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where’s the line between buying something on amazon, ordering a ride on uber, and patreon?

why do some purchases get exempt and not others?


Arbitrary Apple rules. Apple decided that "physical" goods & services in app purchases don't get taxed (e.g., clothes, uber rides). Digital goods do because they feel like they can get away with it which is why you can't buy eBooks from Kobo or Amazon on iOS, can't buy or rent movies from Google on iOS. People will tell you this is for "safety" and to keep you from getting scammed but there's nothing stopping malicious actors from creating apps that promise to ship physical goods and just don't. At least with digital goods you should get whatever you pay for immediately after purchase.

But Apple doesn't take a share of Venmo or PayPal or Zelle either.

And Patreon sure feels a lot more like those -- you're sending money to a creator.

Sometimes you get extra content, but sometimes you don't.


Whether Apple believes it can strongarm the related companies.

I do wonder if a workaround here is buying a physical postcard from a patreon creator that comes with a free monthly subscription. A 50c mailed card would be cheaper for any subscription above $2.

I'm not sure you'd need to ship it. You're buying a 1/100,000 share of a physical postcard that exists at the Patreon offices. You can visit the office and see the postcard displayed out front under glass. It just so happens that buying such a postcard includes a free month's subscription to a Patreon creator.

That's the reason why Kindle doesn't sell ebooks on iOS

Apple is threatening to remove the Patreon app if they do the same.

In many cases, it isn’t even a “purchase“ in any reasonable sense of the word - it’s a donation. Supporters don’t get anything other than knowing they’re helping a creator keep making something they like. This is akin to Apple wanting a 30% cut when you send your buddy $5 through Apple Pay. With this, Apple isn’t just interfering in business relationships, they’re interfering in personal relationships.

I’ve been pretty sympathetic to Apple in their tangles with the EU - I want my phone to be a locked-down appliance. But this is too far- it’s clear that Apple both has a lot of power and is abusing it.


The line is "can you use the purchase solely in the app distributed through Apple's infrastructure". I think their fee is outrageous, but that does seem like a defensible line.

Except they're stepping far over that line! You can use a Patreon subscription on all platforms, same as a Spotify or Netflix or Kobo... and yet they want a cut even when they have no part in the payment processing. Totally indefensible imo.

No, I think you misunderstand. It's not "can you use it elsewhere?", it's "if the user chose to, could they use the purchase solely inside the context of the Apple ecosystem?"

That is, if someone wants to, they can use Patreon's iOS app, not interact with Patreon in any other way, and get all of the benefits available to patrons.


Whatever you get as a Patreon patron isn't typically a physical product, unlike something you buy on Amazon (generally speaking) or a physical car ride. It's closer to a Netflix or a newspaper subscription, and Apple wants 30% of those too.

Some Patreons I subscribe to do include stuff like postcards, signed posters or prints, so it's not quite as black and white

The line is wherever Phil Schiller fucking says it is.

Subscriptions I expect....

you should work at google

startups are about the work


OP wants to get PAID for their work and rewarded for the all-in effort they'd put in. re-read their comment


> Even if this tiny company somehow became worth a billion dollars, I’d still make less money than if I’d worked as a senior engineer at Google or wherever

this is why they don’t belong in start up land

running and working in a start up requires a certain type of insanity

this individual is not a fit


The OPs complaint is not that the risk is high, the OPs complaint is that the risk relative to their market rate is not balanced. Often you can end up working for junior founders and would be better off as a founder yourself.

If the founder views you as replaceable, then why not work at a big tech which would pay you dramatically more? Successful startups are not often populated by the irrational.


cause if you fail you have to let people go

cause if you fail you have to tell your investors you lost money

cause if you fail is a thought that’s always running through your head as you live it


"cause if you fail you have to let people go"

This isn't the founder's risk. It's the employee's risk. And it has the added bonus of, if there is a liquidity event, the employee's don't get the upside.

I was like engineer #3 at a company that eventually was acquired for ~$250MM. My payout was $60,000, after 5 years of employment there. I could have made more by going and contracting at megacorp for a single year. There was never any upside for me.


> There was never any upside for me.

