The more I think about the more I feel that this is the wrong solution to the problem. Disclaimer: I'm doing a small open source espresso controller project, check it out if you're interested, but it's not ready for prime time yet: https://github.com/variegated-coffee.
My thinking is that this machine appeals mostly to people who already has an espresso machine. It's not particularly technologically advanced. It's a single boiler, an E61 group and a vibratory pump. If you're buying this machine, you're probably replacing a machine at a similar technology level, and that's not really a sustainable choice.
A well maintained espresso machine has a lifespan in the range of decades. Many recent innovations in espresso machines is mostly controllers, sensors and actuators. Also better pumps. These are all things that can easily be retrofitted to an older espresso machine.
There has been innovation in other areas not easily retrofittable (saturated groups, dual boilers instead of heat-exchangers, to name a few), but this machine doesn't really feature any of those.
I strongly believe that in this particular demographic, it's a much better (more sustainable, cheaper and all around more fun) idea to retrofit new and advanced parts to the espresso machine they presumably already have, than to buy a whole new machine. We don't need old espresso machines on landfills.
On the off chance that a prospective buyer doesn't already have a similar espresso machine, this isn't too bad of a choice, and the price is decent, but on the other hand, there are a lot of used machines on the market that are looking for a new owner and can be upgraded.
It's also at least as expensive as more advanced machines you can buy already-assembled.
If this was half the price, I might be interested. But if I wanted a coffee maker with open source control, I'd probably just hack an existing cheaper product. And I'm someone who absolutely loves assembling stuff from kits!
Heck, I'd be surprised if someone hasn't already got Doom running on a Sage.
It's also at least as expensive as more advanced machines you can buy already-assembled.
Exactly. The parent post mentions this being "the wrong solution to the problem", but I don't know what the problem is this product is addressing. E61 machines are well understood and diagrammed with (somewhat) interchangeable parts. If this product appeals to you, you can buy a cheaper/similarly priced machine, take it apart and put it back together yourself.
Oh, don't get me started on what the problem is :D
* Espresso machine electronics are very proprietary. There's basically one manufacturer, no published schematics and very closed firmwares.
* That one manufacturer's hardware occasionally breaks and needs replacement, and they charge up the wazoo for it.
* Firmware updates is not a thing. Buying a new controller with the new firmware is your only option.
* Espresso machine electronics hardware is pretty firmly stuck in the past. If you're lucky you have a 128x64 px OLED, but more likely you have LED indicators, 7 segment displays, or graphical LCDs.
There are absolutely exceptions to this, but for 95% of the espresso machines out there, you're definitely not getting the full potential of the hardware.
> * Espresso machine electronics hardware is pretty firmly stuck in the past. If you're lucky you have a 128x64 px OLED, but more likely you have LED indicators, 7 segment displays, or graphical LCDs.
I don't know if I'd consider adding a screen to an espresso machine to be an improvement. What would it be useful for?
I have a no-display machine and I wish it had a few things that a screen would facilitate:
(1) Automatic shot timer.
(2) Shot volume display (my machine is a volumetric one, but I have to measure the weight of the output to calculate what volume it dispensed)
(3) Ability to configure other parameters, such as pre-infusion time, where I'm guessing the manufacturer just left this out because it would complicate an already kind of painful button + LED UI.
I also wish it had a group head temperature sensor, but that would add more hardware to the machine than just the screen.
I don't think any of these issues are solved by selling you a pile of parts and having you build the machine yourself. An open/more flexible PID is a great idea, but that's just one piece of this product & could be built into an already assembled machine. There are some machines (Decent, Sam Remo You) that give you a lot more control, but even this level of control probably goes unused by a lot of its users if the h-b forums are to be believed.
More control than that, or a totally open PID, might be a hard sell for safety reasons. That alone is a nonstarter, but even as you approach that level of openness, it would be pretty hard to support and really isn't needed if you just want a good shot of espresso and aren't taking an niche academic approach to an already niche process. This is why you likely won't see it in more commercial machines.
Perhaps you're thinking of the commercial market and I'm thinking of consumer, but there's been a lot of really interesting developments in the last few years at the intersection of affordable and high quality output -- I own a plus Bambino plus now, for example, which is simply a delightful machine, though I too wish I could modify the firmware.
Gicar. If you're looking at home machines from manufacturers that also do commercial (e.g. Profitec, ECM, Lelit, Rancilio, La Marzocco etc), they almost exclusively use Gicar electronics.
Now the big question - was Baratza cool to deal with? I haven’t had too much interaction with them, but I replaced (they sold me) a controller board for my Vario-W for a reasonable price, as well as burrs and the drive. The machines are good for what they are, but their service (what they pride themselves on) is exceptional in my experience.
An E61 is the wrong choice. They have fluidic mechanical pressure ramp system. A modern machine ought to have adjustable computerized pressure profiles.
Yes. E61s are full of springs and an orifice and a valve body that ramps the pressure mechanically. This is not only overly complicated but it exposes the brew water to dissimilar metals and adds a ton of surface area to shit up with rancid coffee oil. A group with a shorter water path is better since we can easily have control over the pressure with a computer.
I’m actually taking a very componentized approach with my new Rust based firmware. Wherever it makes sense, I’m spinning things off into separate crates and will be publishing them (e.g. crates for the ADS124S08 and FDC1004 used in the All-Purpose Espresso Controller.
Also, everything is permissively licensed, so feel free to use whatever you want.
I only see power requirements (1300 W) but no mention of voltage or frequency requirements---not even in the user guide. The pricing in € hints that the creators are in 240/1/50-land, and that I'm out-of-luck in the 120/1/60 wastes of North America. It's a shame, because I'm very much the target demographic for a kit like this. One could transform it from 120 V or run it on our 240 V split-phase with an isolation transformer of course, but running the A/C pump 20% faster might be dubious.
As an aside, I'm frustrated for the same reason regarding induction cooktops. European units are a fraction of the cost of their American equivalents.
You're probably not out-of-luck. Just buy a heat element designed for your grid's voltage. The electronics' internal PSU might already be capable having a wide range input.
Besides that, I would absolutely not recommend you buy this.
Reason: the parent commenter already hinted in the right direction. The E61 brew group is ancient (invented in 1961 by Faema in Italy, hence the name), it sports 4kg of brass and many moving parts (3 valves, camshaft + lever) and features an analog pre brew chamber.
I do restore italian espresso machines for a hobby and have come to the same conclusion as the parent. Even if they're not maintained properly those things are meant to last and can in most cases be resurrected. Most spare parts are readily available and defacto industry standard (eg. The Brasilia ring brew head) and you can retrofit nice electronics easily (eg. clever coffee or the gaggiuino foss controller project featuring pressure transducers, pid controller(s) and a controllable Flow/Pressure rate, profiles, apps and so on).
This diy project is imho bland and uses the most ancient brew head available, with unnecessary heat dissipation, long warmup times and probably leaded brass...
I rent a place with an espresso machine, but the next place I'm moving to doesn't have one. I absolutely love tinkering and open source. I like coffee, but I'm not crazy about perfection. I value the experience of building it and owning a self-built thing highly.
This is perfect for me. There must be dozens of people like me. Dozens!
Personally I really like my Luddite espresso setup--OE hand grinder and La Pavoni lever machine. The tech, pumps, etc really don't do it for me.
The only thing I'd change is the electric heating element. I'd like to be able to use it on my boat where electric BTUs are expensive compared to gas. Maybe there's a DIY boiler in my future.
Although I've been regularly fixing my Baratza grinder and Rancilio Silvia for years the fact is that disassembling hardware and tightening screws still looks slightly scary and dangerous. It is always an adventure but not always fun.
My fearless limit on hardware DIY is assembling IKEA furniture and cleaning my bike. Beyond that, I'd think twice.
Sage/Breville Dual Boiler and do the slayer mod + drip tray mod, you can then pull espresso that rivals any machine out there for a fraction of the cost. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmQgxQ5Higw
The machine is old enough to be well understood with documented mods and fixes, it's dual boiler, triple PID, extreme temp stability, fill from the front, drip tray indicator. I love it.
Get a used Rancilio Silvia + do a fully fledged Gaggiuino build.
Check this Video comparison (Not a modded Silvia though, but a Gaggia classic which I would not recommended due to its aluminum boiler and the new China manufactured models have a (probably Teflon) coated boiler that likes to shed the coating... just search on reddit). The emphasis in this comparison is on the Gaggiuino mod, which does all the magic (profile based brewing). The underlying base machine is not that important. I would stay away from Sage/Breville, too much non standard parts and lots of plastic for my taste.
My go-to recommendation for single boiler vibratory pump machines has been Gaggiuino. I’m not sure I can still recommend it after their latest source-closing move, but it is absolutely still the best bang-for-the-buck upgrade for single boiler vibratory pump machines.
