Question for all the RVers here on HN: why do so many of you refuse to use designated pull outs? The ones specifically created for vehicles like yours to move over and let the dozen+ cars behind you pass so they can go more than 20 under the speed limit. Many RVs I encounter even go out of their way to prevent passing. I don't really understand it, and it seems like an RV-specific behavior.
As an RV-driver, I try my best to use the pull outs when I can. There are a few complications, though.
First is the visibility of these pull-outs is often very poor. You'll be driving through long winding roads and then all of the sudden the pull-out appears. In an RV, you can't just slam on the breaks and swerve into the pullout, ESPECIALLY if you're going downhill.
Second, often times (in the USA at least), these pull-outs have rough terrain going in an and out of them. There will be a little bump or uneven ground that most vehicles wouldn't mind hitting every now and then, but in my rig, that causes the whole thing to sway back and forth (Class-C built on a Mercedes Sprinter). I REALLY need to upgrade the suspension.
Third is time. Since I'm slower than everyone else, people tend to pile up behind me pretty quickly. Pulling into the pull-out, coming to a complete stop, waiting for everyone to pass, then getting back up to speed takes a long time. If I did this every time there was a car behind me, it would take forever. So, I tend to wait until there's more than a few cars behind me before pulling off.
Fourth is my wife. She says I have "overly-considerate disorder" and I need to make our safety #1 and stop caring about other people so damn much.
Just wanted to confirm those first three points. I keep a 25' converted bus in California for when we fly to the US for holidays. I really dislike holding people up, so will turn out whenever possible, but...
There isn't always advance signage, so you often see them at the last second and don't have time to check the quality of the approach, check if the person behind you has enough warning, etc.
They're always far poorer quality than the road itself, so you're aggressively decelerating a heavy vehicle in usually mountainous conditions, approaching a 4"+ drop into ragged pavement or gravel. I've hit some of those spots at speed and it's felt like the vehicle was going to fall apart.
And yes, often you're going slowly because you've just let a few cars past and reentered the road, just for another person to drive up behind you and start the whole game again.
It's very very rare to find signed turnouts that are good and long enough that it's trivial to pull off the road at a reasonable speed, let people through, and then continue on without just creating more problems.
I remember turnouts in NW Idaho or closer to Spokane maybe where the signage suggested you were meant to use the shoulders to let cars pass, but they were really narrow and I wasn't sure how exactly they were meant to be used? Anyone familiar with that area? If it's not wide enough to get fully out of the lane, wouldn't the passing car just overtake using the opposite lane anyway?
The act of slowing down and pulling to the shoulder is a clear indicator that another car can pass you without having to go super fast like a normal overtake.
It takes far less oncoming traffic distance to pass someone going 20 in the shoulder than 50 in the regular lane.
You could achieve the same effect going 20 in the lane if you could clearly signal you intended to stay slow so the other person could pass.
Are you referencing that Idaho scenario? This generally assumes the shoulder is long enough, that the car behind you can see it and realise that's what's happening, that there is visibility, etc. From memory, in that Idaho (?) case while the visibility was good and it was generally a straight road, the shoulder was full of debris and unmaintained bushes. Also the shoulder is often a puncture risk.
Here in Australia, the road trains will often signal when it's safe for you to overtake them - they're seated higher with better visibility, have far better lights for night driving, etc. But I always hear that their employers/industry discourage them from doing this, I assume out of fear of liability.
I've driven x0k miles in the US and tried signalling like this when I can tell someone desperately wants to overtake me ("go now, it's clear ahead"), but almost no one understands the intention.
IMO, most RV/truck/etc drivers dislike holding up traffic as much as the traffic dislikes being held up!
> says I have "overly-considerate disorder" and I need to make our safety #1 and stop caring about other people so damn much
I can't speak about your (w|l)ife, but in my (w|l)ife, people who say this are the people who personally enjoy taking advantage of my nature, and my "overly considerate behavior" is only pointed out when someone else seems to be getting benefit at the expense of my (w|l)ife; i.e it's a statement of selfishness.
Can't tell if you're joking or not, but this commenter (fsckboy) is using programming/regex-like syntax to write "wife/life" as "(w|l)ife", indicating that, although the parent commenter (JohnDotAwesome) is referring directly to their wife, the commenter (fsckboy) has found it to be true throughout their life AND coming directly from their wife.
In other words, both fsckboy's wife and misc. people in their life tend to only point out that fsckboy is being "overly considerate" when it appears that fsckboy is letting someone benefit from their considerate nature. The implication is that fsckboy considers the behavior as being kind and/or safe, while their wife/companions think of it as being taken advantage of.
The broad concept of this exchange concerns where the line is between being considerate and being taken advantage of, and how others might be incentivized to view that one way or the other.
It's more than that - fsckboy also believes that the people who point this out to them are doing so because they normally enjoy being the only ones taking advantage of fsckboy, and are incensed when others get to take advantage too (in their view).
And so a corollary is that fsckboy thinks their wife is (regularly?) taking advantage of fsckboy, which doesn't sound like they have a great relationship. But maybe this is not actually what fsckboy meant to say, and so we are back to not understanding what they mean.
It confusing because one part of the wife/life pair makes no grammatical or logical sense, as shown below.
>I can't speak about your (wife), but in my (wife), people who say this are the people who personally enjoy taking advantage of my nature, and my "overly considerate behavior" is only pointed out when someone else seems to be getting benefit at the expense of my (wife); i.e it's a statement of selfishness.
Yes, this explanation did the trick! I feel like I generally stay overly considerate in order to avoid confrontation, or because there is a chance it makes the other person feel good, which I guess makes me feel good. Things like letting anyone in front of me in traffic, etc...
Hey John!! Wes here, sitting in the shade of my RV right now. Funny to hear the last line, because mine says the same thing about when I am driving. And when she is driving she literally tell me "fuck em, I will drive how I want" lol.
Says the same thing to people in the US (and elsewhere??) that drive in the freeway's fast lane holding everyone up for MILES. That is one of the most annoying things I face regularly on the road.
I hate people who do this, nd it is probably why my wife has such a reaction, it is more about me pestering her too much than her actually wanting to ride in the fast lane. Backseat driving is a bad habit of mine.
But one thing I have learned by driving 50k miles these past few years is that you never actually get there meaningfully faster. So really, everyone is better off if they just slow down and hit that cruise control.
> But one thing I have learned by driving 50k miles these past few years is that you never actually get there meaningfully faster. So really, everyone is better off if they just slow down and hit that cruise control.
Depends what you're driving on. If it's a freeway where you're going to hit stretches of traffic anyway or roads where there's stop signs and lights, sure. When I'm on the 5 going from SF to SD, though, yeah, the clown who's doing 60 in the left lane for miles while holding me up is very much increasing the amount of time I have to spend on the road.
I don't know, as a non-American, Tomah Wisconsin sound exactly like the kind of place you could get a nice grilled cheese or a decent hamburger at a diner unchanged since the 1950s, with a bottomless cup of coffee and a nice slice of apple pie from a friendly middle aged waitress called Flo or similar who would no doubt call you hon. I'd look forward to stopping there.
If it is like most of small town america, they replaced the diner with a soulless strip mall back in the 90s. You can stop at the Burgerking or Dollar General now.
What's the deal with a truck going 54 in the right lane being overtaken by another truck going 55 in the left lane? Does he not see him? Slow down, let him in, and the rest of us can get on with our day.
I agree with being measured and predictable; I take advanced driving and safety class every couple of years as a refresher and safety is a massive priority for me. And I'm a big fan of cruise control. But going fast in the fast lane IS measured and predictable :-)
As well, 20%, or say a difference between going 10km over vs 10km under on a 5hr trip, is an hour and that's not nothing :-/
Be glad you don't live in Texas, where using your turn signal is tantamount to issuing a challenge, and is seen as aggressive behavior: "Oh, you want that right lane? No, it's MINE!"
Or worse, people don't see turn signals enough to know what they mean, and just adds to the confusion.
Measured and predictable: definitely. Having different speeds in different lanes also helps traffic flow better.
Also, people seem to really bunch up in some regions. Having a gap that is several car lengths in front of you actually helps traffic flow smoother (and thus faster.) I feel like aggressive/impatient drivers who cut people off create this culture where I live and then ultimately end up slowing everyone (including themselves) down.
People here are commenting how it's wrong for long drives, so I'll chip in with how it's wrong for a short drive too.
South bay to Sacramento in a Chevy bolt. I can drive 55mph and do the round trip on one full battery charge. Or I can drive 75mph and save so much time that it more than makes up for the necessary mid trip charge up in Davis on the return.
I wish everyone would sit the fuck down, and do the math on driving faster. 10 mph, even 20mph hour more isn't going to get you where you're going much faster. Maybe you get there 5 min sooner. Was that worth being a complete dick and a danger to everyone else? Fuck off.
10-20mph won’t make much of a difference for a commute, but when you’re driving on roads with loads of RVs, it means that you’re probably doing bigger distances, and with those, 10-20 mph will absolutely make a difference.
For example, when you’re driving more than 6 hours in a day, which is not uncommon for Americans, especially ones living west of Mississippi, extra 10 mph of average speed means you’re getting to your destination 1+ hour faster, which most definitely is a significant difference.
Averaging 10-20mph faster is very difficult on anything but the least congested roads. We often set the cruise control to 75-80mph but find that the average for a journey is closer to 58-60mph (not including stops).
It's a heck of a lot easier to make up half an hour by making quicker stops than it is to make it up on the road IMHO.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Most major roads west of the Mississippi and outside of Southern California are not congested at all. They only get congested around major cities, but a 6-hour trip means you have to be away from a major city for the majority of the trip.
Parent Poster: "For example, when you’re driving more than 6 hours in a day, which is not uncommon for Americans, especially ones living west of Mississippi, extra 10 mph of average speed means you’re getting to your destination 1+ hour faster, which most definitely is a significant difference."
You: "Averaging 10-20mph faster is very difficult on anything but the least congested roads."
Either you're blatantly ignoring what the parent said ("west of the Mississippi"), which does not exactly amount to polite discourse, or you're commenting authoritatively on a set of roads which you clearly know nothing about.
I didn't say anything about those roads. The parent poster gave that as an example. They didn't place a magic hex upon the thread preventing anyone who hasn't specifically driven on those roads from commenting.
I'd be surprised though if those roads didn't have roadworks, slower vehicles overtaking one another, accidents, bends, reduced speed sections etc. Certainly the roads I've driven in 10 or so other countries had these things in common.
Do you mean it's not uncommon for Americans to drive all day to go camping on memorial day weekend or something, or do you mean we're driving 3 hour each way commutes? Because very very few Americans have that kind of commute: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publicatio...
> Do you mean it's not uncommon for Americans to drive all day to go camping on memorial day weekend or something
This, for sure.
Those of us who live in the midwest are often hours of boring highway driving aware from anything, so a long weekend trip does require getting where we're going as quickly as reasonably possible.
Being stuck behind some nitwit who insists on pacing the semi truck next to them at 60 MPH rather than doing the 80+ everyone else on the highway wants to go is incredibly annoying.
80+ sounds too high. 80 is good. Stopping distance is not linear with speed, damage in a crash is not linear with speed (hello deer), gas usage is not linear with speed. No one who drives over 80 has grounds to complain about gas price, especially in large suvs or pickups.
Absolutely not. The legal limit should mean it is objectively unsafe to go faster in clear conditions no matter what you're driving. It is not supposed to be the speed you expect most traffic to go. If the average speed of traffic on a road is 85 MPH and people aren't constantly screwing that up, the limit (if there is one at all) should be meaningfully higher than that.
And of course if people are regularly screwing up at whatever the natural speed of the road may be, the correct answer is ALWAYS to change the road and reduce the speed people feel comfortable driving at. Lowering the limit below the natural speed doesn't actually reduce the speed of traffic unless there's active enforcement forcing people to comply. Redesigning the road makes people actually want to go the desired speed. A fast road is a fast road, no matter what number someone puts on a sign next to it.
