As a counter to this I have stopped daily meditation (2 hours a day Vipassana) after about 7 years of practice because I hit a rut where it didn't seem to be improving things. I certainly remained calm through all the years but cannot honestly say that it made me a happier person.
I was certainly content with the results at first but after much serious practice I found it less and less effective. I'd recommend most people to try serious meditation but think that its important to manage expectations - a tiny proportion of Westerners that start with meditation feel enough benefit to continue it for the following years.
In my own experience, Yoga had more noticeable effects and a better 'buzz' - this as someone that also gave up Yoga a few years ago. The advantage of Yoga is that you also feel healthy. I hope fight off my current laziness and restart Yoga again.
I'm still not clear why you stopped though. Was it not enjoyable? You say you remained calm during these 7 years, is that not enough? You say it was less and less effective - effective at what?
Were you seeking something that you eventually felt you couldn't obtain? Did you try other forms of meditation?
Vipassana is certainly not enjoyable. Its hard work. It made me a much calmer person and the effects continue even though I have stopped - so I have no hesitation recommending it to people.
However, over the last few years, I felt it hasn't made me a happier person and that was my main reason for doing it. Two hours a day is also a significant time commitment.
I tried other meditation practices but Vipassana was by far the most deep and effective for me.
In my experience that isn't always true. However, I know some meditators who are very active and multitask very well. Unfortunately, I am not one of them.
From my understanding of Vipassana meditation, it's not about the 'buzz' or feeling happier and more relaxed. Those are side effects. Vipassana is mindfulness meditation. It's about becoming more aware. It's about fully immersing yourself in reality, difficulties and all.
From your phrasing, I assume you're talking about the physical postures (asanas) when you say yoga. The physical postures are a part of yoga, but yoga is a more complete system including meditation and other practices. Of course everyone has their own ideas about what constitutes yoga, if you ask 10 different people, you'll probably get 10 different answers, but I think it's important to understand that yoga is a whole system of interdependent practices designed and tuned over a very long period of time. In my opinion, the meditation practices are the main or major vehicle of yoga with the rest of the practices providing the necessary support to be able to attain a "higher" or "deeper" level of meditation.
That's not to say you can't focus on one part, and if you feel you're benefiting from just the postures, then more power to you and good luck.
My point isn't to say my definition of yoga is the correct view, but I think it's a shame that many people misunderstand yoga as being simply a form of physical postures.
To quote the book (Mindfulness in Plain English) that was earlier recommended in this thread and in the article:
"Meditation is not some mindless formula which gives automatic and predictable results. You can never really predict exactly what will come up in any particular session. It is an investigation and experiment and an adventure every time. In fact, this is so true that when you do reach a feeling of predictability and sameness in your practice, you use that as an indicator. It means that you have gotten off the track somewhere and you are headed for stagnation."
I can't really know if this is the reason why you felt like you had hit a rut - Just had to leave this comment for your consideration :)
Interesting, as I've been doing Vipassana meditation off and on for the past ten years and only really started feeling that I was getting somewhere in the last year. One thing that helped a lot is that I read the book "The Power of Now."
If a person lifted weights for 7 years and never became stronger I would guess he was doing it wrong[lifting too much, lifting too little, not increasing intensity, etc]. If a person meditates for 7 years and can sees no effect...
There's a lot of research results on mindfulness meditation not covered in the WP article, and WP doesn't cover the methodology well.
Baer (2003) is, I think, the most highly cited survey of the theoretical & empirical evidence (not cited by the WP article), and has a good historical overview of research. The conclusion states that effects are comparable for depressive patients to cognitive behavioural therapy, whose effectiveness as a therapy for depression is well-established (and incidentally, much more effective than Prozac). The effectiveness for relief of distress from chronic pain is also attested.
Kabat-Zinn, cited by Baer, is probably the most accessible scientist writing for a popular audience on this.
The scientific fact is it changes how your brain works, it's obvious on a brain scanner. That's when they scanned experienced monks, champion meditators.