You can get a similar machine (Quick Mill Carola) for the same price, assembled. To scratch the hacker itch, you can get a much cheaper machine (Gaggia Classic Pro, Rancillio Silvia) and install a PID (a computer to control most of the brewing parameters).
I understand the appeal to "hackers", but if you just want coffee, there are more, proven reliable, less expensive, options.
I've had the PID enabled version of Quick Mill Carola for a few years now, and I don't think I would recommend it. The #1 issue for me is the water reservoir and associated fill sensor. The water reservoir is too difficult to refill, too difficult to see how full it is, and the water sensor is really unreliable and will beep loudly and prevent warm up even when the machine is full. I ended up disabling the sensor. I won't be getting rid of my Carola, but I think there are better choices now, something like the ECM Puristika, perhaps.
I'm looking specifically for comments involving GCP and Silvias as I struggle to see a better option for us 'hackers.' Posting a separate comment about the Gagguino project [1] unless I find one. Would be happy to hear of a better path to Decent-level performance.
I have a quick mill QM67 from 2012...well past 10000 shots in that time and about 5 hours of "On time" per day. since I got it I hacked in a direct plumbing line with a solenoid, and have killed one $29 pump.
However, it is probably now in need of a teardown. the brew pressure bypass valve is seized, and there is some scaling/corrosion in the brew head. I've got a machine shop, so I'm tempted to tear the whole thing apart, rewire, and replace the core electronics, but I'm not sure exactly what to do.
That's a great deal and a very nice machine, but it isn't really the same in the sense that the Carola is a PID machine, but not a pressure profiling machine. I've used a non-pressure-profiling machine for years, and it's great, but pressure profiles are the current area of innovation for espresso machines and hacking.
A neat project for sure but as it stands this has major safety issues. The control logic is able to lock up and keep the boilers heating element in an forever "on" state till something snaps. I couldn't find a mention of safety in the manual nor see any mechanical safety failsafes in case of overheating.
> I couldn't [...] see any mechanical safety failsafes in case of overheating.
On the assembly instructions, page 39 shows the boiler assembly has a therm-o-disc thermostat fixed to the top. It's not labelled, you just have to recognise it. The schematic on page 44 shows it's wired in series with the boiler's heater. That provides redundancy for the main temperature control, which is presumably the microcontroller sensing from the PT1000
Page 32 also describes the installation of an overpressure valve (which appears to return water to the cold tank?)
The machine does lack hardware run-dry protection though; as far as I can tell, it relies on a load cell to detect if there's water in the tank. If you ran it without water to conduct heat from the heating element to the thermostat, the thermostat wouldn't function. So it's not entirely safe, as you say.
A thermal fuse isn't for overpressure control, it's intended to trip before a physical overpressure control vents superheated steam. Both provide failover redundancy independent of operational heater controls.
There isn't enough detail of the boiler to tell if there's an overpressure relief valve. The boiler can't be made safe without one. If they're cheap enough to be standard in cheap knockoff moka pots one should be here...
This machine's wiring diagram shows an unlabelled shape wired in series with what might possibly be the heating element and a shape with "ssr" in its label. Which places the first unlabelled shape in the right place to be a thermal fuse or switch. If they're cheap enough to be standard in Mr Coffee machines one should be here...
Safety discussion in this project is conspicuously absent. Knowledgable users shouldn't be making assumptions like this about safety features. Assumptions and safety aren't compatible. Average users should be informed in detail about the safety features they're tasked with assembling.
Are you speaking from experience or did you just study the f/w? I agree, gotta have those thermal switches, and they need to result in killing power on threshold breach.
I read the firmware, it's build with the Arduino IDE and PWM for the heater element is bitbanged and updated from the main loop. Meaning it can easily get stuck sending a MQTT message over wifi when it loses connection, causing the heater to possibly be left on indefinitely.
Lots of 3d printers used to have issues like this with the firmware controlling their hotends. They’d fail on and start a fire. Modern Klipper and Marlin firmware detect wild or unexpected temp swings and pull the “emergency stop” cord to shut it all down.
And speaking of safety, old FPV flight control software didn’t handle a very common mistake. It is very easy to put the wrong propeller on a motor. For example you might accidentally put on the counterclockwise propeller on the motor that spins clockwise. The result is when you arm the quad (as in turn on the motors), it flips its shit because the quad starts moving in a completely unexpected way. The flight control software is designed to “lock the angle (attitude) of the quad in and fight any uncommanded deviation”. Well, a backwards prop produces a hell of an uncommanded deviation!! So the controller tells the motor to spin faster to compensate but all that does is make things worse as the backwards prop pushes the thing in the exact wrong way. So it becomes an out of control quad that can and will cause property damage and injury (the propellers on a quad are large, very sharp and attached to very powerful motors. Coming into contact with a spinning propeller will send you to the hospital). This was a big problem in tight spaces like races and stuff.
A while ago somebody submitted a pull request that added a safety. When first arms, if the quad starts to behave “wrong” or “unexpected”, it immediately disarms. From what I recall it was actually fairly simple to detect too… if the “error” in the PID loop got too high it means something is very wrong mechanically and it’s best shut down. Countless fingers have no doubt been saved by this patch.
It’s probably very similar detection code to what is in 3d printer firmware or espresso machine firmware. If the PID error is “unexpected” something is mechanically wrong and it needs to shut down before Bad Things happen.
Man I’d love to get this semi-affordably in Europe. Such a cool product. I use a Cafelat Robot for my morning brew and it’s consistently the highlight of my day. Manual espresso rules
In addition to my AeroPress I also regularly use a ROK espresso machine, which is pretty similar to the Cafelat I believe, and I can attest it's pretty awesome.
Espresso forge has even fewer moving parts, and no rotating bearing surfaces or arms that can snap. The moving part is a stainless steel rod with two EPDM o-rings on the moving surface. It will last several centuries given a supply of o-rings. The basket mating surface has a silicone gasket which lasts forever if you store the device in pieces after cleaning up the coffee grounds.
The prices on some of the hand pumps are wild to me. I feel like if I'm going to go the hand pump route, then I shouldn't be paying the same price as a Gaggia Classic Pro.
Seconded, love the ability to take it camping (car, the thing weighs a ton) along with a c40, and use standard-size baskets. Current favorite is a big bang[1] which leads to a very different resulting espresso than the stock basket - both great!
Oh nice! Expresso Forge is exactly what I've been looking for. I'm a big fan of manual, maintenance & electricity free coffee tools. Thanks for sharing.
Perhaps consider other options which don't require large force. I'm currently running a normal aeropress, from before the VC buyout, with a Fellow Prismo + paper filter, and i'm getting results which I'm very happy with. I use my forearm to press rather than hands. I've been happy enough i've avoided building a Gagguino[1], which I'm a super big fan of despite my distaste for vibratory pumps.
For no heater or lever, this compares relatively poorly to a Flair[2] in my eyes. I've found all this coffee stuff to be highly available used at a discount all along the Atlantic coast US.
Wow that site is incredibly annoying on mobile, just let me scroll ffs. Anyway, is this comparable to those portable pump action espresso machines? Thus seems quite a bit larger for minimal gain, at first glance, but I'd be happy to hear opinions on how it might be better (after all, it is bigger, presumably for some good reason).
It is a better-than-1200E machine at the end of the day when you look at the components and overall build.
It has PID temperature control (typical) but _also_ pressure control. You could build a Gaggiuino for less money and the same effort, but you'd be left with a far lower quality piece of hardware as the Gaggia hardware has a shitty boiler, plumbing, group, and casing.
I'm not a huge fan of vibropumps either, but they're common for pressure profiling machines (up to $3-4K) because they're easier to control and compact. Moving to a rotary pump would cost ~$300 more at the component level, so while I'd a reasonable upgrade it would hurt the overall economics of the product to make that standard.
I still think it's expensive -- I personally would try to hit the market with a $999 kit cost if at all possible. The market for big spender espresso geeks without a machine is indeed small.
I have a Consumer Reports subscription and I’ve seen countless videos on YouTube about espresso machines, but after all these years I still don’t own one.
I’m not an enthusiast. I just want a high quality espresso machine that makes consistently good espresso shots. I’m never going to be someone who wants to spend 15-30 minutes on creating a shot of espresso.
I’m bewildered that a machine that makes hot water push at high pressure through a puck of grounds costs more than a high-end computer.
What do people buy who don’t decant the smell of their own farts who just want an espresso machine?
What’s the ATH-M50 or the IBM Model M of espresso machines?
I am the “self-upgrade my hardware” type. If there’s one piece of advice I didn’t listen to it’s “just buy the nicer machine” for espresso. While it’s fun that I got to upgrade the parts and make it better. It also cost me just as much money. The tinker aspect only involves a few simple upgrades on my Gaggia Classic Pro.
