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Lockitron Announces the $99 Bolt, a Deadbolt You Can Unlock with Your Phone (techcrunch.com)
85 points by paulgerhardt on Jan 27, 2015 | hide | past | favorite | 153 comments



We had a Lockitron on the main door at my previous office. I can't even tell you how many times I got locked out because the device would get stuck (only way to open the door in these cases was with the key, which only two people had).

Their app was the most buggy piece of Android software I've ever had the privilege of using, which is pretty amazing for an app that consists of one single button. It was essentially a webview on the lockitron website, and it would often just display raw-html error messages instead of the lock/unlock button.

The sheer amateurism of this "company" blows my mind. I wouldn't touch this new product with a ten foot pole.


That was the old version. The new version has no mechanical key backup. Most of the other lock manufacturers selling remote-controlled locks have retained a mechanical key. These things run on batteries, after all.

Their site still says "Any smartphone can control Lockitron through our mobile website." What could possibly go wrong with a website that can unlock thousands of doors?

Do they offer "lawful access" to cops? Do you get told when that happens?

Agree on "sheer amateurism". This is version 2 of their product, they've been in business for a while, and they're only taking "pre-orders".


Some electronic locks have a terminal on the outside for a 9V battery in case the internal batteries die. For example: http://www.interlock.com.sg/index.php/products/gateman-digit...

No mechanical key and no emergency battery terminal? Better have another door.


OP mentioned it being an office, so giving every employee a backup mechanical key might not be viable, depending on how paranoid the employer is.


The original Lockitron is one of the worst products I've ever purchased. BTLE doesn't work with my phone (LG G3). Battery lasts about 3 days. Sleeps all the time and doesn't wake up unless I pull a Jean Claude Van Damme-style roundhouse on the door. It's pretty much 100% useless but hey, at least I spent $1,300 replacing my front door half so I could use that.


Matt, sorry that we screwed up with the crowdfunded Lockitron. We're still working to solve the Bluetooth issues on Android which, until very recently, have been inherent in the stack. The frustration of sleeping Lockitron is why we're moving to a separate WiFi component (Bridge). Let me know if there's anything I can do in the meantime (cameron [at]).


Separate wifi component would be great. There needs to be something plugged in all the time. Will you be replacing the crowdfunded one with a better one? (I don't even mind replacing the deadbolt.)

Edit: also I love you guys. You've done a great job keeping people up to date, handling support requests (my emails get answered in hours). I think you'll get there. Just frustrated with the product.


Yes, that's exactly what Lockitron Bolt + Bridge is meant to do. Replacement deadbolt, separate WiFi to help battery life.


I meant would people who bought the crowdfunded one be able to send it in and get the Bolt+Bridge? I'd be ecstatic to do that.


Could you expand on your BT stack problems?


Despite closely following Android docs and published examples we could never get consistent connectivity across most BLE Android handsets under 4.3 and earlier. We tested the Androids against simulated iOS peripherals in order to rule out Lockitron oddities (of which there were plenty).

We pinged the Android BLE folks and only ever received crickets on how to resolve these issues. We're more hopefully based on what we're seeing with 4.4 and 5 but without a full library of handsets the onus of testing which OS/device mix "works" has fallen on our users up until now.


For bystanders wondering, the Android bluetooth stack is apparently deeply problematic. I was trying to debug some issue between my android devices and a music receiver connected to my stereo. In reading up on this, I came across so many people with stories like this.


Yeah, my Nexus 5 has given me nothing but trouble with various bluetooth connections, and it's impossible to troubleshoot.



This isn't unknown or secret information. Lokitron should have been able to identify this before building and either choose another solution or at least set expectations at the start for android users.


The theory that people should know everything before doing anything is a) impossible, and b) is what leads to massive, wasteful waterfall development cycles. The best we can do is to try to identify and mitigate risks as quickly as possible, and to handle responsibly the problems that happen regardless.


I have trouble imagining this sort of mechanical device working reliably. You can hardly compare it to Nest, which really has no moving parts. Our front door has quite a bit of wiggle room, and if the house settles after locking the door you find that you must push the door about 1mm out or the weight of the door rests against the deadbolt and it's pretty much impossible to move by hand. Similarly, most doors and the surrounding frame are subject to seasonal and even daily expansion and contraction based on heat and humidity. It just sounds like a very temperamental device.

Does anyone know the reality of how well these work?


Lockitron Bolt is based on an electronic lock platform that's been in use and refined over nearly a decade. If you have issues locking your door by hand (due to to settlement, weather stripping, etc.), then a connected lock probably doesn't make sense until you adjust your door.

We'll be offering a tapered latch which helps a little bit, however, using it with an out of alignment door is non-ideal as it will wear down the batteries faster.


Never mind mechanical reliability - the fact that it's an outright replacement concerns me.

