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A tale of demonic possession predicted the decline of an early medieval empire (smithsonianmag.com)
52 points by diodorus 9 days ago | hide | past | favorite | 74 comments





This bit about the pope "crowning Charlemagne the Roman emperor" was a sort of propaganda move, since the Roman empire still existed (in Constantinople), and the Franks were not Roman. The actual Romans weren't too happy about it.

Its arguable. Charlemagne controlled Rome, so he had a vague claim to be a rule of the largest successor state. The Eastern Roman empire did have political continuity but was not all the Roman - it was culturally and linguistically Greek, and did not control Rome itself.

Yeah, I don't think one has much of a claim to be Roman emperor if they aren't, you know, in possession of Rome. The Taiwanese government considers themselves to be the legitimate Chinese government, but as they aren't in possession of China nobody really agrees with that claim. IDK why people treat Byzantium's claim of being Roman any differently.

Well technically a Roman emperor moved the capital there while it was still a Roman empire. It's a little bit more complicated than a clear cut "Rome or not not Rome". Rome started as a city and a specific people but after many many centuries it became a much more abstract thing

Because it was different. There’s a lot of history involved which is easy to read. I’d also recommend Dan Carlin’s series Thor’s Angels which lays it out pretty clearly.

Twentieth century Chinese history isn't a good comparison. The Roman empire sometimes had multiple emperors and multiple capital cities, and this complicated situation lasted for hundreds of years. Despite being called the Roman empire, the capital's location was no longer essential.

Didn't so many people in history proclaim themself as the pope that even the Catholic church no longer is able to give an exact number?

It seems the word for "papa" in Latin or Greek was originally an affectionate way of referring to a bishop. Several major cities in the Roman empire had bishops that used "pope" as a title. There were bitter disputes between them. Rome was pretty persistent about trying to pull rank.

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Alexandria


I am a traditional Catholic, and I can say that for us, such stories are not mere fairy tales. The spiritual world is something entirely normal for a Catholic. We are convinced that demonic possessions do happen (at the invitation of the person themselves), although many cases are simply mental illnesses. Traditional Catholics, however, should not be particularly interested in this, let alone listen to any messages from the devil. One does not negotiate with the devil :-)

No matter your beliefs on the supernatural, it should be clear that the story of Wiggo was an actual "fairy tale" made up by Einhard as a proxy for airing his disdain for the current state of the empire.

The trick is to discern which input stream is of which source. We have positive thoughts/feelings, negative thoughts/feelings, and our own thoughts/feelings.

"Know thyself." and "Know your enemy." are two good quotes related to this most important fight of all our lives.

The key to the 1st Beatitude ("Blessed are the poor in Spirit, for theirs shall be the Kingdom of Heaven.") is to enter the Path of Love by wishing for our Creator to take Its Spirit (our Conscience) back into Itself so that we can cleanse and purify our soul of our selfish vice-eous tendencies.

After making that wish/prayer and then doing much work using "Hallowed be Thy Name" (repeating a two-syllable Name of God, such as Yah-weh, Al-lah, Di-os, De-us, Nn-guy, Brah-man, ...) one's soul's heart is enlightened whereby the vices are replaced by their corresponding virtue. There are 19 such pairs. If one sees the path through to the end, one fully enlightens one's soul's heart and, a short time later, fulfills the 5th Beatitude: "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."

Once one performs the wish/prayer as mentioned in my 3rd paragraph, one's discernment improves and we gain strength in fighting the enemy of man, that selfish enemy of man, the deceiver or man, and bane of mankind since time immemorial.

"On Earth as it is in Heaven." That is what we are capable of choosing, but we must embrace God's compassionate service to achieve it. And we must all choose it, in unity of the human race, unity of our Creator, and unity of Love as the foundation of all religion.

"To love God with all one's being, and to love one's neighbor as oneself." --The Great(est) Command(ment)


Can you offer a little syllabus for this comment? It reminds me of Aldous Huxley's "The Perennial Philosophy" in your interpretation of the Beatitudes through a universalist lens... but where do you get the concept of 19 pairs of virtues and vices from? The only tradition I know of where 19 is a sacred number is Bahai?