But what I didn’t realize is that espresso machines, much like other consumer hobbies was already a fairly expensive area to get invested. You get the machine but then you need a grinder, a milk steaming container, the beans, the tamper, the portafilter mesh screen, a deeper basket, bottomless portafilter, the “better” steamer tip for the wand... On and on you can invest money in this consumer hobby, middle man cornered market. Do you have the special tool to loosen your grounds if you didn’t tamp correctly? You’ll use it once or twice before just dumping out the grounds instead.
I have definitely reached my financial limit on the coffee experience. And most of the extra crap I bought bundled. At some point if I continue investing, I would not be saving money from buying a $3 cup of coffee from the cafe and the awkward barista waiting for me to tap the tip screen.
When I sell I’ll probably just buy a moka pot and milk steamer of some sort instead.
Pareto principle. I bought a Gaggia but didn't do all of the extra stuff you mentioned, because I simply don't care enough for marginal returns. That's why a moka pot, which I had before, would still not be a good enough successor, because getting just the Gaggia is enough for most people who want to make espresso, the optimizations you talk about, while I have heard of all of them, are pretty much unnecessary if you are not trying to reach 100% of the output. I am content with 80% good enough results.
Espresso is a weird animal. In my experience, there’s basically “good espresso” and “bad espresso”. The fancy equipment mostly helps you make the good kind more frequently.
Experts can critique your cup, but hitting the sweet spot of “good” feels more like 97% of the output. If anything, the Pareto principle applies instead to the frequency of “good” extraction.
That’s about right. Sometimes my machine makes a great cup and I have no idea what I did that day. Sometimes my cream froths almost instantly, others it barely froths. No discernible difference in steps. Maybe it’s related to horoscopes.
The advice though on the market is that if you want a good cup of coffee you need to do more than buy the machine. I agree that the gains are marginal. With a PC, I can upgrade my ram and the gains might be marginal, but I still have a world of free stuff I can install and tinker on it. Once the espresso machine is built/upgraded then that’s it really. You can only buy more things for it. There is no exploratory afterward to enjoy really.
I don’t agree that a moka pot wouldn’t be enough. Percolation through a moka pot tastes 10 times better than my Gaggia. My Gaggia has no determination when enough is enough, I have to count to 20-25 seconds each time I want a cup. I once accidentally percolated a cup with it by not refilling the resovoir enough. The little water the boiler was able to pump out was pure steam and it was my best cup of coffee I had with the machine, even if it was maybe detrimental to the machine itself.
> The advice though on the market is that if you want a good cup of coffee you need to do more than buy the machine.
The advice from anyone trying to sell you fancy tools and from anyone trying to justify to themselves that they bought fancy tools will always be that you need to buy fancy tools in order to enjoy the product. It is, of course, an obvious fabrication to anyone not inside this loop, and a form of cruelty against someone like you who got burned by it and wants out.
> I agree that the gains are marginal.
Not even marginal. It very very very quickly becomes so far below marginal that neutrinos and putting your left leg into your pants first instead of the right leg will make a more consistent difference, but people will continue to exaggerate differences and insist that you need to spritz the grounds with holy water and give them a back massage first before brewing to make anything halfway palatable.
> Percolation through a moka pot tastes 10 times better
And a moka costs $20 and lasts through a nuclear war.
Nuclear war is unlikely to hit anywhere beans are actually produced. Nobody out there with nukes is like "we gotta wipe out those fuckers in Brazil, Vietnam, Colombia, and Indonesia!"
> I don’t agree that a moka pot wouldn’t be enough
Sure, but a moka pot is not espresso, by the definition of espresso. It is like espresso, sure, but it does not achieve the required pressures to, well, press (hence, espresso) the water through the coffee. That is why I stopped using moka pots.
> The advice though on the market is that if you want a good cup of coffee you need to do more than buy the machine
That may just be your opinion because I honestly don't see any reason to spend more than necessary on espresso, as BugsJustFindMe says.
In short, I want espresso, but I do not want anything past that point, because the gains are marginal.
I didn’t know anything about coffee going in, I still don’t really. So it was easy to fool me. That isn’t my opinion about marginal gains, that was my observation.
>While it’s fun that I got to upgrade the parts and make it better. It also cost me just as much money.
Reminds me of the 3D printing hobby, you can buy a cheap printer and spend all your time and money tinkering to make it better, or you can just spend a little more upfront and spend your time printing instead of tinkering.
The espresso folks that like tinkering forget that sometimes someone just wants to have one to drink and then get about their day.
>At some point if I continue investing, I would not be saving money from buying a $3 cup of coffee from the cafe and the awkward barista waiting for me to tap the tip screen.
It'd be interesting if all of these projects online included an ROI statement at the end. I suspect most of them take years to pay off, if at all, if you ignore the entertainment value of tinkering.
If you are passionate about Espresso, I really suggest to try Kamira (https://www.espressokamira.com/).
It's very easy to make and maintain and you can have espresso at home like the one in the bar.
I am Italian, so coffee is almost a religion for us
The physical principle is the same as the moka pot, the water boil in the tank and the steam pass through coffee. The main difference is that in the moka the steam flows from down to up and in the kamira from up to down and it's not going to burn the coffee dust.
I can assure that the coffee with kamira is exactly like the one that you can taste in a bar.
I’m kind of late to the conversation, but one requirement most home users overlook is using lead free parts.
The brass in most high end heads slowly leaches lead into the boiler water. Arguably, this doesn’t matter at a coffee shop, since the boiler turns over the water in a few hours. At home, it takes a month or so.
Anyway, I settled on a Flair Classic lever machine (one moving part, all stainless steel and silicone gasket on the water contact path), and previously, a PID kettle.
It turns out that water boils at espresso temperature at ~ 2000 ft, so when the PID kettle died, I replaced it with an antique enameled cast iron kettle (my induction range heats it up ridiculously fast).
I boil the stainless espresso machine head in the kettle with the espresso water, which achieves the same thing as continuously circulating hot boiler water through it in commercial espresso machines.
I put the money I saved on the machine into a small commercial-grade burr grinder (like for the decaf beans at a coffee shop).
I haven’t noticed any consistency issues vs. a $3500 machine at work. That thing can crank out four espressos in parallel all day long, but I don’t need that at home.
I’m not a really avid espresso person but IMO any decent espresso machine could do the job, the real deal is the coffee grinder. Invest in the highly precision grinder could up scale your espresso shots without an expressive coffee machine.
I've thought about this. Nice burrs are available, yet the other machined components are less so available. 3d printing will get the project only part of the way for what I'd think of for a real part. My brain is sort of putting a plan together as I'm typing, so perhaps I'll put together a prototype when my brain is less taxed.
Anyway, I really like my Flair. It is fun to press the thing manually. And it is nice to have espresso still during a power outage (as long as I can get ground beans and fire).
I think this is a different definition of “do it yourself” though, hahaha.
I have a Flair. Poking a temperature probe into the emerging stream revealed that a finely choreographed preheat ritual is necessary to get even close to the usual recommended 200F.
I've had a flair for about 3 years now and love it.
Simple, not that expensive, extremely easy to clean and yet has less annoying maintenance than a fancy machine. Extremely unlikely to break. Very good control of the process and very good coffee.
Obviously the weakness of the flair is the turnaround time. (I don't have the Flair 58). But I am the only one in my house who actually drinks Espresso. For the amount I drink I don't think the Flair actually takes much more time than a very expensive automatic machine, because I would leave the fancy machine turned on and hot and ready to make coffee.
I find the turnaround time of the Flair a good thing. Firstly it makes a nice 5-10 minute ritual first thing in the morning, especially when combined with a hand grinder. And secondly it is just enough effort that it prevents me from drinking too much espresso which I absolutely would do if I had a more automated process.
Yeah, the turnaround time is a thing, but I mostly only notice it when I’ve ground my beans too fine and pushing the lever takes too long. Which was an error in the first place, I guess.
If everything is going well, I’ll usually just do one shot right after the other (no cleaning), like a barbarian. It works fine and I don’t have to heat up the water chamber again, haha.
Do you know of any resources to help learn bicycles? I wish I could tune my own bicycle but can't seem to figure it out. I can build my own computer, change the oil in my car, paint a house, etc. but my bicycle always befuddles me.
It's a learning curve. Start with the bits of regular maintenance you need to do, and go on YouTube to learn how to do it. Besides Sheldon Brown's webpage, Park Tools make great maintenance tutorials.
Start with tuning brakes, to changing chains, and tuning derailleurs, changing cables, taking bits off for cleaning.
It will feel cumbersome, and a few times you will get yourself into a mess and end up taking a more-broken bike to the shop. But you'll get there eventually.
Just about any book on the subject will be adequate to get the basics. There's also nearly nothing on a bicycle you can screw up in a way that you can't in-screw it up by turning the screw in the other direction (exception: wheel trueing, but even that you have to blow pretty bad to taco a rim). If you get into rebuilding mountain bike suspension, this doesn't apply, but that shouldn't be your first project anyway. Oh yeah, and hydraulic brakes probably also wouldn't be a great first project.
