When I was in my 20s, I drank socially from time to time and even occasionally by myself. As I've grown older, I pretty much stopped:
- I've found that the pressures of "adult" responsibilities (kids, real career, etc) leave little time for it
- I want to model good behavior for my kids, and in particular, I don't want my kids to see me drinking or drunk
- I'm in the back half of my 30s now - I've realized that the time ahead of me is limited - and I still have a ton of stuff I want to accomplish. Spending that time with dulled senses or on dealing with hangovers just seems wasteful and pointless
What exactly is the fear of dulled senses? What are you gaining by being a bit sharper on Friday night that drinkers are losing? Is anything actually lost?
I'm genuinely curious because most of the time the dulled senses bit is brought up it seems like there's almost always some kind of guilt on behalf of the speaker that causes them to feel uncomfortable with intoxication in a way that others simply don't experience.
I would guess the average casual drinker dismisses the person that is worried about "staying sharp" as being uptight or unnecessarily rigid, because as you said, life is short and who really gives a damn about being 100% cognitive all the time?
> What exactly is the fear of dulled senses? What are you gaining by being a bit sharper on Friday night that drinkers are losing? Is anything actually lost?
If I drink even a drink or two I can definitely tell a difference in my performance the next day. I'm a bit more lethargic, not necessarily as alert, it's harder to get on the treadmill etc. When I was in my 20's it was honestly the same, but I just had more energy/gumption to work against it.
I do drink, but I have to say I've just been getting less and less into it. I gotta admit I still really love expensive beers.
> I would guess the average casual drinker dismisses the person that is worried about "staying sharp" as being uptight or unnecessarily rigid, because as you said, life is short and who really gives a damn about being 100% cognitive all the time?
Dealt with this too - I really don't care about my public image. Anymore, I almost outright refuse to drink at work events... and if the social pressure gets too crappy I just go get some random drink and nurse it at half way for hours. This the only place I've been pressured or discretely judged for not drinking. The only reason I lie by nursing a single drink is because people will assume the worst - that I am/was an alcoholic (this has happened).
I'm just not here to impress, and anyone passing judgement about someone else's lack of alcohol consumption is a loser. Seriously.
One more thought - when it comes to being "100%" - yeah... I find myself wanting to be at my best more and more. I think it's just maturing a bit and realizing time is waning. Even the stuff I do to relax I've noticed is more enhanced by sobriety vs. with alcohol.
Very reasonable, made me consider my takes on your points:
- For me, adult responsibilities are mostly fine with a drink or two in the evening, but become orders of magnitude more difficult the next day. Being close to 40, the burden that a hangover puts on my mental capacity is just too much.
- I actually don't mind my kids seeing me drink a bit and being slightly tipsy. I kind of want them not to think of alcohol as anything forbidden or secret, just something that you do a bit sometimes to enjoy food and company. Looking forward to having a few with them when they reach the proper age!
- Fully agree on the last point. I hate having a hangover when my wife takes the kids out and I'd have a good few hours of getting something meaningful done ... only to lose the opportunity because I can't think straight.
When I was younger, I pretty much wanted to just get drunk despite the taste of the beer I was drinking. Nowdays I wish I could get the taste without the effect..
All good reasons! As a parent too I also feel like I need to be available and responsible in case of any emergency with my young children. I was never really a big drinker though so it isn't much of a sacrifice.
Couldn't agree more. I've been asked countless times why I don't drink, especially in the first year of university, and it always seemed odd to me that people even needed an answer. I'm not talking about people just making conversation or asking out of curiosity, but a vocal minority seem to make some sort of character judgement based on your sobriety if they're not satisfied by your response.
>I've been asked countless times why I don't drink [...] and it always seemed odd to me that people even needed an answer. [...] a vocal minority seem to make some sort of character judgement based on your sobriety if they're not satisfied by your response.
Whenever some asks me that, I just confidently tell them I'm pregnant while caressing my belly (I'm a dude), then everyone bursts into laughter, then we change topic.
Learning to divert useless criticism from trolls with humor and confidence, instead of feeling offended and starting an argument to defend my lifestyle choices, is one of the most valuable life skills I learned and has gotten me into places beyond my social status.