I bought but haven't yet read Huxley's excellent work, except a bit of the beginning where I learned he was a Sufi (in spirit, within the purpose of God's unifying design, as we are members of the compassionate people within all Earth's cultures) and Rumi's excellent aphorism:

  Love is the astrolabe of God's mysteries.
He is our kin, but I haven't been of mind to commit to that work, yet. Perhaps in time.

The 19 pairs of virtues and vices are from the Quran, as explained by our Sufi understanding. Whether or not we are Sunni or Shi'ite, I really have no idea. We don't dwell on such differences, as they are born of ignorant human friction that impedes our human race's unity. As a born Christian, the Bible remains the basis from which I understand life's purpose; and the Quran is in harmony with it, no matter how many ignorantly self-righteous and often oppressive fools claim otherwise.

If you want more details, you can ask me specific questions but they're likely already present in my last two weeks' comment history. The key detail is that once you make that important prayer/wish, you will be guided along your path to reach your teacher. As with all religion, it's between you and our Creator.

Here's two sub-threads that should be of help:

1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42322933

2) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42317164

We love you. I am at your service.

"The Way goes in." --Rumi


i am still waiting for a demon to tell me something non-obvious that a supernatural being should obviously know. Failing that, all tales of demons or genies or aliens can be discounted as fairy tales.

How are you in contact with a number of supposed demons for them to tell you anything at all?

I am not a traditional anything, but the usefulness of the concept of "demon" - as the personification of a vice, or misfortune, or cultural problem, or even mental illness - is shown I think by its durability across traditions as a useful explanatory model (and a metaphor.) They exist like an uncollapsed wave function - you will never meet one, so the validity of its existence" is always somewhat unclear, but it can be very useful to act as if it is quite real.

This is a certain kind of Catholicism.

Thank you for sharing your perspective in a straightforward way.

To those downvoting - why? Parent is not trying to convince, just sharing. I found it interesting, relevant, and additive to the conversation.


Maybe because magical thinking, based entirely on early childhood brainwashing and cultural conditioning and peer-pressure, has no place here.

If I wrote that I am a Buddhist or that I use Tarot cards, would I also deserve a downvote? I became interested in Catholicism after 30, entirely on my own, as the only person among my friends and surroundings. The argument about cultural conditioning is misplaced, because contemporary western culture (where I live) is extremely anti-Catholic.

If I ask you whether you believe in Jesus, you'll probably say no. Do you know that he is a historical figure? Traditional Catholicism understands "faith" as a purely rational approach, not an emotional one. You examine certain issues and rationally come to a conclusion about whether they are convincing to you or not.

I simply belong to the group that is convinced of the truth of Catholicism. Most people today do not. However, most people do not approach this matter objectively but rather emotionally.


Not a bad response compared to the typical religious view.

I'd maybe add that religions also shift over time.

Catholics are also being swayed by the Evangelicals.

You are explaining kind of a Jesuit view of analysis, and older view of thought.

I'm not talking about the old persecutions the Church did. But after the enlightenment up to last 100 years, Catholics used to be supporters of Science, logic and reason. They were strongly in support of Religion and Science existing separately. Religion is about faith, it is beyond science, and you shouldn't mix them.

But more recently in the US, all Christian churches have started to be a bit radicalized by the Evangelicals.

So your view might be in minority.


Now enough about secularism…

That's where we're at now, eh? "I know you are, but what am I?"

It was a Reddit-like atheist fedora comment, it’s not deserving of more.

You know what? Fair enough. Carry on.

Please list examples of the magical thinking fundamental to secularism.

Don't know why this is getting downvotes. It's apropos to the post.

unresolved coup leading to another coup; then civil war... A tale as old as time.

[flagged]


Judging by posts like yours, where we are in the US right now is deep in delusion. To compare the current situation in the US even remotely to the fall of the Carolingian dynasty shows severe lack of historical knowledge and perspective.

Why do you say that? The US situation looks pretty precarious right now.

For one thing, there has been nothing that can reasonably be described as a coup. Coups involve serious violence (generally from the military), and we haven't had that. For another, we aren't at the point of civil war.

Honestly, by far the biggest threat to the stability of the country is the meme that the country is unstable. That sort of idea pushes people into taking drastic actions because they have to "save" things. But things are working ok (not perfectly), and if people start taking drastic action it will certainly hurt rather than help.