A better life is something else though, hard to quantify.
I realize that. It's very common, especially for people who do not have a teacher/community to guide them. papaf didn't give many details so I can't really say much more.
One thing that threw me a little when I read Mindfulness in Plain English the first time was how they describe following your breathing in Vipassana.
There are a number of methods people use including the one mentioned in the book, observing the breath at the nostrils, and any of them are ok. I personally find the chest and throat works best for me.
Another thing I found hugely helpful getting started (other than finding a sangha) was getting a sense of body. When you start to sit just feel your body, is it heavy, energetic, etc. Feel places your body is touching, the floor, the chair, etc and then slowly focus in on your breath.
A final piece of advice, try not to meditate on pain if you can help it. When you first start out sitting will probably hurt (that doesn't mean you should fidget or ignore it). However meditating on pain is actually pretty easy. You'll quickly realise that it makes everything else harder to meditate on because it is extremely intense so you less sensitive to other things. The solution is to spend a little time making sure you are sitting right or spending some session in seated meditation.
Contact details are on my profile. Feel free to ask me any questions. I've been practicing Theravada and Vipassana for a while.
First I misread this as "sedated meditation", which had me wondering: Does moderate alcoholic influence impair or improve a meditation session?
I know it may sound weird, but I find it tremendously easier to concentrate on and really understand heavy mathematical material after a glass of whisky or two.
It makes it a lot harder, a light dusting of caffeine can be helpful though.
The purpose of vipassana meditation is "awareness" and alcohol really gets in the way of that because it makes it hard to focus. This kind of meditation is an activity.
That book is heavy with ill-defined jargon. I did try following some of its advice. The book helped me understand precisely what I don't like about Buddhism - that the right direction is always to less attachment and striving. I only agree that it's sometimes the right direction.
If you're set on experimenting with this sort of meditation practice, then I suppose you have to put up with a text like this (since it would be hard to find a good teacher as a novice).
Buddhism makes exceptions for striving for enlightenment, attachment to freedom from suffering, effort in the service of others' happiness, and so forth. I don't find it difficult to conceive of my life and actions in that light (while allowing for a healthy dose of ignorance).
Also, I agree with your first sentence. The language is often circular and muddy, however I still managed to get a lot out of it.
I recently tried Natural Stress Relief (NSR) meditation per Alex Payne's suggestion (http://al3x.net/2010/09/07/startup-health.html). The technique requires carving out around twenty minutes for meditation twice a day (morning and evening). Even with a schedule as flexible as mine (i.e., extremely flexible), I found this virtually impossible to maintain; forty minutes a day may not sound like much, but it is, especially since it has to happen at specific times (before meals, not before bed, etc.). For example, I work much better if I eat within 30 minutes of waking; since (according to NSR) you're not supposed to eat before meditating, that leaves almost no slack in my morning schedule. It's also incredibly easy to forget to meditate until an hour before you have to be somewhere, and then you have to (say) shower, dress, eat, and meditate in order to keep up with the program. (Actually, per the eating rule, you would have to meditate and then shower & eat. And possibly be late to your thing.) And you know how hackers operate on the Maker's Schedule? For me, meditation became one of those things that breaks big chunks of time in two. Not good.
NSR emphasizes the importance of doing two sessions every day. After a couple of weeks on the program, I found that the stress of scheduling the meditation, combined with the stress of missing the occasional session (and hence, horror of horrors, not following the program), completely overwhelmed any stress-relieving benefits from the practice. I abandoned it within a month.
I'm not sharing this experience to show how much meditation sucks; I'm inclined to believe those who say meditation works wonders for them. I'd appreciate some advice from those who have faced and overcome the problems I've described—if anyone has any suggestions, please let me know.
So try once a day? Don't worry so much about the scheduling? Meditate for 20 minutes if you can, 1 minute if that's all you have? It sounds like you got off on the wrong foot. A big part of meditating is learning to accept without judgement, and your post is full of you judging yourself.
