> "Researchers also find that when we develop groups, our friendships are more sustainable than they are with individuals. Because there's multiple touch points now, right? Someone else in the group could reach out to all of us, and then we all keep in touch."
This is the most important tip in the article, in my experience.
When I lived in SF, most of my friend hangs were 1-on-1 catchups over coffee or lunch. Scheduling and comparing calendars would sometimes feel like an impersonal chore. Meeting so many people individually was time consuming, repetitive, hard to schedule, and yet somehow infrequent -- it felt like the main reason to hang was to catch up on what's new, so you needed to wait a month or two to let new things pile up.
Then I moved to Seattle. I decided to switch to only really attending (or inviting people to) hangouts that included multiple people. Basically, my new policy was to try to hang out with multiple simultaneously whenever possible. And it worked wonders! My friends met all my other friends, and things played out exactly as described by the article -- some of them hit it off, became friends with each other, and started initiating invites and events without me.
In addition, hangouts are just more fun with more people. There's more to talk about, more excitement, more fun. And it's easier to schedule, too, since you can see more people in a smaller number of hangs. The value of the hangs goes up, too. There's more reason for people to say "yes" because they're getting to catch up with multiple people, not just one person.
One thing I found strange about SF is that I never found a group that would do the weekly hang.
The weekly hang is a socially porous experience, it has a fixed location and fixed start time but everything else is improvised. Different people could dip in and out, people felt free to bring new friends, people they just started dating, friends from out of town etc. Some people came once and never again, others become regulars. The hallmark of a great weekly hang is that the entire initial cohort gets replaced but the weekly hang still persists.
It's a commitment in time that "busy professionals" ostensibly had no time for which is why I think it was so unpopular in SF but it really killed a big part of the vibe of the city for me.
I'm intrigued by this, I feel like I know a lot of people but I don't think I know anybody with anything like this. Closest is maybe a weekly book club but that's different.
What kind of location -- is this a bar or a park or a brunch spot or something like bowling? How big is the group usually, like 6 or 20? Is it weekend afternoon or weekday evening? And how does it get started, does it just start organically or is it a group decision among a bunch of existing friends?
I think I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it because if I go with friends for food it's always somewhere new, if it's an activity it's always different, and the idea of the exact same time and location every week seems like it would get dull quick. Maybe that's because I'm accustomed to the fact that in big cities the whole point is novelty, always something new to explore. The idea of a fixed time and a fixed location doesn't seem as compatible with that.
Where did you find it successful pre-SF? Was it a mid-sized city thing, or a more country thing, or a college thing? I'm just so curious to know more.
When I was college-aged, several of my friends would meet at the same pool hall every Saturday night. We'd play pool or sometimes darts and shoot the shit. Usually was only 4-6 people though, but sometimes it'd get up to 10. It never got boring as the pool always kept it interesting, you could always try to get better, and change it up between a few different types of pool (Cut Throat, 8-ball, and 9-ball, mostly).
There was another time when there was a weekly karaoke group I hung out with. Again pretty small, like 4-6 people usually. Always the same place. Seeing who would go up to sing (from other groups besides our own, too) and what songs they'd try kept it interesting.
There's also a Friday night board game group that I've now been a part of for about eight years now, that's had it almost every week. I haven't always been able to go, but I've probably been to probably at least two hundred of them at this point. It used to be more open and would have 6-12 people there regularly, but the guy who hosted it (out of his house) originally got tired of doing it, and when it migrated to another host it whittled down to only 5 core people. But even at the new host's home that's been going for like four years now (without me and another guy for most of 2020-2021 because of the pandemic).
So yeah, having some sort of game or activity it centers around tends to help, at least in my case. Especially something that doesn't require specific people and if people can drop in or out pretty easily (people can arrive late or leave early and no big deal, they can still jump into a game or sign up to sing a song, etc).
Dinners don't work quite as well, imo, because it requires people to arrive pretty much at the same time.
When I moved (back) to Seattle, one of my coworkers invited me along after work for Monday night pool. This had been going on for a couple years by the time I showed up, and I made it a regular part of my life for the next decade. I made some of my best and longest-lasting friendships there; those connections led to others, and on again, ultimately populating most of my social world in this city.
It was a simple thing which didn't need a lot of coordination. You just showed up after work if you felt like it and hung out as long as you wanted to. When each game ended, the winner took on a new challenger; new arrivals were automatically next up. Between games, you hung out, drank beer, chatted, enjoyed each other's company, maybe got some food (if you ordered a plate of fries, it would be shared with all; that was the rule). Some people were serious about pool and played hard, while others only went for a round or two; some people stayed until midnight, while others just dropped in for a pint.
I don't know exactly how many people were part of this thing; anyone could invite anyone, so there were maybe forty or fifty people involved overall, roughly a dozen of them regulars. On any given night there might only be five or six present, but sometimes on a nice summer evening you'd get fifteen or twenty, and we'd open up another table.
Not a country thing - this was right in the heart of the city. It's possible some of the people may have known each other from college but that certainly wasn't the defining character; we were all working professionals, ages from mid 20s to late 40s. I wasn't there when it started but I believe it was a group decision among existing friends.
I've done something like this at different points in the past. I once had a group where every Wednesday night we would meet at the same pub for some drinks and dinner with an open invitation for anybody that wanted to join. Some weeks there were 3 or 4 of us, some weeks there were 20.
Had another group where every Saturday morning we would go to a different cafe for brunch. It was a smaller and less dynamic group, and we would organise the venue in a group chat throughout the week, but it wasn't a question of, "who wants to come this week?", it was just assumed we would all be there and phrased as, "Any objections to trying this place?"
There's a pretty successful version of this in London called London Drinking Club, which is literally just a bunch of people meeting up at the same pub every week with name tags.
Pre-covid, I did this for about nine years. Trivia night at a local bar. The meeting even survived the closing of the original bar; we just moved to a different bar. However the size of the group did shrink over time, mainly coinciding with several members meeting other people and so not being single any longer. Since covid there's only been the occasional get-together, since not enough of the remaining members are willing to do something regular.
This is how I met most of my current friends, as well. I was at a local bar one night on what turned out to be trivia night. There were a few of us who didn't know anybody well but had seen each other at the bar before, so we decided to form a team to win some of our tab back.
Fast forward 8 or so years. We no longer do trivia, but get together just about every week along with the siblings, childhood friends, girlfriends, and wives that have joined us over the years.
It's a little strange to think of how different my life would be had I not been at that bar on that night, but that's how these things work: you put yourself in a situation where something social is going on, and all that's standing between you and making some new friends is saying "yes."
Imagine the friends you didn't make because you stayed in that one night when you were on the fence about going out. Good thing too -- it kept you out of prison!
I mean, imagining what 'wouldn't have been' is a lot easier than imagining what 'could have happened' because you literally have no idea. You can imagine life without your friend group, but try to imagine a life where you ended up grabbing a drink at Jeffery Dahmer's apartment or any of a million other things.
yeah, I am a bit confused by the statement. I have never planned this, it just happens after repeatedly meeting at the same pub in some frequency. I've also seen a shared, regular activity create this, for example the monthly pub quiz or sneak preview in the small independent cinema. I think it's important that it's somewhat accessible everyone so that it's not a chore.
Board game meetup. Show up, with or without games you would like to play, and either join a game table or invite others to play the game you are setting up.
Throughout my life this has mostly been my friend groups. It's really only sustainable with at most 6 people max or something like that.
I think this is more inline with the way humans have evolved as we evolved in small local tribes (Not of 6 people, but in modern times it's hard to keep anything more than 6 from breaking up).
This started out as several different friend groups when I grew up. Those evolved as time passed and then in college in the dorms we formed groups based off of proximity. Then after college I befriended a san francisco local and he introduced me to his childhood friend group he grew up with and I hung out with them for a number of years before leaving.
After that it's been hard to find another group. I have found that proximity when eating is the best most consistent way to form friendships. If you always eat lunch or dinner consistently and often with the same set of people you guys will end up forming a bond. Even with your co-workers. If you want it outside of work I have found communal living spaces where there's a shared table for eating helps promote this. Very hard to do this when you get married.
Also note that when the proximity ends, the connection tends to drift as well. You will find that this is not only consistent with friends but family as well.
I had in friends in SF that tried, I just couldn't get on board with their concept of fun
I wasn't into board game night, I also tried DnD which was ok but what an arduous turn based system and ritual, the weeknight bars were meh (to me), weeknight nightlife was pathetic compared to actual “world class” cities, some of my friends did well in the bouldering scene, there was a time when I was interested in free pizza and accumulating AWS credits at tech mixers, but that got old quick.
Turns out I don't like tech industry, I like money alongside the ability to build things myself. No big surprise there, just would have thought that the money in SF would have attracted more interesting and varied people.
I don’t think cities that gather the “I like money” folk have really ever attracted interesting people, or another way: money doesn’t make people interesting.
Yes, it’s too nerdy, but some longer time residents will rant and rave about all the attractive women now in the city, as “tech” became more approachable as well as allure of money attracted more for other reasons
But I personally find the bar to be low, “San Francisco 49ers” is still loudly proclaimed, its a derogatory rating system for women “4’s that think they are 9’s”. or “LA 4’s are SF 9’s”. Derogatory, but not inaccurate. I’m sure we can find a synonymous progressive way of acknowledging the exact same phenomenon.
Then, even longer time residents speak of a mystical way more cooler version of San Francisco, with artists! except every currently nice neighborhood is described as a once dangerous ghetto, and nothing sounds appealing about that to me either.
There's a lot of systems that are simpler, easier, and in my personal opinion, more fun than d&d. For example, FATE. The star wars RPG is pretty good too. Tabletop games can also vary a lot in quality depending on the group and the GM.
LA, NY, Miami circuit. Dose of some select spots for European summers.
Professionally, I got in front of the people I needed to in Silicon Valley and flipped a couple startups with non-dilutive capital and got out. Probably stayed in SF one or two years longer than needed, but I was open to making that my identity at the time so I tried to make it work, I like some things about Norcal just that they were always excursions instead of right in my neighborhood. People that like SF were almost never talking about things they liked within the city limits, it was things they liked somewhere between the pacific ocean and the border of Nevada, spoiler alert, not whats attractive about other cities.
Now I never mention tech unless its useful to talk about my exposure to a specific opportunity.
IME, everything in SF that young people might want to go to is packed full of young people who made reservations a couple of weeks in advance. Not a lot of venues for drop-in occasions that accommodate 6-20 people dipping in and out.
Edit: I can sort of imagine this happening at a bar with an unusually big patio, like SF's Zeitgeist. Not that Zeitgeist has a huge patio, it's just huge for the area. And if this gathering was always at a bar, I wouldn't go much, because I have a ton of trouble hearing people in bars.
I have met most of my friends through church. I have a board game group that meets every Monday night (best night for all of us) and everyone there first got to know each other at church.
I have been tempted to look into this, I'll admit. I remember when I used to do Sunday youth group every week as a kid. If I could find a local one that just had a regular board game night or something I'd probably be down to give it a try.
If you find a traditional church to be a bit too heavy-handed on some current wedge issues for your liking, you might find a Unitarian Universalist church to be more like what you describe.
Your local Facebook or meetup.com page probably has a running group that meets regularly. Look for the "Meet at 6:30am Friday morning in the parking lot by Starbucks" group. If you show up to that enough I guarantee you'll have 20-50 friends by the end of this year and attend a fun Christmas party where you know or can chat to multiple people.
It is no exaggeration that to say that social fitness fundamentally changed my life as an adult. I had, one day at the gym, decided to try a group fitness class. I had seen the class many times. Normally at the gym I lifted weights, wearing my headphones doing my Chinese language lessons. I saw they were getting an awesome workout, so one day I went and joined them, they were super friendly and welcoming and I became a repeat customer and started doing a different class at the gym. That instructor invited me to try her class at another gym where she taught. I took her up on it and met there another even larger group very friendly, and very social people. My gym moved locations so I switched to going to the gym that I had visited. I hardly ever used the weight machines. I did the fitness classes but some do use weights.
A couple months in at the new gym I met a woman who soon became my best friend. An odd pair we made me being a 55 year old introverted redhead and her being a 36 year old gregarious French-African. But we are both engineers and love fitness. Our friendship really bonded over training for the Rachel Carson Challenge, a 36 mile hike.
And running - well that opened up and even more important social network. I started running with a small group in the neighborhood that was organized by my soon-to-be best friend, then added a larger city-wide group that another soon to be very close friend had introduced me to, and then joined the local Fleetfeet group with her after she mentioned that they were also very nice - even though they met on Sundays, which I had always treated as my Fitness day off.
The first several times I went on Fleetfeet runs without my friend was a bit awkward, as I didn't really know anyone. I am by nature on the introvert side of that scale. But running, like the Rachel Carson Challenge hike, gives you a lot of one-on-one time with people – often complete strangers. After running and talking to someone for hours, you are no longer strangers. The Fleetfeet runs usually starts at a Starbucks and then at the end of the run we would stay for coffee and a snack. You do that every week with a group of people and, like my fitness classes - if you have a social bone in your body - you're going to end up with a group of good friends.
The other thing going on in my life which was quite challenging in terms of my loneliness is that my wife has left me and I was living alone. Without my new social network, my life would've been a much bigger challenge. The amount of emotional support that I got was beyond measure. A few months into doing group runs, I talked with a new stranger who six months later became a romantic partner. Thus, I can trace my current happy relationship state to that one moment in the gym where I decided to take off my headphones and do a group fitness class.
Apologies for the long post, but your “running group” suggestion motivated me to share my story. Take off your headphones and join a fitness group! It’s a twofer as you’ll also get in great shape.
I can go one step further. I was a part time fitness instructor. I taught at one particular gym 3 days a week. It was very much our social circle. We would meet there for class, train for runs, run charity races at different places at least once per month, we went to each others weddings, etc. It was my most fun group as an adult.
