Seriously. This giant phone trend is nonsense. Nonsense! I'm a 6'5" man with large hands who still swears by an SE, despite being mocked by friends and strangers whenever I pull out my "tiny phone". I had a 6S and promptly ditched it for an SE after feeling like the thing was designed to slip out of my enormous hands. That whole "reachability" feature they added when they started with this phablet obsession was basically an admission of guilt—"Yeah, this phone is too big for your hands and goes completely against our brilliant ad campaign about the phone vs hand size, but Samsung made a big phone and people are buying it! We're scared they're taking our customers away so we're making big phones now. Here's a workaround."
Thanks, I hate it.
As someone holding on tightly to an out of date iPhone and a 2015 MacBook Pro (oh my god, the current laptop keyboard/trackpad/port situation is a whole 'nother even more intense rant), I think Apple has fucking lost it product-wise. I'm saying this as someone who has been on Apple products since 1987 and lived through the dark days of Apple in the 90s.
To me it's an example of what happens when you put a finance guy and not a product guy at the top of the totem pole. Instead of asking "is this product the best it could be?" the thought process seems to be "Will this product make money? How can it make MORE money?"
"Yeah, it doesn't sit on a table flat anymore, but it'll sell when we market it as 'THE SHINIEST IPHONE EVER'"
"It sure is awkward to use one handed, but it'll sell when we market it as 'THE NEWEST IPHONE WE'VE EVER MADE'"
Bigger and bigger iPhones with better and better cameras and more and more letters tacked on to the end will sell to a captive audience when Apple has the brand power they do. And that might seem good enough when all you're doing is comparing yourself to what the rest of the market is releasing, and when market success is beating last year's sales. But is that the Apple we want?
Nope.
I want my Apple back. The SE was the last phone form-factor that still had Steve Job's approval on it, and it sucks that it's so obvious.
SE size but all-screen like the X would be perfect I think. Up to Apple whether they call it the iPhone SEX.
There's nothing current and SE size in the Android world either (except at slow feature-phone level).
Even better, release two new phones, one in SE size but all screen so the screen's bigger, and one with SE screen size but all screen but the phone's smaller.
Amusingly, Apple had to side-step exactly the same naming conundrum in 1989 when they released their new M68030-based models—the Macintosh II was followed by the IIx and the Macintosh SE was followed by the... SE/30.
Here's hoping for an iPhone SE/30. Sadly they missed the ideal time to release it, being that last January was the SE/30's 30th anniversary. That would have been cute. As they were both (for their time) small and powerful computers, it would have been perfect. I was almost expecting it as soon as they released the iPhone SE... and Apple isn't entirely immune to nostalgia, though it is rare.
An interesting bit of trivia: the SE/30 is the only Apple computer to ever to include a slash in its name. (Honorable mention does go to the Apple IIe which was occasionally stylised in type as //e, but that wasn't its actual name.)
> mocked by friends and strangers whenever I pull out my "tiny phone".
Interesting. I don't often get mocked for having an SE, but I do often have people asking what model my phone is and where they can get one.
My current hope is that we might see something like the SE come back now that Jony Ive's had at least a glancing blow from the boot. Maybe now Apple's at least a little bit more able to resist the constant drive to make the phones wider and wider so that they can fit the same amount of electronics and battery into a thinner and thinner device.
Yeah, hopefully! Nobody is asking for paper thin phones, and this needless obsession with THIN is we have to thank for gems such as:
- the phone no longer sitting flat
- the headphone port being removed
- the phone being impossible to get a good grip on without a bulky case
- "nearly one day of battery" life being the bar for "what good battery life is"
Who trades a couple of millimeters of thickness in exchange for the above? I hope someone in Apple is listening and can convince themselves and others inside that thickness is not the enemy.
iPhone 6 (Plus) was when it was realized that people care a lot about the camera. Folks bought iPhone 6 Plus phones they didn’t want for stabilization.
Apple prioritized camera over thickness at that point. Battery is lower on the list and is mostly addressed by CPU improvements.
IMO it’s frustrating that they are so conservative with a mature product. We waited over a decade for basic waterproofing. Apple has an incredible supply chain, but Samsung can deliver better/more diverse form factors. Example: ruggedish phones.
Apple’s focus is both amazing and frustrating to me. They had and lost an opportunity to break Microsoft clients in business.
Basically why I bought a Moto G⁷ Power: it's about the same size as all the other phones these days, and it actually has two to three days of battery life. It's about the thickness of an iPhone 5, which was fine.
I personally think the iPhone 4S's display was a good size and resolution, and the form factor is good for human hands. If they could close in the bezels a bit, cut off a tiny bit of chin and forehead, and make the shell like the iPhone 5C... and make it run Android... I'd probably be game.
They could probably procure a really nice display in terms of colour, switching speed, sustained brightness, and black levels, maybe even increase the refresh rate to 120Hz for the interaction latency benefit. At 960x640, the quality of each of those pixels could be spectacular, and it'd further help with the end-to-end latency.
For the last couple of years I didn't ever bring a smartphone with me, just my trusty Nokia 106, which itself gets about a month of standby time per charge. I still carry the 106 because I'm still not used to having to charge a device so often.
Thing is, it is not nonsense. People here always cry for 'voting with your wallet'. Well, people did and here we are. Apple was massively criticised for _years_ that they did not put out a large phone, because that's where all of the android market went.
Then, when they finally made the iPhone 6 their sales were so large that the next year's phone was deemed a flop even though it did extremely well. (If one would remove iPhone 6 from the sales chart, the 6S would still continue the trend in increased sales every year).
I would love apple to also offer a smaller phone, but offering people what they actually want was not a mistake.
> offering people what they actually want was not a mistake.
You can’t read customer preference from the market when they stopped offering choice in this regard. I bought a large phone because that’s the choice they offered and fucking hate it.
I think they do have pretty good numbers because the iPhone 5S was still sold even after the 6 was out. So, when the 6S came out they could compare how well the 1 year old 6 fared against a then one year old 5S.