> Stopping distance is not linear with speed, damage in a crash is not linear with speed (hello deer), gas usage is not linear with speed.
That's why I'm talking specifically about long, flat, straight stretches of road with effectively infinite visibility during the daytime. These are common in the American midwest, there are plenty of stretches where you can literally see the road disappear off over the horizon in a perfectly straight line. The same sorts of situations where the Germans go to unlimited, and it works just fine for them.
> No one who drives over 80 has grounds to complain about gas price, especially in large suvs or pickups.
No argument here. My car gets better MPG at 100 MPH than a lot of SUVs get at 65 MPH so I could not possibly care less, but you also won't ever hear me whining about gas prices.
Posting like this will get you banned on HN, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
Posting like this will get you banned on HN, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
Being able to pass allows me to create separation from other vehicles which means I can establish a good following distance. When selfish assholes block the passing lane, it creates a big moving traffic blockage that will turn into a multiple car pile up if anything goes wrong. The ideal highway traffic density is less dense, not more dense.
Safest speed is maintaining the same speed as the traffic around you.
Deliberately driving at a faster or slower speed than traffic for no good reason is the definition of unsafe driving. Please surrender your driver's license before you kill someone with that attitude.
What do you mean by "holding everyone up?" I'm constantly self conscious about this.
I refuse to drive more than 5mph above the speed limit after a particular incident a few years back. I drive quite a bit on a 3 lane 75mph highway. Consistently, I'll end up behind someone who doesn't know what speed they want to go in the middle lane, something between 65mph and 75mph. They're mostly 18 wheelers. I'll usually move over to the passing lane and go between 75mph and 80mph until I pass them.
Inevitably, there's some asshole that wants to go 90mph that appears out of the ether as soon as I start passing. They always want to be less than a second behind me, and never seem to understand that I want to keep at least 3s between me and the car in front. I always imagine they're saying the same thing you're saying in their heads.
The US version (varies by state) of the fast lane is garbage which is why nobody follows it. If you want a passing lane then you need a non passing lane and I don’t think US drivers are willing to make that concession.
Typically, you stay out of the left lane unless passing in the US. It's that easy. In many states, the person failing to yeild to faster traffic is ticketed, but not all.
It's easy in theory. In practice on many busy freeways such as I-5 through California the right lane is often clogged with heavy trucks for miles at a stretch, and the road surface is in terrible condition due to wear from those trucks. All the car drivers, even the slow ones, then hang out in the left lane so as not to get caught behind the trucks. I'm not defending this poor driving etiquette but the road conditions make it inevitable. The only real solution would be to add a third lane.
>All the car drivers, even the slow ones, then hang out in the left lane so as not to get caught behind the trucks.
Most of them go back to the right/slow lane when they're done passing any trucks and other slow traffic. Even on the I-5 it's not like the right/slow lane is an unbroken line of trucks from Mexico to Canada, you know.
But you can still pass in the right lane. So a slow driver in the left lane has someone riding their tail and are also getting passed in the right so they can’t even change to the slow lanes anymore. Add in left exits, moving over for vehicles on the shoulder, and speed limits that adjust based on road conditions and you have the perfect storm of it only being enforced in the worst cases.
> So a slow driver in the left lane has someone riding their tail and are also getting passed in the right so they can’t even change to the slow lanes anymore.
> If it's the fastlane, then there are other lanes.
In these scenarios it's usually two lanes in each direction, and the slow lane is filled with a line of semi trucks that have hard limiters set somewhere in the 65 MPH range and can not go faster no matter what, even if the highway limit is 70 or higher. Those truck drivers will do anything they can to maintain their max speed.
Some utter jackass then decides they don't want to be behind the trucks, but they also don't want to go faster than the trucks, and we end up with a line of annoyed traffic led by one dipshit.
> I suspect the person is doing the speed limit, maybe a bit over, in the fast lane -- and you're just and ASSHOLE.
Your position assumes the posted speed limit is set reasonably. Here's a hint: It's usually not on highways. I mean ffs there are eight lane divided highways with 55 MPH posted limits. You can't possibly defend that nonsense.
Most controlled-access highways the speed limits should start at 75 and as proven by the Germans beyond any doubt ∞ is a perfectly reasonable limit for rural stretches with good visibility and quality pavement.
Beyond all that, you are not the cops. It is not your job to enforce posted speed limits. If you are intentionally choosing to get in the way of a line of traffic when you have a reasonable option to not do that, YOU are the asshole.
I just can't even contemplate the level of selfishness it would take to be in the passing lane, looking at a line of annoyed drivers behind you and open road in front, thinking "man all those people are assholes for wanting to get past ME".
The last few times I've seen this happening (> 1 vehicles blocking anyone passing) behind me I've slowed down in the fast lane, let the "blocker" catch up to me, and then slowed down even more so the blocker has to also slow down, breaking the wall of cars and allowing people to switch into the passing lane to get by. I get a real kick out of it. Dunno how safe it is, but w/e.
Lol, my wife has an aunt that's famous for this. She'll go whatever speed she wants in whatever lane she wants on a major 4-6 lane hwy (401 in Toronto) and will righteously swerve her finger at people flashing their lights and honking behind her: "you can GO AROUND!".
(For record and clarification I do not condone that approach :)
Definitely agree with the first and second points above. I absolutely will if I can see it with enough time to safely slow the RV, and the terrain doesn't look like I might blow a tire or damage the RV doing it. I'm usually less concerned about time when traveling in the RV. I try to do what I can to build up good karma with other drivers, but it's not always a good idea to pull off.
On the other side. someone with road rage isn't going to care about others so much either (you) and possibly risk their own life, and yours, just out of frustration.
Being excessively considerate of others on the road is safer from my experience.
Are those terribly paved slow vehicle lanes a California thing? In New England they are the exact same quality as the other lane. I have never once had to navigate a drop to let faster traffic pass.
That sounds like a passing lane, we have those too. Those are usually nice although occasionally they are only long enough for 1-2 cars to safely pass. It doesn’t help that slow vehicles seem to often speed up for passing lanes.
But a pull out is just that. It’s a pull out. They are typically very short such that one has to pull in and fully stop. They are often found are on narrow roads in windy coastal, mountain or river canyons where putting in a passing lane is not feasible.
I don't know why anyone would expect a vehicle to pull off onto one of those just to let people pass.... So weird. I'd expect that to only be for someone who actually wants to stop and take a rest or something.
Oh I dunno maybe because it’s courteous and not selfish, or maybe it could be because posted signage often informs drivers that it’s Mandatory for slower vehicles to pull over if x number of cars are following.
I personally believe non-use of pullouts is more about the sorry state of the other drivers, not the RV drivers. (Assuming reasonable road conditions, which as you note, is not always the case.)
> coming to a complete stop
You're not meant to come to a stop. That absolutely kills what momentum you do have. It's exceptionally difficult to start a heavy vehicle from a stop. You're meant to pull out, maybe slow down a little, then pull back in, cars be damned. Some cars will pass, maybe not all. The new lead set of cars will get by at the next pullout, and so on in incremental fashion.
But what happens in practice is that the first or 2nd idiot behind you does not prepare in advance and then does not race like mad when you go into the pullout, thereby allowing as many following cars as possible to also make the pass. Even if that first car did execute it correctly, the 2nd car likely does not. Then the 2nd or maybe 3rd car is "in the breach" when the pullout lane ends, blocking your (RV) re-entry and forcing you to stop. Then you're doubly fooked. You have to start from a complete stop and you're at the very end of the pullout lane, with no speedup zone at all.
... this is why we can't have nice things ...
My daily commute involves a 2 lane highway (ie, 1 lane each direction) with a pullout for slow moving vehicles. Semi trucks and other heavy construction type vehicles use this road a lot, as it's the only viable route. They do almost always use the pullout, but they pull back in at the end without regard for anyone in the traffic lane. They have to -- they are even worse than any RV on getting started from a stop again. So I see this crap driving from the auto drivers almost every day. If I happen to be the first car waiting behind a truck, I race on past and then it's always the case that only 1 other car in a long line also make it past, when 6-7 should be making it. I also frequently witness the slow passing fool have to slam his brakes as the truck re-enters the lane.
I don't fault any RV for not using the pullout lanes.
> You're not meant to come to a stop. That absolutely kills what momentum you do have. It's exceptionally difficult to start a heavy vehicle from a stop. You're meant to pull out, maybe slow down a little, then pull back in, cars be damned.
The "cars be damned" part would be a collision, with the RV at fault. No thanks.
And the pullouts are not long enough to keep rolling, you have to come to a stop to have a chance to pick up speed again when there's a gap, otherwise you've just rolled to the end of the pullout and now you're sitting still with no room to accelerate before pulling into traffic.
I've not seen that kind of pullout. Well of course I have but they aren't designed for a slow moving vehicle to let traffic pass. They are just for safely stopping. Like fishing something out of your back seat, taking a quick break, sometimes there's a vista there, that kind of thing.
The turnouts designed for slow moving vehicles to let others pass, at least to my experience these are almost always signed far enough in advance (I'm sure there's a vehicle code mandating distance of signage) and they are at least ten or tens of car lengths long.
I think you are asking too much for any vehicle to pull out into one of those tinier kind of little turnouts for the sake of normal kind of driving/passing activity.
> The "cars be damned" part would be a collision, with the RV at fault. No thanks.
Agreed and this is why i would never use them were I driving an RV, and I don't blame others for not doing it. I'm just noting that I see the big trucks do this all the time. I'd estimate once a month I end up behind slow car panic stopping when he realizes the truck isn't having it.
I've driven just about everywhere west of the Dakotas. You're talking about the kind that's sort of like a new lane opening on the right, going parallel with the road for a good while, right? Those are incredibly rare, I think mostly in one region of California, like maybe the Yosemite area.
Ignoring those clearly-marked, friendly, and predictable pullouts, practically everything else is a total crapshoot you really don't know what it's going to be like until you've already driven past it. With a 38-foot 31,000 lbs class A, we made it the passenger's job to call out whether a pullout was safe or not, because the driver just didn't have enough time to notice it. Often we did manage to pull out of traffic for a moment and let 3-10 cars pass, but sometimes it just wasn't feasible.
Your own safety is concern #1 when driving. For a very simple reason: if you're not safe yourself, you cannot make it safer for others.
Others will have different ideas on what is safe. They may feel comfortable breaking traffic rules or pushing you(r vehicle) past your/its safety limits. Some have new cars and new tires and can go much faster than others in slippery conditions.
Spoiler: none of that is ever an excuse. Not with traffic police, not with accident investigators, not with emergency services. I don't know what condition your vehicle is in. I don't know how worn out your brakes are, how much grip your tires have. I don't know what happens in your car above that certain speed. I don't need to know; I need to be able to rely on you to operate your vehicle sufficiently safely. That is: such that it doesn't make the roads less safe for me.
> Many RVs I encounter even go out of their way to prevent passing.
Only you would know, but this could be something other than what it seems like.
When I had a motorcycle, I'd tail a slow vehicle for miles in anticipation of a passing zone. When we got there, they'd all of a sudden accelerate-- which I always assumed was them fucking with me, until one day I realized I do the same thing myself when in a car.
We speed up when we perceive it is safe to do so (long stretches of straight road), similar to unconsciously letting off the gas when you notice a cop running a speed trap.
If this is what you encounter, it may be an unconscious thing, or the RV driver consciously speeding up for your convenience. If they're swerving, consider that they're tall and wind pushes them around easily.
> When I had a motorcycle, I'd tail a slow vehicle for miles in anticipation of a passing zone. When we got there, they'd all of a sudden accelerate-- which I always assumed was them fucking with me, until one day I realized I do the same thing myself when in a car.
There's a mountain pass I travel a few times a year where this happens.
The limit is 45 mph throughout the curves, and that's a reasonable speed, though I prefer to go a bit faster, but will inevitably get stuck behind someone going 35.