Then life happened in 2012. I got married and moved to the other side of the metro area and couldn’t find time to teach anymore and soon after “something” happened and my asthma flared up and it took over a year to recover and then other long standing physical issues started becoming more prominent.
But most fitness classes were mostly female. Mine was different since my choreography was simple and athletic. We were also all single or both the husband and wife would come. It would be seen as creepy as a male to try to make “friends” with women I met at the gym especially now at 50 and myself being married.
Ironically enough, my wife is involved in the fitness industry now and I meet a lot of couples via her friends.
Anyway, I started back training for runs earlier this year and will be joining running clubs.
Glad to hear you started training. Same here after some health issues.
> It would be seen as creepy as a male to try to make “friends” with women
Not sure why you or anyone would think that. In my case also it was nearly all women. But they approached me - because they are a social and welcoming group. I was married at the time. It wasn't a flirty thing at all. But it did result is a different friendship situation in that most of my friends were female. But trust me they make most excellent friends. Not afraid to share their feelings and listen to yours, and to say "I love you".
Women naturally have their “creep factor” on at the gym. It was easy when I was the instructor and it was a group of us doing things just to invite one more person.
OP here. I'll write a post longer than yours, haha. Same story. Lonely at home - married to a loving but non-friend-compatible wife. Showed up to my local running group, kept showing up.
"After running and talking to someone for hours, you are no longer strangers."
Long, phone free, distraction free, interruption free, no-pressure, no "ask", no "work-relationship" to preserve, you're both sweaty, spitting, farting, drinking, exhausted, but proud of yourself and the others who are kicking butt that moring as well... I imagine it's why soldiers bond so well - shared adversity.
If you're a lonely geek reading this, a running group is an easy formula for friends. I've lived in the same town for 17 years - joining the running group and meeting others made it feel like home instead of just the place that I lived. Random streets and neighbourhoods aren't just "over there" they're now "Bob lives there". Going out for a run and getting honked at, or driving around for errands and honking at friends is just good fun.
---
I don't usually journal, but this day was an adventure with friends, something I hadn't had since Grade 7 until 40+... Just an embellished story about a drive out to someone's house, a run down a country road and the animals that we saw on the way. Being included and having fun had been missing from my life for too long.
Dec 28, 2022 I met J at my friend K's house and went on a road-trip to meet other friends; to climb mountains, descend valleys, fight off wild dogs, scare cows, dodging killer (wheeled) beasts, and run with horses, ending with Irish cream whiskey around a bartop table.
All the wording on that meetup page says to me "come run with us". 3.5 miles and then back to Starbucks to chat for 25 minutes sounds just about right. Most people will have driven, so if you turn around earlier you can be back at starbucks for chatting.
It will take a few times of showing up to make friends. It kind of feels like walking into a workplace cafeteria where people eat together everyday, what they're talking about or laughing about is something they've talked or laughed about previously, so all the details are missing and they're just asking about X or Y updates.
I encourage you to go, at least a few times. Read "how to win friends and influence people" and "The Charisma Myth" before your first one if you need a "how the heck do I deal with new people" boost.
Send me a picture of your running group photo at Christmas and it'll make my year!
I have spoken to people in that group and attended some of their events. I hope you will allow the possibility that I know more about the group than their Meetup page says.
For example, the 3.5 miles on Wednesdays is on a track at a local high school. I was literally getting lapped over and over, just like in high school.
Reach out to the group and see if you could lead a more casual run distance as part of their Wednesday run. The run groups I've been a part of were receptive to things like that. The more important aspect of the run was the general finish time and not the distance.
Most of the ones that pop up on Meetup for me (and I'm referring to hiking groups, not running groups, I can't run for very long at all) seem to pick trail routes that will be at least 5-8 miles long, and you risk getting lost if you have to stop early, or they insist on a specific fast pace in the description, or it's an hour drive away just to get there, or they're in the middle of the day on a weekday, which I pretty much can't ever do.
Pretty rare I find one of these that are both around 3 miles (about my limit most days unless I'm at a park all day with breaks, my feet and sometimes lower back start getting pretty sore) and a more casual pace. I do attend those that I find, though. But that tends to be like 3 per year. Kind of defeats the purpose of making friends in these groups.
I don't think I've found any that are just 'go as far as you want and we'll meet you back at the local Starbucks' though, at least not near me.
Here's the next few upcoming, as an example:
"6 mile Hike Not a Beginner's hike" - (Tuesday midday)
"About 4.5- or 5-miles total" - (Tuesday midday)
"Walk about 2 miles" (but Tuesday midday and 45 minutes away, can't drive there, hike 2 miles, and drive back during a workday)
"We will be hiking 4.5 miles at a faster pace (3.75 mph) dependent on trail conditions." - (Evening, but fast pace and a bit too long)
"6.5 miles with shorter options" - (from the map it looks like the shorter option is "turn back around", it's one big loop. it's on a Sunday but it's also over an hour drive away from me)
No mention of meeting anywhere afterwards in any of those.
Is there a hash hounds harriers group in mountain view (https://www.hashhouseharriers.com/what-is-hashing/)? I would be somewhat surprised if not given they are everywhere. Excellent both socially and physically for all abilities. I recommend checking them out. Essentially you run as a group, but someone has marked out a forking trail in advance. Fast runners risk taking the wrong route and so have to backtrack when someone shouts they found the marker indicating the right route. Slower runners usually know which is the right route by the time they reach the fork so have a chance to catchup. On the social side, it is excellent for meeting new people. I had family members involved in HHH groups where every week a different person would volunteer to host drinks or a meal after. This is not universal but usually there is some social meetup after each run.
I'm in the far suburbs of Chicago, but I wasn't aware of this, and it does look like there's one of these in downtown Chicago: https://www.chicagohash.com/
Downtown Chicago is a bit far for me to drive for a run, but I'll keep an eye on it in case one of them ends up a bit closer to me. And maybe this will help someone else that does live downtown. Thanks for the suggestion!
The sadness. Most groups end up chatting along the way or in the parking lot afterwards.
The other option would be to start your own.
My most local group was started as a Facebook group by a lady who wanted to run with other people. She lives on a country road and wanted to run with others in town, so she took over an existing but dead Facebook group. The time and schedule would be up to you.
This is pretty much her strategy, being intentional that you want, and welcome, people to join you.
I'm familiar with the chat during (harder for the faster pace ones, though, another reason I prefer casual pace) and parking lot afterwards. If I have to turn back at or before the halfway point for most of these I imagine I'd be waiting a while in the parking lot for them to get there, though. Also from social pressure (and feeling embarrassed of having to turn back) I'd want to try to do the full trail and I'd regret it afterwards, most of the time.
I'm aware I could start my own. I once was the admin of a different type of Meetup group that had over 1000 members. It's just more way work than I have the time and energy for anymore, and also pretty expensive if done on Meetup.com nowadays ($200/year). For as infrequently as I'd host meetups it wouldn't be worth it.
I could also try to become a co-organizer of another group, but that would probably require me being able to go to enough of these for them to trust me to be a co-organizer.
It's certainly not impossible, but it's more hassle than I want to go through, for something that I can do on my own whenever I feel like it (and with my dogs).
This. Most groups are casual, but they all have their own styles. One is a trail run where we stop every mile or so for a few minute break (if needed). Another is a 'meet at starbucks at 8am and we'll see you at 9am for coffee' where everyone runs their own pace/distance, sometimes shared, sometimes not. Another is hill repeats where walking is also 'acceptable' and we chat at the bottom and top and wait for walkers so they don't feel alone (and we get more time to rest :)
Just show up and try to improve yourself. Be friendly.
So this speaks more about you it seems. I don't know if you know this, but you won't get in trouble. Your grades aren't going down if you do something against the group. You can leave at any time because you have autonomy. At the very most 20 out of the 7 billion people might ostracize you.
I apologize, but your response is a muddle of contradictory cliches. I am literally there to make friends, of course I care what at least some of them think. I'm not there to actually run.
I went. I sucked, to the point of it being awkward. I trained daily for three months before going a second time. I still sucked. I don't know how to create the conditions that would make it productive to attend again.
This resonates with me. I found a group of folks I loosely knew in my neighborhood, and started doing an informal "Tuesday Night Dinner". There's about a dozen of us, and on any given week about 6-7 will get together, usually at someone's house, and do a potluck-style dinner. If people are busy, we do a "no pressure" takeout night, but the point is we do _something_ every Tuesday night. We've missed maybe a half dozen weeks in the past 2 years, and lots of folks have become friends outside of the group as well. It's been probably the single most enjoyable thing about the last few years living in Seattle
I’ve never heard of this sort of thing. It almost seems more like an informal club than a group of friends. (Not to knock the idea, it seems interesting).
Weekly hangs are real. I have started and participated in several. I think a key to a good group hang is to have an activity that serves as a base narrative for why everyone is together. The activity should be easy enough for newcomers to join in, and compelling enough to keep people coming back.
This is exactly what my neighbor does. He makes some fantastic home made pizzas and invites over the neighbors every Friday. You're welcome to bring whoever, but the dude can only make so much pizza, so people try to be courteous.
yup. weekly trivia nights at the pub did it for us. most of us are drinkers, but for those that aren't there's still dinner, a fun activity and good company
Really? I feel like every time I'm in another part of the country for more than a few days, one of my friends will invite me to their weekly hang and I get to meet a bunch of other cool folk.
I don’t live in the US but I’ve also never heard of this or really come across it. Is it about going to someone’s home? Or meeting at a bar? I can’t quite visualise what you’re talking about.
I think a weekly hang is really nice. My best friend and I would walk on Sunday morning. Did it for 8+ years until he fell ill and passed away. I really miss those Sundays.
I'm glad that worked for you. My experience has become that as my friends groups have gotten older, getting larger groups together has become very difficult. You have to plan it far enough in advance that everyone has sufficient notice, you need a venue large enough to host everyone, people have kids that need to be accommodated somehow, and everyone also lives further apart. All of these mean that we've gone from getting together once or twice a month to maybe once every 3 months or so. So while everyone still keeps in touch online, in-person meetups have reduced a lot in frequency.
You shouldn't obsess on having everybody or even the majority of your groups together. Besides your friends also have friends and vice-versa that aren't part of your circle so you shouldn't even think of having any kind of exclusivity.
People come and go in your life.
What I am struggle with aren't local acquaintances but friends that aren't local to me anymore.
Yeah this is my experience too. Especially, once you have kids, it is so hard to align everybody's nap times, classes, etc.
And if you somehow are able to get whole group together, then too many preschoolers around is just chaotic. Heard it will be easier once kids are older.
But for now, we usually hang out with one or maybe two families at a time.
I hate hanging out in groups and almost exclusively do 1:1. I have no problem talking to my friends for hours on end, it never feels like a chore and I always makes time. Your experience reads quite strangely to me. Even if there is nothing new to talk about, spending time with friends is rewarding in itself.
Just the wording in that particular post made it seem like a lot of work. I have had 'friends' like that in the past, and if you need things to 'pile up' so you can hold a conversation, and you find it hard to motivate yourself to do the logistics and make time, maybe they're not the most compatible people for you.
However I can't judge, because I personally dislike group hangouts, so I can understand if conversely someone finds arranging 1:1 meetings difficult.
1:1's don't renew. You have to keep feeding the relationship. The relationship can be extremely rewarding for chit chat & conversation, but it could drop at any point, and become a memory. It has no self-maintaining spirit, no ability to repair itself if one person loses some availability or time.
A group can fend for itself in a far different way. Assemblages can have members come and go, but maintain a core purpose and identity. There's rhizomatic affiliations that can find each other & get new currents & excitements going, whereas in 1:1's the potentials for connection are bounded.
Closed systems can only keep processing the same pieces of energy again and again for so long. They can steal some vitality from the surrounding, but the lifetime of the relationship is limited. You need more open dynamical systems if you want to keep interesting things going. Long term survival requires systems that can perpetuate & share themselves. 1:1's by definition cannot.
True friends do not need feeding, you can go a year without seeing each other and catch up and be right back to where you were before. And most of my 1:1 friends, I talk to regularly anyway because I want to. I've known these people for decades. So your comment about closed systems doesn't ring true to me at all.
This really doesn’t sound like a healthy ideal to me, and if I remember correctly there was this paper that would detect elevated risk of suicides by analyzing social graphs and finding nodes that weren’t part of any cliques. So that should imply that this is not good for anyone.
What percentage of those people want more friends or friendship time than they have access to? What percentage have a mental illness like depression or anxiety, or alcoholism that would cause them to spend more time alone?
I'm open to the idea that my suicide risk is higher by not having a large group support network, but I enjoy being alone and I enjoy 1:1 time enormously more than being in groups, and overall I think my quality of life is higher with this choice. Everyone is different of course.
I don't think we disagree, my point would be that you need both. But if you rely on 1:1 only you're either quickly going to lose friends or spend all your time in 1:1 (or not make new friends at all, as you can't make new friends in 1:1)
Agreed. But there is a cost to having lots of friends in the sense that those friendships tend to be superficial.... Very superficial. But that's the point. Having Superficial relationships with a larger group is just as important as having strong relationships with a few people. Most people don't realize this.
I have found that making friends around a hobby or activity is quite easy even as an adult .. Throwing yourself into a hobby (photography, pickle ball, boardgames, running, etc.) and you will meet people who love that hobby and throw them selves into it completely .. They will talk to you for hours about it .. If you are a nice person and just ask for help, people will be available to help you in your journey .. In those groups, you will likely find a few people to start developing a friendship with .. I think it takes the risky and scary part of making friends away as it just feels like hanging out until you find those persons you click with
For a while, that was my strategy to cultivate a social life: organizing brunches with 6-10 former teammates and acquaintances.
As social occasions, the brunches didn't lead to anything in my life. The guests made extremely generic smalltalk. I don't know if anyone had fun. I didn't get invited to anything else in those people's lives.
I was kind of glad that COVID killed the brunches because of how fruitless they were.
I get the idea that spending time one on one can turn into giving each other life updates instead of a more intimate exchange. But group events can also be really shallow and demotivating.
