Oddly enough I've been pondering the connection between Buddhism and games for a while now. The concept of "incremental games" and their fundemental pointlessness of the achievements therein brought to mind my layman's understanding of Buddhist teachings about attachment and loss.
Also - the presence in a various Buddhist traditions of "pointless tasks done with mindfulness" made me wonder where the line was between "pointless but beneficial" and "pointless and harmful". I tried to engage a Buddhist friend in this discussion but was hampered by my lack of knowledge about Buddhism itself and the partly-formed concepts I was struggling to give some shape to.
I recently somehow fell into a YouTube rabbit hole where this guy was speedrunning Spyro on PS1. It’s a game I used to play as a kid about a purple dragon. Spyro collects gems and kills enemies. It’s pretty fun. I thought it was incredibly pointless to keep speedrunning it day after day, but these two guys were talking in the video about how other games are just cheap thrills, but to them, Spyro meant something more: to strive to be better, to better themselves in life, etc. It got pretty deep. And they were really enjoying themselves. Sometimes frustrated, but often laughing or elated at new times. So positive. Then I realised that if heat death of the universe is our ultimate destiny (and certainly our own death before that), then life really is all about the journey anyway and I suppose nothing is really more meaningful than anything else. I don’t believe in god but I feel if god did exist, it would want us to enjoy our journey and be kind to other people.
"Meaning" is a human concept, and only humans can fill its definition. It's also an individual concept, so everyone has the right to write its own definition. So indeed, as long as you have any desire(s), you can walk a path towards them. Any desire is fine if it's fine to you.
There's one commonality though: we kinda have to align with other humans. Maybe you would be able to be happy meditating alone... but if there are others around you who find what you do weird and criticize you, meditating alone itself becomes harder as you will have to additionally be able to remain unaffected by the criticism you receive. In the other side of the spectrum, if what you do is enjoyed by many other people, you will more easily feel reassured that it's a good investment and that it makes sense to do it. Plus you will be more likely to connect with other people, which is like, the main desire for most people: no better way to feel that your life is meaningful than having others tell you that you mean a lot to them. And we kinda keep rolling in that loop.
So those guys have found each other and Spyro will have enough depth in some aspect that they can keep walking around it meaningfully (to them). It's all cool.
As you also hint, putting some effort to make others suffer less is also an interesting idea: suffering is kinda at the opposite side of happiness and meaningfulness in life, so reducing that is also another way to increase positively the meaningfulness score.
It's rather bizarre that we are so dependent on others to make a positive evaluation of our own meaningfulness. Like, it doesn't even compile in most languages.
But maybe god is ok with circular dependencies. Let's ask in the next code review.
> Then I realised that if heat death of the universe is our ultimate destiny (and certainly our own death before that), then life really is all about the journey anyway and I suppose nothing is really more meaningful than anything else.
And yet, some activities leave me feeling empty and others feel like they were time well spent. Is that distinction a genuine insight, or just another socially imposed arbitrary judgement?
Until you've learned to notice automated judgment and unlearned automatically running with it, it'll take more analysis to answer the question.
You may have genuine needs being denied by the activities. You may have unacknowledged trauma patterns matching with some aspect of the activities. You may have socially conditioned judgments moving too fast for you to currently notice.
Do you want a simple practice in noticing and unlearning such judgments?
It's very simple, and yet difficult enough that most won't do it by free will. The ones that do are very likely to have tried all other options.
Because it involves seeing things for what they are, changing perceptions, letting go, forgiving, facing pushed down trauma and all sorts of nasty, emotional stuff.
But the method is as simple as it gets: remove all inputs, stay completely still, close your eyes, observe your body breathing all by itself, and wait, and have patience with yourself, it takes practice.
It's very much like establishing a connection; the method will allow you to reach deeper from where you are right now, but with practice it becomes who you are. Self realization, or realizing who you really are; is a one way street, you can't go back. And it never ends, there's always more to discover.
You can get glimpses using psychedelics but from my experience you still have to do the work to fill in the blanks if you really want to know the truth. Maybe the more shamanic ones like Ayahuasca, but I count that as doing pretty intense work.
I'm assuming that you are talking about the practice of meditation.
If you are an avid practitioner, I have a question for you. I have attempted following some one-size-fits-all solutions before, Headspace and others, and only when I broke through the time limitations, and managed to meditate for over an hour, have I seen any progress.
My issue is that my ability to focus is not constant, and on most days I can't manage to get in the zone for more than an hour. Do you think there is any benefit to short bursts of meditation, or is the real treasure buried deep, and you essentially have to live in an ashram or a Buddhist temple and meditate daily for multiple hours to get to the level you are mentioning in your post?
Indeed, but the word means so many things these days and they all sort of miss the point from my perspective.
I stayed for six months in an ashram [1] way out in the middle of nowhere, I'm sure that helped a lot.