We reach a point where there's a passing lane, and the limit is 55 mph. I try to pass the person that was going 35 mph before, and suddenly they seem to think that 70 mph is a reasonable speed. I have to pass these people regardless of how fast they want to go when there's a passing lane, because otherwise, I'll get stuck behind them once the passing lane ends and they decide to drop back down to 10 under the limit.
Luckily, these days, I have a car that can easily pass 98% of the other cars on the road, and the remaining 2% are already going at speed.
passing lanes usually open up on straight stretches of road with good visibility. Its like, here we are twisty, turning, and the speed limit is like 35 around these curves, and then we get to a 2 lane stretch straight up a hill with the 55 speed limit. What are we supposed to do?
be aware of the other people on the road and show some courtesy? before speeding up check and see if there are people behind you and let them pass before coming up to speed.
The sped limit is the speed limit. If it goes up, we go faster, if it goes down we go slower. It isn’t rocket science. The other person can still pass if they are willing to go over the speed limit, you aren’t in the left lane unless there is someone even slower than you in the right.
It’s in the name: speed “limit”. It’s not called “only allowed speed”. There are many reasons one should travel slower than it such as rain or to let vehicles pass.
for clarity, a safe driver would maintain a lower speed to allow the car line to pass.
Again, the speed limit, you aren't supposed to go faster than it, and if you want to go faster than that, its not really my problem.
> a safe driver would maintain a lower speed to allow the car line to pass.
They can totally pass, I'm just going the speed limit. Generally the passing lane is open for a couple of miles going up, they should have time to pass.
(this only applies to mountain highway driving anyways, where I'm at, the passing lanes are designed for trucks who can't go very fast up the hills, it isn't for idiots who want to go 85 around 35 MPH curves)
As a 25 foot Class C RV driver, I've encountered what you describe from heavy trucks, Class A's, other Class C's, Priuses, and Teslas. It's all over the place. I have to have a certain calm about it, especially on summer weekends on 101/SR2/SR20/etc in Washington.
The thing people don't realize is that speed limit advisory signs (on turns or downhills usually) are essentially mandatory for high CG vehicles - to avoid rollover risk.
To help you understand some reasons to refuse a pullout, here are the conditions that I think must be true for an RV or heavy truck to safely and practically use a pullout: (Maybe I'm missing something)
1) Vehicle is slower than the speed limit or lower than the safety speed advisory by more than 10 mph. (Yes, this is annoying for people that want to exceed the speed limit, but they can use passing lanes.)
2) Pullout must be visibly paved and clear for entry in advance of safe braking distance. (This is often a problem.)
3) The pullout must have good visibility behind it so the vehicle can safely get back up to speed from 0 after stopping. (Sometimes a problem.)
4) Traffic must be light enough such that rejoining the travel lane is feasible in less than a couple minutes. (This is often a problem.)
5) The pullout must have a safe path to return to the travel lane. (I have had to balk pullout attempts after nearing the pullout because this is not always immediately clear at a distance.)
6) Most importantly, the vehicle must not be followed either at an unsafe distance or by someone driving erratically. (I am not going to risk damage to my vehicle by braking for someone following too closely.)
Ah, Washington drivers! Paying no attention at all until someone nears their space, then all of a sudden VERY attentive and territorial yet unwilling to be actually aggressive, so instead just kind of interfering.
>>Ah, Washington drivers! Paying no attention at all until someone nears their space, then all of a sudden VERY attentive and territorial yet unwilling to be actually aggressive, so instead just kind of interfering.
>>Highway driving at its finest.
>>> Every single place you have lived has the worst drivers. Except for you.
>>> How does this make you feel?
It's the darndest thing: anyone who drives faster than me is a maniac and anyone who drives slower than me is a moron. Curiouser and curiouser.
I know this is an unusual strategy, but typically I want the people who drive faster than me to be as far in front of me as possible. That way when their terrible driving causes them to crash in a fiery explosion, I'm not anywhere near them.
And I want the people who drive slower than me to be as far behind me as possible. That way when their terrible driving causes them to crash in a fiery explosion, I'm not anywhere near them.
But I've never had much trouble getting the people who want to drive faster than me to go in front of me by just... letting them pass. Whereas the people who drive slower than me, now those are the assholes.
I'm in a different country, but I think drivers here are generally very reasonable. Very rare to see someone going well beyond the signed speed limit (unlike the US where it is shocking how much people speed). Always someone willing to let you in when you're trying to merge into a busy commuting route. I can't think of a bad driving experience (rude driver, etc) that I've had in my home state in at least 1-2 years.
I drove around southern France and parts of Germany and Portugal for a month last summer and didn’t see a single accident. I was impressed.
In DFW, when a gentle rain starts the calming sound of raindrops is followed by police and fire truck sirens as everyone loses their mind and starts crashing into each other on the roads for no reason.
I had to drive a windy, steep road near Santa Cruz last year (probably the 17 from San Jose down towards Scotts Valley) and local friends couldn't decide whether I should drive that road later that night (they said chance of drink drivers was fairly high) or in the morning after heavy rain (they said accidents were all but guaranteed). I went in the morning and there were indeed multiple accidents.
I can't think of a road or situation here in South Australia where anyone would need to be worried about either of those things to that heightened level. Yeah, take it easier when wet or foggy, or when tired, and drunk drivers exist, but not to the point of seriously warning people on a particular route.
Hwy 17 here is notorious for being windy, slippery when wet, difficult to see very far ahead, blind curves, poorly-marked entrances and exits, and: the only path between Silicon Valley (Los Gatos in the south) and Santa Cruz and points south. Over the years, I've seen better signage, more aggressive road clearing of debris after rain, and more police enforcement.
When I lived near Santa Cruz for a year and had to commute to Silicon Valley, I got very good at driving that stretch, knowing when I could do the curves fast, and when I needed to be cautious.
But if you're not a 'regular' on that road? Your advice was well-warranted.
In my experience most drivers are not very aware of their surroundings and just seem to do stupid things like form rolling roadblocks by accident. I wonder if RVs are just more noticeable because they are longer, and so their accidental traps tend to be bigger. The other vehicles that size are typically driven by professionals, who are at least a little more with-it. Usually.
My big pet peeve about RVs is when they're in the mountains on 2 lane roads and insist on driving with a foot of their RV over the centerline when going around blind curves.
I used to live in a small tourist town, and people died on a regular basis because of RVs doing that. You could spot the local drivers because they're the ones hugging the fog line when going around a bend.
I don't think people insist on it, it's just very technically challenging to drive any larger vehicle precisely. A Semi, a dump-truck, probably anything with air brakes, these have more stringent licenses and testing. You have to learn to drive them. You can go out today and buy a 3500 diesel truck that can tow 30,000 lbs, weighs close to 10,000 lbs on its own, a crew cab with a long bed coupled to a massive RV that is 45 feet long with triple axles, and the only thing you need to drive that is to have passed a driving test when you were 16 in your mom's Honda Civic.
Many RVs are 8.5 feet wide. Common highway lanes are 10 feet wide. There are curvy highways like route 1 that I swear are only 9' wide. I worry more about line selection and holding my rig inside the yellows than I worry about line selection when I'm racing my motorcycle. It's challenging for me and I drive things as a sport. I'm not covering for someone who went over the yellows, that's unforgivable, but I wanted to add some context for you.
Oh, I really do understand. When I lived in that town, I also had an RV and drove it on those same roads. It is challenging. What I (and most of the locals) would do, though, was to go very slowly around those bends. That takes a lot of the danger out of it.
In fact, there are advisory speed signs for those curves that are accurate -- if people followed them, there would rarely be an issue. Part of the problem, I think, is that if you're driving a car, those advisory speeds are far too slow (15-20 MPH on a 50 MPH road), but if you're driving an RV or big rig, those advisory speeds are critical. I think most non-pro drivers are used to driving cars and have trained themselves to ignore those signs.
I honestly think that people should have special training to be allowed to drive RVs, or at least the larger RVs. Something like a motorcycle tag.
> Common highway lanes are 10 feet wide.
These roads are also narrower than modern ones (they are some of the earliest "highways" built in the state). When I drove an RV on them, I tended to white-knuckle it. They're rather nervous-making.
I think that RV drivers are the least of the problems in mountainous areas. I find the big dualie drivers towing boats blasting by me at 10 over the speed limit on a rainy night the type of issue. They may know the roads (if they're local), but they don't know the weather and the wildlife. A tree could be down, or a deer in the road. But they sure love to ride my ass when I'm going a hair below the speed limit.
Most drivers think they're above average at minimum in their driving skill; most could use to take both a basic math course and a driver's safety class.
These lanes and pull outs aren't common everywhere. When I visited NZ, it took me a day or two to realize they had a purpose. RVers usually are not driving in their home country.
I just recently tried to use the side lane in DK to let others pass (set signal, decelerate, pull over as far as possible). It actually confused the other drivers so much that they didn't dare to take over, even when there was lots of space to do so.
Seconded, I was really confused until I watched a video shared. Never seen one of those in my life and I've done a lot of back road driving on the east coast. Typically we'll just have labeled passing zones.
It depends. If it is a passing lane and the RV is not passing, shame on them. If it is a small pullout you often cannot slow down fast enough to catch it unless you are really paying attention for it. Remember, slowing down a big rig (especially one with all your belongings in it) can be near impossible to do. But mainly the reason is probably that there is no training or licensing required to teach folks how to drive these things.
Often they are a short paved lane meant for slow vehicles to pull off onto to allow slower traffic to pass, but often on mountain roads, it's a gravel off-road area that serves the same purpose. But pulling into one can be a bumpy ride, and the gravel service means it's hard to accelerate quickly until you get fully back on the road so you need to be sure you have a lot of clear space behind you (which can be hard to ensure on twisty mountain roads).
My understanding is that these aren't like the overtaking lanes we have in Australia (where what was a 2 lane road becomes 3 lane with one additional lane for a period of time).
I think they are more like what we'd refer to as truck stops - an area off the road where you can pull over to stop.
I'd note this quote:
> Second, often times (in the USA at least), these pull-outs have rough terrain going in an and out of them. There will be a little bump or uneven ground that most vehicles wouldn't mind hitting every now and then, but in my rig, that causes the whole thing to sway back and forth ...
> Pulling into the pull-out, coming to a complete stop, waiting for everyone to pass..
No, it's neither of those things IMO. (I've driven a lot in Australia and in the US.) The latter you mentioned sounds like a truck-specific rest-stop - there are loads of those on the Stuart Highway, or heading over to Eyre Peninsula.
What they're talking about are turnout lanes which are a lane beside the road with no median/barrier and you're expected to slow down or maybe stop very briefly, purely to let faster traffic through. There are some up on the road past Pichi Richi Park to Quorn if you ever drive through the Southern Flinders, but they're not overly common in SA.
I've seen them formally in northern USA (Idaho going into Washington state, maybe) where they are risky and unclear, and I've seen informal ones on roads east of the Sierra Nevada which are like your quote - rough, unpredictable poorly laid asphalt or gravel.
Is there a distinction between turnout and pullout?
An RV is 20-30+ feet long. Thirty feet isn't enough time to slow and stop at speed. Let alone build up speed and reenter the main route. Even the one in your picture (much longer than 30') is an example of one that is risky for an RVer to use. People would use that to stop and take a photo or take their kid to the toilet, but proper ones are closer to an actual lane as in, same surface as the road, and longer. And no one would stop on them other than for 10 seconds to let traffic pass. Here's one on the southern side of Flinders Ranges Way here in South Australia (where I assume @NL still lives):
No, its literally a 100 feet or something, maybe 3 or 4 rv length, or 10 car length strip, in California its asphalted. You get off the road lane, you have to stop in it. Others pass you. Now you come back to road.
Same, never heard the term. Nor have I seen the lanes (I'm east coast).
Scotland has tons of these in rural areas, where the roads are literal single-track (only one lane wide). Used for on-coming traffic instead passing. It works fine, because the speeds are low and people are used it.