Is "couples" the reason? I (implicitly, no idea why now that you bring it up) read the other descriptions of weeklies as not-with-partner events. Perhaps not strictly not-with-partner, but default without.
"Couples" puts everybody in involuntary performance mode. It starts super harmless, the "and" element (the side in a couple that came along) having a natural desire to be good with the friends of their partner (the "and" side is prone to greatly overestimate the depth of the relationship that lead to the invite!), the other side (the one that had the "link") trying to make their partner feel good with that group. So far so good, everybody does the reasonable thing, sounds super nice. But that very same thing happens within every couple, nobody in the room who isn't in "prove myself to my partner" mode. Before you know it escalates into a take-no-prisoners battle of showing off which couple functions best. It's certainly possible with couples despite all this, but there is infinitely more that could go wrong along the way.
Yeah, maybe. I never discovered the secret of sending invitations that radiated "please don't bring your partner." Brunch is, after all, an activity for mostly women and couples.
Yeah, girl's night/guy's night does come with a certain expectation, or a stigma even. And is not a brunch. In Germany we actually have an established brunch time event class that literally translates to "morning pint" and, well, your imaginations are probably spot on. The safe path to not couple-centric is usually some form of hobby which tend to lean of gender or the other. And those who defy the gender stereotype will most likely be sufficiently deep into whatever it is to not fall into couple validation mode. But hobby-type pastimes that are also inviting to the noninitiated are indeed rare.
I know that the friend I'm hanging out with will get my jokes - inside jokes, weird humor etc. Now I have to worry about an entire group, some of whom may not like my humor, and now I have to put on the 'you're in public, be brusque and minimal' anxiety filled mask, and can't open up as I would in 1-1 or 1-2 with a friend or just a couple of friends.
Now add that to other people invited who may feel the same way. Maybe they're only comfortable with that one or two friends they hang out with, and not the rest of us they don't know.
Groups aren't my thing sadly. Nor, I assume, are a thing for many young people.
This is a weird persective for me, who mostly hangs out in groups. I've never thought about having to impress each individual member of the group at once or that I should be brusque; I dont even know what that means. And we have plenty of inside jokes and weird humor.
I am firmly in GP's camp, but I think this difference has more to do with introverted vs extroverted personality types than weird vs. not weird perspectives. Some people find it hard to express themselves in group environment because group environments tend to be highly competitive for 'air time', at which introverts are at a great disadvantage.
I don't agree. I'm pretty introverted and that's one reason group environments are better. You can talk less and take a break from even paying attention more easily than 1-on-1.
>And we have plenty of inside jokes and weird humor.
You've never had a person or two in the group that was sensitive?
>I've never thought about having to impress each individual member
It's not about 'impressing everyone.' It's more about being conscious that everyone may be listening to your comments and/or judging you. This gets worse the more anxious person you are, and/or if you were an introvert.
I don't think it's a great idea to tell those people to 'get over it' either as we used to in the 80s.
When you are meeting up a large group, you aren't usually talking to everyone at all time, small clusters or 1:1 usually form and disappear naturally and organically during the time of a meetup.
Would encourage still prioritizing 1:1 time with close friends. Even if that means traveling. It's a different experience, though I agree introducing friends to other friends is usually a pleasure.
Thats an interesting take. I prefer 1:1 type of events, or maybe a small group. I just find it easier to hold a conversation that way. I don’t have too many friends, so the time factor is not an issue for me.
I think 1:1 is best for close friends who you have a strong connection with, and groups are better for more casual friends. You can have a group hangout with people who in 1:1 format you'd struggle to converse with. Personally I don't have any of those friends anymore so I don't do group hangouts.
I can relate. For a lot of people, "friends" is someone you might find yourself sitting with at the same table at a group dinner or playing the same board game with a bunch of other people. But meet up with them one on one and you will quickly run out of things to talk about.
An introverts nightmare is to meet random folks along with other and without a purpose.Call a spade a spade, its a group event and that itself is even harder than 1-1 hang.
What you describe is social anxiety, not introversion.
Introverted people without social anxiety exist. I'm one of them. I have no fear of meeting new people and the like, but social situations exhaust me more quickly than others and I need alone-time to recharge.
In addition, hangouts are just more fun with more people
Love everything you said.
Additionally: when you're hanging out in a group, you avoid those awkward situations where some people (or their partners!) might be wondering if it was a potential "date" kind of situation.
Groups is an important point I think, preferably based on a common interest. I'm fortunate in that I'm a tabletop gamer, and as it's an inherently social activity I've always been able to find a roleplaying games group or club wherever I've moved.
I'd be interested if there are any other hobbies or interests that have a similar built in social component?
Poker! I had an awesome group of poker friends in SF, maybe 10-12 of us who'd play regularly, although on any given weekend it'd only be 4-8 who'd show up. We'd sit around a table playing poker for hours and hours, and after half a year, we were pretty close!
An an introvert I have a different experience. When I am with a larger group, people start talking to each other about subjects that don't really interest me, and I tend to switch to listening mode, not interacting much with anyone. I can converse for hours with one person, however.
There's an easy lifehack to get around it: host parties and introduce your friends to one another. I've done it multiple times in the past, and there's at least two married couples that I've introduced to each other.
"...things played out exactly as described by the article -- some of them hit it off, became friends with each other, and started initiating invites and events without me"
This is ultimately what I discovered. Friends with groups are superficial, you really only have one or two real friends but the superficial friendships formed with large groups is actually more important for your mental health simply because humans are designed to live and interact this way.
Historically, humans lived in tribal groups where they're in constant contact with a large but cohesive group of people. So in terms of anthropology this is the more natural way.
There's nothing wrong with having meaningful 1-on-1 connections. But how many of those can you really have in your life, simultaneously?
Read the other comments on this article, and there are so many men in their 30s, 40s, 50s+ saying that they have a partner, a sibling or two, and 0-2 friends, and that's enough, they feel saturated and don't want anymore friends. In my opinion, this is because they're treating every relationship as if it has to be the highest level of meaningful 1-on-1 connection.
I'm super duper close to my brother, my girlfriend, my mom, and to one high school buddy of mine, to the point where we talk for hours a week, every week. Beyond that, I have lots of friends, literally several dozen friends, many of whom I absolutely love, and who I've gotten super vulnerable with, who feel comfortable dropping by unannounced. But I don't make a big deal out of needing to hang out with them 1-on-1 all the time.
It is. OP probably isn't thinking(or cares about, if I were to be cynical) about the people in the group who are peer-pressured into joining (by some of their other 'friends' probably) and are just anxious/awkward throughout but can't/don't want to say anything.
I haven't experienced anyone in my friend group being pressured by others to join into group activities, and I'm pretty perceptive about interpersonal issues.
More commonly what I've seen happen is occasionally two people I'm friends with don't get along with each other, and have negative feelings coming to events/hangs where the other person will be there.
I'm talkative, outgoing and pretty funny in real life. I think I can say that people generally enjoy my company.
But I only have about three friends, and I see them maybe four times a year.
I really get along with my coworkers and enjoy their company at work. My wife thinks I should make more friends.
But the truth is (and I suspect this is pretty common with HN'ers), I don't want more friends!
Because in addition to those three friends, there's siblings, siblings-in-law, husbands of siblings-in-law, parents, parents-in-law, cousins, my wife's friends, my wife's friends' husbands, etc etc. And they all wanna see you!
That, plus of course spending time with my lovely wife/daughter (which I love to do), leaves not much alone-time to explore all the awesome stuff you can do in this world. Play guitar. Read a great piece of literature. Learn to draw. Learn Blender. Build some furniture. Grow a fruit tree. Grow five fruit trees. Keep a hot compost pile (more amazing to see than you'd think). Write a shitty piece of music. Learn to weld. Lift weights. Run.
There's just so much great stuff to do. I like people, they're great. But I guard my alone-time like a precious gemstone.
Same sentiment exactly. Not to sound rude, but I don't -want- more friends, and it feels bad rejecting people who reach out. I already feel like there aren't enough hours in a day, and selfishly want to hoard my time to myself.
My wife and I are polar opposites in that regard. She can never seem to have enough friends, and they talk often. I think one big difference is how people are with nothingness. Because no matter how busy our day is, there's always periods of downtime...on a bus, on a walk, before bed, etc.
For example, I could sit in a chair and stare at nothing for a long time and not get bored. Mind always wondering, planning, thinking. She on the other hand gets bored and stir crazy in short order. And having people to reach out to chat with is a good cure for that.
I'm not suggesting one is better than the other, of course, just another difference in people.
All of that is to say, people like us who at least -say- we don't want more friends make it harder for people seeking, by removing ourselves from the pool so to speak. And I'd imagine between marriages, kids, work, etc... there's a lot of us like that.
We introverts have an easy life with ourselves, completely at peace with oneself, never bored. Extroverts dread this, they need external stimulus to feel alive, alone they get bored and depressed quickly. Hand in hand with that go things like imagination, alone you simply have much more time to train it.
As I grew up, I realized how stupid and immature it is to try to blend with the rest of the crowd, where extroverts naturally stick out and introverts feel like they are doing something wrong and should emulate more visible ones. Embrace yourself as you are, focus on aspects you don't like yourself but enjoy the rest, it can be a real strength if you use it well.
Friends and family are one aspect of it, but also how you approach hobbies, traveling etc. Ie my extroverty boss can't simply go to gym, he has to go with some friend. So he goes rarely and he sucks in it. Bunch of friends simply can't travel alone, while I repeatedly explained to them that ie backpacking around the world alone is extremely positive and character-building experience that can't be achieved in any other way. So eventually one of them went, but for 2 weeks only to effin' Singapore and not a step further, to hang out with former colleague for 2 weeks. While having amazing places to keep discovering all around him, or ie jumping on a plane to Bali/Lombok/Gili islands for a week.
I remember at some point (as an introvert) my mental model of extroverts flipped and I suddenly began to see them not as super humans but almost like disabled people. Unable to function independently because of a severe deficit in their mental makeup that makes them unable to sustain happiness without supplementary support from presence of other individuals. I still envy them in certain ways but now I have a much more balanced view of it than when I was younger and I really felt like something was wrong with me.
Unless you mean that you eventually grew out of the view that extroverts “suffer from severe deficit in their mental makeup”, I wouldn’t call your position “balanced” at all. You’ve just swung from one extreme to another.
I don’t know you, but I have a feeling that you’ll eventually come to understand “extroverts” better than this.
> Ie my extroverty boss can't simply go to gym, he has to go with some friend
I would venture to suggest even that your boss can't simply go to the gym because he doesn't actually want to go to the gym. He wants to socialise inside a gym.
One thing I learned from reading Jung and not just the MBTI stuff based on his work is his core distinction between introversion and extroversion:
Introverts have an inner model of the world. Extroverts rely directly on the world.
It doesn’t mean that extroverts like people more or that introverts necessarily prefer being alone. It’s just that for extroverts, when nothing external is happening it’s like a little death. And for introverts, we need down time to reconcile our inner model with all of the day’s external stimulation.
But certainly extroverts must have an inner model world, otherwise how can they have a System 2 or do any kind of analytical thinking? Or is it that they do have one but only engage it when actively trying to solve a problem?
This definition of introvert seems closer to the term "need for cognition".
Not OP but I really enjoyed Jung's: Memories, Dreams, and Reflections. I haven't read any of the rest of his work so I really can't say if this is the best place to start with him but being totally new to Jung, I took a lot away from this book. The book touches on many of his theories and gives you an idea of the arc of his life which is nice but also provides great insight into Jung's inner world which is what I found most fascinating about the book. I've never read anything else quite like it.
I believe the book introducing his theory of introversion/extraversion was Psychological Types based on his own clinical research. It's a theory, not a law.. :-)
There's a lot of people I like quite a lot, and significant obligatory-connections about. But gee man, I'd trade in a ton of these connections of solid friends/relations for people whose values I can more clearly recognize & that reflect my own obsessive geek interests than I could comfortably admit in real life. The really good people are not in high supply.
I find again and again a real & immediate need to work hard to connect the very good folk, to get those with deep interests talking. Many just bow out to the mundane. So be it for them, but it's a loss to see very high intellectual potential just inundate itself among the norm.
I sort of agree. I don't want a larger number of friends, but I do crave having deep relationships with people that (currently) I don't really have.
Those infrequent hangs where it's primarily a catch-up and then go about your daily routine are OK, but unsatisfying. Like you, I have a handful of those friends that I catch up with and I care about them, but they're not really part of my day-to-day life.
What I want (and miss) are deeper relationships where I see / communicate with someone often and have strong shared interests. There were a few periods where I had those level of friendships and it was really great. For instance, about 10 years ago I was part of an art group that met at least once and usually twice a week in the evenings. I was close to a few of those people, and it felt great. Like family.
Since then the group broke up, a few people took up new interests, and one of my closer friends in the group passed. (Fuck cancer.) I moved, got married and while I love my family I have no tight, close relationships that hit that same level. Finding the same kind of friends and dynamic is very, very hard. Sucks.
I have met a few guys who wanted to strike up a friendship. I only have room in my outer orbit, unfortunately. This is even after some friends moved further out. I would like more room in my life for Me, not other people.
The reason that I've lost so many friendships in the past decade is exactly what you're saying: friendships are not a priority for the average person who is gainfully employed, married with kids, maybe has pets, and also has social obligations to their relatives.
For someone in your position, maintaining friendships is always going to be the lowest priority item, on a neverending list of responsibilities and social expectations.
That's one thing that frustrates me about American society. People who are married with kids are insanely busy, with a robust and built-in social network, whether it's through interactions with relatives, or even making friends with other parents through sporting events, etc.
It's tough for the rest of us. Obviously there is no quick fix to this problem, but for now I'm able to fill some social needs through meetups and other social events. I'll probably also get a pet eventually.
> People who are married with kids are insanely busy, with a robust and built-in social network, whether it's through interactions with relatives, or even making friends with other parents through sporting events, etc.
