I’ve been doing a bit of (non e-bike) riding in poor weather of late, and it’s really surprising just how wet and dirty everything gets. After a wet road ride, every surface is covered in black, greasy dirt. It rots fabric, makes grinding paste in mechanical parts and generally makes everything worse. You need really good seals to keep that crap out.
I never see them in the US outside of city bike share programs, but I feel like most casual bike users would be better served by internal gear hubs and similar closed systems. The maintenance is minimal, outside of dropping some oil in every year.
But for some reason, every bike in a bike shop, including the most casual upright bike, has a finicky derailleur.
So instead we’re doomed to a life of misaligned derailleurs and bent derailleur hangers.
You're glossing over the fact that internal gear hub transmissions easily cost in the hundreds, whereas you can get a derailleur for a tenner or so. I've owned a number of bikes in my life and all of them have been cheaper than the transmission you suggest everyone should use.
There's a lot of range in internally-geared hubs though, from the crazy end with the $1500 Rohloff 14sp to the $80 Sturmey-Archer 3sp. I commute on a Shimano Alfine 11sp that's ~$200 which isn't exactly "a tenner" but if you add up the price of a derailleur, cassette, chainrings, etc. I don't think it's much different?
One of the really weird things with bikes is that entry level bikes tend to be 3x7 which means that you have a lot of extra weight and complexity (a second shifter, shift cable, and front gears) for pretty much no benefit over a 1x9 system.
The biggest reason we use 3x8 on all our bikes is because the spare parts are cheaper than all other ratios and we can switch around as we like between all bikes and can even keep some spare parts on the shelf for when the local stores are out. The first thing to go on my bike is the deraileur though, they keep a year or so even if taken care of. They can still be used a couple of years but the shifting isn't so exact as I would like it. The sport I do is very gear-shifting intense due to lots of stopping so I guess that eats away ant that poor thing. And I do buy the cheapest ones I can find for around 10-15 euro.
>The first thing to go on my bike is the deraileur though, they keep a year or so even if taken care of
>I do buy the cheapest ones I can find for around 10-15 euro
Customer benefit: Longevity. 3x7 chains and cassette last wayyy longer than 1x9 (and usually have a bigger ratio). 9s cassettes are not wider than 7s but instead each gears and spaces are narrower. The chain then need to be thinner resulting in faster elongation (=wearing).
Single speed and 3s chains last 5000km easily while 12/13s won’t last much more than 1000km.
A bottom bracket mounted Pinion C.12 transmission runs 12 gears (grip shift) and over 600% ratio from gear 1 to gear 12. I bought a reasonably priced Priority 600x mountain bike (now replaced by two newer models) with this system. No derailleur, no chain, no lube. Two cogs/sprockets, one at the pedals, one on the back wheel. A carbon fiber belt drive. Not an e-bike. Easy to maintain. The extra cost is worth it avoiding the hassle.
This is one area where I've found that paying for quality up front can be a cost saving and certainly a time saver.
We have lots of bikes and have gone through even more (bought & sold). The most reliable drivetrain on any of them just turned 20 (2004 model). It was the highest end Shimano XT-R at the time. It is easy to align, always stays in alignment, all in all takes very little attention and always shifts perfectly.
The bikes with cheaper drivetrains are a lot fuzzier and take more frequent attention and even when freshly aligned don't quite shift as nicely.
The absolute worst is the cheapest one (a department store bike my partner insisted on buying as an exercise bike). It simply can't be aligned well no matter how many hours spent. When I get it to a good-enough state, it's misaligned after a few weeks. The amount of time wasted on that thing would easily buy at least an Ultegra set to replace it.
I'm not really seeing the argument. I've never had a derailleur break, if anything, this sounds like some supreme yak shaving. Granted, I don't ride bikes for a living, but I ride a bike every day and durability isn't even remotely as big of an issue as you make it out to be.
I have broken derailleurs, and I’ve also had them bumped out of adjustment and damaged at bike racks.
Switching is probably a bit of an unecessary faff. But if you want a drivetrain that can be ignored or neglected and never complain, an internal gear is really great.
For a commuter bike it also allows you to fully cover the chain and chainring if you want.
Once the bike is dropped drive-side and the derailleur hanger is bent, all it takes is a normal ride to catch the derailleur in the spokes and you get a very expensive repair.
A derailleur makes it a lot easier to maintain correct chain tension. Fixing a rear flat by the side of the road is more of a hassle with an internal transmission hub (or a fixie).
