is that no one can agree to shared definition of the mission of the schools that admits to an easy objective measurement, and, that this is complicated by lots of people selling proposed metricsbased on their beliefs about what those metrics will be which will justify the policy prescriptions they already prefer, which are often based on prefered outcomes that are different than what the outcomes are advertised as proxies for measuring (and often based on concealed ideological or financial interest of the people selling them.)


Meh, not so much.

Look at it this way: schools are political systems. Therefore, they exist and will continue to exist entirely based on the perceived value the voters are getting.

I seriously doubt voters sit down debating complicated metrics. Whatever the criteria that causes voters to vote one way or another is, you can be assured it is a simple one.

Sure, the nerdy, pointy-hat discussion is way down in the weeds, but that's not how political systems operate -- unless you're just trying to blow smoke up people's asses, in which case you can line up a dozen experts for and against anything you want. It's back to clanning and politics. This ain't engineering.


You're right. That should have read: "who are tired of being told new and exciting ways to do their jobs by new> politicians and loud-mouths in the media, but that really only amount to what we did five years ago."

Really, though, it's less that we're told what and how to do it, and more that the what and how is generally 5-10 years behind current research and practice.

For example, current practice under common core standards is what was being taught in the late 90's and early 2000's in teacher preparation programs. We knew it worked then, but that movement didn't have the political willpower/firepower of NCLB.


I never called it a conspiracy. Those were not my words.

People in power prefer constituents that produce wealth while being easy to control. That's just a fact of logistics. Encouraging education and arts that benefit critical thinking does not produce those results.

Encouraging education that relies on rote memorization does produce those results. So the people in power naturally choose the solution that best fits their own self interests. No conspiracy required.

That is why No Child Left behind was enacted. That's why the changes in Common Core (at least for mathematics) would make any mathematician lose their shit.

The evolutionary nature of a system does not require groups 'conspiring' in order to vote collectively on beneficial traits. It happens naturally.


Yeah, I don't think there is a conspiracy. I think you are full of it.

edit: see, that was a critical thinking.


It's not a conspiracy, it's a self-organizing system. Each person acts in their own interests with the information and resources they have available, and this is the end result.


Exactly.


No it wasn't, and just calling it that just highlights the problem.


Ah, George Carlin after he went from "funny" to "embittered old man prone to ranting"

Not that he was wrong.


The reporting on this scandal has focused on NCLB as the evil outside influence which corrupted the garden of Eden that was Atlanta public schools. That is like blaming the coroner's office for a spate of murders.

Atlanta schools were ineffectual, corrupt money pits which failed generations of poor students, and that was not a problem until Washington upset the apple cart and put a number on it.


NCLB tried to fix those "ineffectual, corrupt money pits" by giving enormous, overriding importance to a small set of easily gamed statistics.

Creating a single performance metric that people Must Meet Or Else is an exceedingly naive approach to performance problems. It creates perverse incentives that reward cheating and short-term hacks over sustainable long-term solutions, and it doesn't actually do anything to help solve the problem at all.

I'm not, to be clear, saying that trying to use statistics as a tool to solve problems in education is a bad idea, but laws like NCLB are comparable to non-technical managers trying to measure software dev performance with metrics like "lines of code produced" or "number of bug tickets closed". (And I don't think I have to explain to anyone here why that's a bad idea.)


A corrupt incompetent cronyistic mess is going to be a mess whether or not you use a small set of gamed statistics or nothing at all.

The reporter doesn't get it when they critically remark that the reform model "ignored less quantifiable signs of intellectual development" - no, what would happen if it didn't is just that the people who are willing to make up test scores en masse will also make up all those 'less quantifiable signs' except you won't have any way of knowing about their bullshit.

The NCLB gaming of standardized tests, on the other hand, forces the incompetence out into the open in the form of unmistakable undefensible clear outright fraud.

So, which is better? To have all your metrics gamed and to not know it, or have them gamed and a chance of detecting the fraud?


> The NCLB gaming of standardized tests, on the other hand, forces the incompetence out into the open in the form of unmistakable undefensible clear outright fraud.

The outright fraud isn't the only thing it forces (and, really, its sort of the extreme fringe); the more routine thing it forces is reluctance of schools to promote students based on academic ability since holding advanced students back in grade level improves metrics of students that are function at or above grade level.

(Of course, its an unsustainable optimization, which also increases the rate at which advanced students with involved parents defect from the public school system entirely, but that's an effect that takes longer to materialize than the short-term effect on metrics.)


Please be concrete. How do you game standardized tests? Sample tests can be found here, so make sure your proposed method would actually work.

https://www.georgiastandards.org/resources/Pages/Tools/Testi...


I'll be concrete and define "game standardized tests" as "aspects which influence the test results other than proficiency in the subject matter."

On the teacher side, one way to game them is via test prep. Quoting from http://curmudgucation.blogspot.com/2014/04/what-test-prep-is... : "learning how to perform the specific cockamamie tasks favored by the designers of the various state-level assessments"

That includes:

> We have covered "How To Spot the Fake Answers Put There To Fool You." We've discussed "Questions About Context Clues Mean You Must Ignore What You Think You Know." We've discussed how open-ended questions require counting skills (the answer to any question that includes "Give three reasons that..." just requires a full three reasons of anything at all, but give three). For lower-function students, we covered such basics as "Read All Four Answers Before You Pick One."

> We have pushed aside old literary forms like "short stories" and "novels" in favor of "reading selections"-- one-page-sized chunks of boring contextless pablum which nobody reads in real life, but everybody reads on standardized tests. We have taught them to always use big words like "plethora" on their essay answers, and to always fill up the whole essay page, no matter what repetitive gibberish is requires. We have taught them to always rewrite the prompt as their topic sentence. In PA, we have taught them what sort of crazy possible meaning the test-writers might have assigned to the words "tone" and "mood."

This is gaming the system because had the test givers used a completely different approach, say, of using open-ended questions instead of multiple-choice answers, or "give persuasive reasons that..." instead of the more easily tested "three", then this test prep would not work. Not that that alternate testing form will happen in standardized tests, because it's a lot more expensive to grade free-form tests. But teachers themselves can ask these sorts of questions, to help gauge proficiency.

Another way to game the test is on the test giver's side - they get to define what the pass/fail thresholds are. For example, "a test question was considered "hard" or "easy" not because it required a particular skill; its difficulty was determined based on how many students got it correct." Quote from http://jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com/2013/08/scoring-ny-tests-w... .

Since the thresholds can be determined after the fact, this means it's not really judging proficiency but instead is making the test give a pre-defined pass/fail curve.