Grass is always greener on the other side, and busy does not mean someone has friends.
That's one thing that frustrates me about American society.
I see nothing particularly American about that - all you've described happens in all 3 countries I lived in (Israel, Austria & Germany) and I'm sure this is pretty usual world-wide.
If you get a dog and walk it or take it to the dog park you will meet people there.
There's also group training classes like basic obedience and agility.
Be warned though, dogs, in general, require a lot of attention and some even need jobs.
My old friends and I share a common history that goes way back. We were dumb teens in the 70's and 80's and so have a shared experience of those decades and that stupid shit we did.
We act as foils for one another — how one friend turned out differently than another while coming from the same background.
And also, and more importantly as we age, old friends remind us that we have more in common despite those ways in which we turned out differently. Money and status fall by the wayside when you get past 50.
I think this is the answer for me. You kind of want friends, but at the same time you don't want to have to put any obligations or effort in and definitely don't want to feel forced to hang out with them.
I think we want the kind of friends who would be fine with a quarterly meetup for a fun activity, and little contact or obligation outside of that time.
The article is right that intentionality in relationships is critical. I think it's a commonly romanticized view that relationships shouldn't feel like "work" if they're good relationships, but I think that view does a disservice to the effort that goes into building a deep and fulfilling connection. Lifelong connections don't happen by accident.
I also agree with csallen's comment. Introducing my friends to each other was one of my projects for last year and its made my whole world closer and more convenient. Now if I ever want to see a movie, have a day in the park, have a dinner I know I can make a general invitation and whoever is free and interested can show up and, because they already know each other, everyone will have a great time.
If you trust your friends to see in each other (or at least respect) what you see in each of them individually and if they're mature adults, there should be no issue with introducing people to each other. This practice has been a good way for me to re-examine some of my own unconscious biases about which of my friends would get along with one another based on superficial qualities (such as their occupations or backgrounds) and I've been pleasantly surprised by the friendships that have blossomed out of the introductions I've made.
As a side note, I still identify as an introvert and still get the most fulfillment out of 1:1 conversations. I don't think you need to be an extrovert to hang out in groups or be the social glue in your world. I was inspired to start introducing friends to one another because I realized how grateful I was - as an introvert - when I first moved to a new city and one of the friends I made was super welcoming and inclusive with their friends. It made me want to serve in that role myself and I'm so glad I got over my shyness and anxiety. I think if you approach adult relationships with intentionality you'll often be surprised by how receptive people are - I find most people have a desire to make new friends, but they're often afraid to take the first initiative.
> it's a commonly romanticized view that relationships shouldn't feel like "work" if they're good relationships
But I've already got a job and other life chores to deal with day in and day out that are stressful and exhausting. What's the point of friendship if it's just more of the same?
Sometimes I do think I want friends. Then I read threads like this and I'm not so sure.
A lesson I wish I'd learned sooner is to always reach out to people whenever you think about them. I used to worry I'd just be annoying, but I think it's a critical part of staying connected with people. And if they find it annoying then there probably wasn't much of a friendship anyway.
It can feel sad to always have to be the one initiating communication though. And to always feel like you have to hold back because you're being too much.
Oh how very true. I’m going through at this very moment. As a dad(of a 4 year old), having moved to a new city during COVID, it has been a struggle to find friends. Although I do attend a few meet-ups every now and then, play tennis in a group, take Dutch classes, I just could not meet anyone often enough to become friends with.
Whenever I try to organise something to hangout, it’s a nightmare to find a time that works for most. Often a couple of months away.
The anxiety of “do they think I come off too weird trying to force them to be a friend” is very real.
I wish there was a commonly used app like Tinder with explicit intentions of making friends, hanging out with a wider user base than one-off local apps which is dominated by a handful of people.
Trying to schedule things with people gets harder with each new element. So I usually schedule with my best friends (3 people) and just let the rest know about it: if they can join, cool, if they can't, there's always next time.
But I've disconnected from some people who are really bad at this, eg asking for lots of changes and rarely taking initiatives. I'm an introvert and reaching out to distant friends feels weird to me, even if it happens the conversation doesn't flow.
(but one thing that helps me is pushing myself to thinking out loud, instead of being insecure of what to talk about. Weird topics sometimes make the best chats)
School may help as your child gets older. We've lost touch with a lot of people we knew that way--they moved or their kids left the school. But we knew a lot of people that way.
For moms there is the Peanut app (https://www.peanut-app.io/) which my wife has had a lot of success with setting up playdates. Doesn't appear that there is something similar for Dads, though.
I tried this at one point and it was a bad experience. It was mostly gay men. While I'm not against being friends with anyone who is gay, I very much got the feeling most people on there were looking for something different than I was.
I’ve used it and met some relatively normal (and straight) dudes. You’re right, the majority of the men using it are gay, and often fairly predatory with their intentions, but if you’re discerning you’re able to find folks there to hang out, not hook up.
This is why bolting on a "friends" feature on a dating app wouldnt work. It must be a solely dedicated place with explicit purpose of making friends based on interests to remove the anxiety of "What would they think if I said this?"
The article does not mention how immigrants can make friends. Not all but most natives treat immigrants as outsiders. I get it that you are more likely to be friends with someone who is similar to you. If it was difficult for a city girl to make friends with people who look like her but grew up in a different location, I can't even imagine how difficult it must be for immigrants who don't look the same, have a different accent and grew up in a different culture. People living in big cities like NY, San Francisco may have a few friends from a different country but that is not representative of the entire population of immigrants. Also, I like to think that the nature of friendships is entirely different depending on where you grew up. The North American definition of a friend is very different from an Indian definition of a friend. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's difficult enough to start over in a new country all by yourself and making friends is even more difficult than that.
I live in germany and work in an international company. I am the only german on my team. A lot of the younger colleagues blame their difficulties on making friends on german racism and stay in their expat circles, but the truth is: it's hard for everyone here.
I'm an expat (immigrant?) in Germany. IME expat circles are a problem in itself. People who cling to them end up leaving much quicker than people who mingle with natives, or mingle with people from other nationalities. Not only you don't make long-term friends in those circles (because people are constantly leaving the country), but there's a lot of negativity and shit talking. You need to at least make an attempt to adapt, and those circles can be a replacement to that.
it mirrors a bit the experience I had in university with foreign students/phd students. Some immigrants are only friends with immigrants from the same country and it was surprising to hear that after spending years (sometimes BSc/Msc/Phd or Work) they are completely unable to say a single word in german, have no german friends etc. Usually very unapproachable und uncomfortable to talk to.
Others with mixed groups of friends were way more approachable, I was surprised by some how well they are able to speak the language after just a few years.
I live in a very international big German city, so we have plenty of expats. But what I notice is that they are generally shy to approach others, initiating contact or driving the conversation actively. They also tend to stick together in expat groups. So it's a turn off for me if I have to carry the conversation. It's easy to blame the people for shrugging off immigrants but I feel it's their duty to check the local concepts and expectations for communication and relationships.
I also feel that this is generally only true for non-western immigrants. Never had any problems with aussies or americans.
I also agree that making friends is very hard in Germany, but absolutely doable. My life hack: use "Neu in $city" facebook groups, go to boulder gyms and be open minded, smile and take initiative. Talk to people! And then build groups, as mentioned in the top comment (atm).
Well, germany seems to be rather special. I already know two couples personally that moved from my home country to germany, only to come back after some years again. They both tell the same story: It was almost impossible to find friends, and the outright hostility against foreigners can be felt.
I moved from Korea to NZ. And I’m recently trying out Japan. I think it can be _easier_ to make friends as an immigrant that looks different (as long as you can speak their language) as there will always be people who are interested in different cultures.
Though I have found that it can be quite hard to become close friends but it’s definitely possible.
Language is a major factor, yes. Another factor I think is whether you come from a “welcomed” country. Under the current chaotic world order, it’s not hard to come up with a few countries that are not welcomed almost anywhere (Disclaimer: I come from one of them).
But still, start with some people that are close with you, either at work or in private, and try to expand that circle to larger / more diverse groups. The rule of making friends still apply for immigrants, it’s just a bit harder than natives.
I am honestly curious, what countries do you refer to when you say not-welcomed countries? The first thing that came to mind was Germany, but I am guessing you were not talking about that...
Never forget that hostilities towards people from specific countries is a rather subjective phenomenon. What is religion to one person, is completely unacceptable to others.
There's still a lot of hatred towards Middle Eastern people because 'they're all terrorists', although it seems to me that has died down a bit. From the posts of a local Arab woman I'm friends with on Facebook, it still seems pretty bad here, just not quite as blatant anymore.
Chinese hate ramped up again since 2020, with all the talk about them being the enemy of the US on the right and many people blaming the country for Covid-19.
And while I think most people try not to hold anything against the Russian people for the Russian invasion of Ukraine, (especially Russians that have left the country), there will quite a few that won't. I can imagine if you're Ukranian you probably will struggle to be friendly with any Russian right now, for example.
in china for example white people are very welcome, black people not so much.
in europe white people can blend in, so even if they are not welcome they will not be rejected. but people that look different and have a different culture are looked upon suspiciously.
not everyone is doing this of course, it's very subtle, and fortunately there are also open minded people
> Another factor I think is whether you come from a “welcomed” country.
Definitely a factor. My wife is not Asian and she gets way more opportunities than me to make friends in Japan, though it is a double edged sword as being treated differently can get really annoying after a while.
> as being treated differently can get really annoying after a while
Yes, I can relate. I am blind, and 90% of all the interactions I have with strangers in public spaces are drenched in pity and patronisation. Being special sucks!
I would be very interested in hearing/reading more about the Indian definition of a friend VS North American. I've seen what you describe, but for me, I personally relish the opportunity to be the person someone calls when they need help, and also to show someone what I enjoy about a city. I'm much less good at just hanging out or reaching out.
For what it's worth, I lived for a while in Russia and friendship is different there, too.
as I noticed,the people that from China are always tend to hang on with same culture and the same language,many of them,even have much more effect in social media, are still only in the mandarin speaker group
it's easier, but for me it defeats the purpose of visiting or living in a different country. so i prefer to stay away from expat groups. fortunately the local linux user groups or other tech groups in the places i have been to had more locals or a mix of locals and foreigners, and i was able to make a few very good local friends that way.
I'm a nomad travelling solo so it's crucial for me to be good at socialising. I now consider myself to be quite social and can gel with anyone.
Most of the friendships happen over some common interest or activity like playing sports, dancing, seminars, group tours, etc. If you can get into some hobby or activity that involves other people (common interest) then it is much easy to strike conversations (mutual interest) and make friendships. However, If you can't even start a conversation or keep the conversation flowing naturally then that's a personal issue.
Some tips:
- Smile when you talk. Smile in general if you could.
- Asking questions is the fundamental of converting strangers to friends. Asking question means getting to know person. Ask questions that you are curious about otherwise you gonna bore yourself as well as the person. Personal questions work wonders.
- While travelling I realised most people are not that social and feel awkward starting a conversation with a stranger. I always assume that it's my responsibility to start the conversation so I lead. And, once the conversation starts flowing I see that the other person is actually friendly and interested to know about me as well.
Asking questions is a huge one. I know because I'm so bad at it that I notice how good it would be, I suspect that there's another stripe of awareness at the other end of the spectrum, with a huge gap in between of people who are sufficiently good at it to not notice, but could do better with some awareness.
Most strangers starting conversations with me turn out to be Herbalife peddlers, beggars and similar. So the natural instinct is to move away as fast as possible.
I will say this, for optimism, I think we've turned a corner post-covid.
Now there is a population of adults who are admitting out loud that they are lonely and want to make friends and are willing put in the effort and make the compromises for that to happen.
This past weekend there was some great new TV on and my wife and I had had long work weeks, but we made a point to get out of the house and at least watch TV in a bar. When we met people we actually took the initiative to look them up on social media and followed them.
We were working on this in 2019 and people were put off by it or found it sad. Now people are ready and it's really exciting to me. I think we have the opportunity to build new social structures to replace the ones that have been eroding for several decades.
I've moved 4 times in my adult life. The two biggest issues I've had with making friends is the lack of a gathering place for like minded people, and being accepted by existing cliques.
If you don't drink, go to church, or have kids, it is damned hard to find a place to hang out and meet other 30-40 year olds.
I've never made any friends at a "gathering place". I think most people show up to bars, restaurants, or anything like that with people they already know.
Apart from meeting friends through existing friends (the "acquire your second million first" problem), by the far the best (if not only) way I've found to make friends is through shared-interest clubs.
If you show up frequently to events where you have shared interests, it becomes very likely that you'll make friends with some of the other regulars.
Bonus points if:
- it's not too big a group (more chance of interaction)
- shared exercise, like a sports group (endorphins help with bonding)
- involves weekends or other trips away (living together briefly helps a lot)
- niche interest (small network)
- completing tasks together (work also counts here)
> I've never made any friends at a "gathering place". I think most people show up to bars, restaurants, or anything like that with people they already know.
It's probably my prior military force-learned charisma but I almost exclusively go to bars alone and almost always make a friend or two when I'm out. I don't like going to bars with other people often, they can meet me there but if I'm expected to only interact with one person I feel like I'm babysitting and have to keep them entertained whereas I'm a social butterfly and bounce around to a number of different people at bars alone.
But I will say I'm probably more uncommon than people who come in groups, especially in my new city that has less transplants- it's hard to break into friend groups when they've known one another for 5-10-20+ years.
Problem with bar friends is you might not have any shared interests aside from going out and drinking, movies, simple stuff vs your other options. And so you might not ever become closer friends than bar-buds.
Yeah, I've found it fairly easy to talk to people at bars and I'm not even a particularly social person. The type of bar matters a lot though. Some are too loud and crowded to meet people at. The friendship are superficial, at least for me, but you often hear some funny stories.