To be literal about it, it's because drinking is the default position, in the UK. The average person drinks. I'm an American and no stranger to drinking, but even for me, living there (in the late 2000s) there seemed to be a greater assumption amongst the people around me (with the huge exception of the many Muslim people) that everyone drank.
I'm not a big drinker at all (probably less than 4 alcoholic drinks a year), but I don't think sobriety is the default or even really the norm for most civilizations/societies. Alcohol especially is a social lubricant which is useful for meeting new people when you're younger and other countries drink beer and wine as a bigger part of their culture/tradition/socialization--but they also tend to drink less excessively than Americans. It's also a way for people to celebrate and blow off steam at the end of the week. I think alcohol has always had a huge place in society and I don't think sobriety is the default for most people--even if I don't personally enjoy it that much.
Or rather, because their tax revenue is suffering: "Taxes on alcohol accounted for 1.7% of Japan’s tax revenue in 2020, down from 3% in 2011 and 5% in 1980." [0]
> Becoming more intentional about one’s relationship with alcohol can only ever be a good thing. “It’s a myth really that you are boring if you’re not drinking,” Misell says. “As anyone who’s ever been sober with a drunk friend will know that when people are drunk, that can be extremely boring too.”
Well, yes. I've been working in a bar (and in charge of it) and drunk people are really annoying.
I always used to drink myself too for that reason (well, also because I liked to), with specific limits because I still needed to maintain order. I found it's actually easier to maintain order while drinking a bit because the interaction with drunk people is more natural and smooth. If you're 'dry' you're too strict and only triggering them more. But maybe that's just me.
Mind you this was in the mid-90s when things weren't as strict as they are now. Our bar was a private club and pretty much a dive and we didn't obey any noise, closing hours, or maximum occupancy regulations either. If we had a big party I'd wear a police scanner sometimes to hear them coming so we could turn the music down :P
I find bars a bit boring in general these days. No smoking, grumpy security goons everywhere, strict opening hours and drinking limits. Not to mention the closing of bars for almost 2 years. I really do feel for the younger people now. Because back then the going out scene was really important in my life too and later in life these things are different.
What the article says about the price increase is a good point though. Our place was extremely cheap and even a round for the whole bar was usually in the range of 20 bucks. These days alcohol is a lot more expensive. However soft drinks are usually in the same price range as beer these days so I don't really see how that would stop people from drinking alcohol.
FWIW I had several periods in my life with extremely heavy party drinking but I've never got addicted. Every time I was able to just drop it when my circumstances changed and right now I drink only once a month or so. I don't regret those periods at all and I wouldn't have wanted to miss them. It did help me socialise and stretch my barriers which I really needed as an adolescent. Because I was a lot more shy than I really wanted to be. It was really an invaluable tool to get 'out of my shell'. Alcohol is not always a bad thing IMO.
I always hated alcohol consumption and what it did to me if I abused it. But I'm really starting to see the benefits of alcohol sometimes.
I have issues with anxiety and depression. I have seen a psychiatrist and all the medication he ever prescribed to me had side effects worse than my actual condition. The only thing I noticed that could take the edge off without any major side effects were a couple of pints of beer.
Also, I'm trying to date after a brutal relationship breakup followed and a long dry spell, and Tinder makes me even more miserable and depressed so I deleted it, but I noticed some pubs in my city have lots of girls hanging around and sometimes looking at me. Without alcohol I probably wouldn't have the courage to talk to them as the anxiety would kill me and they probably wouldn't have the courage to stare at me. Alcohol seems to be this lubricant of social interactions. As a good friend of mine put it: "if it weren't for alcohol, half of us wouldn't be born and we wouldn't be here today", and he's right lol.
Us humans have a very long relationship with alcohol from the tribal days. Even animals love getting drunk eating fermented fruit.
Sometimes, if I have to make a very difficult life changing decision that triggers my anxiety like signing the contract of a new job or a lease, I think about it once sober, and once drunk, and if the decision of sober me and drunk me are the same, then it means it's the right decision for me :)
So if some pharma company could make a medicine that does what two pints of beer do, please let me know, as I'd like to invest.
YMMV of course, this is not professional medical or life advice.
And I do see the negative sides as well, where people with mental issues instead of seeking professional help or moderating their consumption, look for the solution at the bottom of a bottle, ending up as addicts and ruining their lives and those of others. To me, Japan, Eastern Europe and Scandinavian countries seem to have a real problem with alcohol abuse.
