I disagree with the advice to "focus on the positive feedback". You will already have an unrealistically optimistic view of your app, because it's your baby. Your purpose in showing it to HN (or any other audience) is to get a more accurate picture of both their positive aspects and their shortcomings. If you focus only on positive feedback, you get validation, but you don't find out how to improve.
Research has found that novices disproportionately seek positive feedback, whereas experts seek negative feedback[0]. Would you rather be more like a novice, or more like an expert?
Doyen of entrepreneurs, Elon Musk, also advices entrepreneurial wannabes to seek negative feedback[1]:
"Always seek negative feedback, even though it can be mentally painful. They won't always be right, but I find the single biggest error people make is to ignore constructive, negative feedback."
I've noticed that as well in some extent in martial arts. In the beginning, you seek positive feedback -- Hey, I'm doing the thing right! After a while, you've broken past that and are looking for negatives. However, the mindset should be that finding negatives are indeed positive outcomes, and negative feedback is not actually bad at all.
I've heard someone say that there's 3 outcomes to showing somebody your work -- love it, hate it, and apathy. It's of course a spectrum, but you want to drive one of the 2 extremes rather than in the middle. If people are like "meh", then they're not going to give you any feedback.
Number 5 is correct though. If you're asking people for feedback, very few of us want to pay right now. Otherwise we'll ignore it, because spending time on the internet giving you feedback is just something we like to do and not something we have to.
I understand the point you and others are making - it is the standard advice after all, now endorsed by Tony Stark himself!
But, I still believe it's better to ignore negative feedback if it demoralises you so much that you give up on your idea, or makes you feel you're not good enough.
The keyword in your quote is "constructive", which is the bit that is often missing on HN.
After some thought I felt that it'd be nice to not let any 'Show HN posts' pass through without some sort of criticism and/or value assessment. Give it a domain-ban, if the post deserves it... but don't let it get away without the Mordor's eye.
Quite often we see some really nice pieces of work dropping off the new-page with just 1/2 votes. Later the same page pops up to the front with better timing or sort. And also sometimes not so great pieces of work pop up on the front page simply because of timing, clout and other factors - call it kismet, not karma.
I personally try to vote projects off the new page, to support ones which are good, but probably not many HN'ers waylay (I could be totally wrong on this assumption though) the new submissions page.
Here is what I think that could be done:
All show HN: posts be given a round of review/criticism. Let there be some extra weight, extra time and also heavier penalty during the charged life of such a post. A separate tab like Ask HN: perhaps?
I was just thinking about this today. Funny enough, the stuff HN says usually comes up when I talk to people while I'm out or talking to customers. They have the same concerns, but HN will just tell you up front, whereas most people just won't say anything. Would you rather know what people are thinking, or not know anything at all?
I'd say you should just focus on answering people's questions/criticisms as long as they aren't trolling. I did a Show HN today, and while a lot of it was critical, I think most of it was valid: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5828480 - we also got some great suggestions on parts that were confusing.
We require Facebook, we have a credit card with up front payment. This is literally as bad as it gets, in terms of HN standards. And we got plenty of people who paid us money up front and Facebook connected (some people are paying us $200 and giving us access to a lot of Facebook information and they've never met us before). When you're dealing with money and identity, I think you should address people's concerns and take it seriously. Difficult to sweep that stuff under the rug and pretend like it's not a big deal to take someone's money or identity and use it in some way.
I'd say expect that HN will be critical, as will most people. At least HN is telling you. Most people won't care enough to take time and comment.
Reminds me of a quote that I really like: "The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference." - Eli Wiesel
Good points, Jared. My post veers a bit on the negative side, but I just wanted to address the things that are demoralising to people putting up stuff for feedback. You've been around a long time building and shipping stuff, so you probably have a thick skin.
I agree that it's better to get some critical feedback than none, but only if it's on-topic. A lot of times, I see Show HN posts derailed by comments on stuff that doesn't even matter.
There are entire books written on pricing. I recommend Strategy and Tactics of Pricing. It's a short, focused textbook and very illuminating. I reviewed it last year[1].
Remember: all passionate arguments about technology are close to being total irrelevancies in the face of the leverage good pricing gives you.
Rails vs Node, Ember vs Angular, ConfusingName vs PuntasmicNomenclature: these arguments have next to zero influence over your profitability and cashflow.
It is a lever you will not get to pull very often, so you might as well take a little time to think about it.
1. Provide a demo option if login's required
To avoid asking for people to use features like facebook connect upfront allow them to use a demo version of the app. This gives them a chance to have a play with the app before committing to it / exposing their identity. That's particularly useful for HN audience who will pop to your site in order to give you feedback, but also useful to potential users who want to understand more about what your site is than they read on the blurb on the front page.