It’s hard if you do those things, too. I had my best luck with sports and volunteerism. Since I have kids, coaching youth sports has also been a great way to develop a group.
this really sounds like a fun and promising way to make friends. I've seen it happen at universities with "tandem" partners (italian comes to germany and wants to learn german, the german wants to learn italian), but they usually leave after the exchange.
Anecdotal, but if you're looking for friends as an adult you should get a bicycle. I've moved 3 times in my adult life, and have made a solid group of friends each time by signing up for group rides, etc. Ages range from late twenties to seventies. You can usually find these on social media or by talking to a nearby bike shop.
This doesn't just apply to urban centers either. Gravel and mountain biking is huge, and generally the shops in your area will be catered to the most popular kind of biking.
As an adult (I'm 53) I've managed to make lasting friends in only two contexts:
1. My local arts community, where I've served as a board member and patron for many small organizations; and
2. Cycling. I'm a big roadie, but I dabble in gravel -- primarily for social reasons. This has actually been a larger source of friends than the theater stuff, but both have been big. The bonus with cycling is that you kill two birds with one stone: you exercise AND friends in the same activity!
Now, I'm sure that one could abstract these two things out to "volunteering" and "local sports," but I feel like cycling in particular is great for this.
> The bonus with cycling is that you kill two birds with one stone: you exercise AND friends in the same activity!
Make that three birds because you can travel to places!
One of my favorite things to do in the summer is ride with friends to the city center and grab some food, maybe a drink, and hang out before riding back. It's a leisurely ride on multi-use paths through parks, so even people that aren't comfortable or new to biking are willing to do it and you get to see cool parts of the city that aren't as accessible in a car, bus, or train.
This is very subjective, but cycling does not work for me in this context.
Obviously, everyone has their own goals when getting outside on a bike, from pure leasure/entertainment to hard fitness/training sessions. I'm somewhat in between closer to training camp.
Riding for 25 minutes casually, then getting a beer and talk for an hour, then riding another 20 minutes home is not for me. But riding with the training group is problematic too - your fitness level matters. If the group rides 26 kph average for 120 km but you only can give 23 - you are going to be left behind. Dropping and continuing solo or turning earlier - I was on the receiving end of that multiple times.
Eventually you realize most optimal trainings are done solo and they are kind of meditative and enjoyable when silent. And high exertion does not allow you to talk anyway.
OneWheel group rides, Bike group rides, Motorcycle group rides, plenty of opportunity. Mountain Biking is hit or miss, there are some snobs in that sport, road cycling as well, but for the most part all of these are great options to get outside and find like-minded people.
Maker groups, meet ups, etc for those not physically inclined. Book clubs, music clubs, and things exist. I met some really good friends from D&D groups and OneWheel rides.
The only reason I have friends as a mid 30's is because of mountain biking. At least where I am, the advocacy groups schedule lots of group activities - rides for all skill levels, trail building days, bi-annual meetups. And folks you meet when riding are usually friendly - I've met several riding buddies throughout the years just due to being on the same trails at the same time.
My hunch is that it has something to do with doing/accomplishing something "hard" together. I'm also guessing that the harder it is, the more bonding automatic bonding you get.
Economics is also an underlying hidden reason behind everything. Making friends requires a lot of bandwidth. You cannot create them over a coffee or wine, it would be a multiple touch point event over 6-12 months. In low trust environments the cost of friendship goes up.
When you have to work 100 hrs a work to meet your expenses can you take out 20 hrs for friends. then another 20 for family, another 20 for kid. and then 1000 for your wife.
Inflation makes you work harder for the same amount. When everybody is working harder they don't have time. Also because they are not doing many things outside of work what will they talk about.
Rich people still find it pretty ease to make friends. The parallel processing of earning money, family and friends is really hard and eventually will take your stress higher levels than lower.
I have to actively avoid getting invites from people and feel bad when I refuse.
I’m a native and if I travel to a new city I can make friends in a jiffy.
I’m a 28 yo male and still not choosing to commit to marriage and this argument about finding friends later scares me at times. Is it really true? Does the depth of connection vary?
I also was in Germany about half the year in 22 and for sure it’s not as easy there. Being a part of a group is for sure easier for example in one of the hacker spaces. And I got 1 invite to eat dinner at what I can call a friend’s place.
It is likely a function of density. India is particularly heavily populated and their cities are very dense.
Suburbia and lower-density neighbourhoods will necessarily reduce the number of chance encounters, and thus possibilities to make friends. In many developed nations the only places to "be social" can often also be places in which you can only participate in through the lens of commercialism (e.g. going to a sporting event, paying to play pool or darts at a bar, etc.). This is often described as the loss of the "third place." It's heavily associated with sprawl and car-centric development, but even without that there's tons of places that don't have nearby public parks or plazas that they can just go and exist in without spending money. The pretext of a place to socialize and hang out changes if you need to spend a significant amount of money to participate.
Another reason could be that having easy access to cheap digital entertainment probably reduces the number of times most people voluntarily leave their house to go be social. I know at least for myself that I can easily hole up in my home and avoid the outside world if I want to. You have to make a conscious effort to decide to go out and do social things, and that can sometimes be very difficult in tandem with my previous point about sprawl. Do I really want to drive somewhere and spend money to be social today or should I just find a new show on Netflix? A hard problem when we structure our own incentives against our desires to make more friends!
Intellectuals in south asia are just great people. Good discussions, open minded attitude (not too closed off by culture and religion), and a general distrust of the state. Just my .02
I have no friends. I moved again in the last year. I have my brother, my parents, and my wife.
It’s really hard to make good quality friends. Honestly, I couldn’t be bothered right now to invest that kind of time and effort.
I hope that changes one day, but at this rate I’ll probably make friends among the parents of my kids friends one day. I just have other priorities now. I’m content, and I have a solid marriage. It’s fine for now.
My daughter is 4 and in the last year I've started hanging out with a few other dads from her preschool. It's been fun knocking back a beer while the kids go feral. I appreciate the diversity of thought vs. spending my days talking with coworkers. It definitely takes effort on everyone's part to follow through on plans, and having a supportive spouse helps.
Go to meetup.com. Find a weekly meetup in your area that matches one of your interests (or start one). Go to that meetup every week. Within a couple months you'll be friends with the regulars. I've done this in two cities and I'm still long distance friends with the people I met in the first city. It only takes a couple hours per week and for your mental health you should be getting out for social activities anyway. Go do it now, you'll be happy that you did.
Where do you live? I’ve always seen people rave about meetup but most of the time when I’ve downloaded it’s filled mostly with scammy crap (MLM groups and similar business schemes), “entrepreneurs” trying to “network” and hyper specific demographic groups (40+ singles hiking group or whatever)
When I lived in LA I went to a beach dodgeball meetup organized by Herbalife MLM "health coaches". It was actually a rather positive experience. I biked out three mornings a week for many months, and played dodgeball and then did high intensity exercises in the sand. Afterward I would go to their gym and pay $5 for a protein shake, and socialize with an eclectic bunch of people completely unlike me. I lost 40lb, could do 100 pull ups, and I could buy the outfit off a dummy at Macy's and look good.
One girl had "dibs" on me regarding the MLM scheme. She eventually got a bit irritated that I never signed up, but I still managed to integrate myself into their social circle for a good while. I even went to one of their conferences, just out of curiosity.
A good number of the people I met were actually quite interesting, but had some unsatisfied aspect of their life. The combination of community and intense exercise was healthy for them, even if they were
spending their time futilely trying to sell supplements.
Man, I have been approached by guys like this, we have a good conversation, then they try to sell me something. The last few times someone has struck up a conversation with me out of nowhere it was to try and sell me something. I go to the gym every other day during lunch. Been doing it for years. Literally the only people that have ever talked to me were these MLM bros.
It made me feel profoundly sad the last time it happened. I don't know why really, but the fact that no one would ever talk to me unless they wanted to sell me something was just a hard thing to take.
So hearing that you hung out with these guys on purpose is fascinating to me. It all seems so contrived and artificial, but it seems you got something out of it at least. Did you end up making any real connections?
Since my experience feeling sad though I have tried to say hi and strike up conversations with strangers when it feels appropriate. People may be put off by it occasionally, but it's nice to connect with people, even if it's only briefly.
I can't say I really made any deep friendships, but they were fun "fair weather friends" to go to the bar with in my 20's. I'd say about half the people involved in that crowd were vapid. The other half were misfits desperate for a community. I myself appreciated the intense social focus on health and exercise, and the radical diversity of thought compared to my work social circle. At the time I was relatively dissatisfied with the types of projects getting dumped on me at work, and I was lonely from lack of meaningful relationships. So, it was a great way to tweak my work-life balance and avoid depression.
I think I was able to assimilate myself into their group because of my utter lack of agenda. I was as foreign to them as they were to me, but I was easy to talk to because I would offer a sympathetic ear or a witty joke rather than claim to have a lucrative nutritional solution. I also think there was some aspect of novelty to it that they enjoyed. I was the guy whose day job was making rocket ships, hanging out and taking an interest in their lives.
Here's something to keep in mind about those bros approaching you in the gym. It's a hustle, but they aren't trying to scam you. They're likely being genuine within the framework of their own life experiences. They've been taught that selling to strangers is their path to success. They are the foot soldiers in an army, following orders trickling down from ruthless generals aware the soldiers are probably going to die. When I went to that Herbalife convention, there were 2000 young people in a hotel conference hall all frantically taking notes. From my perspective, though, the speakers said nothing of substantial meaning. It was 100% affirmation. Thousands of pens writing it all down in notebooks. It was quite amazing for me to experience. If you're curious, next time someone like that approaches you at the gym, maybe give them the benefit of the doubt? Don't sign up for their MLM obviously, but don't be afraid of them either. If you're into protein shakes, throw $20 cash their way so they can move some inventory. If not, then politely decline. Either way, when you wrap up the conversation, ask them for their names again and give them a fist bump. Next time you see them in the gym, ask them for a spot, or say hi and just ask how the hustle is going. Embrace them as gym bros, and enjoy their company.
The girl that made the meetup posting was a single mother that had gotten pregnant as a teenager. She was trying to get out from being dependent on her own parents, and was focused on getting back into shape for the "bikini pageant" circuit she used to participate in. She was always friendly to me, but we had pretty much zero in common, and she obviously hoped I would join the MLM. She invited me to her birthday party and nobody talked about nutritional supplements there, so I think we were friends.
Her roommate Carlos was tall, handsome and ripped, and many of the girls in the group seemed to swoon for him. He also seemed like a genuinely friendly guy, if not a bit mysterious, and while we never had any memorable conversations, it was always nice to just quietly hang out in a dive bar on a Tuesday night and play pool or darts.
There was one guy that moved to LA to become an actor and comedian, but he worked as a waiter. When he first arrived he was pudgy and physically weak and lacked confidence. He was obsessed with one of the more seemingly vapid but gorgeous girls. She had him wrapped around her finger, but she obviously had her own eyes on Carlos. He was great entertainment when drunk, due to the self-awareness of his own mediocrity and his inherent desire to entertain. By the time I lost contact with him, he was lean and muscular, and successfully working as a Harry Potter look-a-like for hire.
There was a notably short girl who I thought had a quick wit and weird sense of humor. She seemed incapable of making any deep connections with anyone, though, because she was hung up bad on her ex-boyfriend, a guy almost twice her height. There was some overlap between my work circle and Herbalife circle at the local climbing gym, and my work friends knew that guy as "the Herbalife a-hole". He was even still driving her car around after 6 months. Hanging around at the climbing gym most days clinging on to her ex, she was a reliable bouldering buddy when I stopped by occasionally. With her suggestions I managed to complete some advanced dynamic routes that I still don't believe I was ever physically capable of.
There were some older, middle aged people always around at the beach workouts. I never interacted with them beyond pleasantries. They were the "lieutenants" of the MLM army, high enough in the organization that they were actually making some money. They would "mentor" the lower level recruits, providing the stereotypical unhealthy MLM pressure to sell-sell-sell. They were the a-holes that the climbing gym a-hole wanted to be.
There was another girl that seemed bright and interesting, perhaps even mature enough compared to the others to describe as a woman. She had the unique distinction of being the only female in that group that didn't deflect when I invited her out for a meal. It was a pleasant time, but didn't develop into anything friendship or otherwise.
When one guy joined the group, he was horribly depressed and had bandaids on his fingers from harming himself. He had a day job working on costuming for movies, and had recently had a bad experience interacting with a certain A list movie star. He had a rather peculiar hobby of producing avant garde LEGO figurine comic strips and posting them on Instagram. He was probably the most interesting person I met from that group, and we regularly chatted at gatherings. After a couple months of torturing himself with intense exercise, he seemed a lot happier and gave up his less healthy endorphin chasing habits. He had also built up a considerable Instagram following, and apparently even had some local groupies. Toward the end it all sounded pretty weird, but I was happy for him.
It's not quite true that I didn't form any strong friendships from that group. I met my friend Oliver when he showed up to one of the dodgeball games for similar reasons to why I did. We had a ton of common interests, though. We attended the same university, both worked in aerospace at the time, and both like computer games as a hobby. He was in the Air Force, now in the Space Force. He used to drive the "blue buses" on campus, and once unknowingly ripped a Prius in half while backing up without a spotter. He has three degrees, including one in performance violin. We aren't in regular contact since we're both married with kids in different parts of the country now, but we'll still get together and catch up every few years when it's convenient.
In my city, well outside the US, there are friendship groups, dating groups, pub crawl groups, single parent groups, hiking and walking groups, Unreal programming, devops etc.
You have to search a bit for what you're looking for rather than just use the default suggestions it makes from your interests.
I live in a city of about 100k people and there are a couple of groups that match my interests. If there wasn't, I would just make one, and I might make one anyway.
The idea is to make a weekly group for one of your hobbies, maybe you like to play basketball (for example sake). That way, if nobody shows up, that's fine, you were going to work on your free throws anyway. If 1 person shows up, now you can play 1-1. If 2 people show up you can play horse, etc.
Ditto. My local meetup.com is MLM, networking, pub crawls, new age mumbo jumbo, self-help/therapy, and niche demographics.