I wonder what the behaviour would be if I hooked a car battery up to the exterior lock... not a concern with the previous, electrically disconnected from the exterior, model.

Oh, and how well it fares when rain gets in it.


An outright replacement acutually makes for a more robust product as we can control all the variables (how much rotation, how much force, and so on.) The previous version of Lockitron had to work in an unconstrained environment (vastly different characteristics for different kinds of locks Lockitron would fit over.) Think of it as parsing clean vs dirty data.

Also with the car battery example, where are you hooking up what? Electricity follows the path of least resistance. If both jumpers are connected to the outside of the metal deadbolt, you're not going to affect the interior. You would need one jumper on either side of the door to do what I think you have in mind.


The exterior and interior of the door handle are the same wire as far as electricity is concerned - there is no resistance between them. It's not like it's going to magically unlock but the motor will be toast.


Yes, in theory because the two surfaces are connected they are one wire, but in practice metal does not have a non-zero resistance until you get down to absolute zero temperatures.

This subtlety is what allows one to do something neat like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPoomwdNZeY - on their build log you can see the musician does accidentally hurt himself from time to time when bits of his chain-mail don't make for complete coverage but he never goes into cardiac arrest. The current allows goes for the shortest, least resistant path to ground.

A similar effect is also what determines survival rates in lighting strikes. If the current passes through the brain it can arrest breathing, or through the heart and it can cause arrhythmia. If it just passes through a smaller area like a finger it can do more local damage but you'll survive. This is despite your body being 70% water or the equivalent of 'the same wire.'

If you wanted to "shock" Lockitron's motor you would need to ensure the motor is in the current path - this is pretty difficult as it's isolated in a plastic container with only two wires grounded it with the pcb, itself mounted in plastic.


And how exactly do you attach one of the car battery cables to the inside handle if the door is locked? The point is that touching both cables to the front will result in the shortest path between the cables, which goes through nothing useful.


If you are willing to damage the lock to get in you might as well use a sledgehammer. Or epoxy if you want to vandalize it.

(I'm not recommending those activities, just pointing out that the car battery is pretty hypothetical)


Car battery would be much less obvious as a form of vandalism though, unless you were caught in the act.


I have thought the same thing about these types of products but the other day I realized that I pass through several of these electronic deadbolt type door locks at work every day. So maybe the mechanical stability aspect of this is already pretty well proven out?


I have a similar product (to the Bolt) called Kevo and it's been quite reliable, 100% even. That said, my door's deadbolt is a "loose" fit if anything and our climate stays very dry year round...


I don't get it.. What's the point? How hard is opening a classic lock with a key? It's like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.. You can easily imagine things going wrong like unreliability, dead phone or abuse of the "give access via email or SMS" feature


There are many use cases for these technologies that are difficult or impossible to achieve with a traditional key lock.

For example, you can remotely grant 2 hours of access to a tradesman to enter your property and fix something.

You can grant access to realtors to enter your property that is for sale, and you can track how many times they were there and how much time they spent on each visit.

You can grant the cleaning person access between 9am and 1pm on Wednesdays.

You can get into your house with any BLE-enabled device. Even if you lose your phone, you could borrow the neighbor's phone, run the appropriate app, enter the correct PIN, and gain entry. Then give them back their phone and they have no more access to your home than they did before you used it.

Of course, you can argue - a physical key or a keycard doesn't require batteries. But, a keycard can be erased or scrambled or lost. Then you need to quickly reprogram the lock so whoever finds it can't use it. Impossible with a traditional lock, and varying degrees of difficulty with a keycard system.


I think a keycard like businesses use is the way to go for this. You can disable a card's access without having the card.


Its certainly a more complete solution but probably costs too much for the average person to use on their own home. Even $99 for a lockitron is too expensive to interest me at all.


Maybe somebody should make a consumer cost keycard system. I would be much more inclined to use that.


> You can also use email or SMS to give access to a particular lock, so your friends and family can always get in without needing a key. Have a babysitter or a cleaner who comes by regularly? You’ll soon be able to give permission to individuals for specific portions of the day.

From the article. Particularly useful for: AirBnB hosts, people with roommates, friends/family visiting, etc.


I had a bluetooth deadbolt. I was able to give my friend a virtual key when he came to visit as I didn't have a spare for the deadbolt.

The key was encrypted based on a username and password and I could revoke it at will. It filled a need for the time he stayed at my place and worked great.


> I had a bluetooth deadbolt. I was able to give my friend a virtual key when he came to visit as I didn't have a spare for the deadbolt.

Or you could have visited the locksmith (or your local hardware store with a key department) and gotten 1 or more spares in minutes.


I was at work, he was driving in. I mean it just wasn't worth the hassle an email accomplished the same thing.

If it was my mom, sure then I would have had to do the locksmith route.