That was because you negotiated and accepted a shitty deal. Unless someone scammed you into believing something that isnt' true, which I doubt. Founders can be overly optimistic, but it isn't same as scamming.

Startups are a difficult game. Everyone gotta watch for themselves. Don't blame on others if you accepted a suckers deal.


laying off people who joined you on your dream is highly unpleasant

financially you are correct, but being a leader is mostly about the human stuff


This is not a real risk you're talking about, but small inconveniences. A risk is losing your house for example, or losing the ability to rent.

Inconveniences are part of life anyway. Being the first engineer means you get all these inconveniences (tell your wife and your kids) plus real risks as above (taking a loan to buy the options and losing it)


“Letting people go” is taking on the risk of all of those people being let go losing the ability to rent or pay their mortgages. That seems like more than an inconvenience to me if you take one of the responsibilities of being an employer at all seriously.


If you are working a tech job and know how to program computers and have no savings slash the loss of a job costs you your house, you have deep and fundamental problems far beyond the loss of one job and it isn’t your former employer’s fault that your life is mismanaged.


No employee should join a startup with the expectation that the company will be around forever.

Compare startups to restaurants- their failure rate is absolutely massive. Working for a new company is simply always a risk for everyone involved, there's no getting around that.


far easier for me to layoff people at megacorp then when your the founder

at megacorp, you shrug and look them in the eye and they know you can’t do much

your in the same boat

as a founder every layoff is YOUR failure


My primary motivation as an employee of a startup is fear of personal financial ruin. That the company won't be able to make payroll and I won't be able to pay my rent, that I'll be evicted eventually or that if the company goes under I won't be able to find a new job. There is no mission or any other soft carrot that I care about. I also don't have any faith in stock options.

I can't imagine caring about reputational damage with rich people unless that reputation is in service of not starving in the streets.


Perhaps you shouldn’t be working in a startup because your lifestyle is unaffordable, or your company is paying you peanuts.

I have worked in startups in Silicon Valley and have had many friends working for them. Most startups pay a base salary of around 200k$ I reckon (for new grads, perhaps 150k). This might come down to 9-10k after taxes per month. A good 2 bedroom house to rent in a location like San Jose would be 3k$ per month, which leaves you 6k for other expenses. Assuming 1k for car, you should still have 5k in savings per month, in a year of working you will have saved up 20 months of rent, maybe 12 months of living without a job. I find it hard to believe anyone in SV startups, is in risk of “personal financial ruin”, or “starving in the streets” just because they lost a few months of paychecks while searching for another job. That may be true in another country, in another market, but all tech workers in the Bay Area are living well above subsistence and acting like they are living paycheck to paycheck is a fantasy. There is a cost to working in startups, and it is an opportunity cost of not working in a big tech company and cashing out your 200k+ RSU over 4 years and instead receiving paper money stock options that can be worth 0.


I don't live in California, the startup I work for is remote. I don't fear financial ruin because I don't have money, I fear it because I catastrophize everything. There's no evidence to suggest I would be homeless if I lost my job, but that's just where my brain goes.

But I'd like to point out that in your math, you calculated the cost of a car and a rent, but no other living expenses. Also in what universe does a car cost $1000/month??


nothing constant

evolve or die is the harsh reality of capitalism


if it’s not hard for you why change?

if it is, maybe time to reconsider.


it’s true that no one likes a whinier

that’s why if you do it, you better be right

there’s no should in life, just is

rage not against the world for it will crush you


what would be a better title then ceo for a small company?

i’ve generally used owner.


Founder or owner I think are the best. President is fine if you have a a couple employees, CEO I'd even be totally fine with for a small company, it just approaches cringy in my book when its founders using a corporate title that usually implies a larger organizational structure and it is really just them (a single person/no employee company).


i’ve been conflicted using founder since in some circles it implies the VC route

thanks


President; managing director.


this

big companies have processes that need to be followed

once you get used to process hard to go to shoot from the hip world of early stage start ups


best solutions come when those that own the problem statement get enough info to slightly modify the problem

ie., it is far easier to make men be cleaner in urinals, than to make the cleaners more efficient

but if you can’t be the person to place a little bee on each stall you’re shit out of luck


this is just a matter of time


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