Get a book and start experimenting. Plan on re-doing some work.
Maybe find a way to hold the bike without investing in a work stand if you're over thirty. I've done a lot of work on the side of the road while bike touring, but that doesn't hold much appeal these days if I have another choice.
ETA: get a tube of bike grease from Park and a bottle of chain lube (Tri-Flow is fine, and so is everything else). Those'll cover your lubricant needs for years.
Besides Sheldon Brown, look for community bike shops in your area! They often need volunteers to help out with all kinds of things and you’ll get direct exposure to a huge variety of bike tech and really knowledgeable folks who live and breathe bikes.
Also get a copy of the Big Blue Book of Bicycle Repair from Park tools. A good reference before the Internet. There are other good books as well that cover specific parts - The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt is good too if you want to go really in depth on spoked wheels.
Talk to the folks at your local bike shop, and they can 1) tell you what type of parts your bike has so you can find the right resources 2) refer you to local groups who work on bikes like "bike kitchens" 3) sell you parts and tools you may need.
Also, friends who work on bikes are usually happy to help!
Yes, definitely, but please remember that while we love talking bikes, if you make a habit of discussing the purchase of an $8 set of brake pads for 20 minutes, we'll mysteriously disappear the next time you walk in.
Another vote for Sheldon Brown, but I'd also recommend searching on YouTube for how to do various maintenance jobs. Once you've watched a few videos, you'll soon learn the terminology for the various parts.
They are looking for specific recommendations. There are lots of resources out there and Sturgeon's Law means it's still difficult to find really great sources.
Was just going to comment on this. Sure it’s “the standard”, but it has so many downsides for home usage. Just stick with the standard 58mm portafilter but ditch the ancient e61.
What are the downsides? I had one for about a decade (a heat exchanger machine) and never had any issue with it. I've been thinking about getting back into espresso and an e61 would be something I look for mostly because I'm comfortable with it.
Broadly speaking, modern espresso groupheads for home use you want to focus on one thing: responsiveness. You want it to react to temperature provided, not resist changes to temperature, and be able to be controlled. E61 groupheads are typically coupled directly to the boiler of the machine via thermosiphon, so they heat up as the machine heats up. This also means that heating up the giant chunk of mass takes ages. Terrible for home use.
The E61 grouphead is meant for commercial usage. It's heavy, tons of thermal mass, and has a tendency to overheat if it isn't flushed regularly (or, in the case of a commercial setting, just used... which typically isn't a problem in a commercial setting).
For most home usages of E61 machines you need to perform "temperature surfing" to get a great shot from an E61. More modern groupheads don't have such a large thermal mass and tend to be somewhat isolated from the boiler or thermoblock, so you can just heat them directly from a previously pulled shot and be just fine.
Again, not to say you can't make good espresso from them. I think there's also some E61 constructions and mitigate some of these issues, but they're not standard in the industry.
Calling this thing "DIY" and shipping a box of prefab components is a little rich... I was expecting to see blueprints for a lever machine or similar not something using a bunch of production components kludged together.
That said, not everyone is looking for a machining project, but this is basically "some assembly required" not really my flavor of "DIY".
Thanks for the recommendation! I was actually looking for an Espresso machine today and the manual operation is very appealing, especially because I want do not yet want to invest a lot.
The downside of all manual espresso machines is that it's difficult to achieve good and consistent head temperatures. Pre-heating takes additional time in the brewing process.
A 1,200 € espresso machine you have to put together is………out there.
Having an open firmware appliance is cool. But latching that technology onto an espresso machine, something that’s existed for hundreds of years is ridiculous.
This device is for tech yuppies. Guys in the Bay Area who can boast about how their espresso was made open source.
This is very cool - website is down for me now but looking at their Instagram post looks like an E61 group head, and espresso-only functionality (no steaming) which simplifies thing a ton. Looks like this would pair really well with a Nanofoamer for people who like milk drinks. I'm definitely tempted!
The price/performance curve is never linear. Everyone finds their spot, and then thinks “cheaper units are ugly garbage, more expensive units are frilly and pointless.” It’s personal consumer psychology, not science.
Wrong narative. I love espresso. But comparing it with 250 euro espresso machine, I highly doubt that it will make 500% better coffee, for wast majority of the owners, cleaning one < 500 euros machine regularly would make more difference, maybe drying portafilter before use, learning how to equally distribute coffee in portafilter, adding a round cut tea/coffee filter at bottom of it, grind coffee correctly. Price / performance is just not there.
And I am not saying that any other mentioned "mid range" espresso machine is worth that money.
i can tell you that more often than not it will make 500% better espresso.
I've owned 5 machines from varying price categories and the number of features you get with a machine around ~1200 gets you the most consistent experience.
can you make a good shot of espresso with a ~250 euro machine? absolutely. can you make 2-5 back to back great shots? probably not. Can you use any bean you want and get a good shot? probably not.
Audiophiles are a bad analogy since you can setup a blind taste test of coffee equipment. And different people will make the same identifications. Which suggests that we all tasted the same thing. Where as you can’t tell the difference between cables.
I’m all for being skeptical, especially with something as subjective as taste.
But it always amuses me that people never bother to check their skepticism. Has it ever occurred to you that you might one day be wrong?
Someone actually did a blind study comparing flat vs conical grinders with over 150 coffee professionals [0] to find they could not discern a difference in how the coffee was ground before being brewed while controlling for other variables.
So it would seem that Audiophiles are the perfect analogy.
I’d love to see what grinders and specific burrs she used.
We also setup a blinded coded triangle test, there was only 3 of us and four grinders: one $5k grinder, 2x$2.5k, one $700. 2 flat 2 conical. The flats have teeth supposedly for filter brewing. One coffee.
We picked the grinders correctly. Obviously we could have better methods, but the differences seemed obvious between the flats and conical. Within the same geometry, I think I just guessed the better tasting one to me was the more expensive grinder which may or may not be true. This surprised us. We didn’t think we’d pick anything. But all agreed on similar tasting notes for the flats and conical with no proper discussion or even looking at the notes for the coffee.
Brewing espresso I even observe psychical differences during the brew. I have two sets of flat burrs from the same grinder. Different teeth pattern. Same coating. One set allows me to go much finer to hit the same grams per second out and always leaves a soupy mess in the basket regardless of setting. The other doesn’t leave a soupy mess and grinds courser. I don’t know what’s happening. But this is easy to reproduce.
But then again, I also have a hand grinder that tastes more like my flats. And was quite cheap. So flat vs conical may not matter at all and it’s the shape of the cutting surface.
The same bean on my setup with 2 pre-weighed doses at room temp. One dose is vacuum packed and frozen over night.
When making espresso, the frozen beans straight from the freezer, must be ground finer for the same rate of output. And it tastes slightly more intense. I would guess that TDS went up but I can't prove that. All I can prove is that the space between the burrs is smaller.
This is a very different difference than between flats and conicals. If you brew for cupping, that is grinds straight in water, the conicals produce a muddier coffee. Basically more fine bits of coffee are in suspension and you can feel it.
This woman was serving up filter coffee. If she used good filter paper, and ground coffee appropriately, I can totally buy that almost all the fines were removed from the final product and no difference can be tasted.
I find it cute that you think people arguing that 1250E is not that much for a quality espresso machine don't know Hoffman's videos like the back of their hands :)
Yeah, I am also curious to see coffees on both done by professional barista, blind tasting and the results.
edit: found something, but unfortunately, not the same barista and only two tasters. Plus decorations on milk gave a hint who made what...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9YhsDPz2I0
But this is a wrong metric to use! _Can_ you get the same coffee out of 250E machine as from a 20kE one? Probably!
Will it take the same amount of work? Will it be as repeatable as the more expensive one? Will you need to temperature surf? How many wasted shots does it take me to dial in? Can you steam milk at the same time as pulling a shot? Can you do a ~19g dose?
If "taste under best possible conditiosn" is your _only_ metric, then, sure, I guess anything over a baseline espresso machine is frivolous.
But espresso is _very_ finicky to get right, even with the best and most expensive equipment, under the best circumstances. Having a reliable, repeatable machine removes one variable from the equation, letting you worry about one thing less.
Creature comforts and convenience are valuable too! A beat-up 1990 sedan will get you from A-B just the same as a 2024 luxury german car. But people value _nice things_.
So we agree on most important factor. You can get a great espresso from 5 times cheaper machine. This is what I was claiming. Price / performance, not worthy.
There always needs to be someone that overpays things or we would have those 1250 euro machines for 250 euros when market instead of hype would start working.
You could make the same argument about a 250 euro espresso machine and a 30 euro moka pot. If the materials are better and the buyer likes it, it’s worth it to them at least. I think most people who own an espresso machine understand it’s a luxury.
I don't disagree that a moka pot and espresso are completely different processes, I'm saying that a 250 EUR espresso machine is not going to be capable of making actual espresso (barring stuff like Flair that takes away components to make it work).