Thanks for the advice. I'm not judging myself, I'm judging the system—the NSR manual is stern in its warnings not to deviate from the program. But perhaps a meditation system more flexible than NSR is worth giving a try.
Interesting. I am not familiar with NSR, so I won't speak to it, but the meditation I have learned is much more flexible. There are some links in this thread that would probably prove valuable, but I'd encourage to try and find another practice. I know it helped me to start with other people.
I meditated for the throughout grad school to keep my sanity, but slowly transitioned into running with no music and no talking if I am running in a group as my form of meditation. Basically I combined my mediation time with my running time. It wasn't a conscious change, but I found that actively not thinking during long (13 mile+)runs gave me the mental benefits of meditating (focus, relaxation, spurred creativity) but also gave me the benefits of being an active runner.
You might say how can you focus on not thinking during a rain, well like anything it takes practice--it won't happen over night.
I've attempted running and meditating. So far I haven't figured it out. Lately instead and towards the end of my jog I start walking earlier and meditate during the walk a few minutes before reaching home. Seems easier for now anyway. Building up that capability has also allowed me to have effective de-stress/meditating walking sessions during the working hours.
Just as a quick tip (from someone who has run for about 20 years now)... What "meditating" just means is keeping your focus on a given thought/feeling/whatever... so it truly can be anything... whether it's music, running, a concept like love, the present, etc... you'll get the same root benefit, which is a capability to direct your focus. Obviously the secondary benefits come from the type of meditation you're doing.
When you run, you're usually not trying to focus on a thought in your head (although you can)... usually you're focused on the present experience - the pain, the pleasure, the runners high, the beauty of nature around you, etc.
However, any true runner here will tell you the thing that brings the greatest mental focus is pain. We LOVE pain. The greater the pain, the greater the pleasure. It's odd, but the more pain you experience the more you have to use every ounce of mental energy and focus (i.e. meditation) to overcome it.
That's why my easy runs almost always result in me picking up the pace and murdering the second half as compared to the first... There's something I just love about the pain and focus. Same with why when I've had a stressful day the first thing I want to do is just pound out a blistering pace on a treadmill. The pain gets your focus off everything else.
We runners are insane though, so if you're just into jogging, I'd suggest focusing on the beauty of nature and the present. When I manage to stick to a jog, usually I use it to just reflect on all that is good, thanking God just to be alive, for nature, etc... Helps to have existing cardio training so you can talk to yourself while jogging. If you do push the pace and get tired or feel pain, change it to a repetitive positive thought track like "I can do it" or something. Usually that's kinda in beat to my steps too. Each step closer you ultimately realize you can, in fact, do it! Feels great.
I've been meditating for about the same time according to the instructions at audiodharma. I'm not sure it was _that_ beneficial for me. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Maybe I already acquired some of the world-views he describes. I'm a pretty calm person overall, not driven by emotion very much.
I do feel better about a breakup I had some time ago, but that might simply be because enough time has passed. Anyway in a moment of emotional pain, I concentrate on my breathing and close my eyes which puts me in meditation mode (because I got used to it) and I'm more or less able to remove thoughts about the pain and after I while I start thinking about something different and I do feel better. Sometimes when I really manage to clear my mind and think of nothing, it feels good. Partly because I'm glad I managed to do that :) In general, I must agree that the idea of being mindful of the present moment and not indulging into fantasies about the past or future are a good idea.
But still it's hard to find the 20 minutes a day. I might even say that meditation is a harder test for your willpower than physical excercise. Not to say that the 20 minutes are pretty boring, in the beginning anyway.
EDIT: So I'm a little confused about the benefits of meditation. If anyone more experienced has any tips, please share your ideas. Also, I'm probably going to visit a local buddhism center.
I highly recommend "I Am That" by Nisargadatta Maharaj for anyone who has been meditating for a while and is looking for some orientation in the face of changing reality. "I Am That" is a pure, direct discussion on understanding the nature of reality, with no dogma, no particular Hindu leaning other than some of the language used.
if a discourse is based purely on direct experience (evidence) and not at all on authoritatively settled doctrine, i feel comfortable saying "with no dogma". Maharaj does not refer to any teachings or doctrine other than being instructed by his teacher to let go of all of the illusions attached to the concept "I am".