If you believe the dumbest propaganda the CIA and Mockingbird media could come up with, you could have that perspective and think you're reasonable.

But yeah, you sound vaccinated.


We should be so lucky

Per my anecdotal surveys, many who have done LSD, many of whom otherwise are atheists, believe that demons are totally real.

Crowley saw demons as manifestations of the mind's architecture - real in their effects, but originating from within rather than existing as independent external entities. To that effect, they are very real, in the same way that the color green is real - subjectively experienced by humans with normal color vision, yet meaningless to a being with a different sensory architecture.

I too think demons exist but metaphorically only, in terms subconscious desires of the mind and how they manifest. For bad demons for example serial killers often report they feel possesed by demons. Demons and God(s) are deep irrational projections of the human mind. Power and greed could also be viewed throw this prism.

Crowley absolutely believed in demons and angels as Christians believe in them. See the HGA, the famous “Lam”. Although they aren’t seen as mutually exclusive

Crowley was not a truthful person. He was a bringer of darkness, not of light. Of selfish ignorance, not compassionate service.

No one can serve two masters.


Ok, so two is out, how about three? Like, some sort of trinity?

The Creator is a singleton, the Prime Mover, the Ultimate Loner, Unfathomable and Timeless beyond our comprehension.

We are one human race, each of us with both positive and negative potentials, as well as the ability to wallow in ignorance or choose to become either more selfish or more compassionate. Those are the three possible paths a human can traverse. There is no fourth path.

There is one foundation of all forms of religion, regardless of customs or culture, and is always to become consumed by compassion for all human beings, in service to the Divine Will. There is no -- and must not be any human-dictated -- compulsion in religion.

"The greatest among you will be the servant of all."

There are many triples in this universe, including: the relationship between (1) our Creator, (2) Its servants, and (3) the Holy Spirit that facilitates our self-evolving towards becoming consumed by love, irrespective of form of religion. This concept is not unlike an RDF triple.

Only the One Creator may be worshipped, but the human servants of God are sent here to teach us how to live in harmony with the Earth for universal peace and the happiness of all human beings, including the belligerently selfish that choose to make mischief.

The servants of God always suggest that their contemporaries choose to connect with our Creator, never to worship themselves. They are here to help us see the Way, the direction towards It, how to create happiness.

Such a one is always humble; if they're not, then they're a faker, a liar, a hypocrite, a manipulator, or merely deluded into believing the lies of our horrible enemy, the deceiver of mankind, who ever works on our hearts and minds to distract us from the caring compassion we could be choosing.

"The Way goes in." --Rumi


"Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like uh, your opinion, man." --The Dude

You just stated your opinion that I can't possibly be explaining the truth because you don't believe that such truth is either an objective facet of our shared reality or that anyone -- much less me, religious programmer chess aficianado on HN -- can know such truth. Your opinion is the result of your choosing to ignore and deny the truth, which is well within your right.

My knowledge is not an opinion, but I fully expect most people to doubt that I am describing our shared objective. The world is not the way it is because so many people have tried to learn about our human nature or how and why we should be self-evolving ourselves toward Wisdom and compassion. No, willful ignorance is rampant upon this Earth and its effects are why this world is as it is, on its current baleful trajectory.

Your thinking that you know me is of no consequence compared to my understanding of how and why you think the way you do. Your fanciful conjectures are but a trifle in the sea of truth within which we exist. I am explaining a crucial aspect of the truth, in serviceful honesty and compassion.

You are free to make of it what you will; I know your life (and those around you) will be happier if you act upon my advice, but which decisions you sow are your karma to reap in their own good time. Good luck! As with all things human, you have the free will to choose however you like, in ignorance or in Wisdom. Just don't think that the universe is ignoring you or failing to propagate your karma. We all reap what we sow, for good or ill. It the most pivotal dimension to our human reality.

When I say that I love you, I do so in the purest meaning of the word, for I (1) only want you and all those around you to be happy, and (2) ask for nothing from you for myself or any cultures I am a part of.

Peace be with you. We truly love you.


“The worst thing is not being wrong, but being sure one is not wrong.” — Paul Tournier

The best thing is to know that you know you are right.

It takes humility to become a Dunning-Kruger true-expert.

For me to act like I don't know the truth is a kind of lie, and I despise lies.

