Hi yes, I am still here. (1) We currently only have self reported symptom reduction (83% state symptom reduction within 6 weeks) that we've been using as a proxy so far, but we know we need more. (2) We are actually in the process of designing a more formal pilot with our Clinical Advisor Dr. Anil Chacko. We will launch this in the next 2 months, which we're very excited by. We're just tying up the loose ends in terms of setting up the logistical infrastructure for data collection, etc., and making sure the process is designed to not be overly burdensome for people with ADHD.
So you only have one claim (83% state symptom reduction within 6 weeks, whatever that means) at this point and that claim seems very weakly supported as it is not rigorous and no customer can verify. As a non-traditional medical startups I understand you guys want to get ahead fast and quick, but to me I am not sure if ADHD patients want to gamble a few hundred bucks to save money in the hopes that it MIGHT work for them.
Definitely, and we hear you. We're excited for our upcoming pilot with more rigorous study. Also, as mentioned in a different thread, we're definitely not a medical service nor replacement for medical service. If members are looking to "save money" from an alternative, the alternative this person would be comparing us to would be another ADHD coaching service (likely an individual or small group of coaches)—in this case, that service likely will not have pilot data at scale either.
Ok (1) is paper thin. Self-reported can be anything.
(2) makes me laugh because these things don’t take 2 fucking months. An initial protocol for a study, maybe. In reality such studies take years and years - I’ve done it with surgical skill development training program validation.
My advice would be to conform your thing to an existing body of knowledge and build your arguments on that - that’s what we did. Congrats on the language in your answers though. Why don’t you tell us a bit more about tying up those “loose ends” and “infrastructure for data collection etc.”
Agree that we want to bolster (1). Also we are not trying to prove we are medically improving symptoms, as that is not our service. We are helping members with ADHD reach future-oriented goals, and take ADHD-adapted approaches to coaching. So having them go through onerous testing etc., when we aren't a medical service, especially if it would suggest to others that we are, wouldn't make sense.
(2) I'm not saying that it takes 2 months. I'm saying we will begin enroling folks into the pilot in 2 months. We have been planning for a while now. Also, we are not trying to plan a randomized control trial nor prove medical outcomes, so our pilots are different.
Thank you for your advice! Would love to learn more about what you're building!
Re: "loose ends": we're currently conferring with adhd experts in academia and medicine to choose the right outcome metrics to study, make sure they have the right (recent) peer reviewed literature, incorporate them into our processes/tech such that the UI/UX is friendly for folks with ADHD, etc. The outcome metric(s) are the most challenging part right now because we want it to be aligned with existing body of knowledge (as you mentioned), yet reflect what we're working on (most aligned with Health & Wellness Coaching and Acceptance Commitment Training)—e.g. we're not looking for simply measuring symptoms, more so impairment and life quality. And for "data collection", we're also working with our clinical advisor on the minimum amount of data (and what variables) we'll need to ask from our members for the study. Happy to elaborate on any of the above and our process, where we're at, etc., offline! chris@shimmer.care
What do you mean by "these things" in the sentence "these things don't take 2 fucking months"? Getting their new pilot for effectiveness measurement from it's current state to launch? Where do you think it's at now, and why do you think two months isn't long enough to get to launch?
If a tobacco company tells you they've done internal research are you going to believe it? When anyone coming from a commercial background tries to do independent research with a reputable university or researchers it's going to take a lot more than 2 months to get them to do it. And if they're truly independent they're not going to be interested in just cooking the numbers to simply match your short-term product launch ambitions. The ultimate goal with such efforts is to pursue consensus - meaning multiple pieces of independent research with varying discussions and outcomes.
These are my experiences: With our product I found several experienced and reputable professors who assisted us. They did not take any money and they did not put their fingers on the scale. Their researchers were paid out of their budgets and we had to stay away from it as much as possible. The research took well over 2 years, and many of the results did not conclusively verify that our product really works. Instead they were broadly insightful on what could be modified our changed about it. Hence the "these things don't take 2 fucking months".
What I really mean is that I think they're full of shit. And they're laying it on pretty thick instead of being honest and humble about what they've got - which is an early stage monthly subscription coaching service/community. In response to questions they're laying it even thicker with even more happy-go-lucky obtuse language.
I find this repulsive because I have ADHD. This presentation can really take advantage of how the condition works. Feelings of community are something we have a tendency to be enamored by in the short-term. On the other hand I got my help in no small part thanks to participating in conversations in places like this one here, so there might be folks with this problem reading these comments. And this is very important - there are psychiatrists, experienced therapists and qualified IRL coaching that you should go to get proper help. It's worth the money. This help is not going to come from (young) people who say they have all the answers along with a business model just 3 months after they've gotten their own diagnosis.
I think we have radically different interpretations of "launching a pilot". I consider that to be the beginning of an experiment - not the announcement of completed results.