I was stuck behind a big RV recently who was driving part way over the center line most of the time. I eventually realized he was trying to avoid clipping all the low branches along the edge of the road.
I noticed the slow (right) lanes in California are the most beat-up. My guess is because the shipping trucks use them. This could be a possibility as well.
Perhaps this is the law, but unlike some other states, there is rarely signage to remind drivers (though I doubt even still it would the followed or enforced).
I've driven plenty of windy roads for years, and I've only been "stuck" behind a slow RV (with a line of traffic) once.
I've been behind plenty of RVs who don't drive as fast as I want to. But that's what happens on a public road. (These RVs still drive at a reasonable speed, just not as fast as I want to. IE 48mph in a 50 when I want to drive 55.)
The big problem is obvious drivers, who often are in passenger cars. I've been stuck behind far more oblivious drivers than RVs. These drivers do 20 in a 50, and ignore the long line of cars behind them.
Ha. I always do when I’m towing my trailer. People like that annoy me to no end. I first helped move an old Winnebago class A up to the small mountain town of Idyllwild above Palm Springs in California. The highway is steep and switchbacks up the mountain with great views of the desert below. I must have stopped 15 times on the way up to let others pass.
Gotta disagree here. Almost always when I get stuck behind something going 20 under, whether it's an RV or a Corolla, the driver of that vehicle blows past every available pullout and accelerates to 30+ over when a passing lane appears. Drivers are just raging assholes, no matter what they're driving.
I had the reverse experience last time I was driving in the US. Most RV owners seemed to be aware of people behind them and used the pull-outs fairly often. Drivers of Honda CR-Vs and similar vehicles, on the other hand, seemed oblivious to the idea that they might be holding other people up, and never got out of the way at all.
I'd imagine it's because it takes so much effort and gas to asymptote up to 40mph or whatever, that they can't fathom electing to stop and do it all again. Most tractor trailers have a large enough engine to handle going up hills with common cargo at highway speeds (exceptions exist, of course). From what I've observed, most RV's just don't.
I spent several months living out of my car+tent in national parks/forests and often referred to them as Ruins Views. Breathtaking scenery in those national parks, that you can't focus on when you're stuck in a line of twenty cars riding your brakes and smelling theirs, because Big Bob doesn't want to get his tippy palace going too fast.
I do get the appeal, but lugging around so much tonnage seems like a recipe for a bad time. Now I'm at a different life stage where I've been doing a bunch of towing with an underpowered SUV, and I make it a point to get out of peoples' ways. Luckily most of that has been on multilane highways where it's easy to do so.
If you’re driving you just can’t focus on scenery period, no matter how many cars you’re stuck behind. Whenever I ride as a passenger on roads I drive every day, I’m amazed at the details outside that I don’t see when I’m driving.
Just keeping a car on a road with no traffic takes a fair amount of focus: for evidence, just see how many people don’t do it and plow into objects that are alongside the road.
These kind of comments trying to invoke some tangential hobby horse ("safe driving") by taking a word out of context are soooo web forum.
Obviously, driving requires attention and is always one's main focus. Having driven various sizes of vehicles, it's quite clear that this amount of attention varies. For example, the sheer amount of work required to drive a 26 foot box truck gave me a healthy respect for truck drivers. On the original topic, I'd imagine a lot of RV drivers don't pull over or are actively hostile to being passed because they're so overwhelmed they don't want to pile on any more requirements. And while this means that they should be taking the opportunity to stop and recover, try telling someone who is drowning to stop thrashing.
Piloting a 2500 lb manual coupe barefoot in a non-wooded area on an empty road requires the lowest amount of work I've experienced. Driving that same car while having to continually gauge how hard the person in front of you is applying the brakes takes much more. Braking extra and creating more buffer room gives a slight reprieve, but at the ailing speeds ruined views tend to go on non-straight roads you'll inevitably catch right back up.
The person driving the RV that you're complaining about has just as much right to enjoy the national park as you do. My point is that if you want to enjoy the scenery, you need to get out of the driver's seat.
> The person driving the RV that you're complaining about has just as much right to enjoy the national park as you do
This makes no sense. If someone was blasting a trunk-shaking car stereo and I was complaining about that instead, would you say they had just as much right to "enjoy the national park" ? How about someone using a dirtbike on a trail? The way we keep these things enjoyable is by setting standards. And the examples that come to mind are roads where the prevailing speed was something like 35-40mph, but these big rigs were clogging them up at 15-20mph.
> My point is that if you want to enjoy the scenery, you need to get out of the driver's seat.
This is obviously false. Even the park maps point out scenic driving routes.
I really really wish turnouts were designed more like passing zones, with an actual lane.
Driving a huge RV I have trouble seeing and pulling off at my destination, let alone a fall-off-the-road-into-dirt pullout that comes up quickly around a turn.
I don’t think it’s RV specific - there are two types of people in this world people who drive in the passing lane and the people that hate them, some of them just own RVs…
One thing that has changed a lot since this article was written and everyone bought RVs during COVID: good luck just showing up and finding a camp spot. Pre-2020, we'd either just show up to a state park on a Friday night, or maybe reserve a spot a couple of days before. Not anymore; I booked all of the spots we might want, or at least could even find available, in March or so and even then we had to schedule around available spots, and not the weekends we necessarily wanted.
Now, maybe it's just WA state, but if we hit the road for an extended period I'd be reserving spots ahead of time even at places far less popular than, say, Yellowstone.
Yeah, it's super busy out there now. This is one reason for boondocking. I pretty much don't even look at campgrounds anymore, knowing they'll either be full, or I'll be packed in between two noisy groups when I'm trying to relax. I don't have an RV, and I imagine it's a lot harder to drive those up a forest service road in the Cascades, but there are still plenty of places you can go (looks like that's the author of the article's preferred method too).
This year in Colorado so far hiking trails and camp sites have been way less utilized especially not on the popular weekends. The last 2 years it was as you described booking months in advance but so far this year you can nab a same day spot at most parks during the week and there is much more overall availability. Hiking trails and parks I've done are probably 30-40% as busy as they were this time last year. It definitely is starting to feel like people are moving on and doing other things this year.
It’s not just WA. It’s everywhere. New campgrounds are popping up fast and people are becoming disenchanted with the failure-prone covid wagons, so I don’t think it’ll be this way for long.
Figured it wasn't just WA, my parents in FL don't camp as much as they used to, but they're saying the same thing on the occasions that they do go out.
I imagine it'll die off because as you point out, folks will find out that RVs always need something, and in a lot of ways are kind of a pain-in-the-ass. But, man, thought it would have happened by now.
I'm knocking on wood real hard with this one, but I'm going on about 20k miles in my 2013 Airstream with no incidents (bought in 2020). Only major thing I did since getting it was change the original tires and get the wheel bearings repacked. Cross country road trips was what led us to go with an Airstream and so far I haven't regret it a bit.
Likewise. Camping used to be spontaneous up until Covid. We might book a popular site a few weeks in advance but only for popular ones on holiday weekends.
Now they can be booked months in advance when you've no sense of how available you'll be or what the weather will be like.
For Michigan's booking system, people also game it by booking long stays that finish on the dates want (thus getting around the "within 6 months" booking window) and then cancelling down to the dates they want for a paltry cancellation fee, given how in demand they are.
Do you worry that there is more or less an arms race with competitors like arvie.com, and the entire industry is basically just adding service fees on top the costs of booking a site?
Not sure there is a fair approach beyond a lottery. Parks could embrace demand, and auction the sites off, but that is trading one bias for another.
I don’t think it’s much of an arms race. There are practical limitations to scan frequency that’ll keep most groups operating within the same general constraints.
Added costs/fees are somewhat inevitable. I spent $25 for two small bundles of firewood on my last camping trip. Everyone’s got to make a buck somehow.
I see Campnab as a convenience. Anyone can refresh the booking system manually, but doing so is time consuming. Some folks are happy to pay for that convenience.
Campsite availability is largely a supply and demand problem concentrated around busy centers and amplified during certain times. Drive a little further and go on the weekdays and it isn’t as much of an issue.
Perhaps lotteries would help. Some permits have been switched to this approach. I’m not sure how practical they are to implement across the board, though.
Personally, I don’t think any solution will actually solve this problem. That said, a lot of campsites do sit unused when folks fail to cancel. Reminders a week in advance of a trip could help with this. Some areas also have policies that discourage no-shows.
Using wanderinglabs has helped me get reservations at campsites when it seemed almost impossible to find availablity. Taking my kids to John Pennekamp Coral Reef State Park when school gets out. Keep up the good work - great service.
It seems as if about the only things WA State Parks has invested in for the past 40 years are parking lots and a new headquarters building in Tumwater.
This is largely a west coast problem. We are doing a trip to the west coast this summer (sitting in the shade of my RV in AZ right now on our way) and we had to book a lot more in advance than other destinations. The past few years in the central and east we can usually find a spot day of unless it is right near a major attraction.
I am sitting at a campgrounds in Sweden right now. There are a few dozen cabins, of which maybe a handful are being rented. Six, maybe, at the most. Meanwhile, the camping area is absolutely packed with RVs and camper vans. So, maybe not just Washington?
I don't think most people care enough to bother you, but there's very little "stealth" about a Sprinter/ProMaster van. They used to go unnoticed but they don't anymore. It's a dead giveaway when there is a MaxxAir roof vent and solar panel(s).
Something that the massive volume of "urban campers" in the Bay Area has taught me is that if you're not being hassled by the cops/locals for sleeping in your vehicle, its not that you've somehow gone without notice, its that nobody cares enough to do anything about it. Folks who put a lot of effort into "stealth" are optimizing for a problem that's comparatively easy to solve (just park somewhere else) if you somehow manage to avoid the worst possible consequence (a parking ticket), while also making themselves more attractive to thieves (who are looking for work vans that have tools they can fence).
I draw the line at not having a private shower and toilet. Yeah, a lot of van dwellers utilize gyms for this, but I don't want to tie my basic hygiene to external sources.
I don't read parent as saying not to have a shower and toilet, I think they are just saying make the vehicle appear more utilitarian so as to not draw attention.
Port-a-potties and portable showers are a thing. They are cheap, lightweight and don't take much space. Not as good as gym showers but sufficient if you want the option not to rely on them.
Washington might have more populated parks simply because they have a state-wide pass for getting access to a wide variety of camping spots for cheap. Other states I've been to still have some kind of registration and check-in process where you need to pay cash on the spot for each place you go to
I usually just pull off at a truck stop for sleep if I'm traveling, but even those have been getting filled up lately. Plenty of exits will just have semis lined up on the shoulder because there's no room anywhere else and they can only drive so many hours by law.
I think this is one of the reasons motorcycle camping is seeing such a huge increase. Those that liked to camp moved to overlanding. Then that filled up. So now they are moving to adventure bike camping.
For me, it looks like a La Quinta while the sun is up, and then just before sunset, I head back out to make sure the alignment on my telescope is set. It also looks like a couple of cans worth of mosquito repellent. It looks like plenty of water. The last time I went when it was that hot during the day, it was still above 90° at 2am.
This is one of those adventures where brave blurs into crazy
You are sheltered, that doesn’t count. People frequently get hypothermia on the beaches in NorCal because it’s windy with 60F humid air and that’s with clothes.
> You know many Canadians wear shorts at 50F, right?
Shorts are clothing FFS! “Slightly more of my leg is exposed while I’m awake” is not the same as being able to sleep naked without shelter.
Humans came from warm clients in Africa. Living in the north depends on critical technological advancements that quickly puts it outside of “”nature (fire, clothing, construction).
> You must be from a place that gets hot.
Not at all, I grew up in miserably cold environments (high mountains in Wyoming). When you grow up with it you become blind to all of the basic technologies your life completely depends on.