I’d argue fixing a flat on a IGH or fixed gear/single speed is easier than a geared bike. Hardest thing about a single speed is needing the proper tool to remove the axle nuts, but after that take the chain off the cog and the wheel will slip right out, just as easy to put back in, just reverse the process. Getting chain tension can be tricky, but tighten the drive side bolt first at the point the chainline has about a centimeter of mesial play and once you tighten the other bolt the chain line should be spot on.
Where a geared bike with a derailleur will need you to put the bike in the smallest gear, and untangle the chain from the cassette. Replacing the wheel back in requires the chain to be properly laced around the cassette and can require dexterity.
Unfortunately derailleurs are necessary to ensure chain tension when the bicycle frame isn’t designed the allow for manual chain tensioning (vertical dropouts).
Also, run tubeless and flats will feel like a thing of the past.
Your description of the way of fixing a flat on a fixed gear sound much more work than the deraileur way. You disengage the handbrake if you have rim-brakes, open the quick-release for the wheel, bend the deraileur outwards a bit and just lift the wheel out. The gear is already at a low gear (does not have to be smallest) since you just got a flat.
Reinstall by moving the casette back inbetween the chain on the same cog and just drop it down and flip the quickrelease back to locked. Connect the brake again if you have rimbrakes. No need to fix chain tension.
I guess it all depends on what you are used to do. I had soooo many flats last year when the spikes started eating through my one year old schwalbe wintertires. 220 spikes makes 220 holes. Had to give up on fixing the holes and change innertube until I could get new tires. Not schwalbe this time.
Don't think tubeless would do any difference here though, see enough people get flats with those too and as someone else stated, the glue can get pretty messy.
Tubeless sucks. I've seen several cyclists on group rides running tubeless tires have flats that couldn't be fixed at all, or required installing a tube to get home. Maybe it works well enough for mountain bikes but for road bikes the tubeless tires seem too weak.
Unfortunately all IGHs are not created equal. Removing a back wheel with a Shimano Nexus with a coast break is a lot harder than removing a back wheel with a Rohloff.
It’s not difficult at all, just release the clickbox, unscrew two axle nuts, unscrew the brake arm. If you have any chain tensioners, slightly unscrew each the same amount.
That's kind of true, but it isn't the right comparison. The gear hub isn't just a replacement for the derailleur, but also all your gears, and has a simpler axle. The IGH is still a bit more expensive (~$200 vs $80 for a not completely bottom of the line derailleur based system), but it also requires a lot less maintenance to keep working well.
You can even use a completely enclosed chain guard. You see them quite often in the Netherlands and will keep your chain out of the rain and dust, this lowers maintenance cost and lifetime significantly.
The only problem is, is that this kind of guard typically is quite susceptible to damage if the bike falls or when you hit something.
Otherwise it is in many ways superior to a belt. Belts are inherently inefficient compared to chains.
My bike, with a Sturmey Archer three-speed, cost £160 (from a very reputable shop that services pretty much everything for free or only charges for parts). It is perfectly good for commuting and hobby rides up to at least 50 miles—and I say this as someone rather out of shape.
If in a dry climate, a derailleur transmission can last a long time and will be cheap to maintain. But once a person starts replacing quality components with like quality, especially in a wet climate, a derailleur transmission can be expensive over 10 years.
The set of my experience is { Shimano: [ $various_derailleurs, Nexus 3, Nexus 7, Alfine 11 ] , Rohloff: [14 speed], Other: [rear-hub e-bike] }
$various_derailleurs -- fussy to maintain, cheap to replace but costly over 10 years
Nexus 3 -- rubbish
Nexus 7 -- not bad for modest bicycling
Alfine 11 -- zero maintenance, excellent performance, cheaper over 10 years than $various_derailleurs
Rohloff -- low maintenance, expensive, built to last, and 14 speeds! But heavy and 10% efficiency loss.
e-bike -- reliable, fast and fun, but zero exercise and in the range of a Rohloff for cost
In short, I think an e-bike in 2024 is brilliant for single-mode commuting. The technology is reliable and performant... but heavy.
An Alfine 11 or Rohloff is bliss for multi-modal commuting (assuming 16" or 20" wheels).
From your comparison it may seem that Rohloff is worse than Alfine 11. But it is actually lighter and more efficient. Plus it has wider gear range and equal range jumps between each gear
> e-bike -- reliable, fast and fun, but zero exercise
I disagree on the last point, I can turn the motor up or down, or all the way off, based on how much of a workout I want to get.
Also the only reason I'm willing to bike around my hilly city (Seattle) is because I have an ebike.
