Many vaccines aren't vegan-friendly (they're often grown in eggs), and pretty much all of them go through animal testing stages during clinic trials. It's not at all surprising that vegans would be anti-vax.
From discussions with vegans I've known, the objection to eggs and dairy is largely based on the (mis) treatment of the animals as part of industrial scale production. It's not (usually) a mystical belief about the sanctity of some life essence - more about observable apparent suffering.
Unless carefully managed, a vegan diet has a chance of lacking some critical nutrients for the development of young children. I think a vitamin B12 deficiency is common.
Meat/fish and byproducts are generally considered a "quick fix" for a great many dietary issues. Giving a baby something with meat in it once a week when they start feeding, once a month after 2 years (or more often) will fix most diets. Any real vegan diet will need to consider a great many factors.
Even vegan diets that aren't going to kill you in the long term are still going to cause problems. For example, a vegan diet with >60% fruit (or fruit and grains), will cause amino acid shortages. Too little fruit, of course, causes Vitamin C shortages.
Luckily it's easy to fool yourself into eating meat. Many forms of candy, for example, are meat byproducts. So is, of course, a latte.
> Giving a baby something with meat in it once a week when they start feeding, once a month after 2 years (or more often) will fix most diets.
That's a pretty exceptional claim, that's not something I believe without a source.
> For example, a vegan diet with >60% fruit (or fruit and grains), will cause amino acid shortages. Too little fruit, of course, causes Vitamin C shortages.
And a meat based diet that doesn't include fruit, or very little has issues too.
How is milk from a breast of a human vegan?
Is there a definition of veganism that says an animal product that was given with consent is considered vegan?
There are a few different definitions of veganism, the word itself isn't very old and has often been used to describe not just the a plant-based diet, or abstaining from all animal products, but the philosophy behind it.
This is one of the reasons why currently "plant-based diet" is gaining traction, to take the emphasis off the word vegan because it's been connected to the animal rights and ethics of the vegan movement. [1]
> " I taught cooking classes for the national non-profit, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, and during that time, the phrase "plant-based diet" came to be used as a euphemism for vegan eating, or "the 'v' word." It was developed to take the emphasis off the word vegan, because some associated it with being too extreme a position, sometimes based exclusively in animal rights versus a health rationale."
I think it's easy to argue that, specifically, milk from the breast of your mother, as an infant, is not in conflict with any possible interpretation of veganism. It's of course not plant-based, but it is a very special case, as essentially as an infant you are not entirely a separate entity from your mother, even after birth.
B12 supplementation is recommended for a vegan diet at any age. Besides that, I'm not sure what you mean by careful management. Eating a normal varied diet where the proteins come from plant sources gets you covered.
Yet on the page strictly about babies and children, the recommendation is to "[use] a moderate amount of poultry meat and some red meat as a source of protein. [...] Eating fish two to three times a week is recommended for the whole family."
There's far too many stories of babies dying of malnutrition on vegan diets. While it's possible to make them healthier for them, let's not go saying it's recommended, just like children can survive on crappy junk food (and plenty of them sadly have to), provided it's fortified with nutrients for them. There's a difference between surviving and thriving.
That site is a bit confusingly laid out; the page I linked to introduces the vegan diet for all age groups, while the part you quoted concerns the recommendations for the omnivore diet. In the material that maternity clinics hand out, the equivalent vegan recommendation for first solid proteins are tofu and red lentils. The linked full set of recommendations also covers more specifics for infants and toddlers: https://www.julkari.fi/handle/10024/137770
Basically the only exception is infant formula, unless the child has a diagnosed milk allergy. There's also a general recommendation against restricted, e.g. macrobiotic and raw diets.
> There's a difference between surviving and thriving.
And you have given no proof that a child can't thrive on a vegan diet. Surely it's not something a public health authority recommends, because people generally aren't vegan.
I can't find any study supporting that a vegan diet for infants and children can't be as healthy as a non-vegan diet. There are always outliers, but you also have children on non-vegan diets that are missing vitamins and nutrients.
That very same link states that "a carefully composed vegan diet" can be beneficial. Thats my point -- with a vegan diet you have to be much more conscientious about nutrition. Many people are not. With your average healthy omnivorous diet, you rarely have any significant nutrient deficiencies that you have to worry about. Said diet ends up being simpler to implement in practice. That's what I mean by careful management; A healthy vegan diet for children is not impossible, but it takes more effort.
You say "much more", but the models of healthy eating don't really differ that much in practice. Both prescribe a balanced plate with carbs, proteins, and "other" vegetables. The omnivore model calls for half the plate being vegetables, while the vegan plate is divided into equal thirds.
That of course being the rule of thumb, and obviously people don't necessarily build every meal to exactly that pattern. A pizza night every now and then is okay too.
> rarely have any significant nutrient deficiencies
People in the Nordics are usually already supplementing at least vitamin D due to lack of sunlight, and often iodine due to a lack of it in the soil. So in this context, switching to a combined vegan supplement that includes those as well as B12 is a relatively small change.
My ex had the same issue while on a vegan diet - and she was an adult. Random dizzy spells and faintness to the point of almost passing out.
It boggles my mind anyone would ascribe to a diet that literally requires vitamin supplements through artificial means in order to be complete. And those are just the obvious deficiencies.