Just head to technical data and feel free to explain which parameter is wrong. Take the cheapest one, 213 euros. Is is 15 (12) bar of pressure? Some other type of heater, as 1300 Watts of input power is not enough?
Seriously, I don't understand what the limiting factor is? Not expensive enough?
Lack of temperature control is a minus, as that means that there will be some blends that won't taste good, these days most fancy machines have a pid (and if yours doesn't you should install it, or you are missing out).
Kind of related, lack of boiler at 1.5 atm means non-great milk foaming capabilities.
Also, you buy a good 1500$ machine, your grandchildren will be able to inherit it if you take care of it. That delhongi won't last two days further than the minimum required by guarantee.
For 1000$ difference in price, I wont buy those blends, there are zillions of others to try. So simple. Anyway, I have checked and there is some temperature control + you can get more if you turn up the steam making and turn back to espresso making. A "hack".
So, if I buy 5x Dedica (edit, just checked: 167 euro in my country, so it is actually 8x) for the price, and package them NEW for my grandchildren, this doesnt count?
Actually higher end ones are at 20.000 euros, so I will rather drink my 6666 espressos in bar, made by professional, on 20k euros machine with zero effort. I am good for next 18 years.
couldn't find official confirmation anywhere, but that looks like an arduino MKR WiFi 1010, which means it should have wifi for integration with home assistant or something. I realize that the overall process is probably too manual to fully automate, but you could at least turn it on and get the water heating in the morning, I imagine.
Although now that I look a little more, according to the quick start guide, wifi isn't yet enabled in the software, although I imagine that means they have plans to. Plus of course, with open source software, I guess it wouldn't be too hard to do yourself.
I like this thing! Would love to see James Hoffman review it
Honestly, it looks really great. Definitely more polished than what I was expecting from open-source/hacker setup.
I've been dailying a Breville dual boiler since 2019, and I've tried a few other machines at coworking spaces and friends' places over the years. For me, as long as I can hit 9 bars with a decent puck extraction, the machine itself doesn’t make a huge difference in flavor. The challenge is finding the right beans, and the fine-tuning through the grinder and puck prep.
It's not that my machine struggles to push water through consistently, it's that I struggle to nail the grind size, achieve even particle distribution, and tamp evenly. Mornings especially—I just don’t have steady hands right after waking up. Funny enough, my best shots are usually in the afternoon. Sadly I try to avoid drinking coffee past noon, so it’s often for someone else, and I just take a tax with a tasting spoon.
The way I see it, upgrading the machine helps with drinks per hour throughput, not single shot quality. I think that's also why the at-home coffee community is more into things like the niche grinder and blind shaker.
I would recommend to look for a manual lever - either Flair or Cafelat Robot, or models with a boiler like La Pavoni or Olympia Cremina if milk is required.
It is easier to adjust flow and pressure in many cases than grind size. Also you will notice that a flat pressure profile is not that good - you will see and feel when puck start to degrade and you have to go down with pressure. People tend to make science out of everything these days, but you can perfectly go by feel if you have immediate feedback. As a plus, all these machines are incredibly simple, robust and serviceable. The Cremina I've got is from 96 and has all chances to outlive me.
The only thing I really would pay attention to is ratio - is can shift the taste a lot between sour and bitter.
I love espresso. But I don't think I'd be interested in a DIY option.
I tend to use Nespresso, especially now that the cups are simply available in the shop (and cheap aftermarket options), it's pretty perfect.
I know the manual process is more environmentally friendly but when I wake up in the morning I have no headspace for fussing with coffee grinds. I just need good coffee right away. And I don't even own a car or anything nor have kids so my footprint is pretty low.
Just based on how horrible of a company Nestle is, I usually encourage everyone to investigate some other options to make espresso at home.
Side Note: Personally, making my coffee is a nice process in the morning to kick my brain out of that early fog, it's something I have to engage with, but also something you can learn and get _very_ quick at to the point where you don't need much headspace to do it, not every espresso shot needs to be 1000% perfect.
The ritual of making it in the morning almost wakes me up as much as the coffee does :)
I buy aftermarket cups (10 for 2 euro 50, less than half the price of their own cups!) and the machine is made by Krups. I use those same cups at work because they removed all the coffee machines and put nespressos in place of them. The reason was that the machine coffee was so horrible everyone started bringing their own nespresso machine (they had a really good deal at the time). So now they just provide those in the office. The company I work for is too cheap to pay for coffee for us.
But for me it wouldn't work to do it manually. My house is a huge mess most of the time and messing with grinds etc requires more space.
If you're using aftermarket pods then you should use an aftermarket machine too, nespresso puts the gasket required to build pressure on the pod itself, and this gasket is patented preventing aftermarket pods from having the same gasket design. Since the gasket is on the pod it is not on the machine meaning that stock nespresso machines will have issues with aftermarket pods. Some aftermarket machines have their own seal, which compensates for this problem when using aftermarket pods.
To chime in on the litany of reasons why this is not a good idea--sifting boiling water through plastic is not safe for consumption as plastic nano and micro-particles will leech from the plastic into the liquid. This happens by design when using these pods, meaning you are getting a small serving of plastic every morning, alongside your coffee. What a moronic design.
Espresso machines are made from copper, brass, and chrome. The chrome plating typically comes off quickly from the filter handles, exposing the bare brass to the coffee. All that stuff ends up in your coffee (where else should it go?). This means that espresso is pretty much guaranteed to contain copper, zinc, lead, chrome, nickel.
I'm not sure that is safer than the microplastics or aluminium from coffee capsules.
Fully stainless steel machines are probably the best option, but there are very few of those around (and they would probably still leak nickel).
The cup itself may be aluminum, but there is a plastic lining on the inside of the cup and on the inside of the lid that keeps the coffee from coming into direct contact with the aluminum--just like in canned foods
While it's likely not wrong that these things produce a bunch of suspended microplastics in your drink, we actually still don't know how unsafe microplastics are so I don't think you can outright state it is unsafe (not saying we shouldn't be worried about microplastics, I certainly am looking forward to more research on the topic to determine their impact because I am also worried, but it's just fear mongering to call it "unsafe")
Safety is a social determinant, risk is an objective measure. We have not been able to adequately quantify the risk associated with the ambient level of microplastics in the environment and in our bodies. But we have an overwhelming amount of data that risk does indeed exist:
> we actually still don't know how unsafe microplastics are
That's the problem though. We're all test subjects for a worldwide experiment to put microplastices everywhere and see what happens. It seems incredibly unlikely that they don't disrupt various mechanisms in the environment and our bodies.
>We're all test subjects for a worldwide experiment to put microplastices everywhere and see what happens.
Honestly, I think if you think about it and look around, we are test subjects for a whole swathe of worldwide experiments of various kinds. At some point you have to just realise that it's the cost of progress.
I am not saying that microplastics are harmless, but statements like: "It seems incredibly unlikely that they don't disrupt various mechanisms in the environment and our bodies." are baseless. It's unlikely that it does nothing, but it's more than likely (all things considered) that it's potentially worth the cost.
I wish I had a better reply than "deal with it" but you live on a planet with lots of other people and that includes dealing with pollutants you have no control over. All we can do is demand research be done on these things so we can progress while mitigating the risks as they come up. It would truly be wrong to just ignore microplastics and assume they're safe. But it is also alarmist to assume they must have a significant negative impact without any evidence for such a negative impact.
Think of it this way, while we don't fully understand how microplastics affect us, if they were shortening our lifespan by a significant amount we would probably already know about it.
> I am not saying that microplastics are harmless, but statements like: "It seems incredibly unlikely that they don't disrupt various mechanisms in the environment and our bodies." are baseless. It's unlikely that it does nothing, but it's more than likely (all things considered) that it's potentially worth the cost.
I don't see how you can evaluate the cost of using plastics everywhere when the biggest benefit is simply to increase profits for huge corporations that don't have to worry about cleaning up after themselves.
> But it is also alarmist to assume they must have a significant negative impact without any evidence for such a negative impact.
I don't think it is alarmist to decry putting microplastics with unknown effects, into literally everywhere, including people's brains and mothers' breast milk. It's an obviously stupid thing to do - "we don't know what this does, let's pollute the entire planet with it and see what happens".
> if they were shortening our lifespan by a significant amount we would probably already know about it.
That seems overly optimistic to me. There's plenty of nasty chemicals/products that were sold for long periods of time before we eventually realised the damage that we were doing. e.g. lead in fuel, asbestos in buildings, tobacco usage etc. We have already noticed the direct harm that PFAs cause to human development and yet you seem happy to carry on spreading microplastics everywhere without requiring any evidence that they are safe.
It sounds like you are the perfect customer for them but when your machine craps itself I would suggest checking out something like the Breville Barista models. I have the Pro version which has the grinder built in and I've found it makes far nicer coffees than the pods and there is minimal faffing around due to everything being integrated in the one machine.