To put it another way, across 3 or 4 blocks I have around a 100 meter incline on the way to a park.
Can experienced bicyclists who are in good shape pull that off? With a kid on the back of their bike? Sure. But an ebike lets me turn turn the motor on for that part, and turn it off when I'm not doing something as difficult.
Poor durability. In addition, the gear range is suitable only for short, low-effort rides. I used one for city commuting until it simply failed mechanically. In sum, the Nexus 3 is not in any way better for ownership than a working derailleur transmission. For a rental, there may be some value proposition.
The Nexus 7 proved reliable; the Alfine 11 a good value for durability and range of speeds; the Rohloff is brilliant but yes, those 14 speeds are expensive.
The choice depends on the rider's needs. I'd rather ride an IGH bicycle for the reliability and value over 10 years of riding. I'm not sure that an indifferent/infrequent bicycle user (the sort who lets things rust and never checks tire pressure) would care.
For the purpose of long commutes it's possible to buy an entire e-bike in 2024 for less than the price of a Rohloff hub alone.
The Alfine 11 and the Rohloff are brilliant. The Rohloff is a joy to use on all types of terrain. Instant shifts without fuss.
They are always sold with wrong sprockets. The high gear is never usable. Number 2 gear is connected directly, and so it should be the default on no-wind flat road. Then it lasts forever on flat country like holland.
I have 420 mm folding bike with Nexus-3. The correct ratio is less than 2:1, which meant changing both sprockets to smallest and largest available. I do not even know what to do with 622 mm wheels.
Mountain bikers run on "finicky" derailleurs over rocks and through wet mud and sand all day. They are unbelievably reliable. With the modern 1x10 or even 1x12 systems, you get enough range to remove the front shifter, reducing maintenance even more, remove almost all sources of jumping chain and allows fitting chain guard with better coverage.
SRAM has a famous video where they lay the bike sideways and jump on the derailleur while shifting, without it bending. Admittedly that model is out of price range for most riders.
Ideally you should give the chain a quick rinse and brush of to prevent grime from accumulating. Sure, the internal gears are a bit easier in that regard, because you don't need to get into the cassette. Otherwise from a reliability standpoint they should take equal beating. The cleaning frequency depends a lot on the oil you use also, wet lube will accumulate more grime than dry.
Still cleaning regularly is a lot of work (been there) and most people here never clean it, resulting in unreliable shifting and non-smooth cycling. Most people are better served by an internal hub and belt drive. Almost no maintenance (just bring it to a bike shop yearly to get it tuned up again).
Internal hubs are common in places where biking is common - ie. Amsterdam.
Derailleur's just seem to be far cheaper, I suspect because most of their parts can be made from stamped steel, whereas most parts of an internal gearbox must be CNC machined and face hardened.
Deraillers are a bit more efficient (almost no loss) and overall simpler to work on. They also (generally) offer a wider range of geear ratios.
Internal hubs work great, but have a bit more loss, tend to weigh more, and when they start going sideways tend to go really wrong. But for the commuter-y / daily use like what you mention they tend to last and be more weather resistant.
Because of all of this they haven't found a place in much hobby/fitness mountain or road biking, but are really great for less hilly utilitarian needs.
Derailleurs have, on average, 2% lower loss than hub gears, when new.
However, many suggest that because hub gears usually have an enclosed chain, whereas derailleurs rarely have an enclosed chain, that 2% is usually eclipsed by chain losses as the chain gets dirty/rusty/worn far faster on derailleurs.
Only the expensive ones have the range and you can buy a complete entry level bike for the price of a decent one. They are still heavy and have more than noticeable drag.
The maintenance is minimal but repair is much more expensive. Not even talking about the gearbox itself. Consider a damaged rear rim - you'd need to re-lace a new wheel on your expensive hub, which is a lot of labor even for a bike mechanic at $25/h. And repairing the gearbox itself is not something the aforementioned bike mechanic can do at all. Even diagnosing issues with it is an endeavor. On a derailleur system everything is in the open, problems are obvious and parts are cheap and easily replaceable.
Also, for the low end the price is prohibitive: there is a firm (Priority) selling relatively cheap, casual belt driven bikes in NYC, which, I figure is quite flat, but the gear ratios on the cheap ones are not good enough for someplace hilly. And for the high end the weight is insane. One does not need to be a "weight weenie" to feel a ~2Kg hub spinning with the wheel.
I've got a couple of 1960s Sturmey-Archer AW hubs (on modern rims) in the family fleet, and I like them a lot. They're virtually maintenance free. One was run completely dry and filled with powdery rust when I got it. After cleaning and lubrication, it's given me thousands of trouble-free miles.