I also have had depression and it's very important to note that Alcohol while temporarily lifting it, will cause an even worse depression the next day. At least it does for me, like clockwork.
I've always coped with this by realising that it is purely chemical and ignoring it because it goes away by the next evening, but sometimes it was tough.
Still, it helped me fix the 'root cause' of being depressed which was being too shy to really connect with people and being lonely as a result. I still view it as a tool.
>Alcohol while temporarily lifting it, will cause an even worse depression the next day. At least it does for me, like clockwork.
Not for me. As long as I keep my empirically determined 2 pints of beer limit, I'm at that perfect sweet spot between my anxiety and inhibitions going away, while still staying mentally sharp and avoiding any negative side effects of alcohol. The best code and most successful solutions I ever wrote was when I was a bit drunk.
Remember to drink plenty of water though and have a healthily lifestyle of good diet, sleep and exercise. Also, the quality of the alcohol matter a lot. Cheap and shitty industrial alcohol will f*ck you up and you'll feel like shit the next day but good quality one (Belgian Trappist beer for me) has less side effects and can be more easily tolerated and filtered out by the body.
Yeah for me that doesn't work because if I stop drinking I get a splitting headache and that instantly ruins my social skills. Even when hydrating with other stuff, strange enough. With very moderate drinking I can hold it off for a while but it will still come. I also get this restless/irritable mood when I stop drinking which is also a moodkiller. Once I start I'm committed till the end :) At the bar I just used to stop a while once I started dropping things and that was ok.
I used to say: "I'm intolerant to small amounts of beer" :)
Of course after drinking a lot I get it too but by that time I tend to be asleep and don't really notice if I can sleep in the next morning.
You can also drink water, juices or non-alcoholic beer and cocktails when you go out to bars. Nothing says you need to drink alcoholic beverages only. As long as you're paying, bartenders are happy to tailor something non-alcoholic for you without judging.
>Does anyone still drink sugared sodas when going out?
Is this a real question? You don't ever see soda being served at a restaurant? I see it all the time and it's obvious people are still drinking it since it's on the menu at literally every restaurant.
The original question is in the context of a bar, not a restaurant. Obviously people drink sugared sodas at mealtimes. The question was whether many people are serially downing sugared soda after sugared soda in a bar context, keeping pace with the alcohol drinkers.
Yeah exactly. Even at meal times here in Spain most people drink zero by the way.
It's even more of a thing now that the Spanish government restricted airconditioning to 27 degrees (80 degrees Fahrenheit) which means that bars are really hot now (the AC setting is 27 so a full bar is much hotter than that). And I often actually drink because I'm thirsty. Taking that much sugar in is really a bad thing.
I mean the "you've had enough, go home" thing :) When I was a student this was only a thing in the most upmarket of bars. These days it's much more common as far as I've seen (mostly to other people, it's never happened to me, only been kicked out due to closing time)
It’s really weird how a generation that is more conscious of the downsides of alcohol is somehow portrayed negatively. Are people really that insecure about their personal choices in alcohol consumption?
I don’t see why a more deliberate approach to alcohol is problematic.
It's because of the fear that without alcohol, these youngsters aren't going to socialize. A very debatable position, but I really think that's what it is. People (like me) who felt, rightly or wrongly, that drinking helped make friends, have fun, meet romantic partners, etc. when they were young.
>It's because of the fear that without alcohol, these youngsters aren't going to socialize
I wonder if people who think that have ever been to the Middle East. Arabs are some of the most sociable people out there, and generally don't drink due to Islam.
On the other end of the spectrum we have the Nordic people, who will uncomfortably sit in silence until the fourth beer kicks in and everyone finally open up and laugh non-awkwardly. Must be the weather..
Is that why they think that? It doesn’t seem that weird when I see these really awkward youngsters on yt, reddit and Twitter. But that cannot be the actual reason; it’s probably just their parents who say it’s cool.
I'll say why I am. I don't even know what it's like to be under the influence of alcohol...and I love it. The type of social situations with a bunch of people laughing and tipsy is repulsive to me. I have been to a few such situations and it is universally a waste of time.
Sounds a bit like what you love is feeling superior.