See also the “Cluss Test”¹; a gibberish test which it is nevertheless possible to get 100% right using nothing but “tricks”. For those wanting to try their skill, I have made an interactive version here: http://www.recompile.se/~teddy/cluss-test

1) http://www.tmk.com/ftp/humor/quiz


I worked for eight years in standardized testing. I ran systems that facilitated operation of a number of different standardized tests for government and commercial clients. One of the tests was a certification used by states for a particular cosmetic procedure. The test was written in Spanish and English. A significant number of people who took the test did not speak other of these languages, usually Vietnamese. This wasn't a problem because the test key had obvious patterns in it to facilitate passing the test. You simply told another person what the pattern was, and anybody could pass it without being able to read a word of English or Spanish. It was obviously set up this way on purpose, although no other test I worked on was like this.

I learned a few things about standardized tests after working on them for so long: 1. almost none of the criticisms of standardized tests apply to a well-designed and maintained test, in particular "susceptible to gaming" or "culturally biased against minorities"; 2. many tests are badly designed; many tests function only as professional barriers to entry and governments/certification bodies don't care all that much how unfair the tests are as long as the final numbers come out right.

I worked on two tests for the federal government. They both were done with great care to be as fair as possible, although I learned how they manipulated the process to get the demographic mixture they desired.


"How to spot the fake answers put there to fool you" == "how to see when an answer isn't even in the ballpark". That's a useful skill. That "context clues" thing suggests teaching students how to solve the problem in front of them, not the easy problem their mind wants to substitute for it [1].

From what this guy describes, "test prep" sounds like "educating students".

I agree that grading of essays is a disaster. It's not specific to standardized tests, however - that's how all my essays were graded from grade 1 all the way to college.

Another way to game the test is on the test giver's side - they get to define what the pass/fail thresholds are.

This is why tests are standardized, not left up to the schools or teachers.

[1] A hard problem: "What is the optimal incarceration time to dissuade people from pedophilia." An easy problem: "How angry do pedophiles make me feel?" When most people hear the first question, which is hard, their mind substitutes the second much easier question for it. See Kahneman's book "Thinking Fast and Slow" for more on this. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0374533555/ref=as_li_tl?ie=...


I defined what it meant to game a test, and gave definitions which fit the example. You have rejected my definition, without giving an alternative.

"That's a useful skill" is not a useful educational criterion. Knowing how to change a tire on a car is a useful skill, but it's not appropriate for a math course.

"Educating students" is also a useless criterion. Education is a never-ending process. I'm still learning things now. Schools by necessity must restrict themselves to certain topics. A Spanish teacher cannot simply use "I'm educating students" as an excuse to spend four weeks on Canadian politics in the 1970s.

If test prep is so important, why isn't it its own course, where the teachers are trained for it, and where there are specific curriculum goals?

"This is why tests are standardized, not left up to the schools or teachers" - are you willfully ignoring the point? Someone defines the standards. The page I linked to suggests that the standards for this New York test were defined by people who want the public school systems to fail, as part of the general effort to privatize public school.

As http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/08/... points out:

> The bottom line is that there are tremendous financial interests driving the agenda about our schools — from test makers, to publishers, to data management corporations — all making tremendous profits from the chaotic change. When the scores drop, they prosper. When the tests change, they prosper. When schools scramble to buy materials to raise scores, they prosper. There are curriculum developers earning millions to created scripted lessons to turn teachers into deliverers of modules in alignment with the Common Core (or to replace teachers with computer software carefully designed for such alignment). This is all to be enforced by their principals, who must attend “calibration events” run by “network teams.”

You even used the passive "that's why tests are standardized" - who standardized the tests, what political and financial goals influence them, and how transparent is the standardization process?

When the schools and teachers define the tests, then these issues are much clearer, and any failures are limited to just the school or teacher, and not systemic to the entire state.

Hence why it's possible, and likely, that some test standardizers have gamed the test results, under my concrete definition of "gaming."


I agree that if you want to define education in the course material as "gaming", the tests can indeed be gamed. Knowing how to reject an obviously false answer (e.g., "23.6 x 10.9 = ? a) 1,000,000, b) 0.000000001, c) 257.24 d) 527.24) is part of learning math.

As for who defines the standards, the answer is our politicians or whoever they delegate to. And if you define gaming as "defining a standard", then yes, the test creators also game the system.

So far, you haven't actually pointed to any part of the standard that you object to. Nor have you pointed out any sort of gaming other than "teaching the material on the tests, including how to ballpark answers".


I defined gaming as "aspects which influence the test results other than proficiency in the subject matter."

I did not define it as "education in the course material". Please don't make that assumption.

It's impossible to evaluate your example without defining the pedagogical goal. Your example test question cannot distinguish between proficiency in multiplying two three-digit numbers, and proficiency in selecting from one of four possible answers, where two are obviously incorrect.

That said, this question is biased in favor of students who have been taught estimation techniques, in this case, round, compute 20 * 10, and look for the closest answer. They will be able to answer more of these types of questions than students who can actually multiply the numbers, but haven't learned the approximation methods.

Had the answers been "1) 257.24, 2) 256.24, 3) 247.34, 4) 248.34" then the other class of students would fare better. Then again, those who learned casting-out-nines would be able to reject two of these quickly.

It's clear that sometimes ballpark answers are better than exact ones. In bookkeeping, it's clear that exact answers are better. It's possible to teach students both ... by taking time away from other skills which are also part of mathematical proficiency. A standardized testing system encourages monoculture teaching, so that all students are primarily taught the method most likely to be on the test, on the assumption that the test defines proficiency.

It appears that you have defined "proficiency in the subject matter" as "ability to pass a standardized test." If so, then by definition it's impossible to game the system, making this discussion pointless. Is that your definition of proficiency?


P.S. Here's another way to game the test system - expel your worst students before the state tests. In that way, your school gets the money (for the student) but doesn't have to be responsible for the poor grades, or even make an effort to educate them. See http://www.researchonreforms.org/html/documents/DumpingKidsO... for examples.


Ironically, standardised testing is a prime example of a system choosing to solve an easy problem instead of the problem it has.

Hard question: are our schools meeting the educational needs of their pupils and society?

Easy question: did enough pupils fill in enough of the right circles on this test for us all to not get fired next year?

If you exchanged test scores for production figures and teachers for farmers, this article could be a story directly out of Soviet agriculture in the collectivisation era. I'm finding it highly entertaining to watch you, of all people, defending this system so vehemently.


If you don't have standardized testing, how do you know if the students are being educated? More specifically, how do you identify schools that need help and focus resources effectively?


The problem is that standardized testing doesn't tell you if students are being educated, it tells you if students are passing standardized tests, which is a different problem that, at best, only partially overlaps with the actual question. If you over-optimize for standardized testing, you end up under-optimizing for actual education.