The best RVing advice I was given was to not buy an RV and buy a pull trailer instead which somewhat correlates to the TFA's "bigger is not always better". RVs get horrible gas mileage, and are not easy to drive around. This is why you see a lot of RVs pulling trailers with a smaller car on it. The trailer route allows you to drop off the trailer and then use the pulling vehicle separately. I'm sure it's confirmation bias, but people I know that have RVs use them less than the people I know that have trailers.
I’ve got a 35’ travel trailer I live in usually for 4-6 months at a time for this reason. The benefits:
1. Just one engine to take care of. If you have a motor home, you’re towing a car too. So that’s two sets of drivetrains with all of the maintenance and expense that goes with it.
2. Easy to replace the drive part. If my truck dies I can just get another truck. The trailer lives on. Whole lot easier than dealing with what happens when an RV dies.
3. More maneuverable (though also harder to learn to tow if you’re not already used to it) because it pivots at the point where it connects to the vehicle.
4. Much cheaper in the long run. A diesel 3/4 or full ton truck barely depreciates at all in absolute dollars even in normal times. RVs can’t say that at all. If you buy a camper and a pickup you can probably sell them in five years for most of what you put into them.
>3. More maneuverable (though also harder to learn to tow if you’re not already used to it) because it pivots at the point where it connects to the vehicle.
5th wheel trailers help with this (so I've been told by family members that have them).
Can confirm. I've been fifth wheeling for >20 years. They're much easier to tow and you don't need as much length behind the tow vehicle for an equivalent amount of space (because the bedroom is usually above the hitch point). They're also much easier to hook up in the first place because you don't have to repeatedly back up the truck "blind" to get the tow vehicle into the perfect spot.
Fifth wheels can seem scary to people who are not familiar with them, but the benefits are numerous if you can overcome that fear.
I can also confirm. A fifth-wheel trailer with the proper size truck is very stable; even in severe cross-winds.
I use a gooseneck adapter on my RV since my farm trailer uses that and it's a bit more difficult to hitch up but you get used to it quickly.
Before COVID used fifth-wheels were very cheap -- my current one is a 2016 model I bought used for $17k in 2019. Things are a bit more expensive now but I figure the used market will probably go back to normal by next year.
They don't affect maneuverability all that much when compared to a standard travel trailer. However, you get a lot more living space in the same effective length due to the portion between your pin and rear truck bumper being now livable space.
They do however TOW quite a bit better than a travel trailer as far as comfort. Going from a 28ft TT to a 40ft Toy Hauler yielded a lot better towing/reduction in driver fatigue over long trips (also went from a half-ton truck to 1-ton, so some differences just there as well).
Wasn't familiar with this concept. Funny though: in my language, "5th wheel (on a car)" refers to someone being as useful as... well, the 5th wheel on a car, i.e., not useful at all. The "on a car" part is often left out.
(Sidenote for anyone wanting to argue the usefulness of 5th wheels: I'm not my language designated responsible for sayings and common phrasings. Also: 5th wheels tend to be the emergency spare wheels - which obviously do have a use.)
I’ll give you the reasons I bought a small RV over a trailer. There are always trade offs!
1. You can boondock much more discretely. I can move quietly from the driver seat into the sleeping area without letting the neighborhood know anyone is there at all. Also safer in that if someone is bothering me, I can also just drive away.
2. Much faster to setup. I usually just hop out of my rv, connect the power cord and back in. Press a button for leveling out. When you have a trailer and you need to go somewhere, it probably involves disconnecting the hitch which is a ton of work. It’s possible to leave it connected but the length of both the trailer and car is usually too long for a campsite
3. Slightly related to that last one but length. My RV is 24 feet, I can just pull straight into most driveways, press a button and I’m setup. Not a fan of backing trailers into steep or across uneven driveways.
4. Incredibly easy to drive. As other people are discussing letting folks overtake you, it just wasn’t as necessary because you can drive a short rv like a car. Miss a gas station? Just hit that uturn at the signal and go back. Good luck with a trailer or even more fun in a 5th wheel
5. Cross wind. I haven’t driven much with a trailer but in the desert, the cross winds were sorta scary while driving an RV. I have to imagine this is worse with a trailer.
6. Having that back living space easy to reach. Thirsty on that 6 hour drive? Just send a passenger back to the fridge to grab a cold drink or food from the pantry
7. Storage. This can go two ways but I only have a driveway for two cars. My RV fits in one spot. If I had a trailer, I would have to park the truck separately which wouldn’t leave room for another car off the street
8. Battery recharging. When the RV is running, the deep cycle batteries charge. I can let the car idle instead of running the connected generator. There is also a button you can hold down and it uses the deep cycle batteries start the car engine in case the car battery dies. The whole system is integrated so you theoretically can’t have a dead battery on both the engine portion or the rear living space portion
9. Ac, I have had issues with my rear AC, I can start the car and run the AC from the front vents to keep the back area livable
That's assuming that you actually want or need a truck (or other tow vehicle large enough to pull your trailer). I went with a motorhome (but don't pull a car) because my other care is a small EV, and I don't really have a use for a truck or other large vehicle.
A truck and trailer is nearly always less expensive re: total cost of ownership than a similar motorized setup. It would have cost about the same to buy a truck and trailer than a motor home, and they depreciate far less, and maintenance costs for less.
Your other car doesn't have anything to do with the cost savings. The cost savings exist before even assuming you get some other use or value out of the truck other than a tow vehicle
When you look at the total cost of ownership, cost of maintenance, depreciation, and the relative comfort of driving a new nice diesel truck vs a box van it's a no Brainer. When we're too old amd weak to disconnect the trailer from the truck we'll get a motorized rv, until then we'll stick with our truck and trailer.
> 1. Just one engine to take care of. If you have a motor home, you’re towing a car too. So that’s two sets of drivetrains with all of the maintenance and expense that goes with it.
Now you're doing your grocery shopping, sightseeing, and trailhead parking with a dualie pickup truck.
Maybe that's me being too european but why towing a car? Here in europe most RV users either carry a 50 to 125cc moped or a set of electric bicycles to wander around. Seems like using a car is just a bit excessive for really small trips.
RVs get horrible gas mileage, and are not easy to drive around.
Guess what else gets horrible mileage when you hook a trailer to it? I'll put our 26' Sprinter class C's 15mpg up against anything pulling something larger than a pod trailer. And after I did some much-needed suspension upgrades, the thing drives like a car. Best of all, I don't have to pull a trailer. We use ours a fair amount because all we do is toss food in the fridge, turn the key and go.
A lot of the reason I see for pulling a car (often referred to as a "toad". "towed", get it?), is so one doesn't have to roll everything up just to go see the sights.
That's a huge difference - an RV that does not expand or really hook up is much easier to just jump into and go somewhere than one that folds out until it's larger than a Manhattan apartment.
And both can be supplemented by auxiliary transportation (bikes, motorbikes, small car).
>A lot of the reason I see for pulling a car (often referred to as a "toad". "towed", get it?), is so one doesn't have to roll everything up just to go see the sights.
Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. And your point stands; I'm probably one of dozens who has gone to the trouble of fixing the wobbling mess that is most stock RV suspension.
(And if you have a Sprinter-based Class C: Sumo Springs front and rear, Fox rear shocks with more rebound damping, and if I had to do it over I'd skip the larger sway bar.)
The thing that has worked for me is going the trailer route with my lightning. You can get 60-70% charge overnight (since I power the trailer with the lightning) with one of the KOA RV outlets included with the camping spot price. KOAs are a bit pricier than a mom and pop but totally worth it for the extra $7-10 you might pay per night because they’re cleaner, have great restroom facilities and I can drive a whole day on the charge.
You can do around 100 miles a day on 70% and that’s more than enough for me the way I’m traveling. I have the extended capacity model. It also really depends on the route, with a lot of downhills you can probably get closer to 180 miles on 70%. On a cool night when you can just leave a window open on the trailer (so you don’t need to power it), you can get a full charge and that will get you around 200 miles a day while towing on something that has a decent amount of downhill.
I don't have a lightning but have been thinking about getting one. Thanks for the report.
One thing I thought about is that if I want to go someplace farther than 100 miles, I could just drop the trailer in a parking lot, recharge the truck at a nearby DCFC, then re-hook and be on my way. I've done this on occasion to refuel an ICE tow vehicle at a too-small gas station, and I don't see why it wouldn't work with a lightning.
So is your itinerary to go from KOA to KOA in 100 mile increments? Are there ever times when there isn't a KOA ~100 miles in the direction you want to go?
I live full-time in a 25 foot class C; it's just fine for errands (can park in any grocery store parking lot for example).
There are some times where it's annoying to break camp to go to some activity but it's much less annoying than towing a car full time, not being able to back up, etc.
When I took the plunge I bought a van (Ford Transit with the high roof) and converted it to an RV myself. The van is light(ish) and powerful enough. We fly up mountains and can park in a normal parking lot space.
Depends on the trailer (type and size), but pop ups are required to be popped up before being usable. Sure, some RVs are transformers, but those are usually push button. A lot of RVs are also "self-leveling" now, where trailers tend to me more manual (granted, lots of years since I've been around them so maybe they are self-leveling as well now). So really, the more expensive it is, the easier it is with the reverse being true as well.
For any RV: hook up to shore (and then disconnect) takes time.
For travel trailer it’s harder to park (if you need to back in into tight spot) and level, and then you need to disconnect the vehicle (if you need it to drive around). And then you need to reconnect before leaving. It becomes way easier and faster with experience.
Hmm, having difficulties finding you a driver at the Grand Canyon.
I've never had success with a ride service outside of a city, and outside of cities is where RV sites that people are interested in tend to be located.
It's crazy how different people's experiences can be, while seemingly performing the same activity.
We fulltimed in western US, and I made it a point to minimize RV parks & paid camping, to see get more out into nature. I honestly don't even know what it would be like to just go from RV park to RV park.
Me too. We have a 2019 diesel and we tow a 30ft toy hauler. They really designed those trucks well, it has so many great towing centric features that I appreciate more and more. The time with my wife and dogs seeing the country has been priceless. I too love driving my f250
Don't get a Tacoma for this - a Kimbo weighs upwards of 1k lbs, right at the limit of a Tacoma's payload capacity. Add in fuel, people, water, anything else heavy and you're above the rated capacity before you know it.
Also, you are uninsured if you exceed your vehicle's towing or gross weight rating. It's in the fine print of your insurance binder, something about using the vehicle IAW manufacturer's recommendations.
EDIT: And yes, the insurance company will weigh your equipment after an accident.
This was my disappointment with my Tacoma. For the size of the truck itself, the towing is very limited. I know they would rather you buy a Tundra, but a Tacoma's towing isn't much better than my '85 Chevy S-10. That's just really sad when you compare the sizes of a Tacoma and an S-10
!! Careful to not conflate - payload is not the same as towing capacity. The 2023 Colorado has a payload capacity of 1,310 to 1,610 lbs.
To get much beyond the 1 to 1.5k lbs PAYLOAD capacity, you need to move into a full size truck, ideally an F-250 or equivalent. People putting campers in the back of Tacomas and the like are playing with fire.
Tacomas have small beds compared to other trucks. It’s all trade offs though. Slide in campers can b nice but are more difficult to decouple from the vehicle than a bumper pull. Bumper pulls or even fifth wheel campers have the benefit of being much larger when people need more space.
Yeah, Tacomas are weird hybrid trucks. It's a full sized truck in every way except the bed. The loss of the smaller truck like the S-10 makes me sad. I miss my S-10.
I’ve seen diesel f150s in the states, they have a small power stroke which is cool. Also talked to a guy who imported one from Canada.
I wish the American market was more conducive to Japanese diesel vehicles.
Deboss garage is a Canadian mechanic on YouTube and he mentions he went to South Africa to do some work and was expecting there’d be many Hilux but ended up just working on fords (and was disappoint)
Here's what my list would be: (full time for 7 years, now building a house so I don't need full time RVing ever again).
1. RV parks are full, they converted almost all the nightly sites to monthlys to guarantee revenue. RV Parks are the new mobile home park but with monthly RVers who got wind of the "Gone with the Wynns" blog and cheaper cost of living.