I’m unsure if you intended for your comment to be condescending, but it certainly came across that way. I very rarely drink these days, but I also don’t judge other people for doing so.
If you've never been drunk, then I think it's hard for you to have any personal insight into the reasons other people used to get drunk but now choose not to.
I'm not saying you should get that experience. Better for you if you continue your abstinence. But you should probably check your attitude when discussing things you have no experience with.
I remember back in the days when I went to art school parties showing up to a party sober and finding everyone incredibly annoying. Then I… took steps to align my serotonergic system to the mood of the room (I showed up 45m late) and it turned into a great night with amazing people.
Alcohol was present but only in casual quantities… we weren’t getting drunk.
Have you ever been under the influence of other drugs?
I find the sobriety claims only as they relate to alcohol to be silly. Younger people are using other drugs at far higher rates than in the past, so the overall level of sobriety is probably not every different.
Isn't there a difference between not hanging out with drunk people and not drinking alcohol? Some people have a glass of wine with their meal, for instance.
Depending on where you live, everyone. Large parts of Europe have that. And it doesn’t make a difference. Getting plastered is when you need to watch out because then it gets repetitive and boring.
The unmentioned reason is that, even in the UK, cannabis use is growing. Given the choice between the two - especially with the gender differences mentioned - it seems obvious why people would choose weed over booze or nothing over both.
American here -- visiting the UK and related destinations .. it was astonishing the amount of drinking (and smoking) that was considered OK .. really, really too much drinking in many places I visited. If the UK can find a way to tone down the alcohol, that seems positive to me.
Question: Why has smoking all but been extinguished and is now viewed as gross and trashy (as it should), while alcohol has retained its glamour? Do governments need to start mandating pictures of people with alcohol poisoning on every bottle and can? Do restaurants need to start banning alcohol from their venues?
Certain forms of alcohol (wine & beer & formerly mead) consumption run deep in European (at least) culture. Like, almost 10,000 years deep. They're part of a bundle of cuisine and agricultural traditions. It is possible for most people to consume them responsibly and in moderation. Obviously there are outliers, and distilled and budget alcohol is trickier. But there is an avenue for "respectable" use of the commodity.
Cigarettes by contrast are an industrial product explicitly made to be addictive. I'd guess? at least half of people who start to consume them become addicted and it becomes habitual. (Though I should say I and others I know who 'smoked' recreationally @ college age at clubs etc never did become addicted, or quit fairly easily)
Tobacco itself also has deep cultural roots; ritually among indigenous North Americans, and also among post-colonial Europeans&North Americans in pipe tobacco and cigars. But that's not the same thing at all as cigarettes. I smoke a pipe now and then during the summer, and it rarely if ever leads to cravings.
Alcohol (ethanol) when used properly is a very effective medicine. It blocks several ion channels linked to disease, like the Voltage Gated Calcium Ion Channels.
The problem is not the substance but the culture which is formed around the substance.
My grandfather drank Vodka everyday of his happy life and lived till he was 98. I rely on Vodka as part of my medicine if if you take that away from me I will be very upset and sick.
Smoking makes you smell terrible even when you aren't holding a cigarette. Young people in America never picked up the habit in the first place because of anti-tobacco education, and not being desensitized to the smell, started gagging around people who still smoke. The smell, and the second-hand smoke issue, both make smoking viscerally offensive to most of those who don't.
> Do restaurants need to start banning alcohol from their venues?
Restaurants make more money selling booze than they ever made selling tobacco, so there is a lot of political pressure for this to not happen. Not just money from selling the booze itself, but from all the other irresponsible purchases drunk people make. Who's going to spend $25 for a ham and cheese sandwich if they're not drunk?
20 years ago, if you were over 40 you may have known someone, or known someone personally but secondhand that died from alcohol related reasons, maybe even more than one, especially considering drunken driving. But you definitely knew multiple people who died from smoking, and you almost certainly witnessed their slow decline through lung cancer, emphysema or other smoking related illnesses. In many cases you knew more people that died from smoking than all other things combined.
Also the benefits of smoking vs alcohol aren't even comparable, alcohol is the foundation of advanced social civilizations. Smoking let's you take short breaks from labor. It's was cigarettes in particular as well as social pipe smoking isn't / wasn't nearly as bad.