Also they did make the SE. I am pretty sure Apple knows what is most money making strategy.
This being said, they do offer (or will soon) a Mac Pro which clearly is not there to make big bucks. They could (and I would love them to) offer a smaller phone with latest internal specs. They do have bandwidth for that.
My fear is that what makes apple money is inherently an expensive, shitty phone for everyone. They are incentivized to keep us purchasing high dollar products, not to make quality products.
The software has me over a barrel. I would dump Apple hardware in a heartbeat if I could get it running on a phone built for reliability. I’d stop complaining about the hardware so much if they allowed independent app stores with better curation. Together makes me look for alternatives (which also suck mostly for software reasons).
1) I can't remember anyone reliable who thought the iPhone 6s was a flop, as opposed to the fact that the iPhone 6 had an immediate surge due to pent up demand.
2) The fact that Apple went so many years without a big screen phone, with people demanding it, and then when Apple.did release it they underestimated demand, proves that Apple can be mistaken in their assessment of the market. You're correct that just because people here seem to indicate they want a small phone doesn't mean a market for it exists. But I do remember the exact same comments being made about a larger screen size phone as well before the iPhone 6. IOW, just because Apple doesn't offer a small phone, doesn't mean the market for that doesn't exist either
It's quite spineless and revealing to abandon the standard smartphone screen size right after running those ads.
I guess they're doing product development out of fear instead of boldness, now. Just a typical committee-led US corporation trending back to the mean. Maybe they should get a new CEO from Pepsi, again.
Amen. The SE is the ideal size for me because, with an Otter Box case, it fits in a shirt vest pocket or a jeans front pocket although I prefer the shirt pocket. I'd love it if they'd make a new one in the exact same size. I know I will try to keep this one going as long as I can but would buy a new one immediately were it to be offered. I should have bought the last of the old ones that Apple was closing out for cheap. Darn me for not.
"I'm a 6'5" man with large hands who still swears by an SE"
It appears that the SE is 4 inches and the 6S is 4.7. I have a Pixel 3 non-XL and it is 5.5 which seems fine to me. But the Pixel 3 XL at 6.2 was going too far.
Anyway, a real Apple SE[1] has a screen which is a little over 8 inches...
I feel the same way but heard an interesting take- ordinary people with ordinary size hands couldn't one-hand anything bigger than four inches, so most of the market has been using two hands since 2010.
You are not alone. There are many that agree with you and even apple did, before it hindered with what the "shareholders & wolfs of wall street" needed.
The point has been made before that the problem is most people don't have large hands (especially the quite small people in the rest of the world) - and they have already had to get used to using two hands, so for them - the size increases are a non-change. It's only us giant-handed people that are now hitting this change. But we're not most consumers.
DISCLOSURE: I'm a long-fingered former SE user who recently upgraded to an XR.
On the flip side, I'd also be cool with it if the phone industry can manage to move the fashion industry to produce clothing articles with pockets that fits these phones in places that doesn't prevent you from sitting down etc.
I have massive front pockets, so my XS Max happily fits in there, along with my work iPhone 8, and I don't generally notice when sitting down. It seems weird to me that you'd have non-jeans pants that you _couldn't_ do that with.
I have a Xiaomi 6" flagship and it's too big for me. I mean, I can use it, but it's not too comfortable. I wish there was a bigger market for the 5" phones, but seems the trends are for bigger and bigger.
Having an uneven phone back such that it falls off of even level surfaces when receiving a phone call is a _vital feature_ that I cannot live without. How else will my phone land on a corner and crack the screen, requiring an expensive repair? Am I supposed to drop it like it's 1999?
Every year I wait on bated breath at the release of a similarly compact phone to the SE. I even recently bought a new one right before they removed them from the store, so I have 2 year apple care+ for it to tide me over.
Ordinarily I would vote with my wallet, but there are no compact Android phones either.
Ironically I still own a Oneplus One which is quite old by todays standards; and I distinctly remember it being called a "Phablet" due to it's obtuse stature in comparison to its contemporaries. However it would not look out of place today, in fact in comparison to my friends iPhone Xs (not max) it hardly seems at all larger!
I would merrily slam down 1K+ EUR for a real flagship phone at a size I can actually use.
(also, I wonder how women get on, since generally they have smaller hands than men.)
I wouldn't even call the SE compact. It's just normal. It's the size that Steve Jobs said fits comfortably in your hand, and since hand sizes haven't changed, it's still true today.
It’s actually a bit bigger, the original iPhone was 3.5” screen and the iPhone 5 got taller.
I have to give up a bit of grip to get my thumb to the top corners of the screen, but it’s a lot better than anything else and I’d say worth the trade off for the extra space. Bigger than this I’m not convinced.
A thousand times this. My absolute number one requirement (after things like, um, the ability to make phone calls) is that it fit in my front-left pocket. I didn't upgrade to the last model for this reason and no other.
But I can only assume that Apple does plenty of market research on their products, so I assume people aren't checking off "the thing is too damn big" under "reasons I didn't upgrade?"
I can fit the larger phones (though still prefer the SE size), but my wife has demonstrated how even the SE is often spilling out of whatever pocket or other way-smaller device holding pocket is on her clothing items. Unless fashion trends change, or everyone who uses purses goes for some giant bag (and likes keeping their phones in a bag, not on their person), there is a large number of people who could use a smaller phone.
I know a lot of women who find the pocket situation in women's clothes very frustrating. They feel like they're being dictated to that showing off the line of their hip is more important than actually being able to carry anything useful.
Maybe, but I have a mix, my partner has a large phone and carries a backpack(!?) with her everywhere, but her closest friend has an iPhone 5 (which she doesn't update the OS on because "it will get slower").
So in my circles it's already 50/50. But I do see iPhone 5's and SE's amongst my circles more commonly than I should given the age of the phone. I'm not 100% on why, though I often ask. And it's incredibly rare that it's a cost decision.
my wife swears by hers - makes it much more comfortable to hold while thumb-scrolling. She's not really one to put her phone in her pocket, though. If it's not in her hand or put down beside her, it's in her purse.