I went keyless a while ago. I highly recommend it.

It's helpful for friends, dog-walkers, etc. Also, no keys to misplace! (I rarely drive.)

However, I use a simple PIN-code lock, not a phone-based lock. I'm not sure the phone system is worth the extra overhead for me.

I can't wait until I can ditch the wallet too...

Edit: I've had the Schlage keypad locks for about 3 years now without any problems. I haven't even had to replace a battery yet.


May I ask what lock brand?

I used to work in a factory that had a reasonable quality push button mechanical lock in combination with insurance grade cylinder lock on a sturdy door. That cylinder lock was sometimes left "on the latch" when people were working there.

One night (they worked night shifts) a guy got access by brute-forcing the pin-combination lock. It took him (there was CCTV) about 7 minutes to get in.


It's been a long time since I used one, but don't push-button mechanical locks have a pretty small space of possible combinations?


Yea -- the common rectangle ones with 10 buttons don't care about ordering, so you have combinations not permutations, and a tiny search space.


Just to put a number on "tiny": if there are 10 buttons and the code is 5 digits long, there are 252 possible combinations. If it takes you four seconds to try a combination then your expected time to brute force the code would be about 8 minutes.


This isn't a concern on newer locks.

You can use longer codes, order matters, and they throttle failed passcode attempts to prevent brute-force attacks.


I assume you mean electronic locks? Simple mechanical code locks are still pretty common.


> I've had the Schlage keypad locks for about 3 years now without any problems. I haven't even had to replace a battery yet.

What does a battery-operated keypad lock do better than a mechanical one? EDIT: Or were you being sarcastic?


You don't have to carry a key with you.


I meant, what are the differences between an electronic keypad and mechanical keypad.


> How hard is opening a classic lock with a key?

In addition to the other use cases that folks have replied: You are young now, but you will find there are older people whose hands do not work quite so well. Keys, bottles, and a host of other items that you take for granted with well-working hands become serious obstacles to daily living.

[I should add that arthritis can hit even young people.]


Hahah yeah it's way easier to navigate a smartphone than it is to operate a key


> it's way easier to navigate a smartphone than it is to operate a key

If you don't understand the truth of that statement for some people, then consider yourself lucky.


RA ended my love affair with touchscreens before it ever began.


Think about what you know about computer access models (usernames, passwords, OAuth tokens, etc.)

If you were to design a new access system today from scratch, would you set it up so that A) you give everyone the same 2 character password B) you don't give anyone a username and C) anyone can give anyone else admin credentials with no authentication?

Probably not, but this is the way regular house keys work. Lockitron represents a step in fixing that. Keys worked fine in the 20th century when matter was difficult to work with. This won't be the case for the 21st century.


In addition to the problems with your concept of the security model of locks that other commenters have addressed, I'd like to point out that while requiring unique per-person authentication tokens aids in per-user access revocation, it also leaks information, meaning that whoever can view the access logs can effectively track your comings and goings (or at least your comings) through that door. Keys which simply authenticate "I am in the group of people who are allowed to access this" are generally preferable to ones that say, "I am John Smith, check that name against the list of people allowed to access this."

Also, keep in mind that Lockitron is obviously shooting for the consumer market, where concerns about sharing keys are basically non-existent. Commercial users who actually have to frequently deal with key revocations have been using RFID and other per-user access management technologies for ages.


Concerns about sharing keys in the consumer market are pretty common. You might hand out spare keys to a cleaner, pet sitter, neighbor who's watching the house while you're away, etc. and it's not necessarily comfortable knowing that they potentially have access to your house forever afterwards, if they decided to copy the key. The problem is largely ignored just because it's inconvenient to solve. Give people a realistic option for logging access and revoking keys and lots will go for it.


Unless you put huge bars over your windows and have a reinforced door frame/door/lock, it takes all of 30 seconds to break your way into a home anyway. Deadbolts are false security, even if electronic.


>Deadbolts are false security

False security? In what way? False as in they don't do anything? Or false in that they give you a false sense of security?

Deadbolts prevent the most casual of crime and crime of opportunity. Which I would argue is probably the most prevalent type of crime.


And a system where A) you give everyone the same 2 character password B) you don't give anyone a username and C) anyone can give anyone else admin credentials with no authentication?

works just fine there.


" It's like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.. "

That's a lot of startups up there. A lot

Sometimes you see job openings and you read their business model and you think "really?!"


It's funny you say that, because 5 minutes ago I literally locked my door from half-way across the country. The cleaners forgot to lock it when they left. I don't have this lock, I have the schlage z-wave deadbolt sync'd to a wink hub.

Before this lock, my wife would leave the front door unlocked in the morning until the cleaners showed up hours and hours later. I'm not a fan of having my house unlocked, and I wasn't really interested in giving the cleaners a key that they could use anytime they wanted.

