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I expect this to continue to expand indefinitely. Tesla's going to end up being driven out of Sweden. Musk would rather (locally) bankrupt it than cave.



Perhaps the US can learn something about the power of labour unions from this.


It's illegal in the US I think.


By design, workers shouldn't have too much power. Then they might live an enjoyable life!?


Ever wonder why?


In 1947, after a strike wave triggered by postwar inflation, the anti-union Taft–Hartley Act[1] was passed by bipartisan agreement over President Truman’s veto.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act


Let me guess, unions were seen back then as a communist threat to national security, right?


You're being downvoted currently, but anti-Communist sentiment was absolutely a big factor in the erosion of the power of unions over the course of the Cold War years.


Even earlier, starting in the 20s if memory serves well.


Since the unions cooperate together this way, it looks like they can shut down whatever business they want to, especially since they can decide not to deliver packages and mail. Why should a union accept a company's terms at all? If you're powerful enough to shut down a business, what's stopping you from getting whatever you want, regardless of whether it's reasonable?


> Why should a union accept a company's terms at all?

So that people can get paid and produce goods and services for their society, obviously.

> If you're powerful enough to shut down a business, what's stopping you from getting whatever you want, regardless of whether it's reasonable?

Laws and contracts and as above the need for money and production, again, obviously.


The sympathy strikers don't risk losing pay, since they strike against someone other than their employer. Laws and contracts don't seem to be preventing the unions from shutting down Tesla's operation. The need for production doesn't seem to be preventing this either.


you mean, just like companies have it in the US? they also cooperate, to do things like suppress wages or fix prices. what's stopping them from getting whatever they want?


What the unions are doing in Sweden are apparently legal. The US has laws to protect against the things you're talking about, such as the Sherman Act and FTC oversight.


My perception is these laws are enforceable only in the most obvious of cases. It seems like you can go right up to the edge -- things like https://www.wired.com/story/silicon-valleys-exclusive-salary... or https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-r... (we'll see on this one) come to mind.


Perhaps Sweden will learn something about retaliation from the US on Swedish exports.


This is not even close to the first time something like this has happened. In denmark unions collectively crippled mcdonalds operations, with sympathy strikes disallowing deliveries, from dockworkers refusing to unload supplies and equipment, to construction workers refusing to fit out stores, to truckers refusing to deliver supplies and food and beverage workers refusing to work on supply chain items. Mcdonalds workers are now paid $22 an hour in denmark

Similar reason amazon simply doesn't operate here. Many other companies have learned the hard way: you simply don't fight the system, give fair contracts, and things work out okay.


Just treat the system as the system. Locate there if your business model works in that system.

If you plan on a "normal" employment model where workers get fired sometimes, redundancy is part of your MO, etc... don't locate to France.

If you plan on being union free, don't go to Sweden.

Walking in with declaration that "you can either have McDonald's or you can have your union model," that is so immature. I can't think of another aspect of business where this kind of thinking is acceptable.

Imagine doing this with building permits or whatnot.


It would be fairly stupid for a country to retaliate against another country because one of their companies failed to abide by local rules and regs. Not that it hasn't happened before but this isn't how you remain a dominant player in the market, such powder is best kept dry for when it is really needed.


Because Tesla doesn't want to make fair deals with its employees?


That's just a childish approach. Why would the US government retaliate? What is this? 19th century gunboat diplomacy?


You really think the US will go to a trade war with the EU over one of Musk tantrums?


You really think it wouldn't?

I mean, the US could have Europe by the balls if it wants to. How much does it cost you all if we pull out of NATO? (I know Sweden is not in NATO.)


Over Tesla? No way! The US didn't even go nearly as far over the Boeing-Airbus disputes.

Also, the EU countries field, between them and the UK, multiple aircraft carriers, nuclear subs (hunter-killer and ICBM ones), modern militaries (albeit smaller in size than during the cold war) and robust industrial base for basically everything. Surey the US quiting wouldn't be great, but it wpuld be an even worse self inflicted wound than Brexit.

Unless Elon ends up POTUS (after all, in Demolition Man they passed an ammendment to allow Schwarzeneger to be elected, so ehy not?), the US won't do nothing over Tesla whatsoever, now or in the future.


What's NATO got to do with it? Really these are absurd statements. The US is tickled pink that Sweden finally joins NATO and three weeks later they go and drop out of NATO on account of a business dispute?


> I mean, the US could have Europe by the balls if it wants to. How much does it cost you all if we pull out of NATO? (I know Sweden is not in NATO.)

Why would the USA want to remove one of its most effective soft power levers in the global scale? For Tesla? Lol.


Why would europe want NATO if the U.S. acts like Russia?


Sweden exports 3x more to the US than the other way around, and of those $15B in exports it's primarily critical infra like trucks, medicine, and refined petroleum. I don't believe the US would "retaliate" because Musk doesn't want to give his ~130 employees industry-standard packages in Sweden, but if they did A) it's not a huge amount and B) I doubt the US really wants to reduce critical infra to help a trillion dollar company strong-arm a union in another country lol


So, you're saying Sweden is relatively more vulnerable to trade sanctions.


I'm saying I don't think Sweden would be impacted by losing a tiny bit of its GDP in exports in order to protect its work culture, but I also don't believe it'd ever come down to that anyway.


Sweden is part of the EU, and thus cannot be sanctioned without sanvtioning the EU as a whole. And that is something the US cannot afford. In general and paeticularly in light of the wars in Ukraine and Gaza.


Either Sweden adopts US labour laws or sanctions?

This stuff really gets people worked up.

If Tesla doesn't want a Swedish location, they don't have to have one. There's nothing extreme or dysfunctional about Swedish labour norms. It's not France. Even if there were, that's Sweden. Tesla don't have to locate there.

Why are Tesla not prepare for this? It's not like they completely ignore permitting or environmental regs just because they're different from the US.

Tesla live by Chinese rules in Chin. That even includes the major task of making Elon shut the gob.

You want to operate internationally... everywhere is different. Not everywhere is suitable. Choose wisely.

If Tesla eats a major delay because they hadn't anticipated the inevitable... That's on them and it is bad management.


Can you cite any historic precedent for what you're implying would happen? To me it's not nearly the most plausible outcome.


This would be a _baffling_ move by the US, and hasn't happened in previous cases of American companies fucking around and finding out in Scandinavia, even when they were far more iconic American companies like McDonalds.

For practical purposes, the US also cannot just start a trade war with Sweden; they would have to start it with _the EU_. (You'd think people would've learned this from Trump's nonsensical attempts to make trade deals with individual EU countries.)


He certainly has a tendency to double down on his mistakes. Or more accurately: he's incapable of admitting he's wrong.


If that were true, Falcon 9 and Starship never would have left the pad.


Didn't Starship blow up the pad?

From what I've heard Starship had a lot more input from him personally, and isn't going as well as the Falcon 9 did.


Dismantling a market is expensive and cuts into budgets. There is also a lot of existing contracts that then need to broken, renegotiated and settled.

I suspect he will rather outsource those parts of the company. That way he can claim to not have changed anything but things can just continue.


As he should.

Don't negotiate with unions.


I don't understand this view. you come to a foreign country to do business. This country has an established set of rules that you have to follow to do business in it. You arrive and demand something that is not following these local rules, and then get mad because they do not agree? What am I missing?


Why?

Also, they're famous for being such huge failures in Sweden that the vast majority of workers are covered by them.

And look where it lead them... top 10 of most quality of life rankings.


Then he has chosen death.




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