PopSocket Rings are huge in SE Asia. My theory on why is because so many women ride tandem on a motorbike and scroll through their phone while riding as a passenger. I see it all the time here in the Philippines.
I’ve found every iPhone since the original 3.5” form factor too hard to use with one hand. I simply can’t reach all corners one-handed with anything larger.
I’ve been out of luck since the iPhone 4, so I often go for the largest. Might as well get the best camera and battery life.
I type with two thumbs on a phone because I type with two hands on a keyboard. In fact, one hand is tied up on a computer - on a mouse - more often than I can't use one with my phone. It's an acceptable tradeoff.
That "study" in that article is hilarious. The author observed people in Airports, Subways, Cafes etc. and whenever someone was using a Smartphone, he took notes (so it is more of an observation that a study). This is biased in so many ways.He went to places where people usually have to kill time, and do so with their smartphone. He didn't observe all those people that had a smartphone in their pocket passing by, going for their day. I don't use my smartphone to kill time, and I restrict myself from using it when not necessary. Yes, it is a tool, I need it to check the bus schedule, buy a ticket etc. And thats it, and thats why I would be totally fine with a 5" display.
I keep having to ask this every thread, but you know you can double tap the home button and it will bring the screen half way down so you can reach easier.
I have no problem using my 8 one handed, and can even use it one handed while biking
I have slightly smaller hands, and holding my old 7 one-handed was a chore - and besides, I don't want to double tap for reachability and disrupt how I'm used to doing things when I'm holding the phone with both hands.
I downgraded to an SE recently and the only thing I miss is the screen size; traded that for headphone jack, smaller form that fits my hand nicely, and a design I like better.
I always assumed this feature was added so apps that were optimised for the old side wouldn’t require two hands and new ui features like swipe nav would eventually phase it out.
Yet here I am years later still double tapping my home button several times a day
They still have the “reachability” feature, however. It’s a gesture (that I never use intentionally, but I think it’s a swipe down at the bottom of the screen).
Today I learned it's still available on those devices -- apparently it's hidden behind an option in Settings > General > Accessibility and off by default.
>Oneplus One which is quite old by todays standards; and I distinctly remember it being called a "Phablet" due to it's obtuse stature in comparison to its contemporaries
Wait what? This doesn't make sense. I remember getting OnePlus as well (bought it for a friend in Europe) and the screen size was pretty mainstream at that point. It had 5.46" size. It got released the same year Apple released 6+ which had bigger screen, and in US it doesn't get more mainstream than that. In no particular order a list of other pretty successful smartphones released in 2014:
Er, all of your examples except maybe the HTC and the Droid Turbo and the iPhone are labelled Phablets (and Apple only because they seem to be immune to the label); the Galaxy Note series is original phablet line and the OnePlus One was bigger than the contemporary iteration of that line.
Your list reinforces the point you are using it to argue against.
>Galaxy Note series is original phablet line and the OnePlus One was bigger than the contemporary iteration of that line.
No it wasn't, check the specs. My point is at the point when majority of phones were released in "phablet" sizes no one considered them to be odd anymore. 3 years earlier, perhaps but not in 2014. I remember getting zero strange looks walking around with 6 plus.
I understand that when OnePlus One was launched it was in the "Phablet" category. My point is I don't recall anyone using that label on mine (or on my IPhone 6+) because larger phones were becoming a lot more mainstream at that point.
I liked the Nexus 4 form factor as well. I've bounced around to larger phones, including the Nexus 6, Pixel and Pixel 2... but I recently went back to a Sony device (XZ1 compact) because it:
(1) Has a headphone jack
(2) Has the same processor as my Pixel 2
(3) Is actually a usable size (roughly the same as the Nexus 4)
I have giant hands and large pockets available but will always prefer a smaller phone.
On Samsung Galaxy S6 and later models, one can tap the home button three times to shrink the screen so that everything can be reached with one thumb. It's called "one-handed mode". I can't say I've used it very often, but when I need it, it's there.
My LG G7 has a two window mode (you can slide the division between the two windows up and down). Also there are now many apps that can run in small floating windows, most notably video players.
My work bought me an "upgrade" to the XR, as my SE is starting to show some battery issues. But after a day of playing with the XR, I put it back in the box to send back to Apple.
Compared to the SE, the XR is 50% heavier -- even without a case. It doesn't have a good edge to hold onto being so thin, so it makes you want to hold on by the front. But every corner of the front of the device is a UI element that you can accidentally interact with. FaceID failed 90% of of the time for me -- and unlike the fingerprint reader, 100% of the time in the dark of night. That's before I get to the simple annoyances, like how it's not flat, doesn't fit in the pocket so well, and blasts my face full of light in the night.
So Apple lost a sale by not offering a product I want. If my SE breaks, I'll probably just pull my iPhone 1 out of storage -- it still works, has a great form factor, and a much lighter weight than any of Apple's current lineup. Sure EDGE is a little slow and I won't be able to use my Apple Pay, but those are problems I can live with. I live on large screens all day. I don't need a huge phone to be my computer.
I want a choice -- even if that choice is a remanufacture of a 2016 design. An updated design -- say an SE/30 -- would be great. But between that and the keyboard issues in the Macbooks, they've made an Apple fan with upgrades provided by work skip several product cycles. I read enough of these threads to know I'm not the only one. I just wish I knew why they kept leaving money on the table in the pursuit of thinness.
> If my SE breaks, I'll probably just pull my iPhone 1 out of storage
Fix it? The guides (and tools) from ifixit are great, screen will take a couple hours at most if you don't have shaky hands. Battery isn't too hard of a swap either.
If it's a screen, working pulls are like $30 from ebay. I don't recommend the aftermarket ones as the colors skew cold. My girlfriend's on her third SE screen now (we don't like cases) and it's still way cheaper than buying a replacement phone.