What is my alternative other than having my house sit unlocked until my wife gets home in the evening?


I've had my phone stolen before, but never my door keys.

Now I can experience a much bigger problem if I'm mugged again.


Presumably you can revoke the phone's access to the door as soon as you get home, though, because the two need not be permanently bound to one another.


Sure but the question you have to answer before that is how to get in your home without your phone.


I was to understand from the article that it falls back to being a keyed lock, so you'd just use your keys. It'd be pretty dumb to restrict your only method of ingress to something that you can only access when you have your (charged up) phone with you.


It's virtualizing the key, which lets you do some more fancy stuff than a physical key. Namely revoking and adding access without requiring key duplication or changing the locks.


I've been grousing about how much I really want something like this for cars specifically for key-sharing.

My driveway is four cars deep and two wide, so my various housemates all have to make a copy of their key available so we can move any cars blocking us in. If we could just generate a sub-key, that'd be much more convenient.

Similarly, how about the ability to easily give a temporary house key to your visiting friends/family without having to have n spare keys sitting around? (Right now we have a re-programmable keypad, but if we could generate temporary subkeys without either giving out the master code or programming in a subcode, that'd be ideal.)


I have a KwikSet Kevo, and it's been a huge convenience for me when returning home. I'm typically carrying several bags/waterbottle/misc items, and just tapping my lock rather than digging for a specific key is way easier, especially with hands full.


Cars have been doing keyless entry for decades. They've even recently moved to proximity keys so that you don't even have to press a button.

What do you not understand?


I supported the current version of Lockitron, and cancelled my order after waiting over a year. I'm glad I did, based on the reviews and sheer unhappiness with the product.

If the founders of Lockitron think that I will be fooled again by a new product, they're sorely mistaken. I'd rather support a lock that has been out in the field for longer with a company that has proven they can deliver a real product, like the August lock for sale at Apple stores.


They're apparently switching pre-orders for the crowdfunded Lockitron to Lockitron Bolt (http://help.lockitron.com/article/95-whats-bolt-and-how-will...). This is disappointing because Lockitron Bolt is a different kind of product - instead of sitting on top of the deadbolt, you have to replace it instead. This makes it unsuitable for renters like me. It looks like I'll have to cancel my order.


If you are willing to swap it out when you leave there shouldn't be a problem just because you rent. They have an option called Key Match mentioned on their website (didn't see it in the article) that allows you to match it to your existing key. They don't say whether you can later change to a different key or not, but you really shouldn't have a problem just because you rent.


Even with key match, this is a fundamentally different product.

With the original Lockitron, a renter could just install it wherever they were currently staying. With the Bolt, the renter has to get permission to install a new deadbolt and has to get a new key pattern each time.


yes, it's a fundamentally different product. and that should be a reminder why backing something on kickstarter is not the same as purchasing a product. You made a bet that they would send you the product you wanted. You lost that bet.


I'm in this boat and Kickstarter was never involved. I placed a bog-standard pre-order through their web site.


Agreed. Half the reason I've kept my pre-order was as a reminder.


Nope, not under Kickstarter rules. If a company offers items as rewards, it has a contractual obligation to provide those items.


Lockitron wasn't funded on Kickstarter. They built their own self-hosted solution, called selfstarter: http://www.selfstarter.us/


do you have a link to that rule? i don't see it on their site, only this: https://www.kickstarter.com/rules

this:https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics#faq_...

and this: https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics#faq_...

all of which seem to pretty clearly say you might not get what you think you paid for.


https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use#section4

There's a bunch of soft language, but it ends with If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.

But as davefp already pointed out, Kickstarter isn't relevant here.


There is a huge problem. Your landlord still needs access, and isn't very eager to keep track of 15 different locking systems across all his tenants when the keyed locks he installed work perfectly fine.


The August lock replaces only the inside part of the lock (so your apartment manager can still get in), and it's pretty decent. It does take a little too long for Bluetooth to detect the lock, but hopefully the wi-fi module coming out will make it more reliable.


wow they _still_ haven't shipped the original crowd funded one? after the third or fourth pushback, i cancelled my order and haven't even bothered to look.


They have, but not in nearly enough quantity to satisfy everybody, and apparently they decided they just can't realistically do it.


Is there a price difference, and will folks who pre-ordered get a refund?


There is a price difference for people who switch from the previous crowdfunded Lockitron to the Bluetooth only Lock with no Bridge. The difference will be refunded when we start shipping. More details in the Bolt FAQ: http://help.lockitron.com/article/95-whats-bolt-and-how-will...


There is a price difference - I preordered at $159 and the regular Lockitron preorder price was $179. The announced pricing for the Lockitron Bolt is $99. No idea how they'll handle the refunds though.


Yet another IoT widget that glosses over security with a "trust us"? Can I use it without an internet connection? Can a $15 software defined radio do a replay attack?