I'm not convinced on autogrinders. One of my friends had one (A Jura) of 1000+ euro and the coffee was no better. Eventually the grinder crapped out and the replacement cost 3/4 of the machine price.
He's now drinking Nespresso like me :)
Breville doesn't seem to be a common brand here in Europe but I see it is a lot cheaper. Nothing like the 80 euro of a Nespresso machine though (which has also lasted me 10 years despite never descaling it).
The breville/sage machines are not "autogrinders" they're normal espresso machines with a grinder built into the same housing (which you can use stand alone) which you use to fill a portafilter basket and which you then need to tamp.
Machines which grind internally and produce a coffee fully automatically can be configured to produce decent coffee, but it's not exactly easy.
You can get a De'Longhi Magnifica S super automatic for ~260 EUR on sale. Quite reliable. More convenient than an a Nespresso. Cheaper to operate. Less waste.
What I tend to do is drink "half-caf", I take 1 pod decaf and 1 pod normal in the same cup. It looks like for this one I'd have to change out the bean reservoir every time (or mix normal beans with decaf beans somehow).
It would probably be cheaper though yeah. Even the aftermarket cups still cost me 25c. I'll have more of a look at it once my current machine fails (it's going on 10 years now).
What we do when mixing beans in our breville is we keep the grinder empty and only add beans after weighting them for a single serving. For a split-shot, I'd just add ~9g of caffeinated beans, pull a shot and then pull a 2nd one with ~9g of decaf, or more likely just mix 19g of beans and pull a double shot. It is more hassle than just using pods tho...
I’ve had a Breville Barista Express model for years and it’s been perfect. Daily use (4-8 doubles), easy to clean, very consistent shots. I’m definitely a fan.
Yeah mine doesn't work too hard, 2 doubles a day at the most and maybe 6-8 in the weekend if we have guests. But it has been great, I've had it for 5 years now and it hasn't skipped a beat. I'm not sure what reparability but I've got a few Breville appliances around the house and they have all been really solid.
After paying a monthly premium for my coffee-lifestyle of I'd say 100-200 EURs just by buying most premium sorts of beans for ages, not including drinking at cliché hip coffee bars of competition-winning baristas (face-tatooed mustaches are to be expected) and having endless discussions about taste and techniques with the average tech co-worker, I happily reverted to the one and only, un-hipersterable, supermarket instant.
I do know how good coffee tastes like and would say: It's not worth it.
Please add that last bit, as it makes the difference between a statement and an opinion.
I am happy for you that you tried things and decided they were not worth it for you. At least you took it a step further than a lot of people who hold such opinions about speciality coffee. But I think you should open your mind to the idea that the people who think it IS worth it are not just pretending.
Or maybe it is you who likes to feel superior to people with an interest in coffee?
e.g. "It makes decent espresso and the money, time and mental energy for getting a slightly better espresso through a more expensive machine is just not worth it to me."
If you think that time, money and experience can only produce a "slightly better espresso" then I will just say you are not experienced enough to make such a claim. Rather than accepting that maybe to some there is a big difference, you call them snobs.
I think I would agree that most people don't like their experience of black coffee.
Whether that's because there is no coffee or brewing method out there that, when served black, would satisfy them, or because they've just not had the chance to taste what they would consider good coffee, of that I am not sure.
People don't buy Nespresso for the taste, they buy it for the convenience. If it was actually a superior method of serving coffee, then everyone would use it. Alas.
> If it was actually a superior method of serving coffee, then everyone would use it.
If there's anything that "everyone uses" it's the venerable Mr. Coffee 10/12 Cup drip brewers that have dominated the US market for 40+ years. They're popular for many reasons, but today, superior taste isn't one of them.
People wouldn't use Nespresso pods if they found them to be horrible tasting, as you claim they are, no matter how convenient they are. They use them because they both enjoy the taste and find them convenient.
Most people like the taste of Nespresso pods, k-cups, drip coffee and Starbucks. The sales of all 4 reflect that.
You can actually get accustomed to the bad taste. It happened to me. But then I started drinking coffee at work again and out went my nespresso machine.
The only office I know in our work where the coffee is decent is the one in Paris where they have a real coffee bar inside the office with a real barista (and cost-price pricing).
But in all the other offices we just have vending machines that spit out horrible swill.
Or you just have different tastes. Your taste isn't necessarily any better. It is just different. I like brussel sprouts and many find them disgusting. Doesn't mean my taste is better than theirs.
They taste horrible compared to a good coffee, but they do taste better than crappy coffee shop espresso served in any country where espresso is not a common drink.
Plenty of people find them to be quite tasty and many people don't particularly like what you are calling good coffee. Coffee snobbery is like most snobbery it says more about the person being snobby.
I don't disagree about snobbery, but there's a huge difference between drinks such as instant coffee, drip-machine coffee and correctly brewed, fresh coffee.
I can't bring myself to drink instant coffee any more and will choose any kind of tea in preference to having to suffer the insult of instant "coffee". Drip-machine coffee at least uses real coffee, but in most people's hands leads to a horribly over-extracted brew and typically it's using supermarket-bought stale pre-ground coffee.
If you want to taste nice/good coffee, it can be made relatively cheaply. Buy some whole roasted beans (pre-ground coffee goes stale before it even hits the supermarket shelves), a decent hand burr grinder and an Aeropress device.
If you want to go for an electric bean grinder, ensure that it's a burr grinder as blade grinders are not suitable - they produce a wide variety of particle sizes which means that the small/dust bits get over-extracted and the larger particles are under-extracted. You could try sieving out the unwanted larger and smaller bits, but it's easier to just get a good grinder. For using an Aeropress, you can get away with a "cheaper" burr grinder, but if you want to make home espressos, then you probably want to be spending a LOT on a decent grinder as that will make the most difference to the quality of the espresso.
For a lot of people it is a difference without a distinction. Different strokes for different folks.
I myself make my morning coffee in a moka pot and prefer it over for example a pour over coffee. I recently got a Ninja Luxe Cafe machine which I use for espresso and fast cold brew coffee drinks. It makes decent espresso and the money, time and mental energy for getting a slightly better espresso through a more expensive machine is just not worth it to me. At my gitlfriend's I drink Nespresso because that is what she has. It tastes fine. It is definitely not horrible as many above have claimed.
I don't have a problem with people choosing to drink instant "coffee", but there's such a clear difference that and actual coffee, no matter the preparation method.
I'd agree that getting better quality espressos can get expensive very quickly, and moka pots make very nice coffee for the price (definitely diminishing returns for high end equipment).
To me, the best bang for your buck comes with grinding beans to order, as that means that your coffee isn't oxidising so much before you even brew it. Personally, I'm a fan of immersion brewing techniques, so an Aeropress is my weapon of choice - it's relatively cheap and can make outstanding coffee (also highly portable - I take it along with a hand grinder when camping).
And sorry, but I do find Nespresso to taste very flat and stale the few times that I've tried it. I'd rather just have a good cup of tea than a stale cup of coffee.
You don't know what I am calling a good coffee. I appreciate some people don't like particularly sour coffee because it's unusual for them but you can do a lot better than nespresso in the realm of that style of darker roast coffee too.
It's really simple, people are happy with it because actually good coffee is so rare that they have nothing to compare against. I also doubt most of these people have ever drank a well brewed light roast espresso anyway so I think your blanket statement about "many people don't particularly like what you are calling good coffee" is bullshit.
> I appreciate some people don't like particularly sour coffee
Is that normal in 'good' espresso? I've had some coffee from shops with a particularly sour taste and I don't like it. It's not really because it's 'unusual' to me, I just really don't like it.
PS: I don't drink it with milk nor sugar. Just plain espresso with nothing (just in the morning I do like it americano with water). I like the strong taste and I hate milk :)
Some level of acidity is normal in any coffee, an increased level is common to lighter roasts. You can get a good darker roast espresso which won't be very noticeably acidic or you can get a good lighter roast espresso which tastes like fruit juice. At that point it's a personal preference.
Or maybe they have tried it and don't like it. Maybe it is your taste that is screwed up and that is why you like light roast espresso. But either way even if Neapresso isn't the best coffee it isn't horrible.
The vast majority of people have not tried well brewed coffee. Of those who have tried well brewed coffee, the vast majority have not tried well brewed light roast. The main reason is similar to how most people have not tried well prepared food. The reason is not, as you seem to insinuate, because I am a coffee snob who is incapable of conceding that different people have different tastes. Another reason is because in most of the world people drink coffee with various inclusions like heaps of sugar (Italy) and heaps of milk (the rest of the world) and because, as a result, almost no cafe out there optimises for black coffee outside of countries like Italy.
Most people who drink coffee black (even in Italy) seem to do it either because they got used to how bad it tastes, or because of dietary reasons, or because they feel it makes them look more manly.
> Maybe it is your taste that is screwed up and that is why you like light roast espresso.