Where the hell are the normal people? Where can I find folks into morning jogs, woodworking, sailing, road trips, 3d printing, burritos, and international travel?
A while back my partner and I went out on a hike. We passed a group of people and one of them continued on with us. We were confused why she stuck with us, but tried to be friendly anyway. After a while we realized that it was a meetup group, and the lady thought we were just part of it.
Weekly meetup? Goodness! All the marginally interesting meetups in my area are monthly or less. I specifically started a twice-monthly one myself because it was so grim. (And no, I'm not very happy with my own meetup, either.)
Pretty much the only exception to the monthly cadence is hiking meetups, which in my area are dominated by retirees and midlife singles. I've tried them, I wouldn't keep trying.
From my experience, weekly is important for a couple of reasons:
1. That's the cadence that most people's life runs on. It's easier to schedule and remember something that happens every Wednesday, than every other Wednesday.
2. You actually start to feel like friends with people fairly quickly when you see them weekly. It feels like a good balance between space and closeness for strangers to start becoming friends.
Starting a meetup is hard. If there's something relatively popular or trendy with the demographic of people you're hoping to make friends with, that might be something that will attract more people to your meetup quickly (AI, board games, investing, etc).
Even if you only get 1-2 great people to become regulars, you can cancel the meetup and still meet with them every week.
I'm happier with way fewer friends. Being an adult and not being forced to interact with people who don't share much in common with me significantly improved my life.
Maybe your putting to much emphasis on good and quality and filtering them?
Like you already know friends come and go. Who cares if they're good and quality(ok to some degree... but the average person isn't immoral) As long as you can hang out and do something you should be good. They're friends, your not having a kid with them.
I think when we were younger, well me atleast, there was a huge emphasis on dont be popular, small amounts of good friends are better then having lots of friends . thats probably good advice for a ten year old struggling with self esteem. But as an adult? Who cares, be friends with everyone. If you really can't stand them, they'll be gone before you know it, just like the good ones.
Look at the five or six people closest to you. That’s where your life is going. Friends have a huge influence over how we develop as humans, it is critically important that you choose friends with whom you would be happy if you ended up like them. So I’m very picky about who I’m friends with. I can be friendly to everyone, but friends with a select few.
If someone doesn't have any longterm friends, that is a problem. You can rationalize how it's "normal" all you want, but you are missing out on something wonderful. These days too many people don't have a sense of loyalty or know how to be a friend
If you want to socialize and meet people, its a good idea to get involved in shared athletic activity:
* martial arts (MMA, BJJ, even krav maga)
* crossfit [1]
* cycling (mountain biking, road cycling)
* volleyball or surfing if you're by a beach
* even a pick up basketball game
In my opinion, doing something athletic as a group should be a mandate for everyone. There are too many benefits, physically and spiritually.
If you are hesitant or if you find yourself having a negative reaction to what I am saying, I would encourage you to contemplate why you may be thinking that.
If you are worried you are not athletic enough and feel emberrased, do not think that for a moment. I was the same - I am horribly uncoordinated and I still do stuff.
[1] Some crossfit folks call it "church," which should be telling
I'm pushing 40 and haven't had any luck with making new friends on BJJ, Crossfit or Muay Thai (currently) classes. On Crossfit the folks are a bit young and only talk about Crossfit. Muay Thay gym also feel like a bunch of disconnected people. BJJ seemed to be more around like an "homogeneous" group (older, many with kids) but I didn't stay long enough and didn't went to the soccer - aha! In Brazil you have to play soccer because thats where people can develop more personal relationships (some yelling would be awesome).
I feel like cyclists, running groups could also work for my age group, but I don't feel very inclined to those sports. I can't find a soccer group to play and I suck at it. Most people that play weekly are work colleagues or school/uni colleagues..
I second your notion that being athletic is not a requirement: the actually fit I’ve met are all extremely calm, accepting and disciplined. In the right gym/club/group, it’s an extremely rewarding experience for any body type and fitness goal. Be aware that distance based cardio groups (running, biking) will often require fitness that is above average but there are exceptions (look up a parkrun near you).
> the actually fit I’ve met are all extremely calm, accepting and disciplined.
This is the case with martial arts, especially bjj. You'll come in like a soft doughey baby, and you will get smushed for a long time, but its rewarding for a veteran practitioner to see another person struggle and do well. They want to "lift" that person up an help them, as long as the newbie is trying hard.
I want to add that in cities, social cycling is a real thing too, and a fantastic way to meet people and have fun. Many US cities have some combination of Critical Mass, bike party, queer bike rides, weekly evening social rides.
"I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!"
I’m seeing people commenting “yeah I’m uncool” and I highly doubt it.
For me, personally, problem is that I can only relate in context. If I leave the context - poof - it’s gone. And I feel it’s very similar with other people too.
We work, we communicate a lot and build relation. Someone moves on, switches the context and it’s gone.
The same with gaming or sports or anything.
Few more closer friends I have are closer most likely because they reach out out of the blue on the IM with joke or something, completely contextless.
I have some ideas and made some experiments as well but not many people decide to go in as relations require energy we often don’t have. Times are very busy for all of us.
And yet we need to remember that loneliness is literally killing men:
The fact that context matters so much makes it hard to avoid concluding that such relationships are not friendships in any sense of the word, they're just pleasantries to make the other parts of the context - the reason why you're in whatever situation - go more smoothly. Agreeableness. More agreeable with some people than others, sure, but not friends.
However I do have an autistic trait that makes me forget easily people and things without context. My spouse regularly nags me to touch base with family as I just have my attention elsewhere. Tried various “friend managers” but they didn’t work as I rather pursue software than people.
E.g. I had multi year relationship when I gamed. I stopped gaming as much and those relationships deteriorated. I am godfather of son of a friend with whom I studied. Since we graduated we met twice or thrice.
And I know many people that go like that. Men’s friendships usually evolve around “do” rather than “discuss”. If there’s no shared “do” they fade away. Add above trait (which isn’t THAT uncommon) and building long term contextless relationship is very difficult.
I agree. When it comes to friends, I don't think I've ever made one because of a specific "cool" trait they had. People like each other because they are generally "cool", and what's cool can mean different things to different people. Most of the time, people will like you for merely being receptive, reciprocal, and empathetic. You don't need to have interesting hobbies or lots of knowledge in history, or romantic success, or whatever. While those can certainly make a person more interesting, it can be surprising how little they actually matter.
On the other hand, I do understand where people are coming from when they conclude that their lack of friends must be a result of being "uncool." Although what I just said was spoken with sincerity, I still can't help but wonder why people seem to like me. I'm a pretty lousy storyteller, I've only ever visited 2 other countries, my hobbies are overly intellectual, I don't play many video games or watch any shows that are in vogue, and even if I manage to come up with a funny joke I always screw up the delivery. Yet I'm still liked.
The feeling of lacking coolness, I think, probably stems from a lack of self esteem induced from childhood or adolescence. If I didn't have such a hard time as a kid, being awkward and weird, maybe my likability wouldn't be constantly in question even as an otherwise confident adult. My early experiences cemented in my mind that I'm fundamentally an outsider and not cool. The irony is that those "cool" people from my childhood either ended up as average joes and janes, or became the very antithesis of cool.
I feel like it has more to do with having a surplus of time and resources.
When you're in school, you have more time to hang out with people and every interaction isn't tainted by the reality of having to compete over limited resources.
As an adult, you are responsible for acquiring your own resources so every relationship is tainted by economic competition. I suspect that rich people have more friends for this reason; they have more surplus so they're not constantly (subconsciously) thinking about how to exact resources from everyone around them; it's probably also why rich people feel uncomfortable being friends with non-rich people.
Nobody wants to be seen as a resource. Yet when you are truly deprived of resources, you can't help but see everything and everyone as a resource first and foremost. You need to have your basic needs met and your anxiety levels within tolerable range to see beyond that.
The reality is that, during a bad famine, people will start subconsciously seeing their friends as a potential meal. It's not an ideal foundation for a friendship. In this case (for most of us), the problem is not famine, but there is a strong desire to escape the constant anxiety of having to work insanely hard just to make ends meet which has a similar effect on friendships.
In communist countries, I suspect that regular people form strong friendships because there are no good mechanisms to extract resources from each other and they have their basic needs taken care of anyway (aside from the occasional famine). Citizens are treated like children. In North Korea, many adult women hold hands. That's unthinkable in a capitalist society. That level of friendship is simply unattainable to the kinds of resource-oriented people who tend to succeed at capitalism. But at least if you do have a lot of surplus resources, being resource-oriented isn't as much of a problem.
It's hard to be both resource-oriented and poor, then you can't have any friends. Sadly, capitalism forces us to become resource-oriented, even if it is against our nature.
> I suspect that rich people have more friends for this reason; they have more surplus so they're not constantly (subconsciously) thinking about how to exact resources from everyone around them;
> Two studies using large, nationally representative samples of Americans (N = 118,026) and different measures of social contact showed that higher household income was associated with less time spent socializing with others (Studies 1 and 2) and more time spent alone (Study 2)
If you want real intellectual honesty (and not just PR). How many millions have died due to famines caused by globalized capitalism? Just because they die in far-flung lands (e.g. Africa) and not on your doorstep doesn't make it better; it makes it worse IMO. Capitalism is really good at hiding its dirty deeds and covering them up with public relations (PR) narratives to divert attention (PR itself being a euphemism for propaganda), that's why I advocate for small-scale anarcho-capitalism as opposed to global-scale capitalism. The problem with global scale capitalism is that it hides its evils behind layers upon layers of complexity, misdirection and diffused harm; it starts wars to sell weapons, sets up debt traps when it's time to rebuild (enslaving populations of entire countries to servicing foreign debts), it erodes democracies, corrupts politicians, corrupts monetary systems, undermines social contracts, etc...
Communism is not as bad as capitalists claim (relatively speaking). There are pros and cons. Though I think any social system implemented uniformly on a national or, worse, global scale is potentially very dangerous and harmful towards most of its participants.
Adult same-sex hand-holding in capitalist countries generally does not happen outside of sexual relationships.
> In communist countries, I suspect that regular people form strong friendships because there are no good mechanisms to extract resources from each other
It is the opposite. If money doesn't buy you anything, it is knowing people that buys you everything. Look up the meaning of the word "блат".
> capitalism forces us to become resource-oriented
This doesn't ring true, if only for the simple reason that even sub-median wealth people are now much more materially wealthy than, say, a thousand years ago, even two hundred years ago or less.
The need for two income is a huge time & energy drain for families, making it difficult to socialize. There was a post-WW2 sweet spot where you could live well on one income, and you didn't have to have many years of education. The US peace dividend was part of it, but I think that regulations that limit the housing supply and cause inflation are a major impetus for people working more to keep up their lifestyle.
I’d like one really close friend who I see often and a couple acquaintances who I can hang with from time to time. I had this about 10 years ago and it’s since left my life entirely. It mostly surrounded my work life, but it seems like as soon as I switched jobs, it all started to fall apart.
I think convenience plays a huge role in all of this, honestly. I have kids and a partner now and I work from home. If I want to see anyone recreationally, it has to be planned and that just sucks. It honestly takes all the fun out of it.
If there’s one drawback to the working from home shift, it has to be this. I really miss having any kind of social life.
Yes, yes you are uncool. You are probably a nerd who likes to talk about topics of interest, rather than people and social matters.
Nerds are much more interesting, really. They’ve spent enough time on things they are obsessed about to have something to discuss. It’s not all “kids, schooling, housing, weather”. My favourite thing is to meet a nerd with an obsession outside of my own, as there is so much to learn.
Those will automatically not be my friends. Anyone who cares about sports (especially televised) or celebrities can go sit somewhere else. Or religion. Helps immensely with filtering as it usually is one of the first things you find out.
Talking nerd stuff is nicer and as such I only have nerds as friends and I married one, but there is no shortage of them. So far I made friends at any age (I am in my 50s).
As someone who had few male friends as a kid I’ve put a priority on them as an adult.
The key is to “water” it like a plant. If you don’t reach out for too long it becomes weird.
A blessing I’ve had is a regular Tuesday night happy hour, I’ve been seeing the same guys for beers on Tuesday for over 13 years now. We’re all best friends. I also have a few other buddies to grab beers with and a few friends who live far away, but I make sure I message them regularly.
Without these friends my life would be much emptier. As guys we think we don’t need friends, but it’s a huge factor to happiness.
(Or maybe not surprised, since there is a vocal minority on this board that would rather just receive work assignments on a folded piece of paper shoved under their door and never interact with coworkers.)
I have dedicated the last 1.5 years of my life to finding "my people." As in, I literally quit my job and started joining meetups, hikes, groups, maker spaces, attending events, organizing my own, and just hanging out in public all the time.
Long story short, I am no better off socially than I was 1.5 years ago. I am looking for work again so I can make work friends.
I've become acquainted with a handful of people. Despite a lot of probing and chatting, I haven't clicked with anyone.
In sum, I consider the last 1.5 years of my life time mostly wasted. I should have either kept trying to make closer friends through work or done something more radical than just trying to be more social.
I don't have any friends. I'm almost 40 and haven't had any friends since about 13. Each year since then I've averaged "going out" between 3 to 5 times per year for a "social thing".
I think about wanting friends all the time. But then I think I don't really have anything of value to add to a friendship. I guess I have a low opinion of myself. When I think about what I'd hope for a friendship to be, I just don't know. Meet once a week for a beer? I'm not an interesting person and don't have hobbies.
I do dream about getting married. And I have fear that the imagined wife would want a wedding, and I'd have no best man or groomsmen.
This is cliche and is much easier said than done, but try to ditch the low opinion of yourself, stop the analysis and negativity about how much value you would bring. And try to stop worrying too much about what other people think. Don't set out trying to find friends, set out finding something enjoyable or worthwhile to do that involve other people.
Find some hobbies or get interested in something, and join a social group related to it. Or join a volunteer group or two.