2. RV Park nightly rates have literally gone from $35 a night to $70 a night during the 2020s -> 2023s. A lot of the time you're the one that showed up paying $70 per day and all the loud blubs next door are paying $10 per night at the monthly rate.
3. Free camping areas are getting shut down after sites like "campendium" have advertised them to everyone. Most of the problems are related to illegal gray and black tank dumping on public lands.
4. Quartzsite is an absolute shit-show now, it's still probably worth going, but it's crowded. I wouldn't be surprised if they shut down the free areas in the next few years over the same gray/black tank issues.
5. Internet problems are 1000% solved with Starlink now.
6. Solar does not power the A/C. To power the A/C you need 10+ residential solar panels and a $2000 inverter on a 48 volt system. There are ways to have a 48 volt battery and down-regulate to 12v for the rest of your RV. People that run A/C off solar have "special ways" to have that many residential panels, typically involving fold outs and trailers.
7. Gas prices have skyrocketed in CA so it's not worth going anywhere near the state - let alone find a park that's cheap.
RV Progression
Cedar Creek 5th Wheel (2 years) -> Arctic Fox TC 1150 (5 years) -> Alliance Paradigm (1 year) -> building house
> 6. Solar does not power the A/C. To power the A/C you need 10+ residential solar panels and a $2000 inverter on a 48 volt system. There are ways to have a 48 volt battery and down-regulate to 12v for the rest of your RV. People that run A/C off solar have "special ways" to have that many residential panels, typically involving fold outs and trailers.
I have not found this to be true. I run a Cruise N Comfort 12v AC and it works great (most it uses is about 60amps at 12v which I run off my solar panels). See my post here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36408382
As the other commenter said, there are very low wattage AC units that work fine for very small spaces. I saw a guy on YT convert a tiny window unit into a mini split and that thing only used 800 watts I think. Which is only one or two solar panels you can fit on a van roof easily. He had to drain the refrigerant and resolder the copper tubing to place the radiator directly below the van, but it honestly didn’t look that difficult. Most challenging part is having someone drain the refrigerant who’s certified to do so
Living in a van is either a necessity if you're very poor, or it's a luxury if you're rich.
If you really understand what living in a RV or a van really involves, you quickly realize several things:
* If you plan a long journey, it's still a lot of time spent on the road, and gas money. So it's not about just living in the wild, it's just driving and sleeping, which is not that great, and it's not what people mean when they mean to live in a van. It's a home that can move, but it's not meant to travel.
* It's better to keep a real home, use a station wagon to sleep in it or carry stuff, a bicycle, a tent etc, and not go too far from your home and still enjoy the wilderness, and do this for several months and still enjoy being in the wild without using a RV or van. A station wagon is not the full luxury, but it's still pretty nice.
The trend is on vans which are smaller RVs, but I really thing using a station wagon is largely enough.
I cannot stress enough how absurdly expensive it is to keep an RV moving on the road. They are built in by far the least weight efficient manner imaginable and consume gas or diesel as if prices hadn’t changed since 1986. It is wild how little manufacturers have spent on R&D to come up with more weight efficient solutions.
Aren’t all van based RVs considered Class B? I thought that was the definition. And wouldn’t they be lighter and get better fuel economy versus the Class C’s that are based on a van chassis?
The definition is that class C is constructed on a cutaway chassis, constructing new "RV walls" at the RV factory, and class B uses the original "vehicle walls".
A class B will get generally better fuel economy than a class C, because it's more aerodynamic, narrower and not as tall. Of course, a class B will have less interior room.
tiny houses are not typically expected to move around often. the wheels are generally a formality to get round certain zoning rules. that you can move them is a side benefit.
My neighbors recently bought a $200k+ _tiny_ Mercedes RV and they mainly drive it for day trips. Basically it’s a really, really expensive porta-potty you drive anywhere you think you may need to use the bathroom.
It’s absurd but no less absurd than a similarly priced boat that might get 20-30 hours if use a season. Plenty of other neighbors have those.
I'm pretty sure I was considering the same one lol. Used, but still. Tiny is a feature (for me at least) because I wanted it to fit where most cars would fit and not have to take into consideration what sorts of bridges and roads I would be able to fit into. My goal is eventually to do 1-2 months per year on the road in total, with the possibility to work from the road some of the time. Still looking around, but I really liked that one haha.
My long journey experience (perhaps not fully typical) was at odds with both of your "realizations".
* I spent most of a year on the road, circled the U.S., about 18k miles in all (and averaging almost 17mpg). Sure, it's a lot of miles, but some people do that commuting. The experience was in no way "just driving and sleeping" in fact the driving part was not particularly unpleasant (amazing views, music, books on tape, conversation, photo stops) but was a very minor part of the overall experience.
* With a compact (25') class C, I had a comfortable queen sized bed, 2 TVs couch, heat, A/C, 2 sinks, stove, microwave, fridge, flush toilet, closet, large dinette (seats 6), and a great hot shower every morning. A slide out made it very roomy when parked. A huge awning made for comfortable outdoor living on sunny days. I've done the station wagon thing, and it can be great for a while - but for a year on the road? NFW.
So long as the station wagon or other non-van vehicle is used for occasional on-the-road camping ...
... it's quite possible to carry bathing (not necessarily shower), cooking, and at least modest toilet facilities (a bottle and/or bucket in a pinch). In many places these aren't entirely necessary. Even many van-lifers forego full facilities as these impinge highly on available space, weight budgets, and flexibility.
The designs that seem most appropriate to me tend to make flexible use of space. E.g., a countertop which may conceal a composting or cassette toilet, which itself can be pulled out and a curtain up to provide a shower or sponge-bathing space.
Similarly, cooktops which can be used either inside or outside the vehicle. I can only imaging that cooking smells, grease, and the like can easily permeate everything if used extensively. In most cases ventilation requirements would mean that you'd want to have doors / windows open anyway, and an outside kitchen gives far more working and maneuvering space.
I don't full-time or even part-time RV. I own a class-a 36' diesel pusher. During the summer, I spend one month on the Oregon coast, and during the winter, I go to Twenty-Nine Palms or Palm Springs for one or two months. This allows me to fully immerse myself in an area and explore national parks and new places for an extended period.
I wish I would have known how stressful it can be. For me, It feels like there is always a drag of stress - maybe a 30% overhead of stress. If you suddenly don't have hot water, it is on you to fix it because when you are "living" in it for that period, someone won't be able to come to help you repair it for several weeks. You can't even throw money at it, they just are too busy and can't come out.
Driving can be stressful too. You get experienced to it after a while but driving at night down a two-lane highway with diesel trucks behind you, in front of you (another lane), and directly to your left where the vortex pulls you in all while you're trying to keep it in the lane can be stressful. Pulling into a truck stop to fuel can be stressful.
I like to stick to around < 300 miles per day. I prefer to arrive before it's dark. This means a 12-hour drive I would make in my car can end up taking 2-3 days in the RV. I don't mind taking the time now. I relax, unplug and enjoy it. It now relaxes me. I would rather it take time than to worry about driving at night or pulling into a spot at night.
The last few times we went we had two older dogs. One was having seizures. We didn't know it yet but she had kidney failure and had quit eating as much. We didn't notice her feeding habits at home since the other dog was a jerk, eating her portions without us knowing. The trip was fortunate because we got to see everything up close and in person. I have a slight deficiency in object permanence and for them to be right there in my face, we were able to see it. The other dog -- nicknamed Pigbert now -- was having serious issues with his arthritis. He would randomly screech due to pain. A steroid for two weeks solved it quickly.
If you combine those things with the 30% constant drag of stress it can be very unpleasant. No hot water, caring for dogs in crisis, and stressful drives all lead to something that is quite unmanageable.
My advice is to just be aware of managing stressors and ensuring you have as few as possible on travel days. My other advice is - if it sounds like it is for you - DO IT. I have backpacked Europe and traveled to very nice resorts. None of them top the amazing experiences I have had on the road. I won't personally live in that small of a space full-time or part-time but I admire those that do it.
This is a pretty good summary of how I feel and why I dig my heels in every time my wife starts talking about a new camper, a boat or whatever. I suspect she envisions it like a magazine cover: better, carefree versions of ourselves enjoying the sunshine with friends (who are ideally green with envy).
Boats are just holes in the water you throw money into.
Campers, I actually agree with you and that's as someone on his second purchase. But, my agreement comes in the form that I believe everyone should baby step their way in. Tent camp at an improved campground (meaning, at least a toilet onsite. Plumbing very optional and probably not happening). If your crew enjoy it, then it makes sense to step up but I'd still go small. Small towable/travel trailer. By that point, you'll know what you want/need.
For a couple, might be worth considering putting a roof top tent on a 4x4, and put a kitchen set up in the back of the vehicle. Can be an affordable and efficient combo.
You need to be the sorts of people for whom the highs make it worthwhile. For me, that's what I live for - adventuring around, seeing things, getting away. So I tolerate the stress, the costs, trying to find somewhere safe to sleep in a random forest after midnight, etc. Otherwise, it's a lot more hassle and getting the new camper doesn't just make it all easy. You're still vying for popular camping spots, still trying to get time off work when you want it, etc.
This isn't a stressor, just an observation. Another thing I would share is that most of the people on the road are twice my age. This can be a pleasure when you meet unique people who like you because you remind them of their grandkids which means they spoil you with meals and stories. This can also be a nightmare where they are retired, have nothing to do but complain and there is a major generational difference in how they understand and respect your same-sex marriage.
I drive a class B up to 400 miles a day. You really don't want to drive more than 8 hours daily no more than you want to work more than 8 hours daily. And I say that as someone who went from San Diego to Seattle in a single crazy marathon drive once in a sports car during the very dar.kest days of the pandemic. I will eventually trade mine in for an EV option because my limitation isn't hot water or gasoline but rather electricity. I have both a generator and lithium batteries but on a 100° day I like to be polite. So the idea of charging the silly thing at an electrify America is really appealing. Cue someone ranting about the environmental toll of EVs.
I did this for about 2 years across the United States. If you’re employed, make sure your manager is supportive/already remote friendly.
Get good internet. I found Verizon to be the best for cellular and this was before Starlink Mobile was available. Get a directional cellular antenna and mount (not a repeater/amplifier) and learn how to point the antenna at towers if you plan to do any “boondocking” out in the west of the US. Otherwise, everywhere else these days likely has internet.
Compost Toilet is a win in my book. Very little maintenance and no nasty tanks to deal with. But, it’s not for everyone.
Decide if you need showers in your wheeled home or not. That drives the cost of your rig significantly. Most RVs are absolute trash for quality south of $50k.
There was a guy on Reddit recently complaining about how hard it was to keep up with orders for his teardrop trailers. A bunch of people told him he wasn’t charging enough and should raise his prices and use the money to hire someone and also to look for better deals from suppliers (eg, larger orders less frequently).
My parents (now ~70yo) ordered an expensive offroad trailer/caravan around the time COVID hit. The regular build time plus delays will put it at almost three years from order to delivery. For people who are not exactly getting more agile each year! I feel for them. They have very limited recourse against the delays also.
I nearly felt allergic while reading about the endless quality control issues. Piecework only "works" when people easily can and do verify the product delivered. A combination of customers and shareholders are getting boned by workers, their managers, and the dealerships here. Incentives matter.
There’s this notion with many of these solutions that we could rent a few hours from Yellowstone, the parents could get up at the crack of dawn and drive while the kids sleep. Wake up kids, that’s Yellowstone up ahead! But most of these contraptions specifically warn against operating them while occupied. They aren’t built for accidents.
Community has an episode at the end where they trash a camper. It seemed comedy driven at first but the longer I looked at it and campers the more plausible that scene seemed. It’s foam and plywood.
Edit: I finally clicked through the autopian link from up thread and it’s reminding me there’s a guy I watch sometimes who does conversion vans. All of his stuff is built around those extruded aluminum rails. He hasn’t figured out how to make use of those last few cubic feet yet but he seems to do a good job and they’re fairly sturdy. Last I watched he was perfecting his showers.