Nationally it's only used by T-Mobile in very small amounts of spectrum, and only as fallback of last resort or for legacy things like burglar alarms. Regionally, there might be some rural specialty carriers using it (stuff like indigo wireless for the mining industry).
AT&T shut their footprint off completely a few years ago to free up spectrum in 850mhz.
My SE started overheating in May and wasn't reparable. The genius tried to sell me on a bigger, newer phone, but I declined. Before I walked out he offered me a brand new SE from the stock room for (I think) $270. Just insist that you're interested in nothing but an SE.
Hoping the new one lasts until they come out with a proper replacement. I don't care if the CPU, camera, etc. are 2-3 generations behind. There's nothing I use the phone for that the SE can't handle just fine.
> I'll probably just pull my iPhone 1 out of storage -- it still works
The phone may still be functional, and the iPhone may be smarter, but I recently pulled out a flip phone from that era and it couldn't connect to any nearby cell towers. It was too out-of-date.
> My work bought me an "upgrade" to the XR, as my SE is starting to show some battery issues.
I got my 5S's battery replaced super cheap literally downstairs from my apartment. I suspect I might end up doing that again, though a potential lack of security upgrades might make me itchy.
My 3 year old SE finally broke. I spent 900 replacing it with an XR because they refused to release another SE and I value the emphasis on privacy and security.
But not again. I feel they’ve squandered the good will they’d earned with me by giving me a worse phone at double the cost. I don’t plan to purchase another.
Check out places like Swappa, I've got a backup SE in mint condition for my current SE. Well within reason for prices compared to trust issues w/ Craigslist.
I'm precisely in the same boat, but what are the iOS alternatives? There are none. Wouldn't touch anything Android with a long pole, because it has Google attached to it. Windows phone is a joke (if it still exists)... and there's nothing else that's not a dumb phone, is there?
Windows phone is long gone because u.s. carriers refuse to support them.
One way Windows failed as a mobile OS is large storage requirements; "bloat" is one thing but a safe and reliable 'update' system adds overhead that made cheap Win mobiles marginal.
Do you use any other Apple products? I feel the same way about paying a premium for a phone I don't like, but iMessage is what is keeping me from switching (back) to Android.
My personal computer is a 2014 MacBook. My work computer is a MacBook. Being able to message freely from my laptop to others on iMessage is a really nice feature.
I can't figure out what's great about iMessage. Is it just what I get when I send a text message to someone who also has an iPhone, and it uses a blue bubble to show it's encrypted?
In practice, I have maybe one friend who regularly uses text messaging. Everybody in my neck of the woods uses Hangouts, Messenger, Threema, etc.
Well native iMessage is a lot nicer to use than a pile of web/electron apps. I say this as an Android user whose 8GB MacBook struggles under the weight of a handful of messaging apps.
Palm Phone, 3.3" display. It's kind of pricey for what you get but it's got to be the smallest thing out there that isn't a smartwatch with a SIM card slot.
Having something like a Palm Phone that also acts as a hotspot would be a nice mashup. You can be productive with your laptop or tablet when you are able to sit down and pull it out or you can just have a very basic phone that doesn't let you do too much when you should be doing something else. I know that a lot of the time that I'm on my phone, I should be doing other things like actually working, talking to those around me, or just simply enjoying my surroundings. I still want the ability to contact someone quickly if I need to but I don't want to let myself get easily distracted with the phone in my pocket.
I'm still using my iPhone 4S, but I have a Samsung S9 for backup in case it should fail. The power button is already gone, but I use the charging cable to power it on and pull the battery to power it off!
I changed the battery on the 4S three times.
Last year I meet a translator from Russia who had a 3GS with the original battery! That really made me regret I sent in my original iPod Nano when Apple said the batteries where dangerous and replaced them with a 6th gen for free, who's battery died only a year later!
Now we know why, you can't sell light bulbs that last forever because the customer won't come back... one gen later the iPad Nano was gone from the market.
If it makes it a few more months your best bets will probably be the Nokia 6.2 or 7.2 (depending of your processor and camera desires). You're also going to need to look at the phone width for what's comfortable, a lot of the Android screens have been going for more stretched screen sizes so just the screen size may not be informative enough.
I don’t think Apple has confirmed any EOL for the SE. It’s not sold in the USA anymore, but isn’t it still produced in India for that market (maybe ending now that the 11 is announced, I’m not sure)?
Mostly, I hope they bring TouchID back, preferably via a scanner on the back of the phone.
Outside of providing a bigger screen, FaceID is strictly worse:
- When I pulled my old iPhone out of my pocket, I would have my finger on the scanner and it would be unlocked before it reached my face. With FaceID on the iPhone X, I have to wait a few seconds.
- If you wake up and you're squinting as you look at your phone, FaceID won't work
- If you're wearing a hat and sunglasses, FaceID might not work
- If you're doing something else but you want to unlock your phone on the side in preparation for your next task, you have to stop and look at the phone
But if you're in a pool with your family and want to take a photo, TouchID isn't going to work. And if you've been running and sweating and want to unlock your phone, many times it won't work. And if you're riding your bike in the woods and want to unlock it - right, gloves...
Maybe you're doing those activities extremely often, but for me they're edge cases vs the amount of times FaceID doesnt work for me when I'm simply wearing sunglasses, or a hat, or just in odd lighting.
I have both a work issued iPhone, and a personal pixel with a fingerprint unlock. I cannot recall any time I had issues with the pixel over the last month, while I'm extremely annoyed just thinking of how many times FaceID either took multiple seconds or didnt work at all.
My TouchID drops to like a 10% success rate if the humidity's much different from it was on whatever day I set it up. Or if I've done any work with my hands in the last week or so and roughed my fingers up a bit. Or if I've looked at water in the last hour. I've configured it several times and it never gets much better. I end up using the code most of the time. Probably need to just disable it, it fails so consistently that it'd be faster just to use the code every time.
That's on a 7+, though, and Macbook fingerprint sensors seem a little better (more like 50% success rate) so maybe it's just because it's an early version of the hardware.