I relate hard to your last point. It's something I have repeatedly worried about now and again for the last 15 years. I'll be getting married and my side of the aisle will just be tumbleweeds.
May I suggest joining some sort of sports activity where you can meet and train with others? For example, an amateur running team or cycling. Search for a mixed group - not an elite team full of testosterone loaded men.
That had helped me improve self confidence (and I'm _terrible_ at sports), find friends and ultimately find my wife.
People doing sports are typically in good mood and the activity naturally gives one something to talk about.
I am curious what you do for a living, why, and what would you rather do (or not do). Ignoring social factors, is there anything you would like to change?
Its not social anxiety for me, its asociality. It turns out the reason could be genetic. I talked to my mom recently, she said she came from a "line of sociopaths". I think she's exaggerating but I got the idea. Her father had multiple wives, and at least 3 male offspring still alive sound like me. My closest cousin has no friends and lives as a hikkikomori in his mid-30s. My mom's brother is extremely awkward and it took him a decade of concentrated effort just to be able to exist in a social crowd, and he still has no long-term friends. So much of my life made sense hearing that, and today I almost feel righteous in avoiding contact with others, having friends in my 20s wasn't a battle I was going to win with how unprepared and demotivated I was to fight it, and how my brain was working against me the whole time
I concluded that I really really really don't have much to add to any arbitrary meeting group, I've been in a lot of bad meetup.com meetings with people just like me that are lonely and awkward yet expect something to happen or work out...and it never does. And then there are groups that should work out, full of older persons with lots of social experience that treat me like a long lost friend...and yet it doesn't feel real to me. Like I can't stay engaged. Like it's artificial, constructed. Like there's no reason to talk to these people when the activity ends. And I keep thinking that's fine, to be left totally alone. I don't care either way. Everyone else screams at me "that's not okay, youre going to die early from isolation." So its like I have to eventually push myself into these situations I don't want to be in at some point or I'm killing myself. By having no friends I'm committing suicide. It's absurd to me. It sucks the joy out of it all every time, when its between remaining myself and supposedly dying miserably or forcing myself into situations I don't want to be in
I don't think this is at the level of "making friends is hard" anymore, like I used to. Its something so much deeper and so much more firmly rooted that most can't comprehend its depths. Hence why I feel alienated by people when I try to explain my condition to others in earnest, even when I'm trying to help them approach me. And admittedly it makes me feel like someone different or unique but I'm not going to say it helps me
Nearly outing related to a hobby I thought I liked...made me enjoy that hobby less afterwards, even alone. It's like seeing myself in a mirror. I questioned who I was outside of my work, never found a satisfactory answer, and just didn't want to keep going in the end.
For now I have accepted that the reason I keep getting roiled up about people talking about having trouble making friends is because we had to make friends or form communities to survive as a species. It's the human condition. So I keep coming back to the thought like a mutt in heat. My mind is wired to care at some level even if there's a veneer I can't scrape off. And infall outside the grain. But I don't see anything wrong with it. Hell, in another life if I cared about going out more I could have been an actual socialpath singularly focused on getting what I wanted out of people, and had I been any more charismatic in this life I sincerely believe that might just have come true
I found one of the best parts of travelling to a country where I don't speak the language is that I can keep to myself without feeling obligated to bother anyone, and after a few days I can just scurry away without being seen or cared about. It's a liberating feeling when I keep feeling pressured to perform correctly in my home country and I've been continually shunned or ostracized for not fitting in at X or Y social club, exactly like I expected from the start. Its also why when I learn a language (Japanese) it's like an "emotional blunting" to consume media in that language. even though I understand the meaning of the words/sentences perfectly it's like there's no "weight" to them. It puts distance between me and people who speak my native tongue. I don't get emotionally attached like if I read the same story in English, because I have no real connection to Japanese besides side interest.I can live within these texts that all others around me can't understand. And at times it feels like a metaphor for my life
I think the language/japan thing shows that it's stuff created in your head in isolation that is holding you back. And only a different view of things (forced on you through using another language) is what you need.
Keep it up with the languages though, always time well spent.
Maybe stop navel-gazing and use your money to go somewhere like Japan and get a girl (assuming you're male) knocked up or something so you don't have so much free time to mope about you not having a same-sex comfort blanket.
When you were a kid, you play with other kids, slowly you know each other, understand each other. And then that understanding grow into trust, and further into reliance or even love.
As an adult, reliance and love is hard to develop due to many factors, but understanding and trust can still grow.
Under this new situation, maybe it's just more rational to change the definition of friendship, since deeper interactions (such as companionship) has now became too expensive.
> Eventually, loneliness can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Maybe one day you'll find that you already have many friends living around you, you ignored it in the past because "that's just regular old living".
It really isn’t hard. Everyone is so devoid of human contact, if you’re willing to put 6 months of effort you can do it
Edit: you really only need to find one, maybe two people and be okay just pushing it by asking people to do stuff. You'd be surprised how willing people are to do anything. Just start asking. It's also hard bc we (in america) design our cities very poorly
I'll throw this out there since I've got plenty of other ideas and I just want this to exist. What if there was a platform where people met in a bar in real life then chose a group to meet up with weekly for the next say 4 weeks and did different activities from a preset menu or something?
Since friends are made through repeated interactions and bond more around activities than just eg hanging out, I'd hope this would work better than meeting randoms at a meetup. It'd also filter people who had the time to commit to making friends.
Would anyone be interested in this? Please upvote if you like the sound of this.
There's a saying that women make friends face to face, while men make friends shoulder to shoulder. So maybe the activities could get tailored accordingly.
>> Researchers also find that when we develop groups, our friendships are more sustainable than they are with individuals. Because there's multiple touch points now, right? Someone else in the group could reach out to all of us, and then we all keep in touch.
My personal experiences echo this statement. My most personal active groups are the ones where we share the same interest, e.g music, photography, church, etc. We still regularly meet a few times each month either for coffee, business discussion, watching movie, outside city trips, etc.
I'm 45. I regularly make friends with people who I meet climbing, at meet ups, at work, at social functions etc. Some of these have proven to be long term friendships. I don't think it's the "adult" factor, I think it's a choice of priorities. Probably the most important factor in my circumstance is my partner (of 26 years) and I don't have kids. Having said that, some of my more recent friends (last few years) do have kids, so they're obviously still prioritising meeting new people and doing new things.
I had this problem recently since I moved to another country where I don’t know anyone except my girlfriend and her family, in post covid.
People are nice and always open to share and have a chat for free. After feeling alone for a bit I started overthinking on every little comment or phrase that I could have misunderstood that made me feel those people were not interested in a conversation with me. I was wrong, but that’s how our brain works when we’re alone (or with the same people) for too long. Getting out there and having many conversations as possible helps a lot.
It's so weird though. For example, I am interested in photography and in challenging myself by going on hikes, or to colorful events and taking shots I have not even considered before. No restrictions on with whom - men, women, young, old, different backgrounds - just shared pursuit of creativity and getting out of the house. While I hope that some of these shared activities might eventually lead to more broad friendships (not romance, married with kids and not looking), I also would never make that an expectation or demand. Myself I am just a regular guy in late 40th, not a creep or a womanizer, my existing friends of both genders seem to like me fine.
So I reached out at photography groups at work, took half a dozen day classes - nada. I put my e-mail on the board, ask people to ping me if they think of just going somewhere and shooting, nobody ever does. Tried to strike conversations with other birdwarchers in local parks, never leads to lasting connections.
In school / college / 90s workplace, I used to just hang around with people without making any special effort. Some of them later even invited me to come visit them for a couple of weeks in another country. Just what does it take to have some uncomplicated fun and light sharing of one's thoughts and feelings later on in life? I can't be the only one still interested?
> continuous unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability
So... become a regular at local restaurants, random coffee shops, bars, clubs, farmer's markets, parks, hiking trails, start a band, volunteer somewhere, join a gym, travel, etc.
> So... become a regular at local restaurants, random coffee shops, bars, clubs, farmer's markets, parks, hiking trails, start a band, volunteer somewhere, join a gym, travel, etc.
Maybe this used to work, but it no longer does. I'm a regular at several local hangouts, hit the gym several days a week, and go out to other activities regularly. I rarely have conversations with anyone beyond perfunctory pleasantries with the staff. Neither does anyone else; since COVID people almost exclusively stick to themselves or the group they came with.
There's been the odd occasion where I do get someone's contact info like the article suggests. So I text and the conversation tends to be some variation of "I'm busy the next couple of weeks, I'll text when I can hang out!" Of course they never do. Following up yields the same result and also reeks of desperation, so I no longer do that.
Meanwhile people seem to regard friendships as disposable lately. Within the past year I've been repeatedly ghosted and excluded from activities by longstanding friends for some perceived offense that I only found out about secondhand weeks later. Apologizing had no effect, and I regret doing it.
So now, I have almost no friends in my current town aside from my spouse, and rather than continue on with this charade we have decided to move back east - where probably the cycle will repeat itself, but at least in a more familiar environment where socializing is slightly easier.
I have a theory that most of us have become far more introverted than we realize.
A good friend of mine is very high on the extraversion scale. There is not a shred of introversion in him beyond him spending part of his free time studying philosophy. He has the ability to strike up long conversations with seemingly anyone, anywhere, anytime. This has been true before COVID, during COVID, and after COVID. What does he do? He simply starts talking to people. It can be about just about anything, though usually he will start conversations by making an observation or a light-hearted joke relevant to the situation. He will even ask people he doesn't know their opinion on something that's relevant to the situation. One might assume this strategy must blow up in his face with some frequency, but I've never seen that happen. Is it any coincidence that he has many friends and half the town seems to know him? I don't think so.
There's nothing he does that any of us can't do. It's not as if he is super handsome or well dressed. I do agree that people these days, depending on the region, have developed a tendency to stick to themselves, be soft-spoken, and not initiate anything. That doesn't mean people don't desire for someone to break up the monotony, even if they think they want to always be by themselves and not be bothered. By my observation, most people aren't bothered, and the ones who are will play along anyway. While others certainly put up a barrier, many of us who actively desire more human contact may not realize how much of a barrier that we put up ourselves.
Eventually, enough people need to acknowledge that putting up a barrier sucks, and that's got to start somewhere.
> almost exclusively stick to themselves or the group they came with
Yes I've noticed this too, but what does "stick to themselves" mean? If you mean someone sitting alone I don't think that's much different from what you might look like to them. Say hello or smile. Never know.
Also, even when people are in groups they might be open to one more. People usually aren't that insular unless they're jerks anyway. Worst that can happen is they ignore you which is better than assuming. Yeah it's rougher out there than it used to be, but that makes it all the better when you do click with people. I feel like the current climate has more opportunity for genuine connections than it was before covid when people were posing and fronting all the time.
I concur. I'm at every local cafe, to the point that the baristas recognize my order, and I'm at the gym at the same time most days of the week. After gym, I go to the supermarket next to it to buy some fruit or a drink, and the cashiers recognize me. I'm also in a bunch of local meetups.
This has not led to any organic conversation that could lead to something deeper.
> since COVID people almost exclusively stick to themselves or the group they came with.
I’ve noticed the same thing. I used to go out a lot, loved to out talk to people, maybe a party a bit. Sometimes I’d go with a group, often times I’d go out alone. It used to be pretty common if you were alone on a weekend, someone would invite you to come sit and chat with them.
Post-covid though I’ve pretty much stopped going out. People seem more antisocial outside of their insular groups, at least compared to pre-covid. The “friend” group I was part of imploded because of petty drama and nowadays, the only thing I get from going out alone is a bad hangover the next day.
There are not "get to know people" places, at least in places where I lived. You go to restaurant with people you already know, you dont just walk to table with someone you dont know to talk. Same with: random coffee shops, bars, clubs, hiking trails, farmer's markets and gym.
Parks are an exception ... if you have toddler with you.
Friends are hard to make, there's just so much to do and so little time. It requires effort, dedication and possibility of rejection.
Striking out, saying hello, trying to meet new people is a very difficult action.
If you have a partner, it might not matter so much. After all, they have friends, and catchups means they could be your friends with no real effort expended. But alone? Well, welcome to adulting.
> Researchers also find that when we develop groups, our friendships are more sustainable than they are with individuals.
this really should be simple common sense. We are so far removed from our natural habitat (the small tribe/village where everyone is always around everyone) that we have forgotten this basic simple thing too.
This reads a bit like someone trying to force a romantic relationship. Yes, we're no kids anymore, but this doesn't mean we're entitlted to anything. Relationships only really work, or are really fruitful, if not forced. Same applies to love. At least this is my experience. If you have to write "Don't be too hard to yourself" in an article which says "You're not uncool" in the title, something is definitely off. If you have to assert that "people already like you", you likely have personality traits that make you unfun to be around, which explains why you need to read this article. If I had to summarize, I'd say: "Self-help for neurotic people".
Adults don't want to behave like they used to behave as kids.
They don't want to spontaneously talk randomly about something to an unknown person, because that comes with risks like rejection, looking like a fool, being labelled in a certain way, associating with somebody boring/annoying/leeching, etc.
Kids takes way more risks, including social risks, because they don't know those are risks.
I guarantee that if you go to clubs or public places you enjoy, and you bring out the kid in you (at least the part that doesn't bring chaos), you will make friends eventually. Not immediately, but keep at it, and it will happen.
However I noticed many adults don't actually want to live the process of making friends. Even without risk, they don't want to make the effort.
Because here is another thing that adults don't have and kids have plenty: energy.
And it turns out making friends require a ton of energy, because while you can be yourself and make friends, you cannot "be on your own" and make friends. You can't live a perfectly scheduled life and make friends. You will have to get out of your bubble, move things around in your day, welcome the unexpected, and interact. You will have to discard something in favor of it. And you will have to do it again and again because most people are not a good fit to be your friends.
Kids do that all the times, without even thinking about it.
Forget about the missing opportunities, it's only the tip of the iceberg, and it can be overcome by getting out of your way. I have friends that are 10 years older or younger. I made friends after my twenties and after my thirties.