Big tobacco had a large portion of it's money and power taken away. Politicians probably also know what happened last time with alcohol prohibition and thus just toss it on the pile of things to hard to solve for now.
Smoking indoors has a direct and significant effect on people who have no choice in the matter. The “gross and trashy” attitude for an occasional smoker doesn’t really exist all that widely, but a few people are really into it.
The weird binge drinking attitude of Americans needs to be toned down but it’s really a cultural thing encouraged with the high legal drinking age and various inhibitions against, say, a beer at lunch. For most people there’s nothing at all wrong with light or occasionally moderate drinking.
This can't be a serious response. If it is, I think there would be more societal good if we put pictures of clogged arteries on restaurant menus from people overeating calories.
This article already didn't really interest me, so I don't even know exactly clicked on it... but when it came to the baloney on how "gender" is related to it, I'm sorry, I just couldn't read on.
Well, it's one person they interviewed, citing concerns about predatory men and vilification of women that are drunk. I agree that's a peripheral topic and not really a sobriety topic. But, the article doesn't seem to push it much beyond one person's reason.
That person said, paraphrased, that if a drunk woman cheats then the woman gets blamed for infidelity (implying it’s somehow someone else’s fault, maybe her partner or the person she hooks up with?). Yes, if you cheat, you are a cheater. Guess I’m too old to follow her reasoning beyond that.
Interesting. I've always heard a specific colloquial term for the metaphorical "pass" women have, but have never heard the same term or concept for men. It also does not match my experience as a man; look at incarcerations, women have on average shorter sentences for the same crimes.
I found out alcohol makes my pollen allergies go overdrive. Ever since I stopped drinking alcohol, my symptoms basically went away. This is because alcohol - along with some other foods - have histamine in them.
It seems to agree with this study: https://www.thelancet.com/cms/10.1016/S0140-6736(22)00847-9/... Looking at table S1, Western Europe, second-to-last column (male TMREL), 2020 numbers, the age range 20-24 should only drink 0.155 grams alcohol/day, or about 1 12-oz beer (US standard drink) every 3 months. This is pretty close to sobriety.
But at age 30-34 the recommended amount jumps to 1.48 grams/day or one beer every week and a half, and from there gradually increases until at 80+ it is 44.6 grams/day or 3 beers every day. So sobriety is good when you're young but when you get middle-aged you should start drinking for your health.
They have curves for ischemic heart disease, diabetes, etc. in Appendix 1. The data points are quite noisy but generally there's a clear trend and the J-shaped curves they used seem appropriate. I think given the multi-national nature of the study it's not just a correlation due to social drinkers being richer.
Once you stop drinking the hangovers get worse and worse. The pandemic removed the pressure to drink (for some) and now it’s really hard to lose an entire day to feeling like garbage in exchange for a couple hours of partying. I still drink one or two socially but anymore and my next day is a mess.
Sounds to me more like you don't eat and hydrate enough when you drink. If I simply have alcohol for a night and nothing else, of course I'm hungover; but if I stay hydrated and eat AND drink, I can get pretty intoxicated without much ill effect the next day.
> Sounds to me more like you don't eat and hydrate enough when you drink.
If he's like me, that's not the case. I've always drank tons of water after drinking booze. I used to not get hangovers, but as I got older the hangovers got worse. I took a few years break from drinking, and now when I try drinking a little the hangovers are worse than ever before, no matter how much I hydrate. Two drinks at dinner is my limit now. And no earlier than dinner, because it makes me very lethargic for the rest of the day. Three drinks and I'll be miserable for the next day too.
Agreed, it's got to be the hangovers. Being drunk is fun enough, but not if it means your next 1-2 days is ruined. People were shown another way by the shutdown of bars, combined with the proliferation of cannabis as a (mostly) hangover-free alternative.
Being drunk is fun enough? having had to deal with an OD'ing colleague, passing out, getting cold and blue, having to call the ER... After that I restricted my intake to only very few small drinks.
I've never thought it fun to get that drunk, but 4 or 5 beers is fun in the moment. I hate what it does to me a few hours later though, so I no longer drink like that.