I now wonder what it would look like if he converted buses instead of shop vans. You have a superstructure that might actually survive a hit, they’re already set up for AC units, you “just” need to build repeatable interiors. But you need much more shop space, time, and capital to do something of that sort.
There, edited it for you for accuracy. :-) Seriously, our Thor retailed for $100K in 2018, and I've been through that entire vehicle while installing solar/inverter/battery. As I've told my spouse, "there isn't a straight screw in that whole interior". I've probably pulled a bathroom garbage container worth of crap out of the walls (leftover trimmings and the like). Yeah, didn't think anyone would look in there, eh? :-)
"South" to mean down or below, and likewise for north, drives me up a wall. If you are standing at the south pole, north is down. There's also no concept of up/down in space, and so northern hemisphere normalcy is false. To Australians, North America is below!
On a conventionally oriented map, south is always down, and north is always up. "Down south" and "up north" are also very common phrases when discussing relative geographical locations, due to the same reason.
And if you turn around, left and right change places... woah.
Snide comment aside, it's obviously in reference to standard map orientation. Maps had to be oriented somehow, unless you're advocating for the chaos of arbitrary individual map orientations.
I'm Australian and don't know anyone here who wouldn't consider North America "above". Can't imagine having the time to be that pedantic. Using "north of $50k" to describe something more expensive than $50k is very standard here too.
We've been in a 20-year old class-C for a year, it requires regular handyman maintenance (we bounce down a lot of dirt roads) but it has been very mechanically reliable. Upgrading to 200ah of LiFePO4, adding a 140L water tank on the hitch, and plumbing in an external hose for beach showers really improved our quality-of-life. The only thing that will kill them is roof leaks, make sure you replace the rubber roof every 5 years or so.
Give it a few months before you start accessorising, we've kept it to a couple of ebikes, camp chairs+table, and a paddleboard. Don't bother with Starlink unless you need to be online 24/7, and if you do get it, consider it only as a supplimentary to a good rugged dual-sim 4G modem.
Back home (NZ) we were in a almost-new Sprinter, which was great on fuel, but less fun once you wanted to go off-road or abuse it in any way. Our 2WD Ford goes places people don't dare bring their shiny new 4x4s.
I wouldn't go over 22' long, especially in Mexico and the fun parts of Canada, otherwise you'll just be touring RV parks with all the other people towing F150s and jetskis and bouncy castles.
I travel for months at a time but have a "real" property to land at, so not completely nomadic. YMMV especially if full-time.
> share their general setup
I own a mid-sized SUV that gets 25-30 MPH. Think RAV4/CRV/Forester/Rogue/etc -- it's all the same just buy whatever you can get a good deal on (definitely RAV4 hybrid if you plan on lots of city driving; otherwise financially it's a wash until you get to $5/gal or so).
- bed platform in the back.
- Passenger seat is converted into a desk.
- onboard storage under the bed, in the back foot wells, and a battery in the spare tire well.
- outboard storage (including spare tire and water) on the roof rack. Solar panels over that stuff. Ran a cable from the panels to the battery.
- I have a little tent setup on the side which is nice when you have a place to land and want to... stand up.
> monthly costs
When on the road, I make due on about $500/mo and live quite luxuriously. I eat out and drink, even. Not counting the cost of the car or health insurance.
That number is going up over time due more to lifestyle creep than inflation. I try to keep my monthly expenses below one twelfth of 4% of 30% of my liquid post-tax assets.
> any tips/tricks/advice?
People spend stupid amounts of money to avoid renting and dependency on others.
Don't buy a bunch of shit. Instead, invest and rent!
Case-in-point: showers. You can blow $50K extra to have a setup that gives you indoor showers. Or, you can buy notes and have 50000*.05/12 = $200/mo = at least a few showers per week AND you get to keep the principal!!! (and that's just the winter months -- for the cost of one hour/month of cold water showering for 9 months you get an extra $1800/yr to reinvest!)
If you are young and single, anything bigger than Transit Connect is unnecessary. Honestly, I've seen people live in priuses for years at time quite comfortably. As that number as gone up, so too have the number of lobsters/cocktails/burgers/dates.
Try not to work from the car. A transit connect or RV beats an SUV you want to work from the car, but I promise you would prefer to work from a coffee shop or by following the weather and working outside as much as possible. You'll end up avoiding work days in the rig even if you have the space, so why blow stupid amounts of money? You live out of a car; I promise you won't want to also work out of a car.
Haha. I don't and it's kind of gross right now. I'll take a pic and post it here next time I have a chance. TL;DR it's basically just a tray so I don't have to put the laptop on my lap... you will be disappointed :)
I got laid off at the start of Covid, but I had enough money saved up that I wasn't in a hurry to get a new job. I looked at lots of manufactured trailers and considered vans as well.
Vans are great because you always have everything with you, but that also means you always have everything with you. Trailers are great because you can drop them and just have a normal car, but then you have to find somewhere to drop them. In the end, I went with a trailer because they're a lot cheaper and I didn't want to go cutting holes in van.
I'd initially planned on getting a manufactured trailer, but all the ones I looked at didn't seem worth the money. The real deal breaker for me was I wanted to do a lot of camping near ski areas and cheaper trailers (sub-$50k) all have plumbing outside the insulated area. I didn't really want to spend $30-50k and then not be able to use the plumbing.
Driving back from an RV dealership, I saw someone pulling a U-Haul and that got me wondering. Sure enough, there's tons of content on youtube of people building out cargo trailers. I actually started by renting a U-Haul for a week and camping out of it in the middle of winter. It wasn't great, but it worked.
At this point, I'm pretty happy with the choice I made, but it's been a ton of work and lots of uncertainty. It's a lot less stressful cutting a hole in a $5k trailer vs a $20-70k van, but it's still pretty stressful. I basically knew nothing about building when I started out. You can just start camping in a cargo trailer right away and it's still better than a tent ... or a teardrop trailer imo.
I've come up with lots of tricks along the way and at some point I'll blog about them. I still have a million ideas I want to try building too though.
It's going to be more expensive than you think, if you try to live in it the way you would in a regular apartment or house. The need for lightness in construction means there are compromises that you will have to work around.
I found Visible to be fast enough at 5mbps for most things. I hooked up a Wifi router to serve as a client for those cases where I wasn't tethering.
I think it is tougher when you try to work a remote job, since you basically do everything in the same small space. Eat cook work sleep read etc all in the same x square feet.
It really depends! I mean you can get by for not much money, or you can live in a million dollar RV at a $200/night park in the keys with a private dock and cabana.
You can get a pretty decent truck/camper combo for under $100k.
Also curious. I was looking locally for some sort of meetup/show where I could see people builds, ask about cost, etc. Sadly I just missed an expo the previous weekend.
I'm in a Leisure Travel Vans Wonder Rear Twin bed, which is a 25 foot "Class B+" RV built on a Ford Transit Chassis.
For internet, we use a combo of Verizon (via a Wineguard antennae on our roof) and Starlink (the not-mounted, mobile version) and it's worked wonderfully. Verizon works great near cities. Starlink works great in more remote settings as long as there aren't trees, but the extra long starlink cable makes it pretty easy to find spots where I can connect.
We largely moochdock (staying in family/friends driveways), but when we travel we will alternate spending a week or two in remote parks, then parks nearer a city, etc. so that we get a good combo of civilization and nature. Parks near cities normally run us around $40 per night, and more remote places are largely either free or around $20 per night. There are a surprising number of random costs that have popped up over time, and our budget typically is cheaper than when we owned/rented different houses, but not by that much.
My wife and I can comfortably make it about 7 days without any hookups before we need to go to a park. We have solar + a gas generator, so we never have issues with electricity. It's usually either running out of fresh water or filling our black tank that will limit our remote stays.
There are high highs and low lows with RVing. Highs include being able to work comfortably from literal caves and beaches with nobody in sight (Red Rock Park in CA is gorgeous and nobody goes there, as an example). Lows include being stuck in a place we didn't like for two months after we needed unexpected window/body repairs and couldn't drive. Having your house be your mode of transportation can be extremely limiting. We don't tow a car or have the tow capacity to in our current RV, but I wish we did.
My biggest piece of advice is to meet new people and to see old friends/family as much as possible. Hot tubs and hiking are my go tos for meeting new people, and I've made some incredible friends doing each. But it's different than before I was nomadic. I meet people, and two days later we're hiking together, and three weeks later we're hiking in Hawaii together staying in the same AirBnb, and then one of us goes to the midwest and the other to California and we don't see each other for months/years. It's fast paced and fun, but it can also do a number on your mental health if you need consistency in your life. A therapist helps me, as do frequent trips to see family/friends, as does having friends at my place of work that I chat with remotely, but coordinating in-person meeting can be hard when many of my nomad friends could be in any of 48 states most of the time.
I love my RV, and choose to live in it even when I have other options available (like if we're at a cabin, hotel, etc.). If you can make an RV your happy place, it can be a lot of fun touring the world.
Second this! We also found an added benefit of not going longer than the 22 footer (assuming a F150 with short bed towing) is that you can typically fit across two parking spots which opens up your options when you stop quite a lot.
I've been doing van life for over a year while being a Director of Engineering. This has involved a large amount of being on Zoom calls. I figured it would be helpful for any engineers (or managers) for me to break down some of my costs.
Internet
1. Starlink internet [50GB/mo priority data, unlimited non-priority] - $250 monthly / $2000+ for flat mount hardware. I had/have the less-expensive RV/home dish (non-mobile) before the mobile flat mount high performance dish came out. I can quickly attach it to the Harbor Freight flag pole and hoist it above most tree canopy if needed.
2. T-mobile hotspot [50ish GB/mo] - Roughly $55 monthly. Works great in cities with 5G.
3. Verizon mobile router (Peplink) [300GB/mo] - $150 monthly for the data plan from: https://mobilemusthave.com/
The reason I have all these is because I need redundant connections to do my job. It's not acceptable to not have internet one day. Also I use MultipathTCP to bond all my connections together so my Zoom calls never drop (which used to be a problem with Starlink, but less so now these days).
Fuel Costs
This is my greatest expense. I have a very heavy Sprinter van that I built out myself. I get about 14 MPG diesel. It really depends what State you are in on what the costs are and how much you travel. The general consensus between all the people I've met on the road (working full time) is that they put about 35k miles on their vehicle per year.
Campgrounds
Really only pay for for these when on the East Coast since there isn't as much BLM or USFS land.
Power
I have 600 amp hours of batteries with about 800 watts of solar on my roof, 1320 watts of portable panels that I can set up when I need to (mostly when I want to run the air conditioner 24 hours a day). I also have a 3360 watt auxiliary alternator that will charge the batteries real fast. The truth is I run a ton of computer equipment and never really worry about power.
This lifestyle has been amazing. I used to feel stuck being an engineer behind my desk all day. Now when I get tired of a town I can simply move onto the next one. There's also some amazing groups out there and I've actually made loads of friends across the country doing this same lifestyle so we'll often meet up in places. For example, Trent (who arguabily started the "Van Life Gamers" movement) has a discord full of people that live this lifestyle https://discord.gg/d4xsZEVH.
I would also say having a Sprinter Van has been so much better than an RV because it's much easier to go places with the van than a huge RV. I can park at a trail head for example in a normal parking spot.
Can you please share more about this? I've been curious to build a router with redundant internet providers ever since I noticed certain PCEngines boards supported LTE modem modules. [0]]
I assume you're using Linux; do you wire all your modems via Ethernet and manage MultipathTCP all in your router? Any hardware offloading you're aware of/recommend?
I have two managed switches --one is for PoE to power all my security cameras and wireless APs in the van.
The reason I use OpenWrt and the managed switches is that it's super simple to set up VLANs. Devices such as the Starlink aren't super nice when it comes to being able to configure network settings (maybe that's changed IDK). So the ports on the switches do VLAN tagging and I'm able to segregate all the network traffic including the multiple WANs into one trunk line going into the router device (the one running Proxmox with OpenWrt).