Vitamin B12 is made by bacteria, it's in all dirt, and untreated water. You absorb it through your skin. It's pretty easy to see how it wasn't long ago that we would be having an abundance of vitamin b12 from everywhere.
Cows don't make it, they eat it in soil. Which, actually, because most of them are factory farmed, they are fed the supplement. Nothing natural about that; in fact, you're just skipping the middle-man and cruetly.
"But I only eat grass-grazed happy cows!" Good for you! Now how about a solution that can work for everyone.
You want to know what the real next pandemic is. It's going to come from the unbelievable abuse of antibiotics the meat industry is responsible for. Medicine will be set back a century.
> It boggles my mind anyone would ascribe to a diet that literally requires vitamin supplements through artificial means in order to be complete.
I used to think that, but at some point I thought: what's the big deal? If you're still eating healthy, still eating tasty food, and you just also consume a pill or two every day, is that really so bad, or does it just feel "wrong"?
> It boggles my mind anyone would ascribe to a diet that literally requires vitamin supplements through artificial means in order to be complete.
Most non vegans also get their B12 through supplementation. It just is fed to animals directly or indirectly as cobalt supplement.
> Most forages and feedstuffs fed to dairy and beef animals do not contain adequate quantities of cobalt to support the rumen and animal requirements. Consequently, supplemental cobalt must be added to beef and dairy rations. [1]
There's a mosque around the corner where I live. I see old people go in and out, hardly any teenagers. Just like in the church to which my parents-in-law once brought us.
How many of those hasidic jews' 4.1 children keep the faith, and how many get a career instead? 0.5, 1.5, 2.5, 3.5? If it's 3.5 I'll have to ask why they succeed so well.
"Faith" is a big word, but for many/most haredi people "community" is the more operative term. Leaving a sect means becoming an outsider. All their family and friend relationships are insider-based. Regardless of the severity of luteral shunning practices, the nature or haredi lifestyle makes these aspects severe regardless. There's a lot of variance between communities though.
In any case, people do leave. Often, it's relatively early in life. This is why haredi communities are so leery of military service, college lifestyles and such.
People also join. A lot of Chabad adjacent communities are largely converts and 2nd generation members.
I would also emphasize that lifestyle, community, belonging, mission and such tend to play as big a role as belief in convincing converts.
Judaism doesn't always emphasize belief in its definition of "faith." At least, far less than Christianity and Islam. This a philosophical tradition going way back. Faithfulness and even spirituality are often seen as concerning practice (ritual, but also moral) moreso than concerning faith.
Belief follows practice, and if it doesn't... at least you have practice. The Christian Brothers pinched this line from an old rabbi.
Faith isn't quite the right word for what I mean, but community isn't either. The particular set of opinions or practices that have the practical effect of keeping the parents (and some grown-up children) separated from the wider society. (The concrete practical effect mentioned upthread was being vaccinated.)
They succeed in part by insulating their children from Western culture (no TV, no Internet, little interaction with outsiders), and by giving them very little in terms of secular education, so that getting a career is not really an option for most.
Unfortunately, for the ultra orthodox, yes. The parliamentary system is a majority coalition, and more often than not, the ultra orthodox parties are the kingmakers, so they get a lot more influence than one would expect.
Specifically, they are exempt from the standard Israeli STEM + foreign language curriculum (which is quite comprehensive - to graduate highschool, you need passing grades in standardized tests that includes -- among other things -- English, Math, at least one of biology/physics/chemistry, literature, history, Hebrew, sometimes bible studies -- depends on the government at the time). You have to have 20 credits among these - at least 3 in English, at least 3 in Math, and there are more requirements).
About 10 years ago, there was a government they were not part of, and this exemption was removed ; but the following cycle, they were kingmakers again and it got reinstated.
Edit: Added some details about the Israeli curriculum.
Do enough medicine and you'll see just how wrong this is. Every medical issue leaves damage on your body. Mostly very small. Even fractures, the example often given, yes, a broken bone grows back stronger ... and less flexible, more brittle and heavier, more calcified, with less blood going through it a fact it will not cease to remind you off once you turn 55 or so.
Not to be misunderstood, that Nietzsche quote was a sarcastic comment on some strange lines of thought one can find in the anti-vaccination fringes.
Another one is 'God wills it' and another one is, it's 'natural' or 'pure'.
As an extreme, you can find that strange mix of sentimental almost pseudo-religious nature enthusiasm, magical thinking and barbarism in National Socialism.
They were obsessed with the healthy Aryan body, albeit its rulers themselves for the most part not exactly the most outstanding specimens.
Metaphors of health, disease, and parasitism in the racial corpus permeate the whole ideology like metastasized cancer.
Of course, the Reich just needed healthy soldiers, ruthlessly against the weak amongst themselves and the enemy.
I'm not sure that COVID anti-vax is a good example of Darwinism. Out of the 950K deaths from COVID in the US, only 6K are under 30 years old - hence less likely to have reproduced.
I find it disheartening so many people are willing to gloat over fellow humans' deaths, regardless of the reason, some notion of "karma", "Darwinism", etc.
Sympathy for their families. Acknowledgment you don’t know all the circumstances in their life, and we all have varying levels of susceptibility to disinformation.