Lockitron Bolt is BLE-only (although we require an intermittent connection through your handset to transmit encrypted key & log data) unless paired with Bridge. We've thought a lot about an option to use Lockitron entirely offline - is this what you're looking for?


I'm a bit confused by this comment. It sounds like you need to buy an extra thing for $49 to get it to work over the internet at all. Assuming you use the base model, what needs to go online, and who is the key and log data being transmitted to?

I'm not interested in this product at the moment because of how my house is set up, but as a security and privacy-conscious person, I'd much prefer something that requires zero internet connection, even if that means using a version that has fewer features.


Bolt works locally over Bluetooth with no Internet connection. The optional extra thing (Bridge) is if you would like to enable Internet connectivity.

A $15 dollar SDR wouldn't do it either. Most electronic locks aren't susceptible to replay attacks unless they're using KeeLoq and it's out of range. You might be able to do another kind of attack with three Ubertooth One's though. We got something like this working in our lab and I talked about it at DefCon 21 in the Wireless Village track - the basic patch is to use corroborate with other data (geo, time, etc.)


So there's a one time password sent over BLE? Or is it just the fact that a successful pairing was made? The former would be great, the later not so much.


Remember when you would see someones Windows XP system, and they had 40 systray icons all running and blinking in the lower right ?

You know those people that have 20 different OSX extensions all running in the upper right ?

That's what I think of when I think of having 50 different networked computers all chattering away on Internet/bluetooth/wifi/zigbee/whatever throughout every room of my house.


Just counted my icons in the upper right of my OS X. 25. They all do awesome stuff though.


I ended up buying a Lockitron used on Fobo, and the sucker just didn't work. I tried for days to get it to set my wifi settings, and when it finally did work, the lock/unlock wasn't real time from the app; I would have to knock on my door to wake up the Lockitron so it would let me in. I did find their support helpful, but the out of box experience was pretty crappy.

Eventually I had the lock working fine and all I had to do was remember to swap out the batteries every month or so. Unfortunately, the thumb turn on my lock stripped and I have to replace the deadbolt now. I'm not sure if this was Lockitron's fault or that I didn't tighten in the thumb turn retention bolt enough after I install their door adapter.

I would consider either the classic Lockitron or the Bolt, even after this. I remember when I was at the DefCon Wifi Village and someone from Lockitron offered hackers $1000 to turn the bolt remotely; pretty ballsy!


Preordered the Lockitron when is was first announced, after ~ 2 years got tired of waiting and canceled my order and bought a Yale ZWave smart lock. I am very happy with it, it has a touch screen, I can open it with a pin code, from my phone or even from my Android Wear watch. I love that it's ZWave because I don't have to use a separate app for it and other home automation devices, and I can set rules based on the condition of the other devices.

Between getting burned on this and the SOAP router, I will never back a hardware based Kickstrarter. I figure it's better to let someone else pay for the privilege to get the alpha version and struggle with it until the bugs are worked out.


Friends and I were having beers and decided to come up with the most absurd product we could conceive of actually getting funded. One guess as to what it was.

Honestly, doors and locks do not need 'disruption.' Many many other things could use this treatment and the hours put in.

Aside: We decided the pricing sweet spot was 40, as that's about double the cost of a real lock. Also, this actually passes one of the Valley tests, that the company help get you laid (Fb, Google, Uber, etc all do this and the lock here does too as it is 'James Bond-y')


As someone who's very forgetful and tends to leave things behind, I must disagree. When I was in college a few years ago, I left my door unlocked for a period of months, because I had lost my keys, but replacing keys required a fee (increasing every time) and was generally a cumbersome process. I suppose an easy solution would be to not have an obnoxious fee, but if I had had a Lockitron, I could have just used my phone, and if I lost my phone (which, of course, has a remote GPS function), I could have switched to a new one.

A different use case: over New Year's I was on a trip to Germany, working with some friends in a hackerspace there. Since it was a private space (and open at all hours), the door was not kept unlocked, but a relatively large number of people had access to it. The hackerspace could have handed out keys, or used some more complicated keycard system, but instead they used a Lockitron-like device (not sure which one; it being a hackerspace, they were managing the lock over SSH!). This way they could give anyone (potentially temporary) access without complicated logistics.

First world solutions.


Good write-up. Also, Denny's is a shining counterpoint to this. Many locations are 24/7/365. Friends have made it to store management and are explicitly told that though there are locks on the front doors, no-one has the keys as they typically loose them. Apparently, this is not uncommon. I heard about a place in LA that hasn't closed in 50 years or something. The only time they tried to was during the Rodney King riots, but as the keys were long gone, they decided to stay open.


After a 2+ year shipping delay for a defunct product, this company will never see a penny of my money ever again.

