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Steve Jobs, a Genius at Pushing Boundaries (nytimes.com)
48 points by smacktoward on May 2, 2014 | hide | past | favorite | 48 comments



>An investigation by Apple’s lawyers cleared Mr. Jobs of wrongdoing, saying he didn’t understand the accounting implications.

I'm being hyperbolic but it strikes me as unlikely that Jobs sat down, opened up Quickbooks and just fiddled with it until the numbers made sense. You can't scratch your nose at an organization of that size without involving several layers of accountants and lawyers; did everyone else involved with this also happen to "not understand the accounting implications"?

>Mr. Jobs’s conduct is a reminder that the difference between genius and potentially criminal behavior can be a fine line.

What a loathsome false dichotomy.

What is being described here is not genius but instead sociopathy. There's a rather large line between being able to think coherently about how we interact with technology, and breaking accounting laws so you can make more money.

I'm willing to accept that being a huge asshole correlates strongly with your ability to milk every ounce of creativity out of your employees but I see no reason to grant them special courtesy; this ain't no high minded civil disobedience.


Dennis Ritchie and John McCarthy died the same month as Jobs. Whenever I see articles about Jobs I always wonder about these two guys and their contributions.

Will the NYT write an article about Ritchie or McCarthy? Does the public know anything about them?

To me it just says something about American society that we obsess over Jobs yet forget two great men, without whom, Jobs never would have done anything interesting. Is it just because Jobs was rich that we care more? Is it because of his leadership, or place in the public eye? What does it say about our definition of success?


And every time there's an article about Steve Jobs someone posts this comment as if they are the first/only person to think of it. It came up many times at the time they passed.

It's obvious why Steve Jobs gets more mainstream attention; he was the face of a company that has a daily presence in millions of people's lives.

Dennis Ritchie and John McCarthy are not known for the same reason that Georges Friedel (or anyone else involved in the development of LCDs) is not known. Poeple aren't interested in engineers, and engineers aren't usually interested in being public figures.

The list of engineers and scientists whose contributions were absolutely fundamental and necessary to the existence of an iPhone is literally thousands of people. Do you really expect everyone to know all these names? No.

You know Ritchie and McCarthy because you are interested in programming and UNIX. A chemical engineer would know someone else that you don't know. Your knowledge is not superior to someone else's. It's what you're interested in vs. what they are interested in.

Come on, this is obvious. Why do otherwise smart people think this is a good question?


Thank you for this pertinent correction.

Fundamental technology and science advances can touch a lot of people, and even tech-savvy people may be ignorant of the inventors. This is perhaps too bad, but totally understandable. It's a big world.

I'm specifically thinking about Nobel prizewinners in Physics, Chemistry, and Medicine since, say, 1950. That's over 200 people and I'll bet most tech-savvy people know only a small fraction. Yet, those discoveries are hugely influential. (As one specific example, say, Lauterbur and Mansfield who won the 2003 Nobel for their work in the 1980s on magnetic resonance imaging.)

It can be very humbling to speak with a person who knows some of this history. I sat in on a class in the physics of sensing technologies, and at the beginning, the professor listed the Nobel prizes pertinent to MRI, PET, CT, radar, spectroscopy, etc. It was a long list of people unknown to the public, and, alas, unknown to me as well. It's always going to be this way.


> Will the NYT write an article about Ritchie or McCarthy?

You mean like these ones?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/technology/dennis-ritchie-...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/science/26mccarthy.html


And the categories the NYT assigned to the three articles (business, technology, science) explain why it’s useless to try to decide who is more “important”.


Not to mention 3 years old...


And every single time I see an article about Jobs accompanied by a set of comments from a tech-savvy audience I see this same comment about Ritchie (and sometimes McCarthy) resurfacing. You can continue feeling sour about it, but not everyone deserving attention receives as much as they should, and not everyone receiving attention deserves it as much as they get. Ritchie's and McCarthy's personalities and accomplishments just aren't as interesting to the general public as Jobs', which has little to do with our definition of success but more with the fact that, to be able to obsess over someone, we need them and their work to speak to our imagination, which is a lot harder when their accomplishments are less trivial to understand without any knowledge on their field of study.


General public's tastes and interests can be shifted. Many years ago, Chinese people value hardwork and intelligence. Now they admire same thing as Americans smartness and fame.


While that may be true, it most certainly hasn't happened in the last 3 years. Maybe over time people will stop valuing Jobs' work higher than that of Ritchie and McCarthy, but I think it is likely to stay like this for the forseeable future, just as it has been for quite a while.