I know that I know, and you think that I do not know, while I know that you do not know that I can know what I know, but that's because you don't even believe that what I know can be known, ya know? No, you don't, and I know you don't, thus your protestations and opinions are irrelevant.

You know the non-achievers in Dunning-Kruger? As an expert, I know why they're the way they are, and I know how they could get better. That's because I've trod the humble road of discovery and hard work, and I bear the fruits of that labor. Part of that fruit is knowing that I know. "Know thyself" is important for a reason. If you read what I write with an open mind, you will learn more about yourself.

The importance of humble, honest, relentless effort is the most crucial takeaway from D-K. That's why the low-achievers think more highly of themselves than they should, and why the opposite is true of the high-achievers.


“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves” -- Matthew 7:15

Good thing I love everyone and have a loving family with two exceptional teenagers in this age of troubled youth. We laugh and have fun and my wife and kids are beloved by everyone they know, and each of us have developed personal skillsets that bring us and those around us joy.

I was about to post this, from memory:

"You will know them by their fruits."

Then I DDG'd it, and -- GUESS WHAT!? -- it was the verses that follow the verse you supplied :-)

Matthew 7:16-20:

You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

You know what the math genius janitor last said just after he left the bar in "Good Will Hunting", right?


I've been having fun with your unwarranted grandiosity, but seriously, this very much reads like someone in the middle of a manic episode, who believes themselves to have amazing capabilities and secret knowledge, and who needs to proselytize in exhausting detail their magical understanding and universal love to everyone who will hear it. I sincerely hope you're doing as well as you say you are, because it's a bit concerning.

Exactly.

I also suggested he get some counseling a few days ago. He is deep in the delusions.

I read his comments from time to time as entertainment on how crazy people are. To kind of keep tabs on what kind of crazy people exist, and what they are saying.

But after his latest comments, it is little more depressing. A raving lunatic can be entertaining. But it isn't entertaining anymore to know someone is having that many problems, and needs help.

Of course, it is on the internet, an unreliable narrator. Could just be a troll? Hard to tell.


I see there's enough apples to go around to those who would rather call me names and reply to each other than try to mount a cogent argument to the facts of life. Of course, it's easier for them to think I'm crazy or delusional than it is for them to understand that they're just plain stupid and arrogant. Of course, the biggest problem with the stupid is that they're often too arogant and stupid to know how stupid they are. That's why the Earth is as it is, after millenia of the carnage caused by widespread human idiocy and cruelty.

The first two casualities of the enemy of truth's war on human happiness are truth and love. Seeking deeper truths leads us to the importance of love, and seeking to be more loving grants us access to deeper truths. They are the two most necessary components of our virtues' upward developmental spiral.

I've heard it said, "Hurt people hurt people." Ad hominems and calling someone crazy is always the way of the vanguished foe, the ones whom words fail, and whose intellects have broken under the strain of the truth.

Once the ad hominems start, their loss has been written in pen by the arbiter, and the victor can explain the blunders that led to their overwhelming victory.


I am genuinely expressing my concern, but apparently that's upsetting, and I could see how that would be, but I hope you're able to reflect enough how your words would appear delusion to those who don't share your enlightenment. Your talk about the power of love and truth - it's not that profound, but you seem to think it's incredibly powerful, when it's just trite. And yes, when you say thing like "deeper truths" it sounds like you're celebrating secret knowledge, that you think you're smarter than everyone else for discovering the power of love.

You don't even know that you are the one so grandiose that you see fit to diagnose someone over the internet (you're a freaking software developer).

Look, Occam's Razor says you're arrogant and ignorant, ok? But your ego is fighting this glaringly obvious truth because you're willfully ignorant and arrogant.

You can't make a cogent argument to a single point I've made, so Occam's Razor should be pointing you in a different direction than to keep up your incurious arrogance.

You tried to accuse me of being a false prophet, a wolf in sheep's clothing, with a Bible verse that only led to the next verses backing up my explanation that you were replying to, where I explained that knowing the truth is a fruit of the Path of Love.

Have you learned nothing from Dunning-Kruger? You have no humility, no points to make, and only ad hominems, in the face of an expert who has done the humble work to become a better person. Your "concern" could not be more worthless. It is born of your fragile ego that knows that if you follow the Path of Love, it will be transmuted from an arrogant fool into a selflessly compassionate bearer of Wisdom.