    Fool me once, shame on you;
    fool me twice, shame on me.


I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole with how they've handled the original lockitron.


Context; link; something for reference?


Never really shipping, constant delays, bad communication, device failures, android lagging behind, etc etc.

http://www.reddit.com/r/lockitron


88 readers with a huge delay between posts. Is it really that bad?


Go through and read the posts. Doesn't seem like a single person was happy with their lockitron. Some are still waiting for theirs to ship... It's a dud.


Same thing was said about Soylent, who just now are getting their house in order.

Shipping delays for kickstarted products are not a new or unexepcted thing nowadays.


I pre-ordered one in August 2013. Note: pre-ordered, not "kickstarted" or anything of the like. I went to their web site, I saw the product described, I saw a predicted ship date a few weeks away, I placed an order, I gave them money.

A year and a half later and I still don't have it. Communication has been pretty bad, with many blown dates, infrequent messages, and a dashboard that often showed "ship by" dates that were months in the past. Now they're switching my order to a completely different product that I'm not sure I want.

Pre-orders have risk too, but not of even remotely the same magnitude. This behavior might be reasonable for a crowdfunded product, but not for one where the product is supposedly done and shipping imminently.


What do you mean? Their product delay was minimal compared to lockitron (~2years!) and they kept everyone well informed regarding the delay(same can not be said for lockitron). Their refined shipping estimates in light of delays were also spot on. I could not be happier with how Soylent handled things, while I would NEVER purchase anything from lockitron again.


With such a good track record with all of that, I would absolutely trust a device these people made to secure my home! /s



OP was references something so horrid that he would physically not come into contact with said device. The article mentions smoothed-over growing pains for a new hardware company.


I placed a preorder for a Lockitron on Jan 12, 2013, with the general expectation that it would ship in the spring/summer of that year. It did not. I'm still waiting for it.


key fob or some RFID is much easier to use than getting out your phone, flipping through the apps, finding your door app, opening your door app, pressing the button (not registering), pressing the button (fuck, not registering), ahh there we go.. your door is unlocked.

If you're that worried about your nanny having a key, maybe you should stop trusting that person. A door lock only keeps out the honest anyway. Unless you live in a bunker.


What if you have to travel and your friend is going to stay at your place for a night and feed your cat, but you aren't able to give him a physical key beforehand because he's also traveling out of state? It would be great to be able to authorize his phone to open the door. This may have happened to me.


>you aren't able to give him a physical key beforehand because he's also traveling out of state?

I actually had this issue once. I solved it very easily, I put the key in an envelop and mailed it.


I'll grant that breaking into a house is really easy, but it stops both the honest and the lazy, and most of us are usually pretty lazy.


What's the ANSI rating of the deadbolt? Is it some cheap Chinese OEM version?

With all due respect, but considering all the issues with the first Lockitron (which apparently hasn't shipped to all backers yet) I'd have serious considerations trusting this product.

If you couldn't ship a product that would rotate a motor, how should we trust you now to actually have a reliable physical lock and keyway as well!?


You're a tough one to please. Bolt is spec'd for Grade 2.

Previously you complained Lockitron was too expensive[1], now you complain it's too cheap?

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8028912


Different components of a system will have different goal prices. The previous complaint about being expensive was about the cost of the electronics and motor. The question/complaint here is about the cost of the deadbolt. There's absolutely nothing inconsistent about saying you want a cheaper motor or electronics, while insisting on an expensive, quality deadbolt.


A product can be too expensive while also being too cheap. In this case "cheap" refers to the build quality. In other words, cheap for the company to procure.


... and the previous response is clearly a rebuttal to your assertion that it was too "expensive" to build the failed gen lockitron. I pointed out that the BOM and build costs couldn't be nearly as high as you were claiming.

It wasn't about the retail price.


For reference Kwisket/Weiser locks, even the basic deadbolts like 980, are ANSI Grade 1. So why would you provide an inferior bolt!?

I'm not complaining about the price. I'm concerned that now there are two points of failure and that not only there is the risk of the electronics not working and randomly stopping (based on your track record of poor product development) but people are putting an inferior mechanical deadbolt on their door which can be broken into easier and possibly fail more than a regular $20 deadbolt from Home Depot.

I would think as a company with such a checkered past you would be more humble instead of attacking your potential user base.


Are you asking rhetorically or do you earnestly want to know?


I'm puzzled as to why you would provide a Grade 2 instead of a Grade 1. So yes I would like to know what the reasoning was behind that.


If I recall, to be a true Grade 1 one needs to pass a UL test for your electronics to withstand a minute of fire which requires packing them in sand. We're fine being labeled a Grade 2 if we're using a Grade 1 deadbolt, Grade 1 keyway, and Grade 2 electronics.