1. Everyone stands on someone else's shoulders.

2. People like Steve (or Walt Disney, Henry Ford, Elon, Jeff Bezos, Larry and Sergey...) bring together teams of people and lots of money on a problem.

3. The "lone genius" is great but leaders who bring tens of thousands of people and hundreds of billions of dollars in investment over their lifetime usually can have a greater impact. By getting consumers to pay, you can continue to fund even better products. Mobile technology will make great strides in the next decade because Steve Jobs planted the seed. Hopefully, Elon, for example, will eventually get to an electric car with a 500 mile range and rockets that make weekly trips to Mars.

4. Leaders like Steve find solutions to problems. When he worked on the Macintosh, the developers used 68k assembler. At NeXT he went with Objective C because that's what his developers wanted. If Eiffel had been more popular they might have gone with that. Using Unix was cool but if a good solution didn't exist, they could have copied Amiga OS. :-)


Even Ritchie and McCarthy might not have been able to achieve as much without other people's contributions. Clearly they didn't start out with sticks and stones. Even Einstein could've been useless if people before him hadn't laid down the required framework. He was just standing on the top of a human pyramid. The problem is that we only look at the guy standing at the top.

The mere idea of 'hero-worship' is flawed. Leads to dangerous consequences. Why do we forget the contributions of all those who were never named?! Nobody here can go very far on his own. I think it is high time we realized that all this was not built by one man or a few 'heroes'.

PS: I don't think the article describes Jobs as a great guy.


I see this opinion expressed so often when people talk about Steve Jobs and just how good he was at what he did.

That second part is just it, by the way. He was fantastic at what he did. Why does it matter that what he did was built off of things done by others? Dennis Ritchie, John McCarthy and Steve Jobs were all brilliant (and, by the way, am sure all of them used things also built by others while still being brilliant). The reason the world knows more about Steve Jobs than the other two is just obvious - he was the face of a company that build physical things people knew and recognised that they used every day. Steve Jobs was a brilliant marketer that orchestrated that a company be known by people and that he also be well know. That is why articles are published so often about him and not the other two.

TL;DR Why does it matter that Steve Jobs wouldn't have been successful without also using things created by others? That is true for every successful person. Who here knows who invented the electric guitar? Unfortunately, I don't. But I do know who Jimi Hendrix was and know that he was fantastic at playing it.

EDIT: Typo :)


- Sent from my iPad


It’s the same reason rock stars are more famous than scientists.


>To me it just says something about American society that we obsess over Jobs yet forget two great men, without whom, Jobs never would have done anything interesting.*

I have to disagree with this. You have absolutely no idea or proof what Steve Jobs would have done without Ritchie or McCarthy. Your entire line of reasoning is predicated on unprovable assumption. For all we know, Steve Jobs still would have been successful without Ritchie and McCarthy and that's why he's a more interesting figure. But that scenario is just as impossible to prove as yours.


The point is that Steve Jobs, just as the rest of us, was standing on the shoulders of giants. So why then do we obsess over him and not others? Why is he any more important than Dennis Ritchie?


By that logic, why is Dennis Ritchie any more important than Steve Jobs?


He did more and enabled more people than Jobs?


It's not about Ritchie is/not more important, it's about Ritchie did not get the honor and people's appreciate he deserves. Think about it, Jobs did great work with an big company, and he almost claimed all credit of Apple's works himself. While Ritchie did all his work (clearly more important than Jobs) with more self-reliance.


He made pretty shiny shiny objects vs. Richie which is part of the reason.


A salesman needs a product to sale. For a product to exist, the foundation has to be in place. The guys who laid the foundation need to be in order for the foundation to be in place.

A salesman is just that - a salesman.


Well, sure, if you think of Jobs as nothing but a slick salesman then you just don't have a very high opinion of the guy in the first place.


God, I get tired of answering idiots like you. Geeks live in their own little world. Yes, those other guys should definitely be admired. I'll write up a better answer in another post because I'm basing calling you a clueless idiot, and you know what happens to those posts. :-)

Anyway, it really is important for geeks to get a clue about how the world works, and understand what business guys like Steve bring to the world.


I personally attribute your kind of mindset as one of the major reasons of US' setback in RD & technology leadership...


Could you clarify? I have another appropriate answer above where I explain my point in greater detail.


Had Jobs been threatened with jail time, I wonder how much public backlash there would have been. As blind as we may want justice to be, nobody can overlook the fact that the man was responsible for some really nice gadgets. On top of that, the story is hard to get across to the general public: some stock back-dating and ebook price-fixing with no clear sympathetic victim. In light of that, I can see why the DoJ didn't charge him. They would have risked public opinion demonizing the prosecution and favoring Jobs no matter how guilty he was.