Pride goeth before the fall. My work here is not born of pride, but simply of my duty to bear witness to the truth; this is a compassionate act of service to you and all who read this. I say this in friendship, for your benefit, not mine.

Your attacking my person and the love I am trying to teach is not good for your happiness. Not believing in gravity will not save you from getting hurt falling from a height, and you are running towards the cliff's edge.

I have come in peace and kindness; you should treat both myself and the truth I convey better than you have. A mind only works when it's open, right?


I'm genuinely concerned that you believe your gish gallop constitutes refutable, cogent, points or actionable ideas. At this point I can only assume you're using ChatGPT to generate this text. On that note, I'm done. Please take care of yourself.

> At this point I can only assume you're using ChatGPT to generate this text

When you assume, you don't make an ass out of me.

Of course that's what you choose to believe, as you have no interest in learning the truth, and your ego generates a thousand reasons for you to keep playing the fool.

No, friend, this is real intelligence.

Thanks for playing. Buh-bye. Enjoy those apples.

Sketchy, indeed. Oh, Canada!

Questioning a man on the internet's mental health. Alrrrrighty, then.

"This house is clean." --Ace Ventura, Canadian pet detective


As I mentioned before, you haven't made any points with enough substance to argue against.

Anybody can say "I know the truth and you are wrong".

How do propose anybody argue against that. On what basis can anybody argue against what you have in your head, but is secret and un-knowable?

When making any counter arguments, you call them attacks and then start quoting a lot about Dunning-Kruger as if that is not an ad-hominem in return.

Frankly you scare me, so I'm out. Not even joking, you're scary.

On other hand. You put out 'a-lot' of text. So I'm also not discounting the possibility that this is GPT output just to Troll.


You only showed up here to call me names anyway, adding a few more here before noping out.

Perhaps your fear is the universe warning you that denigrating someone who loves you and is serving you is problematic for your happiness, which is precisely what I am trying to educate you on how to prevent.

Your selfish ego does not want to be destroyed by your choosing to embark on the Path of Love. Most people only identify with that negative ego, and believe its lies that keep us locked in cycles of selfish misery. We must overcome its lies in order to begin transmuting its/our heart's vices into their corresponding virtues.

It takes intellectual curiosity and bravery to embrace new layers of the universe's information, and in our human case, our resistence to expanding our knowledge into Wisdom comes from within our own being.

In our conversations, Occam's Razor is just as important as D-K for you, my friend. The reason that you can't make a cogent point is the simplest explanation of all: the truth can't be argued with. This truth and my conveying it here are built upon the simple fact that I love you, no matter what names you call me from high upon your lofty perch made of horsesh_t and bullsh_t and arrogance and ignorance.

ETA:

> On other hand. You put out 'a-lot' of text. So I'm also not discounting the possibility that this is GPT output just to Troll.

I took typing in 10th grade and was already a voracious programmer. That was 40ish years ago. Occam's Razor explains my prodigious and intricate writing. It is a part of my duty. Thanks for helping me organize my thoughts in realtime.

Occam's Razor should explain why you can't argue one jot with me, my friend. Your ego is not your friend.

And what, pray tell, counter arguments have you two presented me?


You quote these terms a lot, seemingly as responses to an argument. Just saying the other person is suffering D-K and should use Occam's Razer is itself not a winning argument. If you are trying to make an argument, don't just state something outlandish, then tell the other person 'use Occam's Razer' and think you won something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Try using a more formal approach, state something more tangible, some premises, and follow by some point-to-point logic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument

If you are going to start so far outside normal conventions, try providing a little more background, a setup for the argument, then make a case for some point.

This can all seem difficult with these short internet arguments. But since you already put out so much text it shouldn't be a problem, maybe this would be more productive.


I have explained how D-K's two resulting groups vary and why those differences are important for human spiritual development.

The fact that you think I should read about topics I already understand is just more arrogance from you, my friend.

You started calling me names and suggesting that I seek mental health help. Do you not find your behavior problematic? You should, and that's why I refer you to Occam's Razor. The term 'ignorance' is based upon one ignoring the truth. You and your friend have together questioned my mental health while I type rings around you, encircling you with unassailable logic based upon compassionate self-evolution of ourselves via learning how to make better decisions.