I consider 3 speeds to be the sweet spot for capturing the advantages of an IGH without an exponential increase in cost. In technical terms, a 3x only needs a single planetary unit, and shifting is simplistic.
But it's going to be a tough sell in the US. Derailleur systems have actually improved a lot since I've been riding bikes (50+ years). Indexed shifting really works. Even low-end Shimano systems last a long time with minimal maintenance. There are maybe a dozen bikes among my family members, and derailleur problems are quite rare.
> But for some reason, every bike in a bike shop, including the most casual upright bike, has a finicky derailleur.
The cost difference alone is extreme enough to explain why you don’t see internal gear hub bikes everywhere. Even if you did have them on the showroom floor, those casual bike riders wouldn’t be buying them much due to the price.
You’re also underestimating the reliability of a modern derailleur system. As long as you’re not buying the absolute cheapest, no-name system, they’re actually quite reliable. The technology has come a long way.
Practically, all the "all weather" bike commuters I know do a yearly maintenance at best and that is it. It is not that finnicky, actually, unless you aim for maximum performance or do hardcore mountain biking (those do maintenance after each ride).
It is dirty after rain, but they still just leave it at that.
A dirty rear derailleur of course also reduces the drive train's efficiency by a lot - which can be solved by cleaning the chain every other month.
When moving towards belt drives, you need a very stiff frame which can be opened/split in the back to fit the belt. These frames are more expensive to produce which will furthermore increase the overall bike's price.
Ideally, we all train our legs to be able to handle a single speed setup ;-)
You know what bike lasts forever? Friction shift. I first noticed this in college. There would be new bikes and then really old bikes that had friction shifters. Hardly any maybe 10-20 year old bikes interestingly. All you really need to do for friction shift bikes are tires brakes and lube. You don’t really need to fuss with adjusting the derailer since theres no indexing you just move it with your lever until its in gear, wherever that may be. Plus you can get an entire friction shift bike in working order for like $50 sometimes.
I think the finicky part is the indexing system, the old friction shifters were way more reliable. On an indexing shifter any knock on the rear mech can bend the hanger and mess up the shifting and it can't be adjusted without straightening the hanger. A good indicator of a bent derailleur hanger is that adjusting works on one part of the cassette but than causes issues on the other end. On a friction shifter it doesn't matter, you can always make adjustments by hand. Internal hubs are heavy, drag like mud and usually require twist shifters.
An internal hub and a gates belt really reduces the amount of maintenance needed to keep your bike running well. The belt avoids most of the chain issues and doesn't need a properly lubed chain to function and moving the gears inside reduces the contamination that cogs get exposed to.
I've had complete opposite experiences, there is issues with the derailleurs constantly. Switching to internal gears and a belt instead of a chain has made commuting a much better experience and may in some cases actually cheaper in the long run when you factor in the saved maintenance time and costs.
As a biker, cyclist, skater, and ebiker, I’ve settled about various wax-like sprays to keep crap off and out. ACF-50 for the motorbike, various protective wax sprays for the bicycles, Vaseline for skate bearings.
The black greasy dirt is an emulsion of worn tyre particles, sandy powdered dirt and maybe a little spilt fuel. It's probably toxic - the pollution from tyre wear is underestimated.
In the tire industry we are well aware that carbon and pollution from grinding synthetic rubber into dust all day everyday is a HUGE problem, that is why we spend millions on promoting "green" rubber and natural products that we don't actually use but make a big deal about to distract people.
The biggest problem for tire companies is keeping the truth quiet about how we are on of the largest polluters.
There is also a lot of metal (random pieces along with nails and screws) and glass on roads. It seems roading contractors here are obligated to pour a box of screws onto the road before they move onto the next job.
Friends will sometimes give me crap for not riding in poor weather, but whether it's mountain bike, road, or gravel, riding in wet/muddy conditions just result in so much work.
The bike itself gets really dirty, it gets into EVERYTHING. Wear on brake pads and drivetrain are accelerated. Stuff doesn't work right. Post-ride it requires so much cleanup that it can take just as long as the ride did.
Sure, I'll get caught out sometimes, but I really don't like starting out in poor conditions because it's just so much work to get things back to right and can potentially cost quite a bit. I'll usually just skip riding these days.
Not to joke too hard but how long do you ride usually? To me a solid post ride cleanup takes 10mins tops. Thousands of miles on my dirty moutain bike and stuff still works right. Sure I replace parts that wear but seems insignificant.