Some locksmiths are trying to revoke the Grade 1 rating on those Kwiksets you mentioned because of the Smartkey vulnerability. (Grade 1 requires a certain threshold of "pick proof" and "drill proof" which they argue fails to hold up.) Bolt does not have that same vuln. but you can see what it looks like here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1mmjVvMsGs


That is incorrect. The ANSI grading applies to the mechanical lock, keyway, and cylinder only and that was my question. It has nothing to do with UL testing of the electronics or withstanding fire!

It has to do with how easily one can drill into it, or pry it off with a crowbar, or pick it etc.

The spec is only a few dollars, you might want to buy it from BHMA.

The point is Grade 1 ANSI rating is important and offers security against intrusion. You're offering everyone a Grade 2 bolt and from your response seem to be even confused about the difference between the two.

Your deadbolt as you already said is Grade 2. So now you're saying is Grade 1??!


At least their preorder process didn't require advance payment like so many other recent hardware "campaigns" of late. Still a bummer though...

I got tired of the delays and bought a Kevo; doesn't fully satisfy all the things I wanted from Lockitron but hey, I can buy it at the local Home Depot today.


I preordered in Oct 2012, but they made me pay in Oct 2013. Recently cancelled my order, as it never shipped...


What does the other side of the lock look like? That's not clear from the website.

Also, what happens if your phone is dead? This is a serious issue that's not mentioned anywhere on the website. It would be nice if there was a physical key backup.


Sorry we didn't include this. It's very vanilla. See second 14 on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK8ToEdXI8I. Lockitron Bolt still comes with a physical key.


I find it interesting that Lockitron ended up with the same design as the other smart locks. They all replace the lock, are Bluetooth only, and use bridge for remote connection.


Theres insurance issues to consider...

If you report to your insurance company you have a deadbolt and then your house gets broken into. (Perhaps due to a flaw in the software?) Now your insurance company finds out you have a Bluetooth dohicky on your door rather than a physically locked deadlock lock. Your insurance now won't pay up.

I'm not sure how much those Proxcards that every business in the world uses costs, but they sure are time tested and convenient. Probably expensive though. I believe they are RFID.

Don't put this on your rental property either until you consult your local laws regarding requirements for doors and locks for rentals to see if this meets the requirements.


No offense but what's the evidentiary basis for these statements? Are you in the insurance business, or in the lock business?

I work for a company that makes many types of locks and currently is developing NFC and BLE solutions.

The fact is, any kind of lock is vulnerable to a determined and skillful attacker. There are BLE locks that "phone home" to check a password before they'll open; there are NFC locks that are actuated by RF-powered NFC chips that are almost un-crackable except by the Chinese Army or similar organizations.

Then there are conventional badges, key cards and physical keys in universal use, that are rather easily cracked or copied.

Vulnerabilities are already factored into insurance rates. The advantage of a connected BLE or NFC entry system is that it can require a remote login before the door will open. For example, enter the BLE region, the app pops up and prompts you for a PIN, then actuates the unlocking mechanism using an encrypted protocol. No technology is perfectly secure, but these technologies do present great possibilities for improving on current approaches to access control.


>No offense but what's the evidentiary basis for these statements? Are you in the insurance business, or in the lock business?

No. It was a hypothetical situation to CONSIDER. Everyone's situation is different. You should consider what insurance ramifications would be and make sure you are reporting accurately to your insurance company, because inaccuracies can potentially have bad consequences. Unknowingly. Unlikely, but worth looking into first. Check the wording on your policy, it may list things that are disallowed. It may have a different category for electronic locks (and you may even get a discount!) Not saying this is insecure or a physical lock is better, but its use may be excluded in your policy for whatever stupid or non stupid reason. Check it. Thats all I'm saying.

You read my post wrong.


The issue he (and I) have, is that this is worst-first thinking. Sure, your insurance company could deny you coverage, but it's very unlikely. In the absence of evidence that insurance companies do this (and insurance regulators allow it), we should act under the more likely outcome rather than an hypothetical worst-case scenario.

That's why he asked if you were in the lock or insurance industry. Someone with experience in these matters would be qualified to speculate on the importance of taking this into consideration. Without that expertise, rhetoric like this feels like advice to always wear a helmet in case of flying debris. Well-meaning, but unrealistic.


I work in an industry that is highly regulated and law and policy must be followed to a T. Our policies are extremely specific.

It isn't "worst-first" thinking, it is "ok, I'm replacing a critical component, does this replacement meet all the the required specifications of the thing I am replacing it with? What are the potential consequences?" Which takes almost no time, its just a question that needs to be answered in my field.

Perhaps my work in such a regulated environment has taught me to think that way.

I have family in the insurance business, and they've talked about having to deny claims for various (kinda silly in a way) reasons. And getting death threats because of it...


> I'm not sure how much those Proxcards that every business in the world uses costs, but they sure are time tested and convenient. Probably expensive though.