Your ego can't cope with the truth, because I'm trying to help you rid yourself of it. Read my explanation about the Golden State Killer, and know that I am not making sh_t up, and also know that your belief system has ZERO explanation for either that bastard's behaviors or your own stooping to call me names and question my mental health, all because you can't assail our explanations of the universe vis a vis our moral predicament.

At some point, Eugene Parker simply stopped arguing with the established astrophysics community and merely said, "We'll see who falls flat." And now the Parker Solar Probe is doing its thing out in space. There is no reason that the "Sufi Science of Human Self-Evolution" would face any less a challenge. In fact, such resistence is to be expected, because all our egos fight this path. I am not superior to anyone, I've simply been granted the grace to make a bit of progress on the path, and have learned from people far greater than myself.

Humility is the most important result of D-K, and neither of you two have a lick of it. That's why I keep bringing it up, friend. Few of Eugene Parker's contemporaries had any, either.


In the Golden State Killer's confession, he explained how a force would enter him and make him commit his brutally horrific crimes.

He said that he later got stronger and was able to keep it out. (IIRC)

The best help one can get requires that we pray to God with all our heart to guide us to the help we need. It requires clairity and humility and an honest seeking that will result in our finding the path that both makes us happier and reduces the unhappiness we cause others.

Such negative forces in the universe actively work in opposition to all happiness, both ours and those around us, but we are completely free to remain ignorant of their existence and Wisdom's teachings about human nature and our role as the moral agents of this world, with the requisite abilities and responsibilities it entails.

"The Way goes in." --Rumi

Look at Gukesh's face, his happiness and success, and know there is a direct correlation. This is because our life is a series of causes whose effects result according to a logic beyond what is currently accepted as present.

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled is to convince the world he didn't exist." --from The Usual Suspects

Its effects on our minds (reasons, faulty data, and ill-logic) and hearts (selfish desires, ideals, attitudes, and behaviors) are the reason so much of the world is filled with misery, strife, and oppression. We must rise above our animal selfishness and will to competition, and embrace humanity and humanitarianism. In other words, we must resist our common enemy, who works on all our beings, and it has obviously been very successful.

Note that most people can't be occupied like the GSK was, although he probably didn't care for a long while thus refusing to fight it. The vast majority of us just have to contend with its suggested thoughts and feelings. It is almost always (IIUC) within our capability to resist sefishly ignorant possibilities. Note that we are all presented with suicide; it's part of its m.o., and we all must contend with that common tactic.

We love you. May peace be with us all as the selfish do their worst. The more of us that choose compassion, the sooner and more quickly this world will improve.


> We must rise above our animal selfishness and will to competition, and embrace humanity and humanitarianism. In other words, we must resist our common enemy, who works on all our beings, and it has obviously been very successful.

I generally dislike shifting the responsibility for the ills of the world onto some supernatural force. It feels like a cop-out. That said, your end result of pursuing humanitarianism and the common-good is great (and something that I believe everyone should strive towards), so however you arrive at that conclusion doesn't matter too much.


It is very rare (IIUC) that a person is forced to choose the selfishly callous acts that cause harm, however intentional or not. No, the vast majority of us are merely presented the possibilities (often in line with our personal predilections, often aligned with our cultures) after which we choose to act upon their ideas and feelings.

That rare person who is forced is the realm of the mentally ill and can be caused by physical problems such as heavy metal poisoning or trauma, especially to the head.

The key is our all accepting that we are responsible for the choices we make and their effects on others, and that our life's work is to learn how to make better choices in order to minimize unhappiness for others and maximize their (and our as the karmic result) happiness.

Look at the despots and massively selfish; they are never happy tho they may have all manner of money and the pleasures that can be bought. Happiness cannot be bought, it can only be earned in honest choosing and then reaping our sowing.

This cause and effect is a clue the universe gives us that how and what we choose are really important to our long-term peace and happiness, both individually and collectively. It is either the stick or carrot that tries to push us away from vice and toward virtue. This feedback system, like the entire universe, is designed for our happiness, but our free will remains sacrosanct, for good or ill, for Wisdom or ignorance, for love or hate. Like all things human, it is our choice.