Yes I am very confused by that statement as well. After rides on muddy trails I just hose my bike down, pat the metal parts dry and apply grease to relevant parts.
Any city bike worth its salt will have a chain case and long inverted U-shaped fenders that will redirect dirty spray away from you.
You won’t get off completely clean but maybe 99% clean?
Nope, I'm talking about riding fairly high end gravel bikes on Southeast Michigan (US) dirt roads on which the surface has been treated with a chloride spray which acts as a binder and water repellent for the road surface. The treatment keeps light rain from saturating the road surface, which keeps the road nice for longer.
If it's been wet enough for the surface to get soft and sloppy, once this flings up on a bike it dries hard. This material requires a solid soaking on the bike to get it to soften before it can be cleaned off, and it also is highly corrosive to metal due to the salt content. (Unless it's had time to soak in water runs off of it.) So it takes a fair bit of time and effort, and it's pretty much required that, you get it off of all metal parts including chain, cassette, rotors, bolts, etc. Depending on the ride I've also had to pull the fork because enough has flung up into the lower headset bearing that it'll be problematic if left alone.
By design it doesn't just rinse off, so time and a lot of water and a brush with soap (typically dish soap) and a rag is needed to get it clean and back to a sane state. And sometimes disassembly.
I'm mostly thinking of dirt roads which have been treated with a chloride spray. And I'm being a wee bit hyperbolic with the cleanup time, but an hour ride can result in an hour+ of cleanup if I need to get the (corrosive) chloride gunk out of all the bits around brake rotors, in the cassette, and all the little spaces around the crank arms.
We have a lot of very sandy soil around here as well, so if it's really wet the dirt absolutely tears up brake pads.
(That's a worst case.)
A particularly pointed example is the Iceman Cometh Challenge bike race. It's 2-3 hours for most people, but after the bad-conditions years it was common for folks to be replacing brake pads, jockey wheels, and aluminum chainrings. Plus the added suspension seal wear because for most of the event the seals were working hard clearing gunk from the stanchions.
EDIT: Or Barry-Roubaix, a gravel race in Southwest Michigan (US) that's on similar roads. Typically a 2 hour race for the most popular distance, but on some of the wet years it absolutely trashed bikes due to all the abrasive muck being thrown around.
It's not hard to find e-bikes with belt drives. Honestly, I think they'll take over the e-bikes market within 10 years or so (I think there are still some outstanding patents?). More expensive and slightly less efficient than a chain, but both of those are probably negligible for the context of e-bikes, and in exchange you never get grease on your pant leg, you never need to lube anything, you never need to worry about a derailleur needing to have its gears realigned or having the chain jump out (of course you could have an internally-geared chain bike).
Harley Davidson, among others, uses belts. Torque isn't the issue in the context of m/c final drive. Chains are a tad more efficient, which hp obsessed customers fuzz about.
I have a lectric and the build quality is terrible. Had to deal with:
- a bent frame out of the box
- a recall due to defective brakes
- lights not secured properly
- loose fender after less than 100km
- a derailleur that refuses to allow use of all gears- no matter how adjusted it is unable to use either the lowest or highest
Yep. I have a single speed e bike with a belt drive and internal motor in the back wheel. Use it for commuting round London. 0 maintenance. None of this over engineered Bosch shit. Cheap Chinese 250w motor in the back, belt drive, aluminium frame. These should take off, but so far the major bike manufacturers have overcomplicated the category - and the startup that made mine has gone under (analog motion)
The cycling industry and trends are based on processional racing and a chain/derailleur is going to maintain significantly more power transfer at that level than a belt drive or internally geared hub.
If Shimano/Sram cared about building top-shelf commuter drivetrains (Shimano has Alfine) they could easily purchase Gates or build a competing company.
No, and this would help.
While it’s commuting, I’m taking a route 3-4x longer than I need and picking off PRs. The fender helped a little, but was also finicky and I didn’t get a lot of value from it.
Your point is correct - some better gear would help.
Fenders needs to be big and cover all the way down to the ground back and front. Small fenders help with the worst, but good fenders are really worth it.
After a ride in foul weather I pour a kettle of boiling water on the drivetrain, brakes, and rims, let it dry off inside, then re-lubricate. Always works like a charm.
SKS (also known as ESGE or Blumels) "chromoplast" full fenders have always worked well for me. There are fancier (sometimes metal) fenders, but they tend to rattle, like you say.
For chain and coat guards: Hesling. Plastic or cloth, they're equally reliable.
For mudguards, basically anything aluminium from any Dutch maker. If you can get Azor, they're especially high-quality.