It takes more time in the beginning, time for the mind to wind down, time to figure out which way is up, we did 4h sessions every morning in the ashram and 1h sessions regularly during the day.
But every step in that direction; I feel that regular practice is more important; and quality over quantity, 5 minutes of awareness is worth more than sitting for 1h with your eyes closed and worrying about this and that.
I call this a Self-Healing Reality-Untangling Gesture (SHRUG). Here's what I did:
1) Choose to believe it's possible to joyfully abandon all judgment.
2) Choose to do so for some internally/intrinsically motivating reason(s). I chose to do it for science and for learning Nonviolent Communication.
3) Every time one hears, thinks, or reads a word with an opposite (the "trigger word", do this:
While performing a gesture that conveys uncertainty (I literally shrugged my shoulders while putting my hand out, palms up), say something following this speech pattern: "meh...<trigger word>...<opposite of trigger word>...meh...<reframing of what was said in terms of descriptive observations without words with opposites/judgment, related non-blaming/judgmental feelings coming up related to the observations, and the underlying human needs being expressed through the feelings>...<request for confirmation that the reframing was accurate>."
Notes:
A) It's very helpful to familiarize yourself with Nonviolent Communication and to identify feelings and needs. And if not, carrying around a list of feelings and needs (I find longer lists to be more useful to gain deeper nuance...if anxiety arises around long lists, sit and breathe through it...take time and patience with the process...learning new things often comes with initial frustrations and anxieties until one gets comfortable with learning new things without judgment/expectations. In a sense, discomfort from the long lists is good fortune because it gives an immediate thingt o practice with: "meh...long...short...meh...this human body is complex. I feel uncomfortable with not knowing what some of these words even mean and with taking time to process myself this way. I'm needing patience, to learn more about my feelings and needs, and self-compassion. This is definitely meeting my need for challenge and I can learn to enjoy the process, which can help meet my need for effectiveness in the context of learning."
B) If one recalls a time in the past when one encountered a trigger and didn't SHRUG, then immediately SHRUG
C) Maybe this can be done silently in the head or through writing, and I did it aloud. My thinking around this is the brain gets to process the SHRUG through both the initial thinking as well as through hearing it being spoken. Could maybe string all the things together, so writing it, internally speaking it, and externally speaking it.
D) Let people know you're doing this, unless you're wanting to also learn how to navigate people offending themselves because the initial part of the process involves dismissal of something they've said.
Another example trigger phrase: "That site's UX is so cool!"
Response: "meh... cool...uncool...meh... I'm noticing novel design patterns that are the opposite of dark patterns and feel grateful someone's out there meeting the need for mindfulness through their designs."
Another example: "I don't like seafood. "
Response: shrug "meh...like...dislike...I can learn to enjoy eating food that nourishes this body"
I'm noticing there may be a more nuanced and broader description of the shrug than documented here, based on my examples. I'd love help trying to tease it out. If people share examples of judgments they're wanting to let go of, I'm happy to give my own reframings to help clarify the general pattern. Coming up with really clear instructions most people can understand is something I want to do in the coming days ago I can really spread this thing around.
Do this every day for a month and then let me know what effects the process has had. I'm the only person I know who's done this and it was incredibly transformative. Especially helpful in accepting things a person under the age of 3 might do. I don't want to go into detail about the effects I experienced because I'm wanting to see what happens without setting expectations.
Feel free to reach out to me through social media, email, and/or phone for support.
It is probably evolutionary imposed judgement. Probably the activities which left you empty neither increased what you think your status among society or close peer group is, nor did they help spreading your genes.
Heat death is one theory. I ascribe to the theory that, the fact that cosmic inflation has separated some galaxies by far more than 13.7 billion light years.. then that degree of ‘causal separation’ is proof that structure, complexity, and richness is our future, rather than fatal cosmic homogeneity.
Cosmic inflation and gravitation have worked together to produce incredible amounts of ever-increasing structure and complexity in the universe.
The universe may be quite unlike a closed system like a box full of idealized gas particles - where the traditional analysis of entropy has its roots.
I get a bit dismayed whenever I see folks say that the prophecy of heat death is a lesson they use to influence the resigned destiny of their lives.
Consciousness exists in part to stay the heat death by way of clever manipulation of the natural world. We are here to save the universe, and our first lesson on loss starts with planet earth.
>heat death of the universe is our ultimate destiny
We have bigger and more urgent and realistic fish to fry before worrying about heat death. Insofar as you care about the health and well-being of humanity as a whole, and the biosphere in which we are embedded, then you cannot let yourself zoom out so far in ethical concerns, or else you become effectively antisocial.
We have nested problems at the global, national, and local level that all need attention. But of course it is relatively easy to get to the bleeding edge of Spyro speed-running than it is to get to the bleeding edge of solving real-world problems that have faced humanity, in one form or another, for thousands of years.