Again, you are assuming completely incorrectly and baselessly that I am claiming that light roast espresso is better than nespresso pods. I am not claiming this in the slightest. I am claiming that any good dark roast espresso is miles ahead of anything you can get out of a nespresso pod. Both in terms of not tasting like wood and in terms of not tasting like light roast.
Even petrol station cafes in Italy can produce much better results than a Nespresso machine and Italy continues to love drinking dark roasted Robusta/Arabica blends with heaps of sugar.
Likewise, any petrol station cafe in Italy can produce espresso which is so much better than what you can get in a Starbucks that it's difficult to conceive of why Starbucks even offers espresso any more. (And again, this is me talking about coffee in a country where people are used to drinking dark roast and would also likely be at least weirded out by the taste of light roast coffee.)
> But either way even if Nespresso isn't the best coffee it isn't horrible.
It's horrible in comparison to a high quality brew in the same way that McDonalds is horrible compared to anything you would get at a well respected high end restaurant.
You only think it's not horrible because you have limited experience. Yes, even in the realm of dark roast espresso.
Edit: I would also like you to consider the possibility that you personally (and maybe most people) simply do not have a sense of taste which is discerning enough to taste the difference between what someone with a more discerning taste would consider "good" coffee versus "horrible" coffee. This doesn't mean that we can't make quality judgements about coffees once they're above a certain level of awfully bitter/sour/astringent and unpleasant, but it does mean that maybe for you and for the vast majority of people, you shouldn't worry about "excellent" coffee and should instead just get on with your life.
I would like to just state that I am overjoyed to hear that you have found coffee you like to drink every day. There are lots of people out there whose experience of coffee has always been terrible (and it is my belief that most of them, with some help to explore, could probably find something they find inoffensive or even tasty). But rather than telling people who seem care more about coffee than you that they are snobs and their opinions of coffee are wrong, maybe you should also accept that not everyone has the same sense of taste as you.
I know the above sounds contradictory when I called Starbucks and Nespresso "horrible" but I would like to clarify things by saying that while I find Nespresso horrible in the grand scheme of things, if it makes you happy, you shouldn't listen to my opinion of it and instead enjoy it.
On the other hand, if you do find coffee to be generally unpleasant, horrible, or even sub-par, then I encourage you to explore and consider opening your mind to the possibility that there is a coffee out there that you would enjoy.
Every morning I make a coffee for someone I love, which I would personally not enjoy drinking very much, but which she enjoys immensely. I offer her to try the coffee I like, and on most occasions she is either indifferent about it or hates it and this is fine, I do not try to explain to her that she is wrong, I just try to cater to her particular tastes with a high quality coffee and preparation method that she likes.
> Most people who drink coffee black (even in Italy) seem to do it either because they got used to how bad it tastes, or because of dietary reasons, or because they feel it makes them look more manly.
That's a pretty big generalisation IMO.
I just like coffee black because I tried it one time (there was no sugar) and I was surprised how nice it tasted. The only time I drink it with sugar now is with the typical Spanish "cafe con hielo" in summer because the cold brings out the bitterness more. I've never taken milk because I hate it in general.
But I truly like it. I've always hated the starbucks "milkshake" idea of coffee and I like it strongly tasting.
It's not a generalisation, it's an observation, most people do not drink black coffee. Even in Italy. And most of those that do, when asked, seem to provide a justification not based in flavour.
Bingo. My barista opinion is that every Nespresso tastes like a Cafe Americano a-la Keurig. You can buy a $4 bag of Cafe Bustelo (pre-ground) and get both better tasting and cheaper espresso. If anyone in this thread is considering a Nespresso/Keurig, I'd highly recommend they consider a similarly-priced espresso machine for multiple reasons. Compared to ESE (easy serve espresso), Nespresso is the Juicero of coffee.
If you make it a long drink yes (which you shouldn't as it overextracts). If you run it on the short program it's pretty strong. At least with local pods here in Spain.
The main worst thing about Nespresso capsules is the waste and the staleness. The two worst things about Nespresso are the waste, the staleness and the expense. The three worst things about Nespresso are the waste, the staleness and the expense and supporting such a corrupt mega-corporation. Amongst the worst things about Nespresso... hold on, I'll come in again.
If you're not in a country where people regularly drink espresso then this is the problem you will find with literally every single non-specialty coffee shop. That being said, while crap coffee shop espresso is worse than nespresso, nespresso is still trash in compared to an espresso someone put in even 10 minutes of effort into dialling in.
I mean, Nespresso is also very popular in Italy despite it tasting strictly worse than anything you can get even at the worst cafes there but I think it's because drinking espresso with sugar is very popular in Italy and sugar goes an incredible way towards making a lot of mediocre espresso taste the same as good espresso (because the sugar is overpowering).
People in Spain don't generally put a lot of sugar in their coffee. They do often take a bit of milk though, not a lot (it's called 'cortado').
But coffee culture in Italy vs Spain is distinctly different despite both enjoying espressos. Italy takes their coffee much more seriously (and really, all foods and drinks in general). Whereas in Spain they don't really care so much. Like pizza with pineapple, or cutting spaghetti with a knife, if you do similar things with Spanish food (e.g. like paella with vegetables) people don't care - except the Valencians :)
It’s not the identical product but it’s fairly similar. Nespresso accepts their used pods back for recycling, and they are made out of metal and not just plastic, but they are owned Nestle and who knows how well they actually recycle that shit.
You also have to bring them back to a nespresso shop, or mail them, which is a hassle . So I'd be willing to bet most people don't do it. Some companies might, mine doesn't
They're serious about recycling, but many consumers are not.
I'm in Switzerland where recycling Nespresso pods couldn't be easier, and we barely reach a 2/3 recycling rate. US and global rates are much lower.
If Nestlé hadn't crippled their machines on purpose, I'd think third party plastic capsules might be a better option in Europe at least, since they end up in waste co-processing.
>If Nestlé hadn't crippled their machines on purpose
Nestle invented an entirely new way to brew coffee AGAIN just to extra lock down their pod system from independent competition.
The built all this wankery about spinning the pods at like 30k rpm to "force the water through the coffee like an espresso machine" but it _doesn't_. As Mr Hoffman discussed, the foam it creates is just aerated coffee, which is substantially different than the foam you get from actually putting water through coffee at high pressure. All this to get a patent on a physical process so that competitors cannot drive the price of their pods down.
And the coffee still tastes like shit. And the machine takes a long time. And it makes a stupid and annoying noise. The system is demonstrably worse than any other pod based system because it was more important to Nestle that they get their pod profit margins than you get acceptable coffee.
Like seriously this should be a crime, not a civil infraction, a crime to artificially lock out competition like this.
On the other hand there are plenty of cheap original Nespresso machines pretty much everywhere in Switzerland. In some countries Nestlé was virtually giving them away around 2010~2015. Shortly after, some patents expired and third party brands started selling plastic capsules, and Nestlé had to fight back and make their machines work poorly with these!
As far as I know all patents have expired now, and a few third party brands sell 100% compatible aluminium capsules.
There's still the proprietary secret of how they grind the coffee. Which nobody has successfully replicated meaning that all else being equal you still don't get exactly the same result.
That being said, from my experience with genuine nespresso pods in genuine nespresso machines, they taste nothing like espresso and nothing like a good coffee.
Those are the Vertuo line, I believe they focus to sell it in the US market, since it is able to do way longer extractions. It goes up to 500 mL extractions or so.
I don't like it, I think Original Nespresso tastes way better. Of course nothing compared to a good espresso extraction, but for a quick sip it is good enough.
> The first market was the office coffee service market," he said, adding he is "absolutely mystified" by his product's popularity in homes.
After reading this, the invention made a lot more sense. K-cups seem to be a better choice for outside of the home where someone might want a single cup on demand with no prep or cleanup. Like waiting rooms, offices, hotels, etc.
The current status, IIRC, is that recycling in New York accepts Nespresso pods, and in the rest of the US, Nespresso offers free pre-paid shipping bags which you can fill with used pods and drop off at UPS, who will then return them to Nespresso for recycling. They also accept pods at their store locations.
Not sure what the deal is in other parts of the world, if Nespresso is sold there.
If you're interested in experimenting with coffee drinks and technology, then why would you want to be stuck with buying the stale pre-ground coffee that's typically sold in the nespresso cups?
(In theory, you could experiment with grinding and filling a user-fillable nespresso type capsule, but you'd get so much more flexibility and quality by not being tied to that specific design)
This is the precipice of fourth-wave coffee. Bringing your desktop computer to a cafe, hooking it up, and remotely brewing a cortado somewhere, in a different time zone.
I was at the China Trade Expo at the Los Angeles Convention Center 2 days ago. A brand called Java sold automated espresso machines (huge, nearly commercial stuff) for $140. It made a great espresso as well. DIY sounds fun but I'd rather spend $140 and call it a day.