I don’t have humidity problems but it’s a nuisance in the kitchen if I have a recipe up on the iPad. Whatever’s on my hands I have to wash off and then thoroughly dry. Depending on how messy my hands are, sometimes I’ll swipe sideways and type in the passcode with a clean knuckle.
If I didn’t need clean fingers to unlock TouchID to begin with, iPad OS’s new voice control accessibility feature would be great for in the kitchen. No need to touch the tablet at all any more.
Touch ID and Face ID both have cases where they don’t work well (gloves/wet fingers, and sunglasses/squinting).
The thing I like better about Face ID is that it lets you hide the text of your notifications by default but then reveal it as soon as you look at the phone, which is nice for privacy.
I never enabled the setting to hide notification text in the past because it was too inconvenient before Face ID.
I'll chime in as another iPhone SE supporter. I'm still rocking mine, which itself replaced a four year old iPhone 5. Best form factor of any such device I've ever owned. I replaced the battery in both after two years, as the iPhone 5 one was completely shot and the one in my SE was not doing well (and at whatever Apple considers 75%). Otherwise both have been near bulletproof.
> It is unlikely that any of my friends and family members are going to move to Android, where there is a wide variety of hardware form factors to choose from.
There's hardly any good iPhone SE-sized Android phones anymore. I have a Sony Xperia Somethingsomething Compact and it's the only option I'm aware of, and it's not really that great. I've never had an iPhone but if they release a new SE I'd probably jump ship in a heartbeat.
I had to replace my Xperia X Compact (2016) recently. The latest Compacts weight much more and cost like flagship phones, which they are. However I'm not interested into something weighting so much and costing some 600 Euro. I compromised on a Samsung A40 which is the smallest modern Android phone I was able to find. It costs 200 Euros and weights 140 g. Compared to the Compact is a much better phone. Bezel less OLED screen and still the 3.5 audio jack. It's as wide as the Compact and thinner. Unfortunately the A40 is too long and I can feel the difference when I put it in the pockets on the legs of hiking trousers: it starts hindering movements. The shorter and thicker Compact didn't. And the extra 2 cm of length aren't really worth much. I would cut them off and still have a better phone than the Compact.
I bought an iPhone SE earlier this year because I couldn't find an Android phone in that size (I'm an Android developer). I generally prefer Android as an OS but the size and form factor is excellent.
I'm hoping there's a decent Android phone in an SE size by the time my SE dies.
Cool, another supporter of a smaller iPhone. I upgraded my SE to a newer SE after buying a clearance SE from the Apple store. If they could make a high res. screen that essentially is the entire front of the phone (ala the trend for larger phones), I'd be impressed and upgrade.
I wonder what data is motivating Apple with regard to phone sizes. I assume trends towards video and image consumption are really pushing for larger screens. Anyone have any insight or knowledge?
On one side having a significantly smaller screen to cater to limits app developers quite a bit, so removing the 320px option would be welcomed there.
Another factor is the things that drive a person to spend $500+ on a phone are probably quite far removed from what they actually want from a phone from day to day. A big huge all encompassing screen is gonna outperform something that actually fits in your pocket every time.
> On one side having a significantly smaller screen to cater to limits app developers quite a bit, so removing the 320px option would be welcomed there.
I develop iOS apps and love my iPhone SE. It's a bit difficult to develop for that screen size, but it's only a little bit of additional effort and I wouldn't give up my phone for that. Plus, even if iPhone SE went away there are new devices with that form factor (for example, the new iPod Touch) that will be supported for quite some time.
I've noticed this: web apps for mobile and even iOS apps seem to spill over. Is there a tool for helping you to develop for the varying screen sizes? (SE surely is an outlier here, but still, the question stands).
Honestly, the biggest one is just using the device regularly: you'll be able to tell what'll work and what won't a lot easier. It's clear when people design an interface for a device they haven't used (even Apple does this for certain apps). Get a physical iPhone SE (they're quite cheap) and use it as a development device. Or even better, use it as your actual device.
The bezels are completely different, so comparing screen sizes is misleading. The outer dimensions of the iPhone X are 5.65 x 2.79 inches, iPhone SE is 4.87 x 2.31 inches. That's 0.78 inches taller and 0.48 inches wider.
> The actual device, while larger, isn't much. Like a half inch in length, and a quarter inch in width.
You're off by almost a factor of 2, and furthermore that makes these increases significant in relative terms.
The 5S is 4.87"x2.31", the X is 5.65"x2.79", that's +0.78"/+16% in height and much worse +0.48"/+21% in width.
The phone is more "surface efficient" (phone diagonals goes from 5.4" to 6.3", or a 0.9" (and 16%) increase where the screen increased by 1.8") but it's still significantly bigger.
For everyone here saying they can't vote with their wallet. You actually can. Apple is so proud of costumer satisfaction. Just buy whatever phone, use it for a day, restore backup to your SE and return the phone saying large screens are not for you. They will see it both as costumer satisfaction statistics and from reactivation of your beloved iPhone SE
It's already not what most people would call a sensible price. Seems difficult to significantly shrink a phone that has a pair of M.2 slots in it though.
I wonder if you'd find the Xperia Ace (or an XZ2 if you want used) close enough for you. I think the Xperia line is where I'll be looking for my next phone, personally. https://phonesized.com/compare/#632,968
Edit: additionally, it looks like the Xperia is thick enough to have no noticeable camera bump. Has a 3.5 mm jack too; I like the look of this quite a lot.
However that size would still be significantly wider horizontally than the SE, pretty much as wide as the 6/7/8 (which I found too wide for comfortable one-handed use).
In addition, they would probably keep the on/off button on the side instead of relocating it back to the top. The latter would be my preference, also for consistency with the iPads. When I owned both an iPhone 6 and an iPad mini, my muscle memory couldn't quite get used to the inconsistency of the on/off button location.
I won't upgrade from this old used SE until some phone manufacturer produces a working phone that will fit in a pocket. It boggles the mind. I tried the Jelly Pro, which ran Slack and a handful of critical apps, but the battery life was only a few hours.