Life is partly about the journey, but if a side effect of your life is to chew up the biosphere to make cool new toys and experiences for you, then yes, I think you're better off taking up Spyro. Even better, though, if you recognize a challenge that some larger group faces, and apply yourself to solving that, at least part time.
I would argue that the leading problem facing humanity is humanity. (Evidence: the last century is more than adequate.) Our supposed best were using their combined wisdom to create atomic weapons (regardless of the ecological problems created). One of them reportedly recalled the phrase 'I am become death' from the Gita in reponse to seeing what he'd wrought ... suggesting a distressing fatalism.)
If harmless distraction works, yeah, maybe we'd better go with that ... until mindful leadership emerges. (Breath-holding is discouraged.)
What do you mean? The expansion of the sun, or a meteor strike, or a caldera explosion, something like that? Well, yes of course those are all likely on some large time scale, but they are entirely out of our control. Meanwhile we have every likelihood of having a 1M year existence, as a species embedded in a biosphere, if we can "get on the same page" with respect to our behavior. I propose that we adopt the universal rule that we all act "consistent with our survival, and that of our species" in an exact analogue to Issac Asimov's Zeroeth law of robotics. It is a small jump from that to the protection of the biosphere in general, if you are willing to ignore the strong emotional pull of science fantasy narratives that imply that we can survive without it.
There's just absolutely no evidence to support this statement. We don't know enough about meta/xeno-biology to say that life isnt a self-sustaining phenomenon in a thermodynamic sense. It may be that human-like "intelligence" is actually an emergent phenomenon, not unlike cancer, that has the potential to disrupt an otherwise homeostatic set of processes.
I think he was referring to the eventual expansion of our star such that our orbit is smaller than its diameter. Of course that's no excuse to be a jerk in the meantime.
I'd like to see a list of games the Buddha would play, as I don't think it would contain anything unless the game somehow pertained to discernment of the nature of suffering or the extinction of the cycle of rebirth.
Outer Wilds is a gem! Very much looking forward to release on Switch, though it seems to have been delayed, since it was supposed to have been released this month. Haven't played the DLC, but I'm looking forward to it sometime in 2022!
snakes and ladders seems a candidate, if it dates back that far.
“The game was popular in ancient India by the name Moksha Patam. It was also associated with traditional Hindu philosophy contrasting karma and kama, or destiny and desire. It emphasized destiny, as opposed to games such as pachisi, which focused on life as a mixture of skill (free will) and luck.” … “ The morality lesson of the game was that a person can attain salvation (Moksha) through doing good, whereas by doing evil one will be reborn as lower forms of life. The number of ladders was less than the number of snakes as a reminder that a path of good is much more difficult to tread than a path of sins. Presumably, reaching the last square (number 100) represented the attainment of Moksha (spiritual liberation).”
I think that would be eliminated by rule 3: "Games of marking diagrams on the floor such that the player can only walk on certain places" since the pieces are really just representations of the player.
Those would be games you play with your mind in deep concentration. In Buddhism deep concentration is tool not a goal itself. The bliss you get from deep concentration was the only distraction that can be beneficial. Doing some specific exercises is sometimes called as "games".
Any flow state you can get into with games is not very interesting compared to fiddling with your own mind.
Yeah, that's the first one that came to mind. Sekiro as well, which explicitly has Buddhist themes and imagery too. I wouldn't say it's specifically a Buddhist game, but it absolutely has the themes of life, rebirth, and suffering.
Monopoly is essentially a stationary Markov process. Decisions are so simple and clear that they essentially don’t matter to this characterization. I doubt the Buddha would find much of the nature of suffering in what is essentially a deterministic mathematical process. Any suffering created by playing Monopoly is really coming from within the players themselves. But, we can say that about most suffering, so there is no reason to play Monopoly to begin with, if all you desire is to know the nature of suffering....
This reminds me so much of Jorge Luis Borges' Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge that I wonder if he was inspired by this list. In it he lists 14 purported categories of animal:
1. those that belong to the Emperor,
2. embalmed ones,
3. those that are trained,
4. suckling pigs,
5. mermaids,
6. fabulous ones,
7. stray dogs,
8. those included in the present classification,
9. those that tremble as if they were mad,
10. innumerable ones,
11. those drawn with a very fine camelhair brush,
12. others,
13. those that have just broken a flower vase,
14. those that from a long way off look like flies.
I'm tempted to think that Buddha made some rules just to challenge his disciples and see if they actually understood the message. Like the Zen monks who love messing with their students. Except some knobhead took it seriously and remembered it and his disciples then codified it.
If it were a knobhead that codified it, though it would have been some rare kind, where his result is good enough to get the message through, if you stop to think about it for five minutes. That's an improbably good result, for a knobhead.
I'm joking. Buddhism involves the ever moving mind so any game that forces you to stop in the moment is against the philosophy.