I had to take the WASL as part of my graduation from high school, back in 2003. Forcing this requirement on schools did not improve our education, it degraded it. Instead of actually reading two or three good books in our english class, we studied cliff notes of 15 or so works, so we could write shallow summaries of "key themes" for the test, for whichever books actually appeared on it. Instead of going forward with trigonometry in math, we went over estimation and hammered on very basic geometry problems. My government class stopped covering its subject matter entirely, and we studied analogies and reading comprehension, because government wasn't on the WASL (at the time; it might be now). The net effect was that as a class we did really well on that test, but our actual education suffered. That's what standardized testing gets you.


The problem is that standardized testing doesn't tell you if students are being educated

But what will?


I program for a living, but I've not taken any programming tests since I was in school. How do people know that I'm doing a good job without my taking a standardized test?

The answer is one we've had for a long time - talk with the teachers. Teachers are professionals, paid to educated children and evaluate what needs to be improved. We developed normal schools to train people how to be teachers. These became known as teachers' colleges, and then became education programs in a university.

In addition to continuing education programs and peer development, we also have oversight programs in place, including the department head, principal, and local school board. Among other things, these are supposed to help identify teaching problems and remedy them.

Unfortunately, management is both support and punishment, which can lead to power imbalance where a school board member says "My nephew must be on the football team or else you won't get a raise next year!" One way to limit this power imbalance is to set up a teacher union or tenure system. Another is for additional community oversight, which may include the parent-teacher organizations like the PTA.

Therefore, your question sounds like you trust the authors of standardized tests (who are often in for-profit companies that sell the tests, sell standards, and sell text books which match the standards) more than you trust teachers or the professional education system.

Why is that, do you think?


How do people know that I'm doing a good job without my taking a standardized test?

Measure your outputs, ideally with unit tests, manual testing and the like. Does your code do what it's supposed to?

Standardized tests are basically unit tests for teachers - they measure whether the teacher's outputs are capable of reading and writing.

...talk with the teachers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_problem

Note that the test manufacturer has no such problem.


There are a couple of other branches in this thread waiting for your followup for the last few hours, and you pick this one? I still want to know if you think that "proficiency in the subject matter" is defined as "ability to pass a standardized test."

You think neither I nor the entire education system over the last 150 years have ever considered the effect of the principal agent problem? I even said "we also have oversight programs in place, including the department head, principal, and local school board." I elsewhere also pointed out to you how test manufacturers stand to make a profit if they can convince people to buy their tests, curriculum, and text books. They most certainly have a bias.

Your comparison to unit tests is telling, in ways you didn't mean it to be. Every project I've worked on has a very different set of unit tests, with essentially nothing shared between the different test cases outside some common test infrastructure.

Even multiple people on the same project end up writing different sorts of unit tests for the same code base. I do more functional and coverage driven tests, a co-worker is a red-green-refactor TDD developer. This diversity of tests is probably better for the overall code base than if we all did the same thing.

You do realize that teachers almost certainly have studied assessment design as part of their coursework, while most developers have almost no formal training in test engineering or experience in, say, coverage analysis?

If the goal is to test the students, then the teacher can - like the developer with good test engineering skills - develop the appropriate tests for the given set of students and expected knowledge. Except the teacher's tests must also be engaging and authentic, while the computer doesn't care what it runs.

And yet you think that one single set of unit tests for, say, all 8th grade English teachers can be useful enough to judge a specific student's progress, or a specific teacher's skills? Where does that optimism of yours come from?


Honestly, I have no idea if you're doing a good job. At least (as far as I know) you're not asking for federal funding for your job.

Well, I don't have to trust the authors since I can see and evaluate the test for myself. I can't really evaluate every teacher and analyze the pressures on them.


Education is primarily state funded, not federal. I believe federal funding is only 10% of the local school budget, and includes meal assistance and other things which aren't directly tied to a teaching position.

In any case, your original question is also valid for private schools - how do the parents of private school students know if their children are being educated or if the schools need help? How does the bishop overseeing several Catholic schools do the same?

Therefore, why is "federal funding" relevant to the topic?

As I understand it, you don't have access to the questions and answers for the high stakes tests, so you can't evaluate them. I can be proven wrong. Can you show me the complete set of questions for a state test from last spring? I looked for Florida, and only found FCAT tests from 2005/2006 at http://fcat.fldoe.org/fcatrelease.asp . I could not find FCAT 2 questions from 2013 or 2014, though I did find the scores from http://fcat.fldoe.org/fcat2/ .

This is what I expected, because some of the questions are potential questions for future tests, and exist to calibrate the tests. If the questions and answers are published, then they can't be used that way.

Which suggests that you don't know what you're talking about, as regards high stakes testing, or that there are some states where all of the tests are published, so that people like you can review them. Which tests are you thinking of?

If I understand you correctly, you are satisfied if you can "see and evaluate the test." Wouldn't you be similarly satisfied if you could "see and evaluate" all of the tests from each teacher at every school? Since that seems a lot cheaper and easier to do than set up high-stakes testing across the country.


You're right about most of the funding but NCLB has provisions to redistribute federal money to specific schools. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#Fundi... And while you don't get specific questions, you can see example tests to see what subjects are covered, how much is multiple choice vs essay, etc.


Yes, the feds contribute some of the money in exchange for a lot of the rules. That doesn't change anything of what I said - your original question is independent of federal involvement and could equally apply to privately owned Catholic schools.

Have you changed your viewpoint? You previously said "I don't have to trust the authors since I can see and evaluate the test for myself." Now you're okay with seeing only a synopsis of what's in the tests? Why do you still trust the authors if you can't see the actual test?

If you could get the same synopsis of the questions that the teachers ask, then wouldn't you also be satisfied? Why not?


I'm actually kind of disappointed that there's not more information available. It still seems better than what we got before, which was even less informative. And it would be niceto have that synopsis, but it's much more useful to have a standard so we can compare across schools.


I'm completely bewildered. I said:

> your question sounds like you trust the authors of standardized tests (who are often in for-profit companies that sell the tests, sell standards, and sell text books which match the standards) more than you trust teachers or the professional education system.

> Why is that, do you think?

You answered that it's because you could see the test questions, and evaluate them for yourself. Then you said it's because you could see samples of the questions. Now you say it's because you can compare scores?

Curriculum standards have been around since the 1800s, so is "have a standard" short for "have standardized tests"? Actually, we've had those for decades - my birth state of Florida started them in the 1970s, so I assume you mean "have high stakes standardized tests"? Actually, Florida also introduced the nation's first required high school graduation test in 1977", so you must mean "frequent high stakes standardized tests", yes?