I installed a proximity card system a few jobs ago, and each IP enabled reader from HID (http://www.hidglobal.com/products/readers/iclass/rw400) was about $550 for both the external RFID interface and then the internal in-wall control unit (that used POE Ethernet to connect to the network). The cost per card is fairly trivial.

> Don't put this on your rental property either until you consult your local laws regarding requirements for doors and locks for rentals to see if this meets the requirements.

There are no code issues with this as long as if power fails, internal occupants can still exit the building (fire code).


>There are no code issues with this

How do you know? Landlord tenant laws are incredibly local (you can't possibly know all of them for all locales in the world) and can be very specific and probably haven't gotten caught up to new technology. My town (just the town!) has a 30+ page document on what a landlord has to provide a tenant written in very VERY specific terms. Thats not even considering state laws. And federal.


Because a proximity card is no different than a physical key, and any door that uses a proximity card is going to use an electric strike plate which is already in use to allow tenants to buzz guests in remotely.

I admit there may be some batshit insane locale that prohibits RFID access control, but its not a concern for almost everyone else.

Disclaimer: I have been a landlord previously, in several Illinois cities.


Holy crap, yes, I agree, proxcards are the same as physical keys and are no more or less secure or insecure. Everything its benefits and weakness. However, its worth taking 5 minutes to consult your laws to see if what you're doing is legal even if it "should" be. Laws can be (and are all the time) written by people who don't understand the issues at hand. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and all that. You don't want to (potentially) have issues down the line that are very very easily preventable.

I deal with extremely detailed regulations and policy on a regular basis (I work in a very regulated field) and we MUST do things that are very specific all the time. We need to follow the letter of the law (not just the intention). Looking up "hey, can I do this?" is part of my job, so I'm ALWAYS thinking that way. Policy is usually one step back from new technology. You may have laws and regulation that details specific technologies that may be used in different applications.


Proximity cards themselves are secure, but usually the thing that opens the door isn't: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bttr7fEfxiE


most RFID proximity cards have some fairly large security issues - http://cq.cx/proxmark3.pl


Thanks for the interesting read. :)


Insurance is designed to cover loss in case of accidents, natural disaster, etc.

You can't say your homeowners insurance won't cover you because your house burned down because you were cooking and you aren't a world-class chef.


Huh?

My insurance covers me in the case of theft. When I applied for my policy the adjuster asked me questions about my physical security. Do I have a deadbolt? Security system? Things like that. These variables (along with others, crime rate of my neighborhood, for example) were plugged in and I was given a policy with a premium tailored to my risk. If I lie about my risk to get a lower premium, then if I make a claim, then I won't be covered.

Consider a 100% purely hypothetical situation where I told my insurance company I have a deadbolt on my door. They issue me a policy based on that information. This policy has language in it that defines what a deadbolt is. I then replace my deadbolt with something that doesn't fit the language of my policy. I make a claim, and an insurance adjuster comes to my house. They notice that I was using a tool to secure my door that didn't fit with my policy language. Now I won't be covered because I didn't follow the policy.

Of course that's entirely hypothetical. Maybe (probably?) not even likely. But since it takes all of 5 minutes to verify if the new lock you are installing is compatible with your insurance policy, it would be braindead to not check.

Just something to consider...


The argument isn't whether or not you have a deadbolt, but rather that the technology used in the deadbolt will sway an insurance company not to pay the claim.

Using a bluetooth deadbolt can be compared to using a lock with medeco biaxial pins. The insurance company finds out that medeco biaxial pins are easier to break into with specialized tools and they deny your claim.

This is a moot point, so I would suggest an easier way to break in to your home that doesn't require advanced tech skills: use a rock to break a window ;)


You could literally never lock your doors and your insurance company will still pay up. Your post is painfully misinformed.


My insurance excludes coverage for neglect.

Neglect is defined as "neglect of an insured to use all reasonable means to save and preserve property at and after the time of loss."

My insurance adjuster also asked me specifically about deadbolts.


Wow. This company sure seems like a gold-plated turd in their dealings.

Nope, they shall see none of my money. I'll also pass the word around that their stuff doesn't work.


I can't believe these guys still haven't shipped out product for the original crowd funding campaign. I wouldn't waste my time with this company.


Does anyone know? If I smash the front off one of these (the public facing part), can I wire it up to open the lock?


Is the bridge required? Or can I connect to existing wifi. If not, how about Smartthings hub compatibility?


Bridge is not required for functionality, only if you want remote control. You can still share access with other users and get the benefit of Sense. While on the radar, we haven't announced any integrations with platforms just yet.


August does everything they are claiming and doesn't require a total replacement.


With Bridge, will this still work with the API?


Yes, Bolt will be backwards compatible with our v2 API (https://api.lockitron.com).




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