It's the case that when asked what is buddhism one must raise his fist; when asked what is the meaning of life one must say a cherry tree; the response isn't important but that there be no stopping of the mind is of the essence.
Like where should I put my mind? Nowhere. That kind of thing.
I'm confident they were mired in superstition, like all cultures, and since we only focus on what has been tested and distilled over time, there is a tendency to think they were Ancient Wise Ones Without Flaws.
Can you build your life and friends around that? Then it's a real game, the kind people play seriously.
Buddha talked about the games that put you in a magical forest of your own, using your mind to trip for the play of it. Buddha wouldn't play recorded music.
Recorded music is not happening. Buddha would take up a flute and jam with a band though.
So is your gaming more like recorded music listening activity, or more like something to bring people together and organize your life around?
I enjoy playing Sniper Elite 4. I think the Buddha would have been intrigued by it, too. It is a meditation on the impermanence of existence. If you play it enough you wake up to the futility of endless struggle.
I’m sure Krishna would have approved, in any case. He said “one imagines he is the slayer, the other, the slain. Both are deceived.” Yes. Because it’s all virtual. It’s all a journey.
Games of marking diagrams on the floor such that the player can only walk on certain places. … Rhys Davids suggests that it may refer to parihāra-patham, a form of hop-scotch
As kids we have played a game like this, called “the sun” (aka knives-grounds). One draws two concentric circles in a dirt/sand, one ~40cm (the sun), another one 1.5-2m in diameter, and splits this ring into few equal sectors, similar to chrome icon. Then everyone’s turn is to throw a knife into an adjacent enemy territory so that it sticks (1 attempt; everyone gets out for safety but the one who throws - they must stand in their area). You cut their territory along the orientation of the knife in two parts and join the lesser to yours. If a player become cut from the sun, he throws a knife blind. The one who can’t stand on their territory long enough to throw a knife loses. Hop-scotch was mostly played by girls cause they didn’t wear a knife.
There were many variations, and if you’re curious yes I’m oldtime russian.
We were repeatedly banned from playing "Stretch". 2 players stand facing each other with their feet together. They take turns throwing a knife into the ground, and their opponent must move the closest foot sideways so that it is in-line with the knife. If the knife doesn't stick in the ground the opponent puts their feet back together. First person to fall over loses.
I'm sure everyone had their own rules, and this was not that long ago (surely!) in Australia.
That sounds very fun :D It very roughly reminds me of what I used to play as a kid in Sweden, which was called "Land and country", though it had a lot less knives.
Each player started with a sector ("country") of a slightly larger circle (~3m diameter), taking turns in order to throw a small stick/shovel into some other country, thus declaring "war" on them. The person who gets "attacked" has to step on the thrown item with everyone else trying to run away as far as possible. Once the item has been stepped on, the attacked person tries to throw the item at a player of their choice. If they hit, they get to "annex" as large a region of that country as they can without lifting either foot from some starting position in their home country.
It always was my favorite game despite apparently not being Buddha-friendly :)
This reveals a bit how the Buddha, like other religious leaders throughout history, sought to control the behavior of his followers and decide where they should derive their joy from.
It feels like this sort of prescriptive thinker is exactly the type of person we should not listen to. Why should we think their moral compass / philosophy is better guided than our own? If a certain form of game is fun and not harming others, why not continue it?
Edited: removing “self-important” description as it was unnecessarily negative to make my point
This isn't aimed at all of his followers (monastic and lay), just at the monks. Here's the quote from Brahmajāla Sutta:
> “Or he might say: “Whereas some honourable recluses and brahmins, while living on food offered by the faithful, indulge in the following games that are a basis for negligence: [...]
In other words, if you've giving up everything you own to live as a monk and only eat because of the generosity of others, you shouldn't waste time with things that aren't useful for spiritual development. If you're a layperson, do what you want.
Based on the surrounding context of the quote, it seems like this is an elaboration of the 7th of the 8 precepts, which also prohibits other forms of entertainment. The 8 precepts are followed by monks and occasionally by lay people during periods of intense practice like retreats, but during daily life, lay people follow the 5 precepts which don't prohibit entertainment.
> If a certain form of game is fun and not harming others, why not continue it?
In Buddhist terms (as I understand them), even if something is fun, it is transient. Impermanent. Eventually you'll beat the game, or it will end, and what are you left with? A replay? A new game? It only results in craving more and more -- more games, more things.
The Buddha would, I think, argue that this sort of 'clinging' is a form of suffering. Without those things, sitting alone in a room with your eyes closed and only your own self for company, how do you feel? Do you feel comfortable with your self -- knowing who you are and your place in the universe?
I think the Buddha would argue a self-sufficient happiness, as his system teaches you to realise, is more sustainable, since it is not based in any particular 'thing' (like games), but instead in an understanding of yourself and your place in the universe.
I don’t have anything against the Buddha, but I don’t like the moralization throughout history of different things that people enjoy — e.g. games or certain types of books and visual art.