I agree with you, and at the same time I'm a little saddened by this reality. Yes Job was responsible for some really nice gadgets that changed people's lives, but at some point the benefits are outweighed by the opportunity cost of competition that would have possibly led to even better gadgets. To be clear, I don't think we often get to that "point" today, but it is a risk worth asking ourselves as a public.


By the time Apple showed up to any particular gadget segment, that gadget segment had existed for years, and sometimes decades before. iPad? Tablets had been kicking around since the 80's. iPhone? iPod? Smart phones and MP3 players had been around since the late 90's. Mac? Apple II? I think you get my point.


But you're making the point I am. Competition is a GOOD thing. Apple showed up in gadget segments and made them better because they weren't terrorized by existing players to keep out. Again I'm not saying that's the point we were at, but I am saying that just because someone/ some company was great, that's no excuse to allow them to try and stop competition.


Makes you wonder if all that praise for design is really why Apple was successful, or if it was more because he pushed the limits of the law and was successful the way the old robber barons were, like a Rockefeller or Carnegie.


While the various trust violations and other assholery bumped up Apple's profits, they hardly provide enough benefit on their own to be responsible for Apple's success.

Unless we find out that Steve Jobs went around holding a gun to people's heads to force everyone to buy iPods, iPhones and iPads.


I hope this isn't the only way to govern to be very successful.


Telecom companies do the same stuff as far as pushing the limits of the law and they are pretty universally reviled. Apple is successful because it provides things to people that they really want and like.


That would be convenient to some world views around HN but the hardware speaks for itself.


I would definitely tend to think its more towards pushing the limits of the law.

Didn't he get a salary of $1 a year without any backfire while CEOs of smaller companies tried it and got fined?


> Didn't he get a salary of $1 a year without any backfire while CEOs of smaller companies tried it and got fined?

Yes, yes, no. It's very common and legal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-dollar_salary


Depends on if you are willing to pay the fines to maintain your style.


The quality of the comments in this thread is terrible.


Indeed it is. If anyone has suggestions about what we could do about this, beyond not have shallowly provocative articles to begin with, we'd love to hear them.


Sorry to suggest something you explicitly didn't ask for, but the problem is definitely the article to begin with. This is in a similar category as troll-bait; obnoxious behavior is guaranteed. An obvious but simple solution: an algorithm that punishes link titles that contain certain names. I propose:

- Steve Jobs - Elon Musk - Jack Dorsey - Melissa Mayer - Sheryl Sandberg - Zuckerberg - Etc.

In many genres the fetishization of individuals leads to lowest-common-denominator crap like this. Reminds me of "great man" history theories.


I'm currently reading "Inside Apple" by Adam Lashinsky and even though I knew Apple was secretive and Jobsian and intense, I never knew the extent of it. If you want to read more about pushing boundaries, read Inside Apple.



But could he transgress the boundaries?


  > Brian Lam, a technology reporter and founder of The 
  > Wirecutter website, said Mr. Jobs’s seeming indifference 
  > to the law wasn’t unusual in Silicon Valley... "It’s
  > just a characteristic of young tech entrepreneurs to 
  > look at the rules and question them. "You can’t get 
  > into this game without a healthy distaste for the 
  > status quo."
Isn't Elon Musk also trying to push the boundaries of society?


What an utterly obnoxious way to frame the issue.


Steve Jobs was a white, male billionaire. Of course he wouldn't be in jail.


At first, I thought of Steve Jobs as a high-variance person: difficult personality, very high creative output. Since I'm the same way, I always held him in high regard. Unlike most CEOs (low-variance, reliably mediocre types) he had the courage to be different. I really liked the idea of a CEO who had a genuine personality (even a difficult one) over the typical corporate social climber.

The more that comes out about Jobs, the more I think of him as not only slimy, but toxic. He seems to have set the template for a thousand talentless hacks who use his success as an excuse to be unethical.

Mr. Jobs’s conduct is a reminder that the difference between genius and potentially criminal behavior can be a fine line.

This makes no sense. I'm one of those high-amplitude individuals. It comes with great difficulty. Most highly creative people have some kind of (possibly mild) mental illness: bipolar's a common one. That's not an excuse to be unethical, and to break laws for one's own benefit at others' expense. (It's one thing to break rules to make everyone win; the wage-fixing scandal is not a case of that.) That argument (fine line between genius and insanity) might excuse spending a whole weekend building a side project, and falling asleep in the Monday afternoon meeting. It doesn't excuse conspiring to suppress wages and wreck careers.




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