How is this more useful than earlier assessment tests, as well as GPA, SAT scores, ACT scores, graduation percentages, number of students going on to the Ivy League/Big 10/whatever, number of National Merit (semi)finalists, number of available AP/IB courses, average AP score results for a given field, lists of extracurricular activities, football team scores, and a lot of other cross-school comparison metrics?

Again I ask, what is the basis of your trust of the authors of a standardized test over the teachers and the professional education system?


Nobody said anything about not having standardised testing. The problem here is high-stakes standardised testing.

You can know stuff about a system that you can't measure completely (i.e. any system) by sampling it - you'll get a lot of noise and even some systematic biases, but as long as you maintain an awareness of that you will know something.

The problem comes when you want to control things. If you create a feedback loop by attaching strong incentives to the measures you are using to acquire knowledge, then you end up with neither control nor knowledge. You're no longer taking a representative sample, just measuring the gain of your feedback loop.

And if you apply the incentives at a granularity of measurement such that noise overwhelms the signal (by a factor somewhere between 7 and 100, according to the article)...


>"How to spot the fake answers put there to fool you" == "how to see when an answer isn't even in the ballpark". That's a useful skill. That "context clues" thing suggests teaching students how to solve the problem in front of them, not the easy problem their mind wants to substitute for it[1]. From what this guy describes, "test prep" sounds like "educating students".

OK, sure, it does sound like educating students, IF you accept that teaching people to spot inconsistencies and trap questions in a ritualized multiple choice test is a skill that transfers to other situations. Unfortunately this is really not the case at all. It's an education in how to navigate specific public-school bureaucracy. It doesn't even teach people to navigate other shitty bureaucracies.


> From what this guy describes, "test prep" sounds like "educating students".

It's educating them in the wrong things. For example, goal of class: better thinker by learning to do multiplication. Because of test, they only learned memorizing multiplication tables.


The tests ask for multiplying 3 digit numbers. That's a lot of memorizing.


that was a simple example. A better example might be memorizing quotes from a book to regurgitate in the test*

* (I had to do this as part of GCSE English in the UK - I expect a similar situation in the US)


Why don't you look at the real tests and see if such tricks are possible?


> "How to spot the fake answers put there to fool you" == "how to see when an answer isn't even in the ballpark". That's a useful skill.

It's a probabilistic skill, and in so far as the test is designed to give a measure of what someone knows, and not how lucky they've been, it's gaming the system.

Is it a useful skill? Well, yes. To an extent. So is knowing your addition table, but we expect students to have moved somewhat beyond that by the time they're in secondary education. Just as we'd expect someone educated for five years, six or seven hours a week, 28-40 weeks a year, to have advanced somewhat beyond the need for discarding comedy answers as a viable test strategy.

By secondary level, we'd expect them to know, (or be capable of running the calculation,) to decide among those answers that are actually in the ball park. Approaches for which the cost is more or less constant regardless of how many answers are on the page: You trust your calculation or memory to have given you the answer and discard all others by default.


The thing you are blatantly ignoring is this: standardized tests also teach children the lesson that there will be exactly one correct answer in all of life's situations, and that there will be exactly one OK method for every possible challenge faced. No exceptions.

Which is sometimes true sure. But it is frustrating working with academic "stars" who internalize this once they come to the "real world". They are focused so much on getting the "right answer" within some narrowly defined context of right, that they can't see the better solution by reinterpreting the problem or recasting the assumptions in a slightly different order. They are unable to combine bits of knowledge from different buckets, because the test questions are all neatly siloed.

For example, I've had this argument with fresh grads many, many times:

me: you need to limit your UDP packets to 512 bytes (or 8K depending on the situation).

them: but my teachers told me UDP packet size is a 16 bit integer.

me: yeah, but many stacks cut off shorter, because there is a different standard that says routers can drop packets bigger than their preferred size, the only minimum is 512 bytes.

them: my teacher told me that the packet size is a 16 bit field. Why are you talking about routers?

me: because you need to combine information to actually solve a problem?

them: whatever, I need to figure out what the bug in my code is causing these packets to be dropped.

Or -

me: hey $intern, let's figure out a few ways to solve approach this problem. expounds on the problem, lays out a few things that might work. The goal here is to try a few different techniques so we can work them into the bigger design. Any questions?

intern: no.

a few days later

intern: Hey I think i solved the problem, is this one solution right?

me: it's one way. It has some good stuff and bad stuff, but we want to try a few solutions to determine how to think about this.

intern: looks like a lost puppy but is it right?

Following conversation about multiple solutions and exploring solutions resembles "who's on first"

The biggest problem with standardized testing is there is no room for the idea that outside of school, it isn't always about doing the rote thing, the simple siloed task in front of you, but rather incorporating various bits of knowledge, about applying the bits of knowledge in ways that allow task completion for tasks that aren't extremely well defined with a pre-arranged solution.

In fact - the lack of a pre arranged solution is what defines most work outside of menial jobs. The idea that there is more than one approach or solution to something is antithetical to the core of standardized testing.

(keep in mind - that for the statistics to be meaningful, the tests can't allow for grading criterial other than "one strictly correct answer" or you end up with issues in the numbers as the result of graders being different.)


There's pretty strong evidence suggesting this isn't a problem. Or if it's a problem, it's not one that schools can solve.

Teaching "critical thinking" is basically a waste of time. You can't do it. It would be nice if you could, but you can't. "Critical thinking" simply doesn't transfer. (Well, they do a tiny bit, if they are done right, but there's more fine print than Facebook's ToS to any claim that you can teach students how to think.)

Let's say you took all those "creative thinking" skills you learnt in networking, did a course on photography, then got a job with a really good photographer. Guess what - you might have decent communication skills, but you'd still come off as a clueless idiot who can't "think creatively" or "solve problems", because you don't have the domain skills and knowledge.

If they've got a solid core of domain skills and knowledge, they can actually think for themselves. If they don't, they'll be clueless, and just try to memorise answers.

Anyone who can tie their own shoelaces knows "there's more than one way to solve a problem". Kids can actually think for themselves, if and only if they understand the domain.

Now, maybe the schools are teaching really badly, and the tests are geared towards forcing students to answer questions rather than solve problem - that's a problem. As in machine learning, getting students to memorise training data just leads to brittle learning. That might be the real problem - the blind are leading the blind, and some teacher who can't network is telling kids to memorise whatever was in the book, because no-one in the class has a clue. That's a recipe for incompetence.

And we know that high stakes tests with rewards for "good" teachers are like paying programmers per LoC. But that's not a problem with standardised tests anymore than code metrics are a problem. Idiots in management can cause issues, though.