This is happening today with video games to some extent.
Yes, in numerous places in the Tipitaka, especially including the sutta I quoted in my top-level comment, Shakyamuni expounded the doctrine that Buddhism can be tested empirically in this life, contrasting Buddhism with other meditative traditions that ask you to take them on faith and promise evidence after you die.
Moralization, as you put it is a fundamental question most humans have at some point.
Is this thing/activity/etc good/bad/neutral?
Additionally, any group of people basically ask the same question with the added problem of should we allow it in our group.
Few people have a problem with individuals and society moralizing about murder.
However, as you note, throughout history there's clearly been a tendency for this moralizing to become weaponized as control mechanisms for hierarchal power. In essence, "good" becomes defined as "does nothing to upset the powerful".
Video games get modern hate for two basic reasons. 1) They're new/different 2) They encourage people to spend time in ways that don't directly support and sometimes directly challenges the current paradigm.
The biggest complaint is that they're a waste of time, but honestly I think most of the ire is that they're just not as profitable. For example, TV used to be fairly negatively seen, but as they became a key part of maintaining our consumer society (via ads), complaints for them went down. As video games become more revenue focused, it seems complaints for them are lowering.
On the reverse side, I think humans could use more moralizing. Not the pearl clutching way, but a more steadfast dedication and education in good ethical systems. Of course, the trick is determining what a good ethical system is.
To a religious leader a few hundred years back, a 'game' is something totally different from what you and I know as a game. For instance: if you're leading men, and for some reason they're getting drunk and 'gaming' (hazard/dice/whatever) between each other, then that probably might be leading to real internal strife, conflict, violence, desperation etc. It would make sense in that reality, for a leader to subscribe and to propagate teachings/philosophies/doctrines which cut off that possibility.
It's not something I 'like' much either, but it's super interesting to think about why various things were 'banned' (or encouraged!) in different historical realities. These things weren't done by stupid people for stupid reasons.
The video/computer games we have today frequently serve as literature: a source of wisdom, means of companionship, educational simulations of reality. They're a powerful form of art/influence, and we're already seeing some authoritarian states ban or prohibit them.
Video games nowadays are also really good at hacking people’s dopamine system. Trying to entice people to spend as much time and money as possible. The most important thing is self awareness. Know what a game is doing to you and decide if that is beneficial.
> Why should we think their moral compass/philosophy is better guided than our own? If a certain form of game is fun and not harming others, why not continue it?
Well, it might be better guided than our own; certainly old Shakyamuni made that claim on thousands of occasions, and a lot of people are reported to have agreed with him about it. I have found that sometimes I learn things by listening to other people, or trying things they recommend, because sometimes they know things I do not.
With respect to not harming others, Shakyamuni did spend a lot of time talking about how it's very important to not harm others (sometimes to an extreme unmatched even by the Jains), but Buddhists believe that not harming others is the beginning of virtue, not its highest expression.
(I'm no expert on Buddhism — I think I haven't even reached the first jhana, though I've had some vaguely similar experiences — but I've read enough of the Tipitaka that I'm pretty confident that I'm faithfully representing what it says in this case.)
Also Buddha: "That is why you should not get caught in the idea that this is the Dharma or that is not the Dharma. This is the hidden meaning when the Tathagata says, ‘Bhikshus, you should know that the Dharma that I teach is like a raft.’ You should let go of the Dharma, let alone what is not the Dharma.”" [1]
Depending on where you are on the path and what your practice is, it probably makes sense to avoid game playing. For others, maybe not. Buddhist teaching invites you to sit and investigate on your own.
This is a bit like saying: don't trust cardiologists. They tell you what you should and should not eat. If a certain food is tasty and not harming others, why not eat it?
Presumably you only listen to their advice if you trust that they're seeing something you're not (yet). It's not "seeking to control," it's advising.
There's an order of importance to teachings, and this one falls somewhere below letting go of attachments to rules. Buddhism teaches the importance of avoiding getting caught up with either opinions or rituals for their own sake. Any prescriptive thinking loses its usefulness when it becomes an end rather than a means of reaching liberation.
On the other hand, thinking that there's a better moral philosophy than whatever ideas we currently have is highly encouraged, unless one is a Buddha. If we have already reached the peak of morality, there's no reason to look to the teachings of others, but if we feel that we still have room for improvement, it's worth looking into the teachings of others who demonstrate wisdom.
I don't think the world Self-Important means what you think it means. While I'm not religious, these are thinkers whose works are probably the longest surviving works of thought. This is just being facetious.
Imagine you think video games are a waste of time, or that a certain food type shouldn’t be eaten because it’s unhealthy or unclean.
Those are fine opinions to hold personally, but obviously many people may disagree. The self-importance I meant is when you think your opinions are more important than those of others and try to control their behavior.
FWIW— I’ve since edited the post because I think that wording makes it seem unnecessarily negative on my part.