Thank you for all of this information! I also do van RVing and use a combination of carriers/connections. I did a fair amount of reading on Multipath TCP as it was new to me. What I've found seems to be fairly opaque and it doesn't seem to be highly implemented. Some notes/questions:
* Every device and endpoint that it's used on needs to support it. My PCs, mobile devices, router, etc. all need to have it enabled and configured. This makes me question if every other layer 4 router in-between you and the endpoint also need to support it.
* Endpoints that you're connecting to need to support it. It doesn't seem to be widely deployed. https://mptcp.io/
* OpenWRT's implementation doesn't seem well supported and the kernel that's needed for it is really old.
* In your Zoom example, they'd need to support it server side (I don't see anything public stating that they do, but a packet capture would verify.) Also, a lot of that sort of real time traffic is UDP or QUIC (I don't know if Zoom is.)
Interesting that you configured MultipathTCP. It has been on my to-do list since forever. I use "whatever WiFi we can latch onto" + T-Mobile hot spot device + impromptu cellphone hot spot as needed which goes through a LinkSys running OpenWRT and then on into a UDM Pro. Whenever the internet "goes out" I would just manually shunt to another connection. Think I need to prioritize the investigation of Multipath. Have never run out of data, but I am not full-time like you.
Batteries & solar - can never have enough. Am contemplating adding more, even if some of them sit in shadow for part of the day due to the AC unit.
You might want to look at swapping the Tmobile hotspot for the much better deal from Calyx: https://calyxinstitute.org/membership/internet - it's Tmo by default but falls back to Sprint when Tmo is unavailable so it'd add a fourth network to your redundancy :)
I put a tile shower in my van (you can certainly do it much lighter). I also have a Natures Head composting toilet (no smells at all.. there's a tiny fan that circulates air through a vent outside). Since I only have 30 gallons (4 of those are in the hot-water heater) of fresh water that I can cary, I'll use planet fitness showers a lot.
We were on a camping trip for the last 3 weeks through Sweden and Denmark with our VW T4 Van (Caravelle, Long Version - Not sold in US). We're usually the smallest car on campgrounds. It is incredible to see how big these RVs are getting. We try to find campgrounds with spaces without electricity because these massive campers need the electricity to power all their gear. Otherwise, we often will look at 5+ m plastic walls to both sides of us.
Our T4 on the other hand can fit in everywhere, we often stay in Sweden where regular RVs are forbidden, but car-sized is allowed. It fits 2x 200x80 cm standard matrasses behind the backseats, enough for 2 adults and kid. We even packed 2 Windsurfboards _inside_ the car.
Question to RVers/van-lifers: is it conceivable to build a van that supports living in a Nordic/Scandinavian coastal city to sustain climbing through most of the year while also being equipped enough to go to Norway for snowboard trips in the winter months? I worry about humidity/condensation and rust mostly, but are there other things I should be mindful of?
I'd prefer the smaller size of a van to get to climbing crags even if that means losing out on shower opportunities although showering would be nice. Most skiing/snowboarding destinations I've been to do not seem to have dress rooms so I guess if push to shove one can always self-clean using snow brr
Definitely should be able to. I'd recommend getting a professional to spray closed cell foam insulation.
I have a diesel heater. It's hooked up to a heat exchanger with my engine coolant loop, runs to my hot water heater, also to the forced air fan, and also throughout the entire floor. I laid pex down in the floor so I have floors that I can get up to 80 degrees F. I rarely use the forced air as the diesel heater barely sips fuel and keeps the floors nice and toasty. The advantage of the heated floors in van is that it's a thicker radiant heat, so it heats the cabinets and the walls. Then when you open the door it doesn't let all the heat out.
I would say definitely with the right van build. I lived in a self-converted van for two years with my partner, and we spent both winters ski bumming in the Northeast US and Colorado. We saw temperatures down to -14F and could keep the van a balmy 65 inside. We heated the van with an externally exhausted 16k BTU propane furnace (blew dry heat) and that thing could really crank out warmth.
As for showering, we never did in the winter because external grey tanks freeze. We did have a showerpan embedded flush in the floor so it didn't take up any space normally day to day. We would just have to set up shower curtains around it before we did. I actually showered more outside of the van for that reason.
Mostly we would just clean ourselves with hot towels for a few days before we had to wash our hair.
You can open the doors every day for some natural ventilation or install active ventilation that uses fans to pull outside air in and push the stale air out. The latter is probably preferable in winter, although it all depends on what you're able to tolerate I guess.
As for rust, I haven't experienced any significant amounts of undercarriage or panel rust on any of my 20+ year old vehicles in Western Europe, but we don't get as much snow (and salted roadways as a consequence) as Scandinavia does. You can look into undercarriage coatings for this though.
If you are the kind of person to set off on a drive without having even picked a destination like me, then it's a good idea to use the weather to decide which direction to drive. A few hours drive north might have beautiful clear skies, while a few hours south will be a thunderstorm. If you don't care where you end up, you might as well have nice weather while you do it.
Road trip weather apps are out there these days. You can check your drive forecast ahead of time! Avoid the bad weather! Get departure time recommendations!
We did the RV thing for about 4 years and it was fun. Then covid hit and it got so popular that everything was crowded and it wasn't fun anymore.
Mostly agree with this list though:
1. Size: 35ft should be your absolute limit. There are a lot of reasons for this that you'll discover as you get into it.
2. Hard mounted satellite: This was my favorite feature, but we got a dish that would keep the signal when you were driving. I took a trip from Florida to South Carolina on a Saturday in the fall. We had College Gameday on when we left and didn't miss a beat for most of the day. For me, this makes the drive a lot more enjoyable. Nothing better than getting up to make a sandwich while the game is on while stuck in a traffic jam.
3. Never tried the camping clubs, but they didn't seem worth it.
4. This makes sense, but wasn't anything we ever had an issue with.
5. Completely agree.
6. Also true. We used Dish Network on a month-to-month
7. Taking your time is pretty much the point. Enjoy the drive. Stop and see interesting things. We started actively looking for random billboard activities to chase down. Visited the Luray Caverns, Hershey Park and almost chased down the bigfoot museum but it was a little too far off the route.
8. Totally correct. You don't need a lot, but it will still feel good to be prepared. Like anything, it's a learning experience.
9. I can see this, but YMMV.
10. Costs are certainly interesting. We had 2 different RVs over 4 years. We started out with a 20 year old rig that we got cheaper than a used car and fixed it up. It wasn't perfect but we loved it. Didn't have much fancy stuff on it.
Then we upgraded to something that was about 7 years old with a lot more bells, whistles and computers. It was much nicer but was in the shop constantly because something was always broken. In retrospect, you don't need half the fancy systems on these things. Push button shades, automatic leveling systems (it's not that hard to level).
Demand went up so much that we sold both for more than we paid for them initially, except for our maintenance costs. The biggest thing is winterizing. If a sudden cold snap happens before you've winterized, you're going to be in for some bills.
We still miss the RV life, but half the fun for us we just deciding at the last minute that we'd go somewhere that weekend. As it got more popular, all of the places we'd try to go were booked up 6 months in advance. We had some great family vacations and it was a lot of fun for sporting events. Clemson never lost a game that we came to in the RV (including the 2016 championship), so I like to think we were good luck. Disney's Fort Wilderness is by far the best RV stop that we found on the east coast.
Not a full-timer, just a casual enjoy-er about four days a month of an RV kitted out how I want it.
An older model 38ft Class A diesel pusher with low mileage that has no slides. These were specific choices. If I did it over, it'd be a 32ft-er instead. No slides. Slides can fail. And the interior design is often made purposefully cramped until you deploy the slides. My RV is basically an open plan office & kitchen with tile & wood flooring throughout. Though I am in the process of ripping out the carpet in the bedroom because - it is time. Not sure if I will go with tile, wood or tatami mats.
My RV sits two comfortably and sleeps two comfortably. Me and my wife. Everybody else can walk. We simply don't take passengers or ride alongs.
We pulled out the dinette, the built-in ice maker, the couch that reclines and folds down into another bed, and every other accoutrements that would accommodate six to eight people for a two week vacation. Now there is so much more space for activities. The dinette area turned in to a prep area with a custom built cabinet underneath with lots of shallow drawers. I can quite categorically state that the kitchen and prep area in the RV is larger than the one in our condo and has way more storage. The bathroom/dressing room is pretty comfortably sized too. I pulled out the shower enclosure and put in a Japanese soaking tub and a simple curtain rail for showers.
Interior is an eclectic mix between boho and traditional Japanese. Full height sliding shoji screens with reinforced lexan inserts (just in case someone left something on a countertop and I need to slam on the brakes) that separate cockpit from living area for privacy. Sliding shoji screen doors on bathroom and bedroom. Sliding shoji screen window covers. All the 1980's era country kitchen knobs, handles and pulls got replaced with either custom made pulls or an eclectic mixture of cabinet pulls we have found on our travels. Replaced all the external cabinet door hinges interior euro-hinges. All the country kitchen woodwork got sanded and repainted to a neutral white. Replaced all the terrible "we cut a lot of corners" drawer slides with push to open/soft-close slides.
We went with reasonably high-end appliances; GE Profile fridge/freezer, cook top, microwave, dishwasher, Gaggenau high BTU wok unit converted to propane, and a Bosch washer/dryer combo unit in the bathroom. Wolf counter top oven (which also doubles as our toaster). And then the usual collection of small appliances that every kitchen has; rice maker, food mixer, food processor, immersion blender, Wega Polaris 2 group machine, teppanyaki grill plate that sits over the regular cook top. Built a vented (to the outside) cat litter box into a cabinet in the bathroom. Bunch of solar on the roof (that I need to get up there and clean) and a lot of lithium in the basement to power all the electronics. The one thing we don't have in our RV is a regular TV screen, which means we don't have anything to point any of our furniture at. Have been contemplating a composting toilet, which would reduce our black water tank to pretty much just grey water storage.
I put in two sit-to-stand electric desks, with Humanscale monitor arms, and a Humanscale laptop arm. Both desks have dual 4K curved displays and wireless accessories. Amazon has some nice mesh workstation chairs that fold down and slide right under the desks when not in use. Custom 19" rack mount cabinet. Ubiquiti Dream Machine Pro SE with a couple of WiFi APs and a G3 doorbell camera. APC LiIon UPS. ~24TB (30TB physical, 22.something TB actual) flash-only Synology media server (music, movies & TV shows) that automatically syncs to the Synology in the condo whenever the RV connects to specific WiFi networks. We have a WiFi booster antenna that will form a bridge for us to distant networks - use a LinkSys with OpenWRT and some custom scripts to make that happen. And we have a cellular booster for our T-Mobile phones & hotspot with about 100GB of data per month.
Couple of e-bikes in the storage bay, my wife's reflector telescope, and a tool chest of accessories and tools for RV maintenance and those "aw, shit" moments of life, e.g. air filters, emergency fluids, power washer, cordless drill, full set of wrenches. We travel reasonably light (for an RV); no camping gear, no deck chairs, very few clothing items, not a lot of extra stuff that many RV'ers haul around with them.
I will agree with the article, you don't need anywhere near the amount of stuff you think you need. I only have AAA and Good Sam for the recovery/break down options, and some extra insurance in case of a complete failure. Obviously remote work has made using the RV a lot more possible than it did pre-COVID, though the number of RV'ers has skyrocketed since before the pandemic.
You can pretty much put anything you want in, the furniture isn't usually special unless it's a class b or something. Lots of people just go to ikea to upgrade their furniture, lots of people just put standard desks and sit stand stuff, whatever fits
> Pre-Post Note/ Nov 2017. Although this post was written in 2011
> it’s still my most popular post ever (!!), so I’m refreshing it
> as part of our 8th year on the road. See my updates in italics
> below the original text on each topic.