I disagree completely with "you must already have domain knowledge to be able to apply basic learning skills within that domain". I've seen people enter new domains and do well, and other enter new domains and do poorly. The difference seems to be the ability to ask "how do the things I do already know interrelate?"

It is a matter of metacognition (thinking about what I know and how it applies) and not being paralyzed by fear of "getting the wrong answer". The former can be taught, and there are teaching methods that show success around the concept. The latter is something that is hard to overcome when people spend 16 formative years being punished when they don't "find the exact, single, and exclusive" answer and not being rewarded for "learning a few ways". (although research also shows that tests that are not binary - that is all points or no points - do a good job of helping with the fear e.g. multiple choice tests that have "wrong" answers that suggest conceptual understanding even if there is a calculation error.)


I don't think standardized testing has that much impact on how people think. I suppose test prep teaching is less likely to break people out of lazy thinking, but I don't think it inculcates it.


Are you blaming the test makers here?


Most basically, a school that frequently teaches useful-but-not-tested material will, all else being equal, produce lower test scores than a school that sticks rigidly to the tested material.

I'm not sure this is "gaming", proper; but if this focus on the tested material prevents a teacher from enthusiastically expounding on something (s)he thinks is especially fascinating, I'd count that as a loss. Because having enthusiastic teachers is great.

(Of course, standardized testing has benefits, too - I'm not sufficiently informed on American education to have an overall opinion. I just wanted to point out that there are ways to test better that don't improve education.)


If a teacher enthusiastically expounds upon football, string theory or creationism, and fails to teach reading comprehension, they will indeed suffer on the tests.

This doesn't seem like a bad thing. Deciding what needs to be taught is the job of the political system, not the teachers.


Ignoring the obvious hyperbole of your first sentence, sure politics essentially sets the curriculum (for better or for worse). That doesn't excuse the political system also getting in the way of teaching it.

Mercifully in Australia we don't have standardized testing every year (yet), but enough importance is tied to the tests that do take place that a disproportionate amount of time is spent preparing kids for the style of tests administered, regardless of any gaming of the system, reducing the time spent on the rest of the curriculum.

I know we've argued education before and so I'm not expecting a hallelujah moment, but I figured it was a point that should also be made.


Policymakers decided that kids should be taught a variety of subjects - state graduation requirements include science, social studies, arts and languages. However, standardized testing focuses on math and language arts. So you have the phenomenon of art teachers or history teachers being ordered to teach math or reading in order to boost test scores.


The math and reading requirements are hardly unreachable. If history teachers are trying to teach history to students who can hardly read, they're not going to get very far. They should push back against the language arts teachers to do their jobs.


If we put history/social studies/etc on the test, I take it you'll then withdraw your objection?


Probably not (I'm not opposed to standardized tests, FWIW). Schools need to teach art in art class, history in history class, &c. If lying about curricula to squeeze in more test prep doesn't count as "cheating", it's hard to imagine what could.


...and restricting what is taught to what can be measured is a bad idea. As is putting so much emphasis on your measurements (and little enough work into creating them) that teachers have an incentive to teach the content on the test rather than the full breadth of the subject.

Most of my math classes growing up ended with a week or two of "here's how what you just learned applies in the real world / future classes". It was one of the few redeeming aspects of my early math education, and is probably one of the first things to get cut when schools want to beef up test scores.


If a maths teacher wants to teach category theory, or algorithmic analysis (things which can be both interesting and relevant to a someone growing up), they can't.

Is that a better use case for you?


The state legislature and federal government have decided that arithmetic is more useful than category theory. I agree with them completely, and I'm one of those rare people who is extremely sympathetic to category theory.

So yes, I think tests are doing the right thing here - making sure the teacher does his job before he goes off on random tangents.


By necessity, any test can realistically test only a subset of a student's knowledge. If the patterns that the tested subset follows are easily predictable or have a simpler structure than the actual knowledge, you can get better performance by teaching those patterns than by teaching the actual skills.

Multiple choice tests are particularly egregious examples, as for them you only have to be able to verify an answer instead of having to derive the answer.

Standardized tests are rife with multiple choice tests and questions that follow predictable patterns.


Good test design is hard, especially for an amateur. But it seems the remedy ought to be "have better tests" instead of "don't test."

There are good tests out there; the AP tests have a significant multiple-choice component that resists simple trickery.


> But it seems the remedy ought to be "have better tests" instead of "don't test."

Nobody is saying "don't test". The only place that I know of that doesn't test in the traditional sense are Waldorf schools, and even they still evaluate their students.

Concerns are being raised about standardized testing in a NCLB-influenced environment, both in how that limits test design, tests for the wrong things, and how this kind of testing creates the wrong incentives.

> the AP tests have a significant multiple-choice component that resists simple trickery.

It isn't just about trickery. I remember encountering a pumping lemma question during the GRE that was simply easier to answer in multiple choice form because I didn't have to prove the correctness of the right answer, but only the incorrectness of the wrong ones (and even there I didn't have to work out the fiddly details, I just needed a modest amount of confidence).


You can cut the Gordian knot by simply having the teachers correct enough errors on enough tests--that has been done in the Washington, DC, area. Or you can get a sneak preview of the test and drill the kids on that for a few days.


Did you read the article? The entire thing is about a school that for years did things like have teachers change test answers after the fact in order to increase their overall test scores. That's what I mean by gaming statistics.

edit: clearly I should have chosen a different word. I think you're all focusing on one specific word I used, and not on the actual argument I'm making, which is that if your model of assessment depends on a single Big Important Number, people will find ways to make that number what they need it to be.


That's outright cheating and fraud. Any test can be cheated if you look at the answers beforehand. "Gaming" means figuring out flaws in the way it's tested and then doing lots of that. In your lines-of-code-added metric, "gaming" means adding and removing lots of code. "cheating" means hacking the database with results and changing the values.


If "game" simply means "cheat", the solution is simple - third party test administration. I thought you meant they do something legal other than education to make the scores go up.


That's not gaming; it's cheating. No objective evaluation system could be immune to that.


Arrange to get a few minutes alone with the tests, correct a few answers on your worst performing students tests, or just swap out their answer sheets with improved answers.

Freakanomics talked about this in regard to Chicago public schools merit pay system.


>>easily gamed statistics.

Nope. If they were easily gamed Park would have survived? The failed at teaching to the test and had the cheat the old fashioned way.


Managing by numbers is bad. I once had a boss look over the commit count to the source code repo to measure effectiveness.

However, software bosses have another avenue: they can just hire and fire based on how well they think people are performing. They don't need to set up spreadsheets or anything to "prove" who isn't doing their job. And the engineer who has been told to move on can move on, because there isn't just one employer in town, even outside of the top-5 cities. And the manager has a reason to care about properly evaluating his reports.