Some people are more perceptive or knowledgable than others. Not all opinions are equal. You can't easily dismiss the idea that one can learn from others.
I don't dispute the existence of "false teachers" or the harm done by fossilized belief systems but your argument doesn't convince me that there's not a baby being tossed out with that bathwater.
Also - many esoteric or philosophical traditions engage with exactly this problem - the tension between the need for a teacher and the fact that many insights can only be arrived at through personal experience. This dichotomy is a huge part of the millenia old debate on such matters.
To me, it's just a spiritual leader advising his followers (I would venture mostly monks) that if they want to reach enlightenment, they should not be fooling around with games. The Buddha knew ordinary people minds, so his compass was better guided - assuming that you buy into the Buddhist premise, he knew how to put an end to our suffering.
Besides, Buddhism has many many facets, the teachings vary and may seem to contradict to the untrained eye, so don't read too much into it.
> The Buddhist games list is a list of games that Gautama Buddha is reputed to have said that he would not play and that his disciples should likewise not play, because he believed them to be a 'cause for negligence'.
By “cause for negligence”, I’m assuming that could mean that you might neglect your worldly / spiritual duties.
It sounds right but I'm still dumbfounded as to why these particular games. I'd imagine games, of all sorts, could be categorized as "cause for negligence" with this rationale, no?
It's a koan. The Bhudda would play all of those games, because the games themselves are not the cause for negligence, but the attachments and importance that people give the games can create a cause for negligence. Part of the lesson/joke is that he pretty much lists anything and everything that could be considered a game.
How do you come to that conclusion? As I recall, koans are from the Chinese, Japanese, etc., schools of (Mahayana) Buddhism -- specifically zen. But the linked article specifically states that these are from early texts (which would be more aligned to Theravada/pre-split).
It is most certainly not a koan. It is not a thing to put you in a state were you can understand a thing.
It is a teaching. It actually tells you what to think, and how to get there.
He talks about negligence, not attending. And then he lists a bunch of games, the last of which is "imitating deformities". That example alone should get you thinking about misusing your purpose, about using the mind to escape and not be present. Inventing dragons to fight. All that.
I mean, it's all there, if you think about it for five minutes.
“Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in faith, remain addicted to damaging seed and plant life such as these—plants propagated from roots, stems, joints, buddings, and seeds—he abstains from damaging seed and plant life such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
“Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in faith, remain addicted to consuming stored-up goods such as these—stored-up food, stored-up drinks, stored-up clothing, stored-up vehicles, stored-up bedding, stored-up scents, and stored-up meat—he abstains from consuming stored-up goods such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
“Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in faith, remain addicted to watching shows such as these—dancing, singing, instrumental music, plays, ballad recitations, hand-clapping, cymbals and drums, magic-lantern scenes, acrobatic and conjuring tricks, elephant fights, horse fights, buffalo fights, bull fights, goat fights, ram fights, cock fights, quail fights; fighting with staves, boxing, wrestling, war-games, roll calls, battle arrays, and regimental reviews—he abstains from watching shows such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
“Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in faith, remain addicted to heedless and idle games such as these—eight-row chess, ten-row chess, chess in the air, hopscotch, spillikins, dice, stick games, hand-pictures, ball-games, blowing through toy pipes, playing with toy plows, turning somersaults, playing with toy windmills, toy measures, toy chariots, toy bows, guessing letters drawn in the air, guessing thoughts, mimicking deformities—he abstains from heedless and idle games such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
“Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in faith, remain addicted to high and luxurious furnishings such as these—over-sized couches, couches adorned with carved animals, long-haired coverlets, multi-colored patchwork coverlets, white woolen coverlets, woolen coverlets embroidered with flowers or animal figures, stuffed quilts, coverlets with fringe, silk coverlets embroidered with gems; large woolen carpets; elephant, horse, and chariot rugs, antelope-hide rugs, deer-hide rugs; couches with canopies, couches with red cushions for the head and feet—he abstains from using high and luxurious furnishings such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
“Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in faith, remain addicted to scents, cosmetics, and means of beautification such as these—rubbing powders into the body, massaging with oils, bathing in perfumed water, kneading the limbs, using mirrors, ointments, garlands, scents, creams, face-powders, mascara, bracelets, head-bands, decorated walking sticks, ornamented water-bottles, swords, fancy sunshades, decorated sandals, turbans, gems, yak-tail whisks, long-fringed white robes—he abstains from using scents, cosmetics, and means of beautification such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
“Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in faith, remain addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these—talking about kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, and talk of whether things exist or not—he abstains from talking about lowly topics such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
“Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in faith, remain addicted to debates such as these—‘You understand this doctrine and discipline? I’m the one who understands this doctrine and discipline. How could you understand this doctrine and discipline? You’re practicing wrongly. I’m practicing rightly. I’m being consistent. You’re not. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You’re defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine; extricate yourself if you can!’—he abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
“Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in faith, remain addicted to running messages & errands for people such as these—kings, ministers of state, noble warriors, brahmans, householders, or youths (who say), ‘Go here, go there, take this there, fetch that here’—he abstains from running messages & errands for people such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
“Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in faith, engage in scheming, persuading, hinting, belittling, & pursuing gain with gain, he abstains from forms of scheming & persuading [improper ways of trying to gain material support from donors] such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.”