I suspect that most young people in the developed world are introduced to alcohol by megacorps who just want to sell you as much fun as you can walk away from. That is quite different from being introduced to alcohol at an early age as something that is an intricate part of your culture and diet. Personally, I find fermentation fascinating and a walk through human history: kefir, kvass, berries, barley...
On a personal note, I find that most of the commercially produced wine and beer is of extremely poor quality. A few months ago I was researching a "high end" winery, searched for their land on satellite, and discovered that they were growing their grapes next door to a massive junk yard. Fortunately, the organic/bio movement for alcohol is slowly growing and I find the quality to be much higher.
I was thinking of Diageo but Heineken also fits. Festivals, clubs, and pubs often sign distribution and marketing deals with megacorps or their resellers. Pubs that stock local products or brew their own are becoming increasingly rare.
Having almost any alcohol will give me great heartburn in the middle of the night. I can't say quite when it started, but certainly by late 30s I noticed it, and by 40s... it became a thing to avoid.
I just stopped drinking because life is getting difficult and stressful with rife disease, high costs for everything, and a crashing economy that I need to be at my best. That’s probably one of the drivers of the trend.
This one time I woke up in Belgium without my wallet. The disturbing part though was that I had actually been awake the whole time, but had blacked out completely for 8 hours. The last thing I remember was looking at a line of shots around 9pm. Between 9pm and 5am I have no memory. My body was just doing its own thing. When I "woke up" I was already awake, walking down a dark country road. All my stuff was gone. Had to illegally ride the trains back to my home country. Would not recommend!
I work for myself. One morning I woke up very hung over and wasn't able to get anything done. I stayed in bed until 2 PM. That pushed to stop for a month, and then I just stopped.
Good for them; hope they are happy. Very much doubt that unfortunately. Something will take the place of drinks most likely. Hope it’s healthier but also doubt that.
As someone who doesn't drink alcohol, I'm quite happy with my life.
I'm not sure you could say anything took the place of it. I work in computer security (lots of alcohol use there). I go to furry conventions (lots of alcohol use there).
I live with the same group of friends I've had for 10+ years. None of us drink alcohol. We all have our own careers but none of us overwork.
The only notable difference between us and the social alcohol drinkers is we save a few hundred dollars a month that would otherwise go to a bar tab.
I know there are many happy people not drinking or using drugs and that’s great. I wish I would’ve been one. But of all students, 1/3rd seems very hard to not have any (most or significant) of those 100ks in the article to do something else that’s addictive and unhealthy; eat, dope, etc.
I don't know what to say. I can only speak to my experiences.
Alcohol, drugs, etc. just don't appeal to me. I don't mind if other people partake.
I'm sure a psychologist with 100% oversight into my life might cry foul on something. Too much social media, too little exercise, too much time reading cryptography papers, etc. I'm not sure how much that would overlap with "something else that's addictive and unhealthy" however.
Yeah, I know what you mean; I have that or more accurately had that but unfortunately I also discovered I really like beer and I like myself on beer. I am more creative and indeed social on it. I met all my clients and friends and girlfriends and wife on it. I read and practice formal verification for fun and I write interpreters for fun and I could just do that forever, but it is lonely. I am an atheist and the universe doesn’t give a crap wether we live or die so I try to mix my intellectual challenges with fun. In the end neither will move any needle anyway; most of us will be completely forgotten in 100 or so years, even with kids. So I try to do good and be nice; it just works better with a couple of drinks when it involves others.
I do 6 months on and 6 months off (0 alcoholic drinks) every year; I am far more productive in the off months but less creative and far less social.
Some don't drink for financial, health or religious reasons. I don't really care about any of those. I found I just don't like to be in an altered state. I will have a single drink every now and then if the cocktail looks tasty or a beer brew looks interesting, but getting buzzed has no appeal.
I'm 35 and I probably drink less than 4 alcoholic beverages a year. I am not really choosing sobriety--I just don't have time to be tired from alcohol and I don't actually find it that fun--and it's way too expensive.
- I've found that the pressures of "adult" responsibilities (kids, real career, etc) leave little time for it
- I want to model good behavior for my kids, and in particular, I don't want my kids to see me drinking or drunk
- I'm in the back half of my 30s now - I've realized that the time ahead of me is limited - and I still have a ton of stuff I want to accomplish. Spending that time with dulled senses or on dealing with hangovers just seems wasteful and pointless