My X fits in some of my pockets but not all. I’d definitely go down to a smaller phone if Appel made one; the size jump from SE to X was a bit of a shock.
Yeah, Honor Play was £260 or something, 6.3" but fits in all my pockets and has almost the power of a flagship. How small are these people's pockets, and how do you, I dunno, play chess or read articles or check out how your photo turned out?
I can't believe that despite sooo many smartphone models there isn't even ONE under 5 inch with a good camera. Two years ago I bought one of the cheapest smartphones on the market (Alcatel Pixi with 4 inch screen) because it was the smallest one I could find - it has the perfect form factor and is good enough for most stuff I use, but one thing I really miss is a good camera. I waited for something better in that size to show up but the phones just get bigger and bigger...
Ive been using SE since the first day it came out and refuse to upgrade for the same reason stated in the post.
Just yesterday I was stopped at the airport and security asked me that phone is so small is this new? I had to respond "no its an old iphone". I have been repeatedly made fun of using a tiny phone while whenever somebody makes this comment back in my mind I think the jokes on you.
Can't agree more with the sentiment here, great minds do think alike ;)
The SE must be my favourite phone ever since the Nokia 3310 (although the Yotaphone was up there for pure novelty of having an e-ink display on the reverse). It was practically perfect and it could take more of a beating than the latest X series phones.
An SE sized X would be nice (with the Face ID and stuff), with a higher screen resolution, but I think it would become more fragile as a result.
I was in your camp, then I got a ring that sticks to the back of the phone. I stopped using a case because I no longer drop my phone, and have even started really stupid things like texting while biking. A ring let's you use bigger phones one handed. Those popper things are more popular but inferior in every aspect.
I will be waiting for a smaller size phone that doesn't compromise on hardware and features, and if Apple doesn't make it within a year or so, then I'll start to look at alternatives. People talk about how Tim Cook is a logistics master, so it shouldn't be difficult to do a smaller sized phone. I don't want a cheaper, lower quality phone, I just want an iPhone XS that's smaller.
Has anyone experienced more frequent RSI or carpal tunnel syndrome (or any hand pain) as a result of using the larger iPhones? It might just be me, but ever since I transitioned from the old iPhone 4's to the iPhone Plus', I have had more instances of random hand-related pain.
I just retired my 5s and bought an SE for $100 from a 12 year old. It's even rose gold hah.
Only reason my 5s needed to go was because it doesn't support VoLTE, which the SE does, and is needed to get calls at my house.
As others have said, would totally spend $900 on a similar sized phone with upgraded internals. But, looks like I'll just hold onto this one for ever...
I owned the SE for ~3 years and I always loved how capable the phone is. It worked well almost like any new iPhone and it has surprisingly good camera too.
I recently switched to the Pixel 3A when it came out because the camera was the main reason. After a few months, I see that Pixel 3A camera doesn't look as truthful as my old SE. Even though the video has optical stabilizer, it doesn't feel as smooth as my SE, and the quality is actually disappointingly worse than my SE.
I miss my SE. I do wish Apple update the SE with a new version and I would definitely buy it.
I currently use a gigantic iPhone X, but I found my old iPhone 5S (basically the same design as the SE) the other day and was amazed at how small it was. That was one of Apple's great designs.
Presumably Apple doesn't make a new SE because it would kill their margins. And it'd be hard for them to make the SE expensive because it would probably be thicker, with a cheaper screen, worse battery life and worse performance (because of battery & cooling).
But I'm sure they could come up with some semi-plausible reason to make an "SE Pro" so they can keep those margins. How about owning the extra thickness and giving it a massive battery and using the depth to put killer camera optics in?
They still make the iPod touch. It even has an A10 in it. The 128 GB model is $299.
The 128 GB iPhone 8 is $499 with an A11.
They don't have to sell a new iPhone SE for less for $499. I'd pay that for it. Small is a premium. But would selling it at $399 really kill their margins?
Edit: the iPhone 8 64GB refurb pricing is now $379. That's a pretty good deal:
Is it possible to have a softphone app on the iPod Touch?
You would just need a wireless hotspot that the iPod would always be connected to, to use it as a phone (or maybe people can start bucking the trend of always being connected).
It's the same size as the SE, except a hair thinner, and has a 3.5mm headphone jack!
Sure, I know a few people that use iPod touches as their “main phone” using VoIP apps. But they’re of the paranoid hacker type and want a device that’s easy to lock-down from phoning home 24/7. It works out for them since they don’t tend to make or receive actual phone calls much.
Only issue is most of these VoIP services can’t be used in a multi-factor authentication scheme since they don’t support short code SMS.
If they can make money selling a $450 iPhone 8 they can surely make money selling the SE. If they made money selling it in 2017 why wouldn't they make money in 2019?
> it would probably be thicker, with a cheaper screen, worse battery life and worse performance (because of battery & cooling).
I might be wrong, but I recall that even though the SE had technically inferior components, including display, it seemed it had _better_ battery life than the latest iPhones of the time. I believe the latest was the iPhone 6 at the time. Presumably OLED might have changed this?
It was the iPhone 6s that came out in the fall of 2015 before the SE's release in spring of 2016. The battery life was better to the 6s and 6s Plus, depending on the task. But, the 6s Plus beat it in quite a few tasks (by a lot), such as standby time, talk time, and audio playback.
I understand the obsession with margins, but at this point they're really taking risks with brand loyalty.
My 2009 MacBook Pro could still handle pretty much any 2019 computing I need to do, but the new OSs won't support it. That's understandable really, but how sorry is it that the 2019 keyboard is so bad that I prefer my 2009 model, even though it's slower to wake and boot.
My SE handles all phone tasks I throw at it, no problem (maybe the battery life could be better), but I hate all the new models. Apple pretty much perfected the laptop around 2014 and the phone with the SE in 2016. These are classic styles that were the culmination of a decade of design tweaks and component improvements. Each of those older generations could have been maintained with no more than small improvements in components (e.g., SSD) and ports going forward (until some kind of revolution in computing interfaces) and they would have happier customers.