Thank you for posting this. I feel like it gives a better context. My interpretation is that the focus is on monks (as opposed to lay people) in that they might be preaching about their virtues while continuing to have vices and earthly desires. This makes sense in a religion in that you’d want your monks to strive for something like “ideal” behaviour (even if it’s not reachable) otherwise what is the point of a monk?
Stating it as a list of facts (as in the OP) seems akin to literal interpretations of the bible where the world was created 4000 years ago etc. A more reasonable view would be to take the message in context. I don’t think Buddha had anything against laypeople playing chess
Yes, the vinaya was for monks; precepts for laypeople were a later addition. I think to a great extent, though, he's not talking about good Buddhist monks vs. bad Buddhist monks; he's talking about what distinguishes the Buddhist path from the paths followed by other "contemplatives". If you look a couple pages back from that quote, you'll see that the sutta is contrasting him with various other "contemplatives" — today we'd call them Hindu sadhus, but "Hindu" didn't become a religious identity until some 2000 years later.
As for the question of whether everybody should become a monk, well, certainly the Mahayanist Bodhisattva Vow claims so — if not in this lifetime, in some future lifetime. But the authenticity of the Mahayana sutras is sufficiently divisive that it created a schism in Buddhism that continues today, 2000 years later.
I think there are a couple of interesting facts we can get from the list of games:
1. Either Shakyamuni thought playing games like these amounted to "having vices" incompatible with striving diligently at meditation, or the Buddhist sangha thought he thought that within a few centuries of his death. Perhaps even more surprising, he thought the same thing about going to concerts and using mirrors.
2. Holy shit, people have been playing pick-up sticks and guessing letters drawn in the air for 2500 years?
This seems like an overly simplistic way of looking at poker, and I feel is not a fair judgement of the game. The game is not just about deception.
To play poker (and win) you need many skills:
- mastery over your own body, specifically the ability to restrain outward displays of emotion related to the hand you were dealt or the cards being drawn
- the ability to calculate probabilities, because you have limited information and do not know the cards others have, you must assess the current situation and attempt to make decisions using a probabilistic model
- budgeting resources. Your chips are a finite resource and wasting them or not betting enough will affect your future hands
- psychology. You have to learn the way your opponents think. You learn their tells, behavior, and strategies, and have to practice empathy to determine their behavior in a given scenario
That being said, its fine that your friends don't like the game, to each their own! I just personally don't think it's fair to view it through such a narrow lens.
This is kind of a curious feature of all human hierarchies. Often times, people higher in the hierarchy will not participate in competition of any kind with the rest, since they have so little to win. On the other hand, making mistakes publicly can (and will) cast doubt in their abilities in general.
In my company we sometimes have these fun pub quiz type activities. The higher-ups never participate.
"Ball games" no Rocket League. It's the only form of meditation I practice and I'm sure as hell not going to main Snow Day. I'm going to ignore Buddha on this one.
I'm thinking he would be a fan of Get over it with Bennett Foddy. It's effectively deterministic with respect to user input (no "rolling dice" rng, just physics). No game board, you aren't physically stepping. Just you and the obstacle course.
> About this Episode
> In which a great spiritual leader lists all the kinds of dice and pick-up sticks and toy windmills that are off-limits to the enlightened, and Ken wants to lick a tetherball pole. Certificate #25968.
Wow, I haven't seen this before, Some interesting things here.
I wonder what he would make of VideoGames...well points 5 through 12 some up a good chunk of video games. But I wonder about more indie/experimental games?
Particularly 'Zen' or wellness games, as the "cause for negligence" rang a bell for me. What if a game is more of an aid, or inspirational story, or other uplifting experience?
I'm making one right now, so this is a great list to have come across.
My game is an abstraction of the Zen calligraphy practice of Ensô, where every day you paint an uninhibited ink circle on a blank sheet of paper.
I spent some time breaking down what the daily discipline was for me, and then translate these elements into a game. Theres a lot more to it than that but that's the (very) basic starting point. As I'm nearing release I can see there are definite places it falls short. Though I started with the intent of it NOT being a "cause for negligence", hopefully my intent shines through.
As with everything in Buddhism, it's important to double check the philology on this (if anyone has done that specific work yet) because as with many other things a lot of it was added later for various reasons. Not wise to assume we're talking about the historical Buddha here rather than the character Buddha without verifying that.