2. Read all feedback and decide what's relevant
Ignoring feedback on particular subject areas just creates a blind spot. Read all feedback and use your own judgement to determine if the person has a point or not. They may be wrong, you may be wrong - but at least if you read the feedback you'll have considered things you may not have previously.
3. Focus on the constructive feedback.
Pay more attention to comments which give a problem coupled with a solution - those pointing out issues with no suggestions are more likely to be ranting (~generalisation) whilst those singing your praises aren't giving you anything to improve what you've put out there (though a few such comments are always nice to soothe the ego after reading some of the harsher posts).
4. Look for common themes in advice.
If lots of people are giving the same advice (e.g. I wouldn't pay $100 for this up front, but I would pay $10 a month) consider what they're suggesting - whereas if one person's ranting that something's too expensive you can probably ignore it. As with all advice it's about using your judgement rather than ignoring the advice outright because it's about xyz.
5. Avoid asking for a credit card upfront
Same as #1 - provide a demo option which avoids the need for a credit card / perhaps give a first month free option to allow use of the product without card details. If someone from HN goes to check out your app and give you feedback, you shouldn't charge them for their advice. If a potential user can't play with the app before paying for it (or trusting you with their details having seen no more than the front page) they'll also be less likely to join.
My take on Hacker News feedback is don't ask people for feedback full stop. This place used to be great for getting valuable feedback and you still get decent feedback from some, but this place has become so negative that people will nitpick and call you out on the smallest things.
Case in point was a submission from a few days ago called Unsplash (http://unsplash.com) a guy gives away ten free high quality images you can use for anything every ten days. The first ten images were geared towards startups of his Macbook, iPhone and iPad. There were some, "Thank you, nice work"'s and then there were people complaining about it breaching Apple style guidelines because the phone wasn't face on, etc.
Take any feedback from this place with a grain of salt.
IIRC, that submitter ridiculed stock photos harshly in the original title and so that's why people reacted with negativeness and also, the points about Apples logo not being eligible for unapproved advertising is actuallynNi e to know
The minute slice of opinion represented here is just not representative of anything approaching a real life market. Even in tech, HN is a special case. You're as likely to reinforce your own incorrect group think as you are to get genuinely good advice, and sometimes it's tough to tell the difference.
In the rare times when I've submitted something (that I've made) to HN, whether it be a small project or just a blog post, I kind of relish criticism. I don't think what I've created is all that great, in the scheme of things, but the fact that I put energy into it and think it's worth notifying the public means that at least at the subconscious level, I'm confident that what I've made has some merit.
So hearing praise is nice...I greatly appreciate it that people take the time out of their busy days (or HN browsing, and what have you) to check out the link and then take the time to say something positive...but the substance of the praise isn't usually constructive, because if I've done something good enough to praise, then theoretically, it's natural that people like it for the same reasons that I had for even making it.
But criticism...well, I usually self-critique pretty hard, but I don't think you can ever impartially critique yourself. When people rail on the shortcomings that I know exist, even just putting up a defense or an explanation is valuable to me, because I may have underestimated critical flaws...but if my judgment was right, it's still a useful critical process to re-examine those assumptions.
And of course, the gold standard is when you get criticism for things you didn't even realize were problems...and that's immensely helpful. To use that cliche saying, what's worse than harsh criticism is being ignored. And I think it's much easier to psychologically motivate yourself in times of criticism than it is to persevere when no one cares even enough to troll you.
And one last thought...the anonymous nature of the Internet does make it easy for strangers to flame each other. But the other side of the coin is that the personal nature of face-to-face contact often stifles much needed constructive criticism. Maybe HN's level of constructive-to-trolling criticism isn't perfect, but it's one of the better places to get free, useful analysis of your work by likeminded people.
> If you don’t have a signup method other than Facebook, for the love of God, don’t put your app on HN until you add it. HN hates Facebook with a passion, and using only FB connect will make sure you don’t get any useful feedback on the actual app.
it's not only because of hate, but because people who use facebook not necessarily want to share access to their profile to every random app.
Figure out what people do like about your app and drill down. Remember, your aim is not to please everyone. Your aim is to just find some people who love your product, however crappy it may be.
The extreme example of this, however, is that you end up building your product for one person. I mean that's an obvious failure mode, and in practice you'd certainly hope to get more users than that, but at some point you've got to decide what market you're going after beyond just, 'The people who like your product just as it is.'
Ideally everyone would like your product. That's rarely going to happen, I suspect, because people have different needs for most things - but generally the thing with the more general appeal seems likely to win unless your thing is worth an incredible amount to the few who like it.