Hell I'm going forty yet I made a new friend 2 years ago, and we are getting pretty intimate at this point. My mother is almost 70, and she is still dating.
But when I feel like inviting new people into my life (which I don't always do, right now I have closed doors, I don't have an infinite reserve of private life to share), I will invest in it. I will accept the cost.
Because making friends is not free. Just like sex is not free and speaking your mind is not free.
Kids don't realize the cost, and bare less the weight of it, but we are very aware of it.
Making friends don't "just happen naturally" when you are a kid, there is a process.
But the process is seamless to kids, while it requires effort to adults.
> Adults don't want to behave like they used to behave as kids.
> They don't want to spontaneously talk randomly about something to an unknown person, because that comes with risks like rejection, looking like a fool, being labelled in a certain way, associating with somebody boring/annoying/leeching, etc.
> Kids takes way more risks, including social risks, because they don't know those are risks.
I'm fortunate, in being involved in a Fellowship that forces many folks, that would otherwise, never have anything to do with each other, together.
I have made many friends. A lot of these friendships are decades old. Many of these folks are ones that have huge differences from me, in things like politics and religion; yet we've still got each others' backs, and it is always a genuine pleasure to meet.
That's why work is a great fulcrum for friendship. A shared task/values thing is way to find common ground.
If we don't have work, one of my most common suggestions, is to get involved in nonprofit/volunteer work.
To me it is more like that I already have good friends and I barely get enough time to stay in touch with them. So a new friendship must make space by "deprioritizing" some of the existing ones, which feels bad.
I'm from the Netherlands, and moved to Quebec (French part of Canada) 16 years ago, to be with my (now) wife, and even after all those years, I still feel I can't express myself as well in French as in my native language. This, I think, is my biggest hurdle when making new friends.
We also live in a beautiful small village, with three great kids, and really have a great life, but a small village isn't the best place to find people with the same, very geeky, interests. Not that having the same interests is a requirement for friendship, but it would be really nice.
Or you could just get out of your house naked, without any money, and start riding your tall bike outside the city and asking for help. A french dude just filmed himself doing that a few years ago.
Joke aside, you don't even have to be nude or ride an eccentric bike. Touring without a motorized vehicle and asking for directions/food/shelter is a great way to start conversations and meet new people. And you don't need to go very far. If you are doing that walking you can meet and get new friends easily in a relatively close radius.
Pro tip a friend let me in on: carry a guitar with you. Good if you can play it a little. If you are a man it makes you seem less threatening. People tend to be more open and friendly.
> There's this phenomenon called homohysteria, which is the fear of being perceived as gay that I think really, really is destructive for men's friendships
This is so true, some people even speak that out, something like "They're so close they're so gay," but the truth is this makes people afraid to connect with a dude.
it is not like gays are bad, but when you're not gay, you wouldn't want others to assume that you are.
Some people have remarked about whether a good friend of mine and I are gay because we hang out 1-on-1 a lot. This is in California, BTW, where one might believe the current politics would discourage people from making assumptions.
It's a good thing it doesn't upset me, given I don't think there's anything wrong with being gay.
What does bother me, though, is how easily people will sexualize adult male friendships. Women are allowed to have close female friends and interact with them in ways where, if guys did the same, someone might think "bro, u homo?"
I really wish HN had a meetup section where you could host meetups in cities. I went to a meetup in Mexico City a few months ago, all from HN, and it was great.
I dislike hearing people talk. I think they don't talk nicely unless they're actual chads. Because I can detect when a person means something else, or when they are hating, or worse, my brain can take out-of-context phrases and hint that I'm in danger or among hostiles. I dislike voice chat as well. I limit myself to text communication.
Join a sports team and stick with it. You’ll have lots of friends in no time.
Being part of a team and working on something together that’s not work and doing it consistently over years is key.
I see the same group of fifty people two times a week, rain or shine. Over time you’ll naturally develop close friends without having to awkwardly force it.
I have never played a sport outside of gym class. When I went to local sports meetups, I mostly found people practicing the sports they played in high school or college. I sucked by comparison, and it showed.
I think this is the key here. You're going to be the FNG (<expletive> New Guy) for a while. So choose your sport and level wisely. Most leagues that I have come across have at least two, if not three or four, levels. Where, say, the "A" level is for folks that played in high school, maybe even college, while the "C" level is going to be accommodating to someone who is just picking up the sport as an adult.
And really, sucking at the sport could be advantageous in terms of socializing. "Hey, anyone want to run some skill drills next Wednesday evening? We'll meet at <local park> at 6:00 PM, practice for an hour, and if anyone's up for it we can go to <pub next door> afterwards." Yeah, you might only get one or two takers if most of the folks have kids but that's just part of adult socializing.
I mean stuff like pickup soccer or basketball that happens in parks and at gyms. I don't think we have much in terms of league sports around here, except maybe employment-based leagues (like Google, Meta, and Microsoft fielding softball teams).
It depends on the circumstances. First of all, if you suck too much, it might not be fun for yourself even under the best of circumstances. Secondly, yeah, if it's just for fun and especially if you're not the only who "sucks", it can be fine and as you say "liberating" and everybody's still having a good time. (Also, at least personally it feels easier to just relax and accept that you somewhat suck at that sport and still have some fun anyway if you're with a group of people you already know, which of course doesn't really work if you're going to a sports meetup to meet new people in the first place…)
However if you're the only one who comparatively really sucks and maybe on top everybody else is treating things a little more competitively, it possibly starts feeling a little bit too much like gym classes at school, where you always got selected as one of the last ones into a team because everybody knew you weren't really the sporty type and consequently wouldn't really improve any team's chances of winning…
What about them not initiating contact is a negative? I can see why that'd be interpreted as a negative, but does it make sense for that person?
I know that I do a poor job of initiating hanging out but if I'm ever invited somewhere, I say yes 9/10 times. I like to do stuff but 1) I don't know what to suggest to do with others or 2) I want to suggest something however I am worried it'll be a negative experience and therefore I don't send out the invite at all.
Well in one case, it was a neighbor. We had some great chats over beers, lots of laughs. Knocked on his door several times and enjoyed the visits. I also emailed him to initiate contact. We had some interests in common.
But he never initiated, not once. Never offered his number, never emailed me to see what's up after I moved a few miles away.
I think that combined with him being from the South, where I understand people can be extremely polite in not being your friend--I just figured he was politely saying No Thanks.
> “There's this phenomenon called homohysteria, which is the fear of being perceived as gay that I think really, really is destructive for men's friendships,” she says.
I see this claimed a lot (usually from women), but it doesn't seem true to me. It is true that men are less likely to form new friendships as adults than women, but I don't think it has anything to do with being perceived as gay in most cases. It has much more to do with the ways men and women socialize. Women also seem better at retaining friendships when they move, by calling and catching up with their old friends, while men tend to let old friendships die. Obviously these are generalizations and there are plenty of exceptions in both directions, but I think the basic pattern is true for the two groups as a whole.
adults grow increasingly specific while resonating decreasingly less with the masses. same reason it's hard to make a good rap music - too much way too specific words in it
Making friends in Cairo, Egypt, where I currently reside, is very easy. People are very hospitable, there are a lot of house parties and you can crash any party (bring booze) and you will be welcomed with open arms. It's a massive metropolis and there are a lot of things to do.
This is kind of a childish response presuming this is sarcasm. If it's not, then you're actually quite right (at least in my experience).
Anyway I'll let you continue to have fun on your own terms.
Edit: To be clear, I mean "degenerate" as more just going against general expectations. I.e. partying, drinking, doing drugs, not having kids if you don't want them.
Anyway you shouldn't read too much into my posts here. I'm generally pretty successful and the older generation probably likes me more than you ( ;) ). My overall point is that you should go out and have fun make friends and do what you want. You only get one shot at life and it's far too short.
Now that you mention it, I definitely prefer being childish over oldfarty. In fact, I always thought "the day I begin to look down on partying people is the day I finally have to admit I am old now."
I'm a loner, always wondered what are friends talking about when meeting? Looks like 1) exchanging news, some useful information 2) emotional support, bragging and getting cheered 3) shi!!ing on mutual enemies/outsiders. Did I catch the essence?
I would argue that it is impossible. Mostly because you come to realize that "friendship" is often a lopsided arrangement where the other party is gorging themselves on whatever need they have.
All of my adult friends are from previous jobs. And I mean - friends. We have Slack channels and grab drinks and lunches once in a while to catch up. We visit each other's big life events.
You can't just bond with someone over work - you need to regularly grab after-office drinks, open up and develop trust. And when you are older and busier - bonding over food is also effective.
> "I met somebody several years ago that I thought I might get to be friends with and invited them out to have coffee with me. I was told that this person really had all the friends that they need.”
:(
> "it’s of the utmost importance for people like Troxel to keep putting themselves out there."
Maybe it isn’t ‘making friends is hard’ as much as it is ‘modern high-mobility, independent lifestyles make it hard to make friends’. Isn’t that the elephant in the room? We want independence but really want interdependence.
The pandemic made it so much worse for a lot of people I know. Or should I say it was exactly those people who made it worse for all of us? I am sure that a certain slice of the population my age
As someone with a young child this thread feels really odd. I can't imagine the time to ponder such things in between a full time job and parenting (no, 'friends' are not necessary to start a family).
What are you all expecting? That you meet a bunch of compatible people and your everyday lives become like the episodes of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic? Or is it a desire for more of an emotional co-dependency with someone of the same gender?
If you want to do an activity, join a club. If you want to share information, find people on Twitter or something.
Casting friendship as "emotional co-dependency" is surely the height of combined individualism and cynicism. You may have no time for friendship, but lots of people do.
I could have been more cynical. I could have said it's often a means of collusion to allow certain regions of the population to elevate their status within the wider group and take advantage of those who are not as well connected. Or simply for people to turn their surroundings into an echo chamber.
I don't think what I said was that ridiculous. For most people in the world friend groups are about precisely what I mentioned and anything beyond that is a luxury afforded to few.
The thing is that you have to put in more effort than when younger.
Proximity and constant contact is easy when you are young.
One of the things that made it easier in elementary/jr high/high school and/or university is that you were in classes every day or every other day with the same person for months. You see them on campus or buildings as you are walking around. Going to school is mandatory, so you will see the same people every day.
It's easy.
As an adult, it is not the same. But that is why office romances are so common. You are forced to see the same people every day. But there are other places. Some go to church for social contact, not necessarily worship. Or maybe worship is a 2 or 3 and social is 9 out of 10 in importance.
One solution is to go to groups with weekly meetings. Monthly is not frequent enough. I met a lot of cool people in a hiking group and a technical groups that I went to.
If you start your own hiking/walking group and get 10 or 20 people to attend, you will have a lot of friends, especially if you are the group leader. Leaders always get the attention of everyone - it's built into our DNA. You are the one who puts in the effort, gets people together, plans where you go to walk. You have to "market" the group. You also have to plan extracurricular activities - if you have a hiking group, every few months you can have a party at your house for your group, or BBQ or whatever.
Join weekly groups, or create a weekly group. That's the best way. If you just don't want to put in the effort, well, what can I say. You won't get together frequently enough to form bonds. It really just isn't possible, or maybe just not likely anyways. You want to increase probabilities, you need to meet with people weekly. I think creating the group is best.
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Here are some ways if you want to createyour own group to find and attract members:
Create a Facebook group or page and invite your friends to join and share it with their network.
Use other social media platforms such as Twitter, Instagram, or LinkedIn to promote your group and reach a wider audience.
Create a website or a landing page where people can learn more about your group and sign up to join.
Post flyers or posters in public spaces such as coffee shops, libraries, or community centers.
Attend local events and hand out flyers to people who might be interested.
Use word of mouth and tell your friends, family, and colleagues about your group and ask them to spread the word.
Ask local related businesses if you can post flyers or business cards in their establishment. Camping stores for hiking, computer stores for tech groups, etc.
Use online community platforms such as Meetup, Eventbrite, or Facebook Events to create and promote your group.
Create a group on LinkedIn and invite people in your industry to join.
Use Reddit to post about your group in relevant subreddits.
Reach out to local organizations or clubs and ask if they would be interested in collaborating with your group.
Use Craigslist to post about your group in the community section.
Attend networking events and conferences to meet new people and promote your group.
Create a hashtag for your group and use it on social media to increase visibility.
Use paid advertising on social media platforms such as Facebook or Instagram to reach a wider audience.
Partner with local newspapers or radio stations to advertise your group.
Use email marketing to reach out to people who might be interested in joining.
Attend local festivals or events and hand out flyers or business cards.
Use Google AdWords to target people searching for keywords related to your group.
Create a YouTube channel and post videos about your group to promote it.
Use influencer marketing by partnering with people who have a large following in your niche.
Attend relevant industry events and promote your group to the attendees.
Partner with local schools or universities to reach out to students who might be interested in joining.
Partner with churches and other types of places where people meet regularly.
Host a launch event or a meetup to introduce your group to the community and attract new members.
This is the most important tip in the article, in my experience.
When I lived in SF, most of my friend hangs were 1-on-1 catchups over coffee or lunch. Scheduling and comparing calendars would sometimes feel like an impersonal chore. Meeting so many people individually was time consuming, repetitive, hard to schedule, and yet somehow infrequent -- it felt like the main reason to hang was to catch up on what's new, so you needed to wait a month or two to let new things pile up.
Then I moved to Seattle. I decided to switch to only really attending (or inviting people to) hangouts that included multiple people. Basically, my new policy was to try to hang out with multiple simultaneously whenever possible. And it worked wonders! My friends met all my other friends, and things played out exactly as described by the article -- some of them hit it off, became friends with each other, and started initiating invites and events without me.
In addition, hangouts are just more fun with more people. There's more to talk about, more excitement, more fun. And it's easier to schedule, too, since you can see more people in a smaller number of hangs. The value of the hangs goes up, too. There's more reason for people to say "yes" because they're getting to catch up with multiple people, not just one person.