This attempt to measure educational performance by numbers, for all that it is screwed up, has risen as a desperate attempt for the people paying the bills to feel like they have some kind of accountability into the system they are paying for.


This is why I don't believe in the idea that "more money is needed for education". The system is obviously extremely bloated, and needs to be revamped before we even begin to think about giving them more money. It's our tax money after all. We shouldn't just throw money at anyone who screams "we need more money to do better".

We need to first look at what can be changed so more money isn't needed. when all of that has been evaluated and the changes made, then we can start thinking about whether we need increased education budgets or not to increase performance.


With the utmost sincerity I wish you the best of luck with that. We've recently had two in-depth studies here in Australia on resourcing for schools, and neither have made it past the politicians without getting butchered.

In Western Australia we've had an outright rejection of federal funding for one study (Gonski) and lip service paid to the second (Teese) resulting in slashes to funding for language studies, music, the arts and assistance for students with special needs (probably more, that's what I know of directly).

If there's some strategy to do more with less here, the government is playing it so close to their chest they're not letting those of us in schools know about it.


My understanding (from a close friend who is a teacher) is that these metrics are difficult to implement for the more abstract disciplines such as the arts. These, then, are being eliminated from curricula since they are difficult to measure. This may not initially appear to be an issue but the article itself illuminates a greater need for holistic perspectives on education. Putting educational disciplines in silos is damaging the experience (can't read a word problem for math) and phasing out arts may be stunting the ability to learn.


I think the question is whether the intervention from Washington actually made things better.


In Atlanta's case, yes.

It revealed just how bad education was and is in Atlanta and most likely most city schools. So bad that instead of removing bad teachers and administrators they simply cheated.

The sad part is that when attempts are made at fixing these problems all that is thrown back in the face of reformers are the accusations of racism and bigotry.

States should take control of all school systems within their borders and there should be no such thing as teacher's unions. Nepotism and union thuggery have doomed more children to middling educations if any than racism or bigotry.

NCLB like the follow ups by the current administration were handcuffed attempts to fix a broken system. The handcuffs were that you could not remove unions over teachers and you could not interfere in certain districts because of race


>Nepotism and union thuggery have doomed more children to middling educations if any than racism or bigotry.

Saying this shows an ignorance of the history of public education in the US. I don't think you're equipped to judge whether accusations of racism aimed at "reformers" are accurate.


I can't address the entire parent post, but I can address judging the current state of accusations of racism aimed at reformers in public schools, I was able to view it firsthand at a Philadelphia public school for years on end, where ANY data on an education gap (a widening one), both racial or economically divided, would be met with "you clearly hate black people", regardless of if that has any bearing on the discussion. This occurred during school board, PTO, UPG, and student teacher meetings. It was appalling to me how much racism/classism was thrown around as a reason to not apply any sort of response to the current broken state of education, and for how appalling it was, it was equally effective at stopping change. So in this at least, there is really no question as to the accuracy of whether these things occur and harm the students, for me. They do occur, they do harm students, and like other deep set prejudices and dogmatic belief, I have no idea where to punch that glacier to address the problem


Indeed, when the stats themselves say that between 1% to 14% of the students' mark was determined by the quality of the teacher. One has to wonder if as much time and effort was put into the other 86%. It brings back to mind a similarly minded statement made by my Uni stats professor; make sure you're measuring what you think you're measuring.


It seems very useful to know how much of the students' performance is up to the teacher.

If very little, than we don't need to worry about quality teachers, and just get the minimum level necessary to keep the peace in the classroom.

If a lot, then we should worry a lot about teacher quality, and work hard to make sure that we are only recruiting and keeping very effective teachers.


I know we love to harp on about teacher quality, but there are plenty of other factors that are just as important like access to the right learning programs, classroom mix and so on.

As a teacher I'll be the first to admit that for some students about the best we can hope for is to keep the peace until the mature or find something compelling that gives them a reason to succeed.

It's not as simple as "all teachers make $difference%".


I admit that I said that comment from a place of annoyance: during pay analysis, teacher quality matter a lot, and during results analysis, teacher quality doesn't matter.

But as you point out it's not uniform. It's reasonable that teachers make a big difference in some scenarios and not in others.


I guess the deeper question is, what is it what we expect schools to do for our children? Personally I think a profound focus on scoring well on test is shortsighted. while I do think it is important to learn basic math and languages skills I think it is equally important to learn to think and learn to learn. For some reason children are treated like they are similar to one and other while later in live you are able to choose different types of schools with different interest and different ways of learning. While I don't think a child should make profound live choices the idea that every child learns the same way and has the same background is just wrong and by doing so children will be left behind


I guess the deeper question is, what is it what we expect schools to do for our children?

Ask ten people and you'll get eleven different answers. Schools serve a lot of different masters, and also are used as proxy battlegrounds for both sides of a culture war.


Infinite sides of the infinite culture wars.


I was born and raised in Atlanta, Marietta specifically. It is a wealthy area with some of the best public schools in Georgia. I went to Dickerson Middle School. The vast majority of my peers had 2 parent homes. Both parents worked and could afford a babysitter/nanny, or one parent's income was enough for the other to stay home. The area is incredibly safe. I rode my bike to school.

At Parks, as this article says, the majority of students have a single parent household, with drug abuse problems, and extreme poverty. 2 of Parks middle school students were raped in a single school year.

Comparing Dickerson's test scores to Parks's test scores is insane. Should Parks, and schools like it, be held to certain standards? Yes. Absolutely. But excellence in education is affected by far more factors than the quality of the school and its teachers. The article discusses how Lewis, a teacher, was operating almost as a social worker for many of these kids (doing laundry, driving them home at night, etc).

The solution isn't "throw more money at the school" or "hold them to a standard test metric." Its more complicated than you think. Education, crime, employment, these things are linked. We can't address these in isolation.


Education, crime, employment, these things are linked.

For an alternate perspective: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2014/06/25/smartest-kids-... . The book is worth reading too.

Also: http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2014/05/17/why-cant-we-solve-p... .


I had an conversation with a just-retired teacher this weekend. In addition to the days (a week?) of testing the students at her school had to endure, they were a site for testing a new test and so were subjected to another week of testing.

It's possible for students to opt-out of standardized testing but of course the school is required to have a very high participation rate (90+%?) or else they'll be penalized. One of the teachers had been informing students of their right to opt-out and making the necessary forms available to them.

As soon as the administration saw a number of students opting out, they brought them in one-by-one and interrogated them as to which of their teachers was doing this. He was admonished (or worse).