I recently bought a super automatic machine for only $350, and it doesn't include a steam wand (big plus for someone who never makes milk-based drinks). This seems like a fun project but simple off-the-shelf ones are really coming down in price.
Comparing a superauto to this machine is like comparing an iPad to a home built desktop PC, a smartphone camera to a DSLR, a Sonos or Bose sound bar to a modular Hi-Fi system, etc...
The superauto is more convenient, press a button, get a coffee. And if you put in decent beans, and follow the recommendations regarding cleaning/maintenance, you will most likely get a decent shot. However, it won't last as long, and you will be limited, that is, don't expect to get the perfect cup exactly like you want it.
This machine does not compete with consumer-level superautos, it competes with other E-61 "home barista" type machines, which you can also find off-the-shelf.
I think this is definitely for a different target market, as super automatics are generally not preferred by folks who I think would appreciate this machine.
Sidetrack: the website mentions "driving espresso innovation forwards". Is this a thing? I love coffee but mostly just use a french press or a moka pot (which are more "great old school tech" than "innovation")
Oh, yes. Look up the Decent DE1 to see what that means.
I will drink moka-pot coffee if that's all that's available, but espresso is what I want to have most days. So I have a good enough grinder and an mid-range espresso machine. It isn't always a success. Sometimes it's sour, sometimes bitter, sometimes too weak. Most of the time I don't have a clue why, so I can't address anything in particular, I can only try changing one of the few variables I can control with my setup, and hope to god that the other ones haven't changed on their own.
People are really serious about consistently producing real good espresso. Control and observability are what these machines offer.
If you want to fall into the rabbit hole Lance Hendrick's YouTube goes in depth into recent research and technique. And James Hoffman is a similar but more approachable source.
A vibratory pump is very good at controlling pressure as demonstrated by the Decent espresso machine the Gaggiuino mod and whatever that Rancilio Silva mod is called.
This is needed now that Gagguino in a petty bit of drama is no longer offering source code, and locking into hardware suppliers.
Gaggiuino Gen 3 is free to use and will offer free software updates, but the source code is no longer available.
This decision was made to maintain high standards for the hardware required for the project and prevent individuals from fracturing the community with subpar, non-standard components and processes that were untenable for Gaggiuino’s community-driven support to accommodate.
Honestly the whole Gaggiuino situation is so stupid it's unbelievable.
Let's use "Gagguino" to mean "the authors of the original Gagguino" and "Faceuino" to mean "the guy on facebook" just to make it easier to explain the situation:
Faceuino started selling his own kit based on the Gaggiuino designs with some modifications. Since the code and the designs (models and PCB) were permissively licensed, this was done at a profit. The kit came with instructions but unfortunately had some issues which caused weird integration problems which increased the support load for Gagguino.
Gagguino could have handled this incident normally: Reaching out to Faceuino to explain that his modifications caused integration issues which were causing a support load on Gagguino. And warning Faceuino that unless he handles support for his own commercial venture correctly that Gagguino will officially announce that Faceuino makes broken kits and that people wanting to mod their machine should follow Gagguino routes rather than go to Faceuino.
Instead, Gagguino relicensed everything CC-BY-NC, and started on some crusade against profit. Apparently some dude on facebook making a tiny profit selling in the order of tens if not (maybe) hundreds of kits was justification to relicense the entire project, stop development entirely, and start working on a locked down replacement for everything.
Now it's a completely proprietary project where you must buy the hardware from approved suppliers. The main control board can still just be normally flashed (meaning you could make a clone of it if you just make your own PCB). But the display unit (which now handles a bunch of the high level stuff) is a pre-flashed ESP-32 module which can only be OTA updated and you cannot flash from stock.
Now the website contains silly vague FUD like what you copied above. Meanwhile the discord has stuff like:
> *Pre-Activated Software and New LCD Units*
> The new software will come pre-activated on all the LCD units, which in are available exclusively through our official suppliers to prevent the scalpeing efforts some people are engaged into. We're launching with a 4.3" LCD version initially but a headless (no screen) version set to follow shortly after. Also considering a smaller LCD version for those who prefer a more compact setup while still keeping a always on system status in front.
What scalping? What is being scalped? What?
Why can't these people just be honest and state it outright: "We didn't realise what open meant and we think profit should be illegal so we're going to impose a bunch of silly restrictions to try to prevent anyone from making any profit on this mod."
I would respect that, instead you get crap like "This decision was made to maintain high standards for the hardware required for the project"
Thank you so much for breaking this situation down with such clarity. I've had the Gagguino mod on my personal project list for a while, and when I saw that they went closed source I was flabbergasted. Your writeup is the first I've seen that puts the situation in context. And honestly... it's tremendously disappointing. I may end up selling my old Gaggia classic rather than keeping it around just for this.
I mean, aside from the bizarre licensing decisions and the fact the main guy behind Gagguino is extremely abrasive if you ever interact with him, the mod itself works well, at least the previous version (which I have installed). If you get the PCB v3 (you can get it manufactured yourself, or get it from the various suppliers) then it's an amazing upgrade to the machine.
For the previous version (what runs on PCB v3), the code is there. The new version adds a wifi, a web server, a higher quality HMI, and a bunch of additional profiling features. You can get the same profiling features in the original firmware if you just write your own code, although that's a bit janky.
The old code is written in some pretty ugly arduino C++ and you will need to use platformio to build it (which has telemetry enabled by default, which you should disable[0]) and the architecture as a whole is very "EE grade" (anyone who has seen any quantity of embedded code written by EEs will know what I mean). But it's workable as a basis for your own experimentation.
I've been meaning on just wholesale replacing the firmware, the existing firmware is very simple since the concept behind the machine is nothing new as far as control systems are concerned (Kalman filters, PID, and a curve to map between the current pressure and what flow rate to expect from the pump per pulse so you can do flow control). Most of the hard part is tuning the (somewhat custom but not exactly revolutionary) PID which was done before the project was relicensed, as well as calculating the pressure/flow curves for an the vibratory pump (again, mostly done before the relicense, but not hard to replicate if you take a blind basket and modify it to be a controllable flow restrictor).
The main thing stopping me is the choice of the original mod to use a Nextion HMI which uses some awful proprietary GUI designer and a proprietary file format. I don't really like the idea of having to use a proprietary GUI designer in a project, and the Nextion is very limited (which was certainly a motivating factor in the Gagguino authors working on the new display).
Same here with v3 and now being flabbergasted that my "open" project is suddenly dead-ended. (Re)doing an alternative software for PCB v3 is definitely possible, it just runs into economics, at average hourly rate we would put into it it just cheaper to buy decent espresso machine and move on.
> it just runs into economics, at average hourly rate we would put into it it just cheaper to buy decent espresso machine and move on.
Ha! I never thought about it this way, you're probably right on the time cost. Although, while the Decent espresso app which runs on the android tablet front end is open source, the firmware running the machine itself is not (unless I'm wrong). But given you can talk to it over bluetooth I think it fits my concept of "good enough" as the protocol is implemented in the open source app and the firmware as it stands gives you all the control knobs required to produce any result.
That being said, the reason I even considered a rewrite is because I particularly enjoy these kinds of ridiculous firmware replacements. For example, I've investigated it for the possibility of using rust to do it, it would be quite a bit of work as I would have to probably contribute to the state of the art but I've wanted an excuse for an embedded rust project and the STM32F411 (what you get in V3 by default) seems like not a terrible chip to base it on.
Gagguino has switched to STM32U585 and it seems like it's also supported relatively well in the embedded rust ecosystem.
Thank you for this write up. As someone who has loved actually doing the mod, and using the machine afterword (hardware and espresso novice for the most part), I’ve felt like I am taking crazy pills following along as an open source maintainer in the past. The weaponizing of CC-NC is wild to me, though I think it might be coming a bit from the 3D printing STL sharing community.
It just all makes my heart hurt. It is a great accessible DIY project with amazing results, but just with insane baggage.
My thinking is that this machine appeals mostly to people who already has an espresso machine. It's not particularly technologically advanced. It's a single boiler, an E61 group and a vibratory pump. If you're buying this machine, you're probably replacing a machine at a similar technology level, and that's not really a sustainable choice.
A well maintained espresso machine has a lifespan in the range of decades. Many recent innovations in espresso machines is mostly controllers, sensors and actuators. Also better pumps. These are all things that can easily be retrofitted to an older espresso machine.
There has been innovation in other areas not easily retrofittable (saturated groups, dual boilers instead of heat-exchangers, to name a few), but this machine doesn't really feature any of those.
I strongly believe that in this particular demographic, it's a much better (more sustainable, cheaper and all around more fun) idea to retrofit new and advanced parts to the espresso machine they presumably already have, than to buy a whole new machine. We don't need old espresso machines on landfills.
On the off chance that a prospective buyer doesn't already have a similar espresso machine, this isn't too bad of a choice, and the price is decent, but on the other hand, there are a lot of used machines on the market that are looking for a new owner and can be upgraded.
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