“There is an anecdote that Charles Borromeo, Bishop of Milan, was playing chess among friends and someone asked what would they do if they were just told that they were about to die and that Christ was at hand for Judgment Day. One person said he would start praying. Another said he would go straight to confession. A third person said he would rush off to church and prostate himself before the Blessed Sacrament. But Charles replied that he would continue his game of chess, for that he begun it for the glory of God, and should continue it for the same end; whatever was done with a single view to God was a holy and meritorious act.”
This seems to be about tripping. Buddha wouldn't go tripping as a game. Not paying attention. Embodying a thing made up.
Instead, Buddha would always be playing a game. A game of not tripping. Of being present. Of listening to what's happening, and embodying such.
There is in that vein a game I've first seen being played no the BBS forums. It does not have a name beyond "the game". It worked as a social way of troll control, the same concept as a Buddha's game but for social groups.
It doesn't work like that no more.
Buddha would say this is because you're trying to guess what the other's thinking, no doubt.
Reminded me that there’s a movie on Netflix about Baggio, a famous soccer / football player from Italy who was proudly Buddhist. Yet “Ball sports” are on the list of games not to be played by disciples of Buddhism.
I’ve only seen praise for Baggio around his faith. I’m curious how deeply held these beliefs are around games and if anyone in the Buddhist community ever approached Baggio about it.
> The Buddhist games list is a list of games that Gautama Buddha is reputed to have said that he would not play and that his disciples should likewise not play, because he believed them to be a 'cause for negligence'.
And what exactly does that mean? No exploration of that in the article or any particular exploration for each game. Its a list after all. How does that apply to 8x8 but not a 9x9 board game?
I'd expect a passing comment about it at least. A paragraph.
Fair point, but it’s a problem that plagues many religions where the decrees have been preserved but the reasoning lost or modified through interpretation. Who knows but maybe the list had an “etc.” in it that covers 9x9 but that 8x8 was the prevalent game of the times so it was called out explicitly. Or maybe 9x9 games took 10x the time as a 8x8 game, and no one could fathom spending days playing a 9x9 game. Or maybe it is just an arbitrary list. This is common with any law like the “right to bear arms” where new “arms” like rocket launchers were invented later. Unfortunately, the context appears lost.
I understood “negligence” to mean that playing games is likely to make you negligent of your spiritual or daily life. That’s still a common philosophy with parents chiding their kids for playing too many games and not spending enough time on school work, chores, etc.
Very interesting to see Chess in this list. Neither is it pointless nor is it harmful, in my opinion. I fail to see why a game refining the logical thinking should be kept away. I mean the best chess players in the world currently are some of the most disciplined, soft-spoken people.
Do modern Buddhists follow these guidelines? Is there an equivalent to pharisaism in Buddhism, where there's a strict adherence to rules and regulations, while completely missing the original intent?
Some modern Buddhists do follow "no games during retreats" or the more general "playing games does not mix well with the practice".
Games do encourage attachment and speculative thinking, so it is not about some abstract purity or punishing oneself by denying pleasant things. It's more like "don't smoke if you train for marathon".
I think it's more avoiding clinging to temporary joy. Have you met a person who seems to live in their glory days, clinging to the last time they were happy? Spending their entire life chasing after those first highs? I find it hard to describe people like this as anything but 'suffering'.
I would also note that the meditative techniques of the Buddha eventually lead to an experience called the 'jhanas', which are pleasurable all on their own:
> Directed thought, singleness of preoccupation, and evaluation act as the causes. When the causes are fully ripe, results will appear — (d) rapture (piti), a compelling sense of fullness and refreshment for body and mind, going straight to the heart, independent of all else; (e) pleasure (sukha), physical ease arising from the body's being still and unperturbed (kaya-passaddhi); mental contentment arising from the mind's being at ease on its own, undistracted, unperturbed, serene, and exultant (citta-passaddhi).
There are plenty of joyful feelings in the path the Buddha set forth; spending time in meditation in these altered states of consciousness is part of the path, as I understand it. It's not all as austere as it may seem at first!
As the article mentions, these are thought to refer to particular games ("ashtapada" = (game of) eight steps, "dasapada" = ten steps). From the description (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtapada), they sound like casual games somewhat similar to Ludo/Parcheesi.
Ajahn Brahm of BSWA is a right laugh. An Aussie from England, the story goes that went to all Buddhist temples in London until they found the happiest bunch of monastics (Thai forest, eventually under Ajahn Chah).
Indeed - I don't mind Buddha not playing them, and I don't mind other mere mortals playing them. But I do mind people taking it for granted that I should have any interest in such waste of time!
Also - the presence in a various Buddhist traditions of "pointless tasks done with mindfulness" made me wonder where the line was between "pointless but beneficial" and "pointless and harmful". I tried to engage a Buddhist friend in this discussion but was hampered by my lack of knowledge about Buddhism itself and the partly-formed concepts I was struggling to give some shape to.