The whole system of criteria and incentives are so broken. This is analytics and big-data gone awry. "You can't improve what you don't measure," sure, but the wrong things are being measured and the incentives are wrong and the consequences backwards. Sigh.


When you start measuring things in education, what you get collapses onto what you are measuring, like a wave function collapsing in quantum mechanics. Everything else goes out the window.

In the UK, we have a Parliamentary Committee for Education, the leader of which is Graham Stuart, a Conservative MP who has shown on a number of occasions that he is prepared to challenge the education minister, Michael Gove, when the committee sees an issue developing.

One morning on the radio he said something like 'if you set targets for schools, don't be surprised if schools do what they have to do to achieve the targets'. I didn't have time to get the quote down verbatim.

In the UK context this particular incident would be impossible for a variety of reasons, but we do see very heavy resources being concentrated on students expected to get a C (pass) on GCSE exams to the detriment (arguably) of weaker students and students at the top of the ability range. Triage may help manage casualties on a battle field but it is not so good for school children.

Most schools call the students they focus on 'DtoC' students. Gove is trying to hack the measurement system to remove the incentives for schools doing this. Same as OA, it might be better to have a system where percentage pass scores are not mechanistically used in this way.

I don't know what the answer is!


I posted a link to actual tests/curricula elsewhere in the thread. Please be specific - what is missing?

Your complaint that UK schools maximize the number of passing students is a complaint about the particular educational goal, not testing.


My understanding of the OA is that the school where the teacher cheated was under threat of closure unless test scores reached some arbitrary percentage. The existence of tests themselves is not the issue as you say.

Meta: could downvoters engage more?


> "You can't improve what you don't measure," sure, but the wrong things are being measured and the incentives are wrong and the consequences backwards.

A direct corollary: you get what you measure. Nothing more, and nothing less.

In education and humans therein lies the problem. When all effort is expended towards hitting metrics, only the chosen metrics will be improved. Everything else is left to degrade. If you add the incentives to punish for not hitting the targets, of course you get cheating. A little at first, but when the improved goals are now set based on false data, you encourage a more systematic cheating.

One aspect of problem has been already witnessed in Finland, the country of supposedly superior education system. University staff are well aware of this but can do nothing about it. If I had to guess, I would say that the administators are simply divorced from reality.

I don't know if there is much cheating going on. We may not be that far down in the drain; what we do have, is a constant pressure to over-achieve. There are teachers and professors who all say same the same thing.

I wonder what happens when the researchers and teachers will get punished for not meeting their >100% performance targets year-over-year.


"I wonder what happens when the researchers and teachers will get punished for not meeting their >100% performance targets year-over-year."

This is not considered a bug in the system, if we graduate more of them than we need, and as seen in the article cronyism and gang/mafia mentality is rampant.

So in a system built on cheating, the "cooperative" will have their performance targets fixed, and the "non-team players" will be removed.

Superficially the goal of standardized testing is to produce a populace thats real good at taking standardized tests, which is of course a totally useless goal, but its easy to measure. Slightly deeper, the goal of standardized testing is to remove autonomy from teachers as a punishment by forcing them to teach to the test. A bit deeper and the purpose of standardized testing is to encourage corruption. If one party has a political goal of fighting the teachers union, what better long term plan than to force them all to become thugs or leave? The other party likes it also, because who doesn't want an army of thugs?

Nobody wants the kids to learn anything, unfortunately. Sometimes it happens accidentally, but it doesn't matter.


Maybe broader tests with lower passing scores and weighted questions in very targeted areas?


> This is analytics and big-data gone awry. "You can't improve what you don't measure," sure, but the wrong things are being measured and the incentives are wrong and the consequences backwards. Sigh.

This works well when it's factory spitting out Chevy sedans. You measure the parts, if they don't fit you fix them or replace them.

But it can't work for people. Human beings are not cogs in a machine. They're not easily measured, and the act of measuring can actually change the values... for the worse.

It's fucking sick.


Heh. I've heard from other teachers that we have the opposite issue: some schools encouraging students who will perform poorly to be absent whenever testing happens. (Australia, not US, so not sure how you lot handle absentees for testing purposes.)


Should be titled:

A Middle-School Cheating Scandal Raises Questions About the Effectiveness of Schools

It appears that there was nothing teachers could do to raise students to the level of standardize tests. With schools that are unable to perform their education task, one wonders why we have them in the first place.

One potential solution to these problems is to aggressively segment students into winning and loosing groups based on academic performance. Although doing so has often been met with accusation of racism.


We segment our students by real estate into winning and losing groups based on the assumption that parental income = academic performance. The primary result of NCLB is proving this has a rather intense correlation.

Locally our housing is hyper segregated (despite not being in the South) so naturally our schools are also racially segregated, as are our test results.

Racial income inequality is not likely to be solved by metric data worship, although that does act as an effective distractor from the root cause(s).


Big cities are an exception to this as it is not possible to segment further. Examples, such as Chicago or Buffalo New York come to mind where some of the best and worst schools in America exist in the same school district. Opening the avenues between these schools is often met with strong opposition, often from the underprivileged minority groups that would most benefit. Programs that reach out to the community as a whole but fail to represent that community's racial statistics are such targets.

When I was a kid our school admissions was on a lottery system where 70% of the school was admitted, but due to low parent involvement African Americans were made up a few dozen percentage points lower in neighboring schools. They made a majority although not a super-majority. I wondered what the so-called 'community leaders' that would protest this state of affairs hand in mind for the 40% of their skin color.


No, the article suggests that teachers can't raise scores in heavily impoverished unstable areas fast enough to meet demands. That's a much narrower thing than "schools are useless"


> With schools that are unable to perform their education task, one wonders why we have them in the first place.

> One potential solution to these problems is to aggressively segment students into winning and loosing groups based on academic performance. Although doing so has often been met with accusation of racism.

Why stop there? Let's just round up all the kids who can't do Math and just send them to labor camps. Might as well prepare them for what they'll be good for from an early age!

If you read the article, you'll see that the school in question was, in fact, doing extremely well when compared to other schools in the area, before the cheating even began. The use of metrics, as well as the fact that they were arbitrarily or unrealistically set resulted in the disaster (or so argues the author)


Yeah, the harsh reality of the situation is that instead of "no child left behind" we really do need "leave about a fifth of the children behind." At least in terms of academic test performance. I'm sure they can benefit from education in other ways.


This is a complicated issue, of course, but here are a few basics to guide the conversation:

1. When passing out tax dollars, the tax payers want the recipients to be accountable. That's true even if the accountability is misguided, partial, biased, creates some bad incentives, etc. Saying "we want tax dollars to educate children, but we don't want any responsibility to show you results" is just not a sustainable situation.