His questioners in the book do sometimes bring up doctrine from their personal history, but Maharaj always responds directly from experience of reality.
I appreciate that, but my point is more that the assertion that reality has a nature at all is dogmatic. This may be an issue more with your description than the actual teachings, though, which is fine. I'm not saying anything is worthless here. :)
Depends on technically if he just uses Hindu religious concepts to talk about things science knows. Then it's not dogma.
Dogma is a specific set of beliefs about the world. If he's only talking about empirically verifiable things (such as we all must die, etc), then it doesn't necessarily go into dogma.
Actually I also have a question. One of the main reasons that I wish to start meditating is to stop being so negative about BS stuff. I hear things on the news, get cut off in traffic, shit breaks at home, have to pay unexpected bills and I tend to get bitter. I need to just CHILL the F OUT. I am not sure if you can relate to this, but I would be curious to hear anything that might be a motivator to use meditation to decrease negativity.
Boxing as in being repeatedly hit in the head with considerable strength? I have my doubts about this being a healthy lifestyle, but I would be interested to see statistics on longevity among people who were active boxers compared to the rest of population.
I've thought about picking up boxing. It seems like the desire to not be hit in the face would be good motivation to exercise regularly between matches. Like you though, I'm a bit worried about the risk of concussion and having my nose broken, and thus haven't taken the plunge.
I might recommend something like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu instead.
It definitely can cause physical pain, but concussion generally isn't something you worry about with BJJ. That isn't to say that it's impossible, but I do believe the risk is SIGNIFICANTLY lower.
Arguably, BJJ works as a better self-defense art than boxing as well, though for it to be truly effective, you generally pair it with a striking art.
I bike to work, where I sit and focus much of the day. Without the biking, I don't focus as effectively. Without the focusing, the biking life starts to feel unmoored after a while (days or weeks).
I've read so much writing on meditation from Tibetan monks getting MRI scans to finding peace and becoming ready for love in Bali. This one is by far the most compelling argument I've read. And if it can start having an effect in four short weeks, there's no reason not to give it a try.
In my experience people who are very much into meditation are those people who are still seeking the holy grail of how to feel better about life and about themselves, people who have experienced a lot of pain in their lives or periods of depression. Meditation won't solve that.
- In my experience this isn't the case at all. Everyone I know drawn to meditation wasn't due to periods of depression nor pain in their lives but for a variety of other reasons which pretty much all come down for personal development.
- Meditation is used in clinical situations specifically for paid and stress reduction. If you want sources for this there's of citations on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation
Stress reduction? I have a novel idea for stress reduction: Stop stressing. Are you going to die tomorrow? No? Then settle down and stop worrying.
I tell this to everyone I know who "suffers" from stress, and I get some variation on the same response, "it's not that easy for me".
Actually, it is easy. It's 2011. Predators aren't chasing you across the savannah. You're not more than 3 days away from a source of potable water. You're not more than 7 days away from safe, nutritious, calorie dense food. You aren't in immediate danger of being washed away in a flood or dying of heatstroke in the desert or freezing to death.
Realize that your "stress" is so far removed from its genetic origins as to be laughable, realize how good you really have it, and enjoy life.
This is genuinely a terrible approach for anyone suffering from depression/anxiety.
If we could all pull the Louis CK approach ("everything is great but no one is happy") we would. Unfortunately those mired in depression/anxiety cannot see the forest for the trees...otherwise they wouldn't be dealing with their problems.
EDIT: shit, totally meant to downvote you. Enjoy the free karma.
> Realize that your "stress" is so far removed from its genetic origins as to be laughable,
Realize that your "diagnosis" is based on absolute rather than relative terms; it's laughable.
