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Just to put things in perspective (I'm swiss), 2500CHF is a really low salary in Switzerland. There is another initiative asking for a minimum wage of 4000CHF per month. The median swiss salary is close to 6000CHF[1]. The administration says the poverty line is around 2200CHF per month for someone living alone [2].

You can't really just convert to $ and say it's a lot of money. A lot of basic stuff like food, transportation, housing are really expensive in Switzerland.

[1] http://archives.tdg.ch/actu/suisse/suisses-gagnent-moyenne-5...

[2] http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/fr/index/themen/20/03/bla...




The exchange rate that would equalise the price of a Swiss Big Mac with an American one is SFr1.55 to the dollar; the actual exchange rate is only 0.96. [1]

== Swiss Franc is most overvalued currency

[1] http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/01/daily-c...


As always, you are welcome to take up a very big CHF loan and put your money where your mouth is ;) I expect you have a 50% chance of making money.

The actual explanation is a lot simpler; McDonalds employees are more expensive in Switzerland than in the US. You can see the same effect where I live, in Norway.


Your first point isn't too far off the mark. If goods are really 60% more expensive in Switzerland than in the US, then you'd expect people/corporations/institutions in Switzerland to use their CHF to buy dollars, buy goods in the US at a large discount and have them shipped to Switzerland, or for Swiss companies to hire US employees and pay them in USD, thus driving the USD/CHF exchange rate towards purchasing power parity.

Up to transaction costs (inc shipping) and trading restrictions, this really should happen, so it's interesting to explore why it doesn't. Typically the culprits are artificial limitations (e.g. international trade restrictions) or low-value goods where shipping costs are large relative to the cost of the item, or goods which spoil easily and so can't be easily shipped.

If you can't explain the disparity with transaction costs and trade restrictions, then there must be some other reason for CHF being so high relative to the USD. One possibility - CHF is viewed as a hedge for various risks (inflation, market crashes). It is typically anti-correlated with the S&P500, for example, and correlated with market volatility, so it's good to be holding it in a crisis. The same applies to JPY, and the opposite applies to AUD and CAD, which are seen as risk-on currencies.


Just for the record, I am not currently arguing with you, but I just thought I would point out something from real-world experience which starkly contradicts the "ideal" economic equilibrium you describe.

In my experience as a Norwegian, the parity argument isn't even close to true in the real world. There are lots of non-perishable goods here which are imported but are a lot more expensive than they are in the US. For reference, there is a 25% VAT on everything and there is occasionally an import tariff on the order ot 5%. Also some special taxes on vehicles, tobacco, alcohol and fuel, but I'll keep those separate.

Most goods here are a lot more expensive than abroad. Clothes and shoes are 2-3 times more expensive than in the US. Ditto for furniture and most non-perishable goods you would buy in a store. All food is 2-3 times more expensive, even imported, canned goods. This is in line with the labor required to stock and operate a store. Electronics are usually ~30-40% more expensive than abroad if you get them in the right place, which does more or less match the parity theory. My guess is that this is because buying these goods on the Internet is a viable option (in contrast to groceries, clothes, shoes, food, medicine, furniture etc). Hence these retailers are forced to conform, or go out of business. I am not sure how they are able to do this, whereas a clothing store or a supermarket is not. But this is what I observe. The cheapest electronics retailers are very low on staff and high on automation.

Long story short, locally labor-intensive products are obviously a lot more expensive in expensive countries. But higher salaries also have a very large effect also on the cost of imported goods, because there is a lot of labor involved during the shipping, import and sales process. If you are able to automate away some of this, you have a massive business opportunity. But it's a very obvious opening, so it is not a trivial task.


A friend of mine touring through Norway decided to get a pizza and a 6 pack of beer. Ended up costing him ~$65.


Sounds about right. My ballpark estimate just now arrived at $67. It's really funny whenever someone complains that the Bay Area is so expensive; in all areas except housing it's a lot cheaper than where I live. Salaries are higher too, if you're in software. If you work on McDonalds, though, you should probably be in Norway.


Interesting... earlier this year I was going to go for a 'Chicago Style' pizza in Moscow. Would have been around $42. Decided to go to Sbarros (closer). Initially ordered one of these "everything pizzas": $50. "nyet nyet nyet" I shouted. Got a more basic cheese/pepperoni deal for a mere... $19 I think (IIRC).

I understood I was getting 'western' luxuries in an expensive city, but it really drove home the concept of "cost of living" someplace moreso than abstract calculators. :)


There are some on-line electronics stores that run quite efficiently. In these places, the price is much closer to the USD equivalent in similar stores in the US. I think this supports the argument above related to Higher labor costs driving up prices.


TBH, of all the different companies out there, McDonald's is the one that I am shocked has not become far more automated. They operate on a scale that no other food industry business operates, yet many of the tasks are still done by people. Why don't we have fully automatic fry machines by now for example?


They do some of it:

1. Automatic drink maker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgiT5b8Z5UE

2. Automated drive through machine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxz6DSwL17s

3. Electronic order terminal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB4wqyVRn7o

4. Full on vending machine convenience stores: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/13/us/vending-machines-don-t-... (Failed, or were reduced to Redbox?)

Some projects take off, some fail. I like the automated order machines, but maybe they confuse too many people.

They probably don't roll all this out super fast, because being as large as they are, there's enormous risk in changing everything over night. I'm not sure, they may have to balance the shiny new methods against the interests against franchisees, who don't want to constantly retrain employees. But probably (hopefully) most of the good ideas are being tried out in some McDonald's somewhere.