I doubt a company like Apple would re-introduce a product like the SE which at this point is that far off the current median product range they manufacture.
My quick prediction is that if Apple intends to continue with the SE, they would quietly announce it around spring next year. Announcing an SE at this time may cannibalize holiday seasons sales.
I'm also still using an SE and I'm not sure what I will do if it breaks. I want Apple iOS, but I definitely want the size of SE and nothing bigger. And the 3.5 headphone jack. And the not-too-curved edge so that I can it can stay on it. I'd pay 500 for a newer model with a newer CPU.
> Presumably Apple doesn't make a new SE because it would kill their margins.
I think that is not the case. They could just build something with A12 or A13 chip, call it "iPhone Mini" and have high margins again.
I think the real deal is mainboard design, case design and all the manufacturing pipeline can't scale to 4 models a year. They are focusing on the XR and now they even removed the suffix. They realized the cheaper model must be big enough. So every year they spend the resources there.
Maybe next year, they can spend one cycle doing a 4" screen form factor, since this year all the announcements have at least 2 cameras. So maybe next year the Pro will have only one screen size and they can do regular, mini and pro. Each with a different display size.
The bad news is: There is no Android alternative either. Phones with 4" and good processing powers and reasonable cameras just don't exist. Really dire situation. I guess I have one more year with iOS 13 before I'll need to get used to use an outdated iOS.
No, bring back the iPhone 4S. It was the perfect size and shape. You could even stand it on its side, due to the flat edges. And the square corners made it easier to grip.
Love my SE. Replaced the battery for $15 off Amazon yesterday. With replacements available on ebay for under $100, I don't have to baby my phone or use a case.
If apple offered a modern SE, I'd probably buy it, but I'm also quite happy with my SE as-is. If the SE wasn't getting iOS 13, I don't know what I'd do... thankfully it is.
Here is my plan: Buy old broken iPhone SEs and go to Apple support to get a replacement for whatever their price is. I'll get one for replacing mine (battery issues) and one for myself in the future, in case they really stop manufacturing it. Shame on Apple.
That's it, I just replaced my old iphone 6 for a refurbished SE. It's a shame, really. I don't mind paying the iphone 11 pro max price for something that hold in my hand, but apparently the market disagree.
And don’t forget that a new iPhone with the size of an SE but design of the X would have a display size of around the iPhone 6/7/8 and make those phones entirely obsolete yet being smaller.
I think most people who like the SE have small hands, and I don't know why apple would dismiss that market. I have finger sausages so I appreciate the bigger screen and keyboard. I think apple thinks in terms of sheer profit and don't care about people with small hands and small pockets. Little do they know the small hands will pay a premium as well to have an Apple so even that doesn't really make any sense except to bean counters in cubes.
Paid $299 for a new old stock from apple - 128GB SE. I looked at which of the modem bands fit my use case the best and got the T-mobile version. My second se, upgraded from 16GB version when camera optics seriously degraded after rugged use, and found apple charges for a whole phone to change the lens. Love the phone. I told IT when they asked what phone i wanted to “get me the small one - to fit in my skinny jeans”. I don't wear skinny jeans, but they got the point.
I bought the SE for my kid ($149 on Amazon) as he was getting frustrated when using my old iPhone 4 which was slow and unresponsive. He absolutely loves it and I'm kind of jealous of how small, lightweight and portable it is vs my iPhone XS - definitely the best price/form factor for kids and can definitely see the appeal of smaller phones esp. if you don't spend a lot of time in using App's or browsing where the small screen real-estate hurts UX.
> It is unlikely that any of my friends and family members are going to move to Android, where there is a wide variety of hardware form factors to choose from. The iOS lockin is very powerful.
The worst thing is that despite this there are basically no high-end small phones in Android either! Once you look at phones smaller than like 5 inches you get into very weird or super low-end phones that are basically unusable.
Hell, even the iphone 8 and X is smaller than most androids
Nobody besides Apple knows the exact reason(s), but I'd guess it's because they determined that enough users were attached to the ecosystem that they could upsell more of them on a larger/more-expensive phone, than they would lose to competitors. Presumably that profit difference is smaller than the cost to develop a new form factor.
At some point some company is going to come out with a really good stand-alone smartwatch. And that will take the place of small phones and probably even regular sized phones.
Nothing wrong with the current SE. I’m typing on it now. :-) (other than all the websites that stopped testing on small screens... looking at you Reddit).
I still have my first iPhone, a 3G with the curved back. Every once in a while I pick it up and always marvel at how comfortable it is in my hand compared to the iPhone X I use now. I oouldn't possibly go back to using a screen that small but would definitely give up some screen size to regain a bit of that old "nice to hold" feel.
I've been stuck on the iPhone SE since release and refuse to switch even though the home button is broken. I would consider switching to Android if a manufacturer released a premium phone with SE-like dimensions. There's literally nothing on the market with a decent spec anymore. "Compact" phones now have screens that are > 6 inches.
Not sure I understand what you mean by that. The rumored size is 4.7 inches, like the SE. The SE has basically the same innards as the 6s, so this seems like an upgrade to the innards of the 8.
Maybe we're saying the same thing? An SE with the innards of the 8 and hopefully a more edge-to-edge screen and possibly even FaceID would be warmly welcomed by current SE owners, I think.
Yep, you're right, I read the article too fast and missed some key lines. It clearly says "the form factor of an 8". I assumed it was calling it 4.7in because that would be roughly the screen size of an SE with an edge-to-edge display.
The xz2c was a step down in many ways from the xz1c. Just off the top of my head, no headphone jack (I use mine almost daily), back-mounted fingerprint sensor (that's not how I use my phone), fatter and bigger, less battery life, and front-facing selfie camera is not wide angle.
Loved the smaller form factor and switched to Pixel when the phones got bigger and more expensive.