I hope you vote for love and peace, too many Christians don't

What you say is also true of the majority of all people (thus far) of all forms of religion, as well as the atheists and agnostics. This is a human tendency; engaging in religiosity is not the purpose of religion; self-evolving (with the help of our Creator and Its universe) one's heart and mind is.

A religion without a compassionate basis has entirely lost its way, and that compassion must be for one and all people, not just their own kind/culture/society/whatever. No! That's the way of mammals; we must use our extraordinary human gifts choose to be much, much more, working beyond our tribes because we are one single human race, and we must expand our consciousness and ideals to embrace that essential fact.

Individual peace is the result of choosing service-oriented, active compassion/love. There is no other way, otherwise the inner tension pesists, including the results of willful ignorance to our need to self-evolve.

We must choose to try to help those around us, after we have stopped cruelly ignoring their unhappiness and/or, worst of all, willfully causing their misery. This also requires our refusing to coldly accept the oppression of the innocent. Our love for them must be of a different character and verve than our love for the oppressors.


That reminds me of this account from 1692 of someone who reported themselves to the priest.

====

Johannes Nider (1692, Liber II, Cap. 41) gives this account:

I shall ... show how so many people are deceived in their sleep, that upon wakening they altogether believe that they have actually seen what has happened only in the inner part of the mind. I heard my teacher give this account: a certain priest of our order entered a village where he came upon a woman so out of her senses that she believed herself to be transported through the air during the night with Diana and other women. When he attempted to remove this heresy from her by means of wholesome discourse she steadfastly maintained her belief. The priest then asked her: "Allow me to be present when you depart on the next occasion." She answered: "I agree to it and you will observe my departure in the presence (if you wish) of suitable witnesses." Therefore when the day for the departure arrived, which the old woman had previously determined, the priest showed up and with trustworthy townsmen to convince this fanatic of her madness. the woman, having placed a large bowl, which was used for kneading dough, on top of a stool, stepped into the bowl and sat herself down. Then, rubbing ointment on herself to the accompaniment of magic incantations she lay her head back and immediately fell asleep. With the labor of the devil she dreamed of Mistress Venus and other superstitions so vividly that, crying out with a shout and striking her hands about, she jarred the bowl in which she was sitting and, falling down from the stool seriously injured herself about the head. As she lay there awakened, the priest cried out to her that she had not moved: "For Heaven's sake, where are you? You were not with Diana and as will be attested by these present, you never left this bowl." Thus, by this act and by thoughtful exhortations he drew out this belief from her abominable soul.


A Sufi Murshid lived in the same village his entire, long life. The village had one intersection with only the masjid at the center, but not many buildings in either direction along the road. Because he was conscious the entire time his soul traveled during sleep, and because it travels at the speed of thought, he said, "I know the stars of the Milky Way better than the two roads in my village."

Castaneda's Don Juan speaks that our discounting the journeys of the soul as not happening in merely a different dimension of reality is not the proper perspective. That said, many/most/? of our dreams are occuring in our mind's imagination, not the external multi-dimensional universe.

Our soul is "magnetically" confined to our physical body while we remain conscious. Its journeys have been called "astral travel" and most people are not conscious during them because so very few of us live intensional, conscientious waking lives.


I, personally, have spawned and killed many daemons.

Linux made us all occultists.

The DnD -> Linux -> Occultist pipeline. The moral panic in the 1980s was actually right.

Just sort of mix them all together.

::fails the attack roll::

'Ok, sudo attack the beast with my mace.'


Back when Linux (et al) was a bit more novel in enterprise environments, I certainly heard MCSEs and such refer to Linux administration black magic.

I think developing and debugging complex systems, where most is a black box, does that in general

https://www.xkcd.com/2259/

Trying out the right magic invocation until something starts working again.


Yep, sometimes we are basically techpriests. Apply the sacred unguents and pray that the machine spirit calms down, cause that's all you can do.

It is going to be even more fun, once LLMs or alike are embedded in the pipelines by default ..

‘Have you had “the talk” with your llm daemons yet about peer-to-peer pressure?’

"Otherwise atheist" and believe "demons are totally real" is a very odd combination.

They believe in the supernatural, but only the evil supernatural? They believe in demons, presumably because of their experiences, but completely discount all religious experience?

That sounds to me as simply reflecting the effects of having done (a lot of?) LSD.




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