They probably don't yet have "the robot that makes 360 gourmet burgers an hour," http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/meet-the-robot-that-makes-3...

But maybe it's easier to experiment with things on the margin at that size, so replacing your entire burger process probably lags a few years behind the technology.


If you compare the McDonalds of 1980 to today's, there has been a lot of automation.


Inertia and bureaucracy. Things stay the same because there aren't enough people that are going to make it a mission to automate these processes. They're making enough money the way things are.

You can say the same for any corporation or institution out there. Why are colleges still teaching the same way since 1850?


I get your point, however is it really true to say that? If it were, people would sell the currency to get out while the going is good wouldn't they? How could it stay consistently over priced?


Actual quote was "Burgernomics shows Switzerland has the most overvalued currency"

So, in terms of this limited real-asset convertability, yes it would be true (see footnote above).


People hold CHF as a hedge against inflation and/or government defaults, not as a growth investment.


Well, then it's not overvalued, is it? People value it as a hedge, so it's relative value increases.


In a certain sense it's always true that free-floating currencies are "correctly valued", in the sense that their value is what the market currently is willing to pay. As far as I know, CHF has no exchange restrictions or capital controls, so it's valued at whatever forex traders are willing to pay for it. If anything, the Swiss Central Bank has been trying to intervene on the other side, to bring the price down through monetary policy (due to worries that the high CHF value is hurting exports).


It's a really nice place to live. You pay for what you get...


Live near the border with France. Buy everything there in EUR.

Border is nonexistent for all practical purposes so this is very doable.


This is common on the German border also. Lots of people living in the southern part of Baden-Württemberg and commuting to jobs in Zürich and Basel.


The thing is because of people working in Swiss but living in France, housing in the part of France close to Swiss (Haute-Savoie) is amongst the most expensive. It's almost the level of Paris.


Don't you still have to go through customs and maybe pay duties since Switzerland is non-EU?


No, it's Schengen area, so no border checks. You drive across just as you would from Massachusetts to Vermont.


My understanding is that that is true for immigration, but not for customs. There are still limits on the amounts that can be imported into Switzerland, even from the EU, without duties [1]. Some products are more restricted, e.g. a limit of 0.5 kg of meat per person per day [2]. Anecdotally, this is rarely enforced, except during summer barbecue season, and customs officials have the authority to stop vehicles within 10 km of the border.

[1] http://www.ezv.admin.ch/zollinfo_privat/04342/04343/04344/04...

[2] http://www.ezv.admin.ch/zollinfo_privat/04342/04343/04349/04...


Without border checkpoints official limits are sort of irrelevant, assuming you don't try to resell what you bought.


There are checkpoints, they are (usually) manned and funnel traffic through single lanes, it's just that they rarely actually stop people.


That's how they work. I was stopped at one of those between France and Switzerland.

Stopped, searched (me, my gf at that time and the car) and drug-tested.


That's the point. They do check quite a lot of people for undeclared goods. However they're no after those who buy stuff for themselves, but for example restaurant owners who try to smuggle in cheap meat in big quantities.


The Schengen agreement does not include customs. That's in the European Union Customs Union, which Switzerland is not part of. You still have to self declare goods when entering Switzerland. Border patrol checks on suspicion.


Completely open border; still part of the Schengen area.


Here here. I've travelled through Switzerland, and can confirm that it's really expensive compared to many other countries. I made the mistake once of planning to stay overnight in Switzerland. That was expensive. About €40 to stay in a rural hostel.


I believe the phrase is "hear, hear".


Both of them are phrases. Everyone understands the, strictly speaking, incorrect one. It's nice to know the origins of the phrase, but when more people use the 'incorrect' variant than the 'correct' one, it becomes 'correct'; that's the nature of language.


Under that theory, texting will swiftly become 'correct' English, and I refuse to believe THAT.


Not really; it's a totally different medium. But there's no doubt it will have SOME effect, and - since the context we're talking about is a comment on a website - you surely have no problem with abbreviations, emoticons, etc.


Yes, to many other countries. But how about Switzerland's neighbors? 40e for a rural hostel doesn't sound expensive.


If you have a basic income, why do you need a minimum wage?


exactly.


Is that 4000CHF after tax or before?


Before.


Taxing a redistributive payment from the government makes no sense. Why not just pre-calculate how much of it goes to tax and then save everyone the paperwork?


I suspect it is exactly to prevent paperwork. Having two different tax-systems, depending on your employment status is going to be a huge mess.


A basic income does not depend on your employment status. Your point stands, however - treating every dollar the same can be simpler.


4000CHF was regarding the minimum salary, not basic income.


Alexandre and Christoph both earn the same amount of money. Alexandre has no employment expenses. Christoph has 1000 SF per year employment expenses. Income is defined as revenue minus expenses. Thus Alexandre will pay more tax than Christoph, because Alexandre has a higher income.


Another perspective here, I actually converted that into dollars and realized it's more than my salary (me being in Vietnam). However I quickly came to my senses and comfort myself that prices are different in Switzerland. Thanks for confirming this.

Out of curiosity, I wonder if you can use that money to live somewhere cheaper, maybe without letting the government know. If you can, I think that's a problem to solve before this deal can go through.


Meh, you don't have to solve all the corner cases up front. Some small percentage of the population will always try to game systems, sometimes it's just cheaper to deal with it than to try to fix it.


I recall paying 7SF for a coke when skiing 20 years ago




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