HN is great for getting exposure, provided you find the value of the exposure & feedback worth the cost of collecting & processing it. The author's point "Unless you’re selling something for which HN is going to be the main target market (shudder)..." is good to keep in mind regarding all HN feedback, not just pricing.
The feedback you should pay most attention to is that from your actual target market. Heck, most products in existence that generate tens of millions of dollars per year in sales would be flogged mercilessly if posted to HN with a request for feedback.
Screw all that. Go find actual customers and use their feedback to figure out how to meet actual needs sufficiently to make some kind of transaction happen. And if your target market is HN, then may God have mercy on your soul.
Good idea for a post, I bet there will be some good advice that surfaces here on the topic.
I think you are slightly off on the FB comment though.
>HN hates Facebook with a passion, and using only FB connect will make sure you don’t get any useful feedback on the actual app.
Actually, HN hates when developers use FB as the only method of signing in. I haven't complained about it, but agree with HN on this topic. Two things magnify the hate:
1) No discernible advantage of using FB for the user.
2) Asking for permissions which the user does not understand why you are asking.
My suggestion: Simply ask for comments on the aspects that you want feedback for. Tell the readership, "I'm particularly interested in people's thoughts on X, Y, Z" If you don't value or want feedback on design or pricing tell the readership: "The design and pricing information are in flux, so don't waste too much time critiquing those"
If you post an app. I will spend my time critiquing the design and it would be annoying to do that, only to have my comments jettisoned out of hand.
Dunno why folks like to single out HN (or any other geek commenting venues). A lot of people wandering by are thinking the same things HN commenters are - people who are cheap or people who nitpick the easy-to-spot visual stuff... they just don't have an easy and convenient venue to talk about that. When you open yourself to feedback more directly by posting to a place like HN, all that silent junk becomes vocal. Happens the same anywhere.
I was just going to post the same, I don't remember many "I want it but only if you lower your price" but instead tons of "raise your price, damn it!" (and not only from patio11).
Ok maybe some says "I won't buy it because I can do the same in a cheaper way" but those won't buy your service/product either way
so basically avoid any criticism, push hand to your ears and start chanting LALALAALLALALALA? why even ask for feedback you are not willing to take criticism? I agree HN sometime can be harsh, but I think this actually reflects how the "world" will feel like about it.
It might help to actually read my article, otherwise you're saying exactly the kind of stuff I'm telling people to ignore. Others in this thread have made the same point I think you're trying to make in a much more civil and agreeable manner.
In my experience a nice way to handle HN feedback (or for that matter f/b from anywhere) is to take it all home "as is". Then look at it later, say after a few hours or days or weeks. That depends on how sore the embarrassment was.
One way to help yourself here is to remember the Reid Hoffman's quote:
"If you're not embarrassed by the first version of your product, you've launched too late."
I believe calmness and coolness of another time can reveal so much about what people were trying to communicate early on. There is so much to learn about your product/messaging that could have been, and that's where negatively coated feedback comes in handy. Call it shameless or thick skinned but be prepared for all sorts of feedback.
If you rewire the brain to reframe criticism and rejection as positive, ala Rejection Therapy[1], you'll learn more from each experience, and any negative aspects will be "water off a duck's back" as the saying goes.
In fact, getting rejected feels like a win now. It feels like accomplishment and relief.
And once again a post that is deeply dismissive of HN (basically "don't listen to anything but hurrah's, and they're all cheap bastards anyways". Well if you're going to butter us up first...), posted to HN.
There are a growing contingent of "positivity-only" champions who seem to misunderstand the point of Show HNs. Is this some sort of generational thing? Some sort of side-effect of the positive-feedback experiment?
Yeah, I don't get the "positivity only" thing. Obviously criticism should be polite and friendly and encouraging of the good parts, but you see a problem and you're being asked for feedback, you should say it.
I mean, has anybody ever been to an artist critique at an educational institution? artists. Seriously, the group of people with the worst reputation for being wishy-washy and aimless? They're freaking merciless in critique, and this is accepted as normal, because it's understood that this is healthy for your craft.
Research has found that novices disproportionately seek positive feedback, whereas experts seek negative feedback[0]. Would you rather be more like a novice, or more like an expert?
Doyen of entrepreneurs, Elon Musk, also advices entrepreneurial wannabes to seek negative feedback[1]:
"Always seek negative feedback, even though it can be mentally painful. They won't always be right, but I find the single biggest error people make is to ignore constructive, negative feedback."
[0] http://blogs.cuit.columbia.edu/sf2559/files/2011/08/FF_JCR_F...
[1] http://news.investors.com/management-leaders-in-success/0821...