But I didn't feel the software lockin — I was using Google maps, mail, cal, docs, etc., plus Spotify etc., etc., and that became easier when I switched to the Pixel, less fighting with the OS.
I think Apple's answer to that is a watch with LTE. Seriously.
My GF controls her apple watch by voice, glances at imessages on the screen and replies by voice, and really only pulls out her phone when seated or waiting-while-standing.
I doubt a modernized SE-sized device could meet Apple's margin needs.
Please do it. I would buy it on a heartbeat. I don’t like carrying this tablet sized display (XS). I miss my SE, it was just too sluggish and restarting too much when I replaced it.
Also, I have a feeling that the reason why they don’t do it is because bigger screen generate more engagement.
I was holding my old iPhone3 in my hands a few days ago (one of my kids have collected a few phones in the house over the years). It felt so good, light and small. I really long for a phone in that form-factor again, the big phones of today is just silly.
Here I was thinking the author was suggesting bringing back the Macintosh SE, but with, oh, a retina display, 12 cores, 4 TB of SSD, powerful mini-speakers, and ... a small drink-refrigerator or maybe a place to hold a potted plant. That would have been cool.
I used to think that compact sized phone such as SE (or Sony compact range) were perfect size for me. Until I got a Galaxy S8 and realized that, as long as width is ok, I can stand a long screen.
Even the S9 (at about 1mm wider) feels too wide.
Silly question, but what does he mean by the iOS lock-in? I have both an Android (personal) and iphone (work) and don't find anything particularly appealing about the iphone wrt to a much much cheaper Huawei (besides a faster camera)
I would absolutely through money at a better phone, but I'm holding out with an iPhone 8 because anything bigger heavier is uncomfortable. There are rumours to 2020 flag ship will be smaller, I'm looking forward to that.
The SE would probably also be better from an environmental perspective, since it would use fewer materials. Why are they forcing everyone to buy big phones, whether they like them or not?
i love all the things an iphone has to offer. but on top i have the following three requirements.
1. need to reach all screen corners with one thumb: one-handed usage
2. be flat on all sides, don‘t fucking wobble: no bulges
3. i will touch it for interaction; don‘t look at me: touch id
now, looking at what apple serially delivers, these things are not impossible for them to achieve. the question is, why do they go the other way and try to sell me phones too slim to properly house the camera.
My SE is still serving me well. The small form factor was definitely the deciding factor for me. I like being able to comfortably sit down with my phone in my front pocket.
I think the Google Pixel 3a is the best reasonably sized and reasonably priced phone for most people. Performance is good, camera is great, price is sensible.
my SE 64GB is nearing the end of it’s useful life (battery is old, dust on the front and main camera, broken back glass ). I’m looking into either a second hand 128GB SE or getting an out of warranty repair. The small size and one handedness are just essential features in so many situations.
i really wish they made an updated SE with a full screen front and updated cameras. And the real black aluminium back. from the iphone 5.
So let me get this straight: the author admits Apple doesn't need to do this for business reasons, but is asking them to be nice and do it for other reasons? And the option of, you know, using one's market power to give Apple an incentive to do it for business reasons isn't on the table?
The argument is that due to all of the other lock-in effects, users don't really have the choice of switching to another smaller device (which, fwiw, doesn't even really exist anymore either: the world seems to have decided high quality small phones are a bad idea).
Which have been common knowledge about Apple for longer than plenty of Apple users have been alive. And if users choose to keep on being users when they know full well what Apple is up to, again, self-inflicted wound.
It's rumoured to have a 4.7-inch screen, so probably not much smaller than the iPhone 6,7 and 8, even if they are able to reduce the top bezels somewhat.
"Apple is also working on its first low-cost iPhone since the iPhone SE. That could come out as early as the first half of 2020, the people said. The device would look similar to the iPhone 8 and include a 4.7-inch screen." -- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-05/apple-wor...
According to gsmarena.com iPhone 8 is 4.7" and SE is 4.0"
Keeping SE supported fragments iOS market and burden the developers. iPhone 8 is now the low-cost iPhone roughly at SE price point with a screen size that you kind of have to support anyway.
It's form factor too, not just price point. The form factor is the only reason I switched from Android, and I'd happily pay the full iPhone 11 price for a phone the size of an SE with iPhone 11 internals.
Android on the Jelly Pro was usable but recharging 2-3 times per day was not. Just a little bit bigger, please, to support a bigger battery and a slightly larger on-screen keyboard.
I have a SE for work but a Xiaomi Mi 9 for personal use. I just can't get used to iOS and the small SE. Cant type a decent message on it and the UI, although easy, just makes me feel I'm missing out on efficiency.
Not to mention I don't really care for apple products besides my old iPod (and of course the old stuff like the Apple][).
It's funny how saying you don't like apple gets you downvotes on HN. Imo it's weird technical minded people like on here even think good of apple but that's probably just me.
Thanks, I hate it.
As someone holding on tightly to an out of date iPhone and a 2015 MacBook Pro (oh my god, the current laptop keyboard/trackpad/port situation is a whole 'nother even more intense rant), I think Apple has fucking lost it product-wise. I'm saying this as someone who has been on Apple products since 1987 and lived through the dark days of Apple in the 90s.
To me it's an example of what happens when you put a finance guy and not a product guy at the top of the totem pole. Instead of asking "is this product the best it could be?" the thought process seems to be "Will this product make money? How can it make MORE money?"
"Yeah, it doesn't sit on a table flat anymore, but it'll sell when we market it as 'THE SHINIEST IPHONE EVER'"
"It sure is awkward to use one handed, but it'll sell when we market it as 'THE NEWEST IPHONE WE'VE EVER MADE'"
Bigger and bigger iPhones with better and better cameras and more and more letters tacked on to the end will sell to a captive audience when Apple has the brand power they do. And that might seem good enough when all you're doing is comparing yourself to what the rest of the market is releasing, and when market success is beating last year's sales. But is that the Apple we want?
Nope.
I want my Apple back. The SE was the last phone form-factor that still had Steve Job's approval on it, and it sucks that it's so obvious.