This really isn't the place to try to dissolve a complex psychological subject in to such flippancy as "well life is so much better than back in hunter-gatherer days". If you wish to try to trivialise mental illnesses with unsourced off-the-cuff remarks then take it elsewhere; I've no interest in engaging you in the conversation.
This is going to sound so lame, but... time. My goal was to do it the "right way" and thus I wanted to get through these: http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1762/ before I started. Perhaps I should just read something and jump in....
I like to say that "the biggest barrier to success is failure." In other words, the longer you let a goal go unrealized, the harder it becomes to start because your repeated failures build up into a mental obstacle.
Turning something into a habit takes a lot of repetition so it's better to just get started with a modest objective so you can create a pattern of success.
They're only about an hour to 1.5 hours long, and there's only 6 of them. They are supposed to be spread over a 6 week period. So every week for six weeks, you need to find an hour to spend listening to the talk for that week.
You will be meditating during part of the talk. Other days, you will meditate 20-30 minutes. This is not a large time commitment, and since you're on HN, I'm guessing you'd be able to manage.
Good luck! The first two talks have been pretty nice so far.
there is one point more important than these. when you try to avoid thinking about anything, naturally your /dev/random of a brain will present you with many thoughts inspite of your efforts. the most important point is to not get upset at yourself for not being able to achieve "no mind" instantly. getting upset with yourself leads to a negative feedback loop which completely undermines what you are engaging in.
I find a helpful illustration is a glass of champagne. the bubbles will keep appearing. note them, and allow them to float to the top, and dissipate. do not get upset with yourself when you find that they keep coming.
I don't mind to bash your enthusiasm in any way and I'm happy of your already gained insights, but i think you should know that in the long term it may be counterproductive or even dangerous to practice such kind of meditation without direct guidance from a teacher.
Because it clearly piques the interest of many. You may wish to check up on your definition of fad; it may have grown in popularity recently [1] but a a practice dating back over 1000 years isn't really a fad [2]
This sounds like an excellent use of one's time. I wonder if the health benefits of "meditation" are as significant as those of "hatha yoga", "chiropractic", or any other such Eastern mystic pseudoscientific charlatanism.
Why spend 30 minutes a day volunteering, working, or doing something else to benefit humanity, when you can spend it sitting on a pillow, indulging yourself in an act of inducing the all-powerful placebo effect to convince yourself that all the "stress" of an upper middle class American lifestyle can be magically washed away by breathing and thinking of fat bronze statues and waterfalls?
The whole point about meditation is about self-reflection. Yes, you may argue that comparing meditation with volunteering, the former would seem like a complete waste of time with no benefit to society, but its only because you're looking at it in one-dimension.
If the OP is able to turn his life around, become calmer, more understanding and more compassionate, his actions and interactions in the physical world would have an impact to all those around him and create a multiplier effect that is much more effective in the long run than just pure volunteering.
You're rather judgmental and cynical. Do you have any real experience with meditation? Something tells me you don't. It sure seems like if entire cultures practice it, there must be something to it.
> It sure seems like if entire cultures practice it, there must be something to it.
See also clitoral circumcision, death penalty for apostasy and homosexuality, and other popular cultural practices. There are many things that are widely believed and not true.
The claimed benefits of meditation should be available to scientific scrutiny, so we can actually know one way or the other. No need for faith or appeal to common practice.
Google "meditation research"--people have been doing precisely that over the last few years. Also, please don't lump meditation in with those other practices until you've learned more about it.
You don't need to convince me. I was just pointing out the fallacy in the parent's argument from popularity. I can like meditation without liking bad arguments for it.
I was certainly content with the results at first but after much serious practice I found it less and less effective. I'd recommend most people to try serious meditation but think that its important to manage expectations - a tiny proportion of Westerners that start with meditation feel enough benefit to continue it for the following years.
In my own experience, Yoga had more noticeable effects and a better 'buzz' - this as someone that also gave up Yoga a few years ago. The advantage of Yoga is that you also feel healthy. I hope fight off my current laziness and restart Yoga again.