2. The more remote the taxpayers are, the more they will rely on cold, objective numbers to satisfy the accountability. A local community knows more about how its students are doing and whether the school is accomplishing its goals and will rely less on the numbers. Federal dollars being sent thousands of miles away will come along with standardized tests, because the taxpayers have no other way to judge whether their money is accomplishing anything.

3. Some subjects are more easily tested objectively than others, e.g. arithmetic tests are more accurate than creative writing tests.

4. People tend to optimize more for things that can be objectively measured, e.g. money over happiness; or math over painting; or horsepower over interior comforts.

5. Tests are most effective when they don't directly influence the test-takers. For instance, a street survey about who can name the 9 justices on the Supreme Court might tell us quite a bit about the knowledge of average citizens about government. But if we keep asking the same question again and again all over the place, people will learn the answer to that single question, making the results look better. But the citizen's knowledge about government hasn't really changed much.


@dang/mods could you update the url with full page view:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2014/07/21/140721fa_fact_...

Thanks.


As a father of two young children, the decision to homeschool looks better every day.


The issues in this article go for beyond NCLB and some cheating. Parks was in a district in which students came from incredibly difficult home situations. No school or teacher or test was going to change that. That may not be your situation. Most likely, it ISN'T your situation.

There are probably other reasons why you chose homeschool (there are some very bad reasons people choose to homeschool their kids, and few good ones), but you shouldn't use this one.


No, the implication is that people like me are supposed to school-shop by being rich enough to get jobs and homes in a "good" school district.

They'll still teach to the same tests (don't want to lose status). It's just that the children are mostly untraumatized enough to pass those for them, and past that any educational efforts are superficial and shallow.

That sounds like just as bad an outcome to me as if they were rotting in some inner city hellhole.


I will have to choose school soon for my son, and seems like my choice is private or homeschooling.


I'm surprised there's anti-homeschool sentiment here on HN were we (supposedly) value learning to think for ourselves, doing what we're passionate about, having side-projects, and thinking differently.


I personally am not against anti-homeschool in principle. However, there are some people that choose homeschool for very bad reasons, usually rooted in certain religious beliefs and fear of exposing children to 'corrupting' ideas. This segment makes up a significant portion of the homeschooling population (or roughly ~40%). Some of my friends went through it. It's not pretty.


Do it. Connect with other families to share educational experiences and social time with too.


Don't. Are you in dysfunctional intercity district? If you don't like the schooling can you move a few miles to a better school?


The essential problem is the frankly insane practice of funding schools from local property taxes. Then being surprised when the poor schools are terrible. Then attempting to fix it with NCLB and Common Core and berating teachers and so forth, as if desperately trying to avoid the root cause of the problem.


One state has not had that frankly insane practice for more than two decades. I have seen some examples of helpful reforms where I live. Minnesota, where I now live and where I grew up, has had largely equal per-capita funding for public school pupils statewide since the 1970s. The state law change that made most school funding come from general state appropriations rather than from local property taxes was called the "Minnesota miracle."

http://www.mnhs.org/library/tips/history_topics/18public.htm...

Today most funding for schools is distributed by the state government on a per-pupil enrollment basis.

http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/mnschfin.pdf

http://education.state.mn.us/MDE/SchSup/SchFin/index.html

The funding reform in the 1970s was followed up by two further reforms in the 1980s. First, the former compulsory instruction statute in Minnesota was ruled unconstitutional in a court case involving a homeschooling family, and a new compulsory instruction statute explicitly allows more nonpublic school alternatives for families who seek those. Second, the Legislature, pushed by the then Governor, set up statewide open enrollment

http://education.state.mn.us/MDE/StuSuc/EnrollChoice/index.h...

and the opportunity for advanced learners to attend up to two years of college while still high school students on the state's dime.

http://education.state.mn.us/MDE/StuSuc/CollReadi/PSEO/index...

And Minnesota also has the oldest charter school statute in the United States.

http://www.amazon.com/Zero-Chance-Passage-Pioneering-Charter...

Parents in Minnesota now have more power to shop than parents in most states. That gets closer to the ideal of detecting the optimum education environment for each student (by parents observing what works for each of their differing children) and giving it to them by open-enrolling in another school district (my school district has inbound open-enrollment students from forty-one other school districts of residence) or by homeschooling, or by postsecondary study at high school age, or by exercising other choices.

The educational results of Minnesota schools are well above the meager results of most United States schools, and almost competitive (but not fully competitive) with the better schools in the newly industrialized countries of east Asia and southeast Asia. It's a start. More choices would be even better.


Excellent resources.

School districts in MN have problems too, and have occasionally tried things that didn't work:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profile_of_Learning

But the state and local districts have been making worthy efforts to stay ahead of the educational challenges they face, for the 34 years I've lived in the state.

As a parent, I can confirm that open enrollment is hugely important.

And let's not forget MECC :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MECC


Money is irrelevant. Many of the worst schools in America are the most lavishly funded.


Your statement is an exaggeration, but the essential point is correct that many American school systems get poor results for the dollars they spend. Here is data on the issue:

http://educationnext.org/when-the-best-is-mediocre/


I'm sure the graph is not strictly monotonic. But are you actually claiming the curve isn't that way?


I find this very hard to believe - are there data available on the correlation between funding and school performance? Also, how long has this correlation occurred?


Living in NOVA it's hard to ignore the issues of DC public schools. A quick search gives this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/05/23/t...

And googling "DC public school spending" gives a figure closer to 29K per student.


The article you link indeed shows there's surprising spending levels in some states but this doesn't quite link spending to school performance.

I'm only making this statement because it's sometimes easy to cite a correlation to support a point when there's no causal relationship. Thus, irrespective of how much a school spends per-pupil, it's critical to relate spending to educational outcomes. You could imagine a case, for example, where schools on the East Coast necessarily spend more than schools on the West Coast to maintain old buildings (I'm not saying this is the case, of course).


Questions about "No Child Left Behind" exist irrespective of cheating scandals.


One thing the SAT gets right, you have to go to an independent location for the testing.


Shifting the blame for low scores onto the teachers SUCKS.

Teachers are in no position at all to help their students when their parents are too damn poor or high to ensure an environment in which their children can actually learn.


Ok, so what is your suggestion for making the parents less poor or less high? General and baseless comments like these do not contribute positively to the collective conversation.


Choose another metric to compare schools/teachers (next to impossible), or factor in the "poorness" of the students/their parents. E.g. a rich, clean white hood gets higher thresholds for A than a poor black hood filled with junkies and violence.

This is not perfect either, but a rich/poor offset allows for a far better comparison.



Sweet! An article from the future.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: