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Where Expats Should (Not) Move in 2022 (internations.org)
61 points by yamrzou on July 22, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 122 comments



Black expat.

Thailand going 4 years. Vietnam just under a year.

Both places excellent to live. Finances go very far. Extremely easy to get along with people. Never experienced racism. Cops have been super friendly.

Been a lot in Indonesia also… very very good for expats and extremely friendly people.

Japan was the least friendly and I would probably never live there for a long stretch of time.

Dating was easiest in Vietnam followed by Thailand. Hard in other places.

Never really encountered the “farang” tax in Thailand. Really it mostly comes up when you go to official tourist sites.

For normal everyday encounters like markets, stores, street stuff - it really does not exist.

If you dress like a clueless farang who left their balls at the airport people will try to extract more from you.

Overall based on my talk with Thai friends and foreigners, it seems I am treated a lot better than most white foreigners.

Go figure.


> Japan was the least friendly and I would probably never live there for a long stretch of time.

This. Whenever I hear a young Black person saying they want to move or visit Japan, I say one thing: "Don't. Go to Korea instead."

Japan is just not a friendly place. Yes, people will be polite and kind -- but friendly...hmm...This is coming from a long time resident. I met more long term close friends in 1 year in Korea than 10 in Japan. I'm talking people that I consider family. Of all the countries I have visited, Korea has been the most warm, welcoming, and overall fun.

When I hear my White friends discuss their experiences in Japan, it literally feels like they are describing a different country. I tell them sometimes: "We live in very different Japans."

Haven't been to Vietnam, yet. But I have heard good things.


The general lack of pervasive, systemic racism in much of the rest of the world is like breathing fresh air


as opposed to where?


Correct.

Racism is everywhere. It depends on what you do with it and if you spend your life being a victim.

I’ve chosen to not even notice it my whole life and so I don’t feel disadvantaged oppressed in the slightest on any part of the globe.


My wife and I just moved back to the US after living in NZ for 1.5 years. Sure, the cost of living is higher and yes the pay is lower. We went in knowing both of those things. NZ is a great country for people who love nature and the outdoors. The citizenry seem to have a higher level of respect for nature and how to protect it.

There is also socialized medicine and the ACC covering all accidents on NZ soil is great, so comparing costs directly isn't the same.

However not everything is great, it does feel a little isolating being on the other side of the world on a tiny island and their covid controls did start to feel a little draconian. (Even after we got more than 90% of the eligible population vaxed we were still in a strict lockdown with almost no-one allowed through the borders).

Overall I was sad to leave, but our families are both in the US and ultimately it was time to come home.


What’s your read on the average New Zealander’s opinion of ongoing lockdowns? Are they generally in favor, or is the gov’t out of touch?


At first, the average kiwi's opinion was definitely in favor. The lockdowns initially worked to entirely stamp out covid and allowed NZ to return to relatively normal operations while the rest of the world was still in lockdown. But with omicron, even NZ's strict border control couldn't keep it out. Even still most people seemed to favor the lockdowns to slow the spread while we were vaccinating (NZ was near the bottom of the list in receiving vaccines since there was initially no covid circulating in the country.) However I started seeing people begin to complain when the vaccine rates topped 90% and there were still some restrictions, and the borders were still as closed as ever.

That being said, there was still a sizable group in support of continued restrictions both on the population and on the border.


> with omicron, even NZ's strict border control couldn't keep it out.

New Zealander here.

NZ could have remained in isolation, but it didn't.

The government basically decided we needed to open borders and that we would get Covid - borders were opened enough that it was inevitable it would get through.

I can say that successfully eradicating covid in 2020 was awesome (but 20/20 hindsight that the costs were worth it because it worked).

Even then, we still made some very poor decisions, like every country did in its own ways. Taiwan made amazingly good decisions I thought (they started their SARS response in Dec 2019, tracking and isolation).

Disclaimer: just my opinion based on what I saw. I don't have any actual insider information on the government decisions.


I just moved to Taiwan from the States. It feels risky given the political situation. It seemed like the Russo-Ukrainian war would be a perpetual stalemate, and then one day everything changed. Taiwan is a beautiful country, and the Taiwanese people don’t deserve to be threatened with invasion. I suppose by moving I am betting that the risk is less than 50%, but I don’t think it’s 0. The United States enjoy a geopolitical security that may not be appreciated until you leave.


You (probably) get better personal safety in Taiwan, and if China decides to have a go you’ll likely get enough of an advance notice and will have evacuation options courtesy of the US Navy. I wouldn’t worry.


Honest question, what dynamics make you think China would give advance notice?


They have to stage a ton of equipment and personnel near the coast before launching an invasion.

USA will have a 2-3 month heads up if the only intelligence they have is satellite photos.


If that is how they go about it

They could also just blow up all government buildings from afar


China isn’t looking to obliterate Taiwan off the earth. They wage a war to unite the country: they need a functioning Taiwan as much as possible after the war ends.

To put it another way, they considers it to be a civil war, and will give plenty of warning in order to convince everyone else to stay out of the way.


the dynamics of not accidentally killing foreign diplomats. When the US embassy starts to tell staff to pack their bags and the State Department issues a travel warning you know it's time to leave, as was the case in Ukraine at the end of January.


If they do an anfibious invasion, it will be easily spotted

But, no one can foresee the future


So Mexico is highly ranked and Italy is near the bottom? Sure, Italy is drowning in red tape, but bureaucracy in Mexico is greased with corruption. And by nearly any quality of life measure I can think of, Italy is far, far ahead of Mexico. There is something very seriously wrong with this ranking system.

It also depends on where you're applying for stuff in Italy. For example, I had to apply for a Permesso di Soggiorno (kind of the Italian green card) to stay longer than normal for a sabbatical. In Rome it was essentially impossible: unbelievable intentional roadblocks were put up at every stage, all the way down to the application station being in a pseudo-prison far outside of Rome with no bus service. Very clearly designed, at all cost, to prevent people from applying. I eventually gave up applying in Rome. BUT in Forli, in Northern Italy, application was a breeze, straightforward and fast, helpful service with a smile.


I don’t think I’d step foot in Italy with how their legal system works. Guilty until proven innocent.


Not sure where you got that from, but that's not how Italian law works.

'The Italian criminal system is broadly an adversarial system and is governed by the presumption of innocence. The burden of proof falls on the Public Prosecutor, who must prove the guilt of an accused person. The standard of proof required is "beyond a reasonable doubt". Unless this standard is met the defendant must be acquitted. The court must consider and evaluate any doubt a reasonable person could have.'[1]

[1] https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-007-7826?contex...


Quick google shows that to be not entirely accurate. It’s a complicated system in ways I wouldn’t want to go near.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Italy/Justice


I see nothing in that link that suggests anything of the sort.

The problem Amanda Knox faced -- and I presume this is really boiling down to her -- is that Italy doesn't have double jeopardy. So the prosecutor kept retrying her, and the court kept acquitting her.

If you don't like that I suggest you also stay away from Japan, among many Asian countries. Though Japan has double jeopardy, sort of, police can and will arrest you, hold you for a significant amount of time, then release you prior to trial and re-arrest you again over and over again, just by adding new trivial charges. This is what happened to Carlos Ghosn (whether he deserved it is another question).


Please don’t presume to know me nor my personal thoughts. Thanks for really weirding me out.


It is still obscure - after having read the section in the Britannica - what you find "to be avoided".


Not knowing anything about Italy myself, can you expand or link to something describing the problems? Would like to learn more.


He's probably thinking of Amanda Knox [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Knox


Hers is a good example. But realistically it’s important to be aware of differences in fundamental things like legal systems just like cultural differences when traveling or discussions like this about places expats like or don’t. You can just go on YouTube and hear accounts of this type of stuff and culture shock is real. It’s possible to get serious culture shock going from one US state to another (or town/city) so of course different countries are going to be consequential.


> And by nearly any quality of life measure I can think of, Italy is far, far ahead of Mexico.

I agree with you that Italy is probably hands down a better choice - but if you want to live in a city - it is tough to beat the nicer neighborhoods in Mexico City for quality of life and affordability and being in the same time zone.

If you want to live in the hills, or a small town, Italy is tough to beat.


Lived in Mexico for the better part of this year until recent. Wholeheartedly agree.

Could still be in the same time zone (or close) as my job so no issues there, CDMX is extremely affordable by US standards, the city is beautiful (in the nicer neighborhoods) and the weather is great during the dry season.

Plenty of co-working spaces or cafes to go to, and the city is very friendly to expats from my experience. Helps also knowing Spanish but I know plenty of friends who didn't know a word of it and enjoy their experience.


How did you get to know people in CDMX?


Honestly, it sounds like the DMV in california. The DMV locations in populated areas have long lines and wait times, but the ones in outlying areas are less crowded and even pleasant.


Even in urban California the DMV is mostly fine if you have an appointment.


They always made me wait in the same outdoor line as everyone else even with an appointment. I've never had an urban CA DMV trip takes less than 2h.


At the one in SF they have two (poorly marked) lines.


Maybe it is because a lot of US citizens go to Mexico to surf and drink but don't really settle, and hence don't need bureaucracy? There are many different kinds of expats.


Having lived and worked abroad in Australia, I’d say that it’s expensive but you also get your money’s worth. The country is pretty much all beautiful beaches.

People are friendly, but in my experience they were distant. It took a long time to make friends with folks (who weren’t other expats). Maybe because the houses are smaller so folks don’t invite one another over, or because of the kinda pervasive (?) social club scene where people go instead of bars or restaurants, but I found it tough to engage with folks outside of work while I was there.

It’s kinda a shame, since I’d love to go back there - if I could figure that bit out!

Especially in contrast to Germany where I also lived and worked abroad and people were very open and inviting (and also friendly).


> but in my experience [Australians] were distant

New Zealander here - I'll state one opinion although it is controversial and maybe totally irrelevant to you personally.

Plenty of Americans are socially unaware of the cultural differences between New Zealanders and Americans, because the differences are not so blatantly obvious like in many other countries.

I've result is that NZers stereotype Americans, and there is some negative bigotry towards Americans in general. The default is a negative sentiment towards most Americans, so becoming friends is an uphill battle. We generally won't correct your social faux pas++: you need to have the skills to read social cues and fit in. Your mental bullying government isn't helping all you'ze either.

The American tourists I saw in Mexico were some of the most obnoxious wankers I have ever seen (although exceeded by epically rude Russian tourists in Sri Lanka, and even they are exceeded by some other countries' citizens). I generally like the Americans I randomly met in the USA weirdly enough.

Not sure what I could recommend. Perhaps some serious self deprecation would help (à la British humour). Maybe find one person who will give honest feedback when you screw it up.

Some places are not as friendly as others. Go to Wellington if you are working in NZ - it is far more international and welcoming to people from different strokes. Great place!

Anyways, could have been anything, not just our typical anti-American sentiment. We are generally still welcoming compared with many countries.

What I said above is likely similar in Australia.


So Russia is No.17, just 3 places behind the US, and ahead of Canada, UK, Czech Republic, and a whole bunch of others? It's good I never believe any rankings because they're all BS.


As someone who moved to Singapore this year, I'm amazed at people who say their personal finances are okay. I think it depends heavily on who pays you, namely if you're paid in your home currency or not. SG is hell of expensive for almost everything, even more so if you're paid in SGD.

Moreover, that "people aren't friendly to expats" has got to be the most incorrect thing I see on this list. Who are these people running into? Once you get into a conversation with people, cats are generally cool and can talk a bit about themselves, just like in any country. They aren't as courteous as people were in the say the Midwest (where people are very very nice even to strangers) but I do not get at all that people are unkind. If anything, I find people are curious about you.

If people are reacting to how some situations people are busy, that's just how it is. In certain situations like buying food at a hawker centre you just have to keep things moving along. If the worker isn't busy (likely they won't be) they can be more "friendly" I guess.


i’m wondering how safe mexico really is once you want to spend some of your money, buy a nice house or car, etc.

with thailand i’ve heard stories of “farang prices” where you pay 10x for medical care compared to locals.

a friend of mine in laos had to travel to thailand every time he needed care.


Lived in Thailand for a bit. The "foreigner tax" (farang is usually reserved for White foreigners) is usually for untraceable cash payments (i.e. taxis, stalls, etc.) and government ran spaces (national parks, etc).

In the case of the latter, usually foreigners pay 5X for entry -- this is government mandated.

Now, as for the former, it's more for gullible tourist fresh off the boat. I was drunkenly making my way home one night, and hopped in a taxi. Guy told me something like 1,500 baht ($40 USD). I just laughed at the guy and said "meter", followed by him giving me a knowing look and a laugh as he turned on the meter. It was a 5 minute drive and ended up costing like 50 baht...If you know, then you know.

Aside from the constant absurd and abusive racism handed out by Thai police in BKK, the country is an amazing place to live. Safe and friendly. And, I want to make it clear that I only received racist attacks (physical and verbal) from cops in BKK and nowhere else in the country -- but of course, everything became fine once they realized I was an American...


In my experience living in Latin America, you have to know decent numbers in Spanish in order to not get people ripping you off. Really important here, considering that prices are often above 1000 pesos/etc for things, if you can't understand (with conversion!) mental math in those units or how to say numbers that high you're probably going to get screwed over at least once by someone looking to capitalize on your ignorance. It's the first bit of advice I have for anyone coming in from out of the country other than the other two bits: don't take offence to someone making fun of you (If they don't make fun of you or mess with you a bit after getting to know you, even just a little bit, it means they don't like you, which is really quite something a lot of other cultures don't get so easily), and don't do cocaine unless you want to be looked at as a potential victim. Same thing with the taxi, except it helps to know the local slang for a 'meter' -- 'la maria', and a phrase around the lines of 'no me jodas, no soy gringo, muchas gracias' (Don't fuck with me, I'm not a gringo, many thanks) will get you a lot further too.


In most Latin American countries if you live in a larger or more touristy city you can just take Uber as well since it's pretty commonly used here.

I normally tell people to stay away from getting involved at all with drugs here, for your own safety. Obviously that may be s little overboard depending on what fits your fancy but I stand by it.

Currently live in Lima, Peru coming from being in CDMX for 6 months and Guadalajara for a couple as well.


wait, which white people would thai people have not liked (since you've implied being white was bad except for being a white american)? My time vacationing in thailand has always been overwhelmingly friendly...like the most friendly locals of any places I've been, but I stayed out of bangkok, which I hear is completely different.


I didn't imply being white was bad -- and not sure how you came to that conclusion. I was referring to OP's usage of "farang tax". I was pointing out farang is usually used for white foreigners. So it's more of a general "foreigner tax" than a "farang (only) tax".


> And, I want to make it clear that I only received racist attacks (physical and verbal) from cops in BKK and one where else in the country -- but of course, everything became fine once they realized I was an American...

you said you experienced racism, that's what I meant, which I thought was pretty clear by the context of people were racist against you until they realized you were american, which is the heart of my question - why is being american an acceptable form of whiteness to the people who were racist against you


You're assuming I'm white...think about that for a second.

I don't mean to be flippant, I really mean to give it a thought as to why you made the assumption.


This is fascinating. I assumed the same, because most people involved in tech are white, and our brains are very good at generalizing and following patterns. In fact, I assumed you are white, male, 25-35, employed in tech.

Until I read the part about BKK police giving you physical abuse, then I figured you might be non-white because countries outside US are far more racist, generally speaking, than the US. The less developed a country is, the more openly racist it gets (the rich ones can also be racist but do so more covertly). And generally speaking racism against whites is not very common, because (generally) whites bring money and are (generally) considered a positive thing to have around. There are exceptions like maybe American troops in Okinawa but we’re talking about generalizations here.

I now think you are Asian, because that’s the second large demographic in tech. My other assumptions still apply.

Apologies for the unsolicited reply here, I just wanted to make N>1 as far as preconceptions go.


No worries, mate. It's always good to take a step back and challenge our assumptions about the person on the other side of the monitor. When you are the majority in a given situation, it's easy to have that mentally become the "default".

I'm actually a multi-generational mixed person. Both my parents and all four of my grandparents are "multi-racial" -- based on the current definitions of race. But that's a whole different conversation. Don't want to give out any more details than that for privacy reasons.


because the whole context was around a farang tax that you clarified was for white people, not just any foreigners - I see now that you never said you had to pay that tax, but this isn't some "hidden racism" twitter keeps going on about. I would've never put any thought to what you looked like if the whole context wasn't made about something exclusive to white people.

I'm curious, when people misunderstand some context on the internet that has to do with race - do you often find yourself thinking it has racist undertones?


Here is my point. OP said "farang tax". Farang == white foreigner. This is the Thai language and not something I'm making up. So OP is essentially saying a "white foreigner tax". I wanted to make it clear that it's better to call it a "foreigner tax" in order to be more inclusive (and correct) -- because that's how the "tax" is applied.

I don't see how this is confusing. Also, I never clarified any tax as being for white people. The only thing I clarified was that the word "farang" is typically used excluisively for white foreigners.

I have no comment on the absurdity of your last sentence, btw.


> I have no comment on the absurdity of your last sentence, btw.

The only absurdity here is that instead of attempting to interpret my questions hospitably, you immediately went on the defensive and then refused again to address my question with a lovely touch of asking me to ponder deeply why I would mistakenly think you were white. I'm not sure what fantasy land you live in, but the people I talk too aren't just sitting at their keyboards hoping everyone on the other end is white.

It's pretty gross that I replied with the most sincere curiosity and ended up with some not-so-veiled racism implications.


Hi Toolz,

I was also confused. The first paragraph requires clarification.

Specifically what you mentioned: the farang tax mostly applying to white foreigners followed by an anecdote of an incident of the farang tax in action. It biased me to believe the commenter was indeed, white.

The weird reply back when you asked for clarification was obviously immature and absurd. The second Expat chiming in was not helpful either - as if that person’s understanding is some global expert consensus on the comment and you’re a bizarre 5 sigma deviation.

Maybe they’re expats for good reason - they can’t communicate effectively on even the simplest of little things (with peer commenters). So what do they screw up?


You clearly missed my point. I was saying that OP should not call it "farang tax" and that they should call it "foreigner tax". The reason is that "farang" means "white foreigner". However, the tax is applied to all foreigners, not just white people.

I can only assume the confusion arose from the person in question either:

1. not being a native English speaker

2. assuming I was white

Hope that clears things up. I really don't know how I can make this any clearer aside from the lot of us hoping on a plane to BKK and you experience the place yourselves.


Yeah, sometimes it's best to just ignore people at the first sign of hostility. If I had done that here I could've avoided being called a racist, which would've been nice. Oh well, it's hard to tell when the person on the other end is going to engage in good faith or not.


Never called you a racist. Not even sure where you are getting that from either. You simply misunderstood what I said -- based on your own preconceived notions.

When I tried to explain (several times), instead of taking a step back and trying to understand -- you doubled down on your own misunderstanding and accused me of seeing racist undertones everywhere.

Again, I can only assume English isn't your native language, hence the confusion.


Being white farang and having lived in Thailand for 6 years now I immediately got what he was saying.

Maybe you should consider you might not have the full context of the conversation instead of launching into a rant.

The farang only for white people is something that just comes up here sometimes. At one point we tried to get the Thai colleagues to call black expats "farang dam". Didn't catch on haha.

Foreigner tax is the correct way to call it because pricing in national parks is tied to citizenship not race


I'm also scratching my head as to what was confusing about what I said. Boggles the mind. I can only assume English isn't their native language.


So you lived there for 6 years and didn’t require clarification? Are you impressed by your own comprehension?

I am not.


A nice neighborhood in Mexico City is roughly as safe as a nice neighborhood in an average city in the US.

Outside of there, it's a crapshoot. Could be very safe, could be VERY unsafe... In a way you don't see in many parts of the US or EU.


I’m very interested in moving to Mexico City part time. Can you list some nice neighborhoods and their characteristics? Or point me to somewhere on the web with this information? Thanks in advance!


Hipodromo, La Condesa, Roma, & Roma Norte are in the center of town and all very nice, tons of places to get food & go out and shop and anything you would want. Most parts are quite pretty by US standards for a city...

Coyoacán is VERY beautiful, but there's not as much to do over there for an expat. It's still really nice.


Most expats stay in Roma Norte or Condesa. Polanco Is also safe as well a Coyoacán but not many expats stay/live in these areas.

Condesa is considered the more Hipstery part of the city, nightlife and everything.

Polanco is more of an upscale, very international type of vibe.

Roma Norte is more artsy imo but similar to Condesa as well. Plenty of good food as well.

Coyoacán is more traditional Mexican.


Many SEA countries are effectively third world. It’s no wonder they have to go to Thailand for western-ish level medical care. The locals will not have the option at all so it’s not really a fair comparison


> with thailand i’ve heard stories of “farang prices” where you pay 10x for medical care compared to locals.

Which is still next to nothing, isn't it?


Depends on your definition of nothing. Cheaper than America, obviously (which country isn’t for medical care?). It’s pricier than Vietnam, where I spent $500 for 2 nights of hospital stay in a private wing for a super bad fever.


I don't think that $100 for a tetanus injection is particularly cheap in Thailand.


As a farang, you SHOULD pay 10x local prices.


There's a balance. Let the tourism bring wealth, but let's not get absolutely mugged. A good deal is one where both sides are happy


UAE? Really? Is this some sort of satire? Because I'm honestly laughing.


The UAE gets a lot of expats because a firehose of money plus a low cost of living (taxes, cars, maids, eating out etc) compared to most anywhere in the Western world makes up for a lot of other issues.


Did they also ask the laborers from India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, etc.. how it's going in Dubai? Or they're not expats enough? More like.. migrant workers.


I'm surprised about the position of a country like Indonesia. It is ok, but it has a lot of drawbacks for a foreigner: religiously integrist country where you can easily have issues for normal things for westerners. Food and water sanitary conditions that are not very good and can get you sick easily. Like in India.

Maybe if for them Indonesia is Bali, that is ok, but the rest of Indonesia would not be on my top even not in the worst also. Just average.


what is an "expat"? an immigrant? migrant? a special kind of immigrant? hm...


Technically (as far as I know) 'expat' was (supposed to be) used for people who were temporarily relocated to a different country. Even for a longer period. Think someone who's got a longer consulting contract and the big corporation is sending them abroad for a year. So someone who doesn't have the intention to immigrate. Including blue collar workers, regardless of social class.

But nowadays, it's usually high income immigrant westerners who don't want to be considered 'immigrants' because that's for <whisper> poor people.

After I've dealt with the US immigration processes years ago, I just call everyone who lives in a different country an 'alien'. Fuck this doublespeak.

This article actually features the company which published the 'study': https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20170119-who-should-be-... See if you can ignore the neocolonial tone and figure out expat vs immigrant vs migrant.


I noticed this weird doublespeak as well. I noticed that in Poland (where I live), permanent residents from the "west" refer to themselves as "expats" while working in the same office, same position, side by side with ukrainian "immigrants". Weird.


Poor country to rich country: "immigrant".

Rich country to anywhere: "expat".

Historically, though, immigrants were permanent while expats were expected to go back at some point.


Oh I got another one! If you're from a rich place, you're an "expat", but if you're from a poor country, you're a "guest worker".


Could it be that you and your countrymen are expats, or do the Ukranians also consider themselves to be immigrants?


Are you richer than the average local at time of entry? Expat. Poorer? Immigrant.

Or at least that's what matches the usage I've seen the best.


You’re an expat if you’re white, otherwise you’re an immigrant.


The internet loves to make everything about race, but no.

Expat = temporary

Immigrant = permanent


Not true. I live in Cyprus where a lot of British pensioners move here permanently, buy small properties, some setup local businesses too. They call themselves expats. Aren't they really immigrants since they moved permanently by your definition?


Not really. For example UAE is on the list as a top destination for expats. However, laborers from poor countries would probably have a different view on things in terms of career advancement or cultural integration. They're not permanent. I mean if your 'owner' holds your passport hostage you're more permanent than temporary. They're not really 'expats' in the context of the 'study'.


Are you arguing foreign workers in UAE are "immigrants"? They aren't.

And sure, lower income foreign workers might have it worse than rich foreign workers, but they still come for the benefits.


> Are you arguing foreign workers in UAE are "immigrants"? They aren't.

No, I'm saying exactly the opposite. They aren't, they're non-immigrant temporary workers, thus technically 'expats'. However, they're more often referred to as 'migrant workers' and this report, for example, does not include them.

Another example is Mexico. There are a couple hundred thousand Americans living and working in Mexico. They're considered expats. But a Mexican temporary visa holder is considered either a migrant worker or a legal alien.


I mean they are "expats". Poorly paid expats, but expats none the less.


The argument is that by your definition temporary foreign workers in the UAE are expats, since they are not immigrants.

This report, however, does not appear to include them in their survey, suggesting a mismatch between your definition, and that used by an organization which claims to be "the largest global expat network" with "4.5 million members."

Indeed, you'll be hard pressed to find poor temporary workers from less developed described as "expats".

For example, I've noticed few people refer to the ~200K low-skilled temporary Mexican laborers in the US under the H-2A visa as "expats", even though they fit your definition.

I've further noticed that "illegal immigrant" is used even for people who intend only temporary residence in the destination country.


Not really, temporary farm workers in US are called immigrants. People on temporary visas are called immigrants in US, Canada and UK. Unless of course they’re European expats on the same visas. The textbook definition may suggest what you’re saying but the cultural usage is absolutely not that.


I mean, H1-B workers are called immigrants by the USCIS as well. But they call themselves expats.


It is an abbreviation of an expatriate, a person who lives outside their native country.

"American expatriates in London"

It had generally been used for retired people, but remote (pandemic) workers have greatly expanded the word's meaning and usage.


Interesting, I’ve only heard it used for retirees by Americans, and only recently; it’s traditionally meant people working (or living) overseas but who figure they’ll go home at some point.


Biggest difference: immigrant learns the language of the host country.


Sad but true. Some nationalities seem to be very against integration with local culture.


I think it’s a by-word for ‘American with more money than sense’, which seems redundant now that I type it.


The takeaway I'm seeing is most expats seem happy with their lives, with only Kuwait having more people unhappy than happy. Somewhat surprising, but I guess most people wouldn't expatriate unless they assumed they'd be happy.


Is it possible to see the full list with explanations and not just the summary of the top / bottom five?

UK is listed as 37 and I’d love to know why.


the full report is here:

https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/

the UK scores below median on Quality of Life (Travel & Transit, Environment & Climate, Leisure Options, Health & Well-Being, Safety & Security) and Ease of Settling In (Local Friendliness, Finding Friends, Culture & Welcome), as well as Salary & Job Security and Work & Leisure.

it's especially low on Personal Finance (50) and Housing (42)

compare that to germany:

high on Quality of Life and Working Abroad (Career Prospects, Salary & Job Security, Work & Leisure, Work Culture & Satisfaction), median on Personal Finance, but extremely low on Ease of Settling In and on Expat Essentials (Digital Life, Admin Topics, Housing, Language)

the low score on ease of settling in is pretty much why i left germany.


Thank you so much, that’s extremely helpful. Can I ask where you’re from and if you returned there or went somewhere else after Germany?

My wife and I are American but we’re in the UK now, just to see how we like it before committing to a permanent move. We’ve also looked at Germany but I’ve struggled with the language, and although she’s conversationally fluent, I feel like forming deep friendships would be difficult.


one thing i would try is to find friends there before you settle: find groups/communities of interest and join them, travel to go to meetups and conferences. forming deep friendships is always a challenge. we had these discussions on HN before.

my personal experience is that i went wherever i could find a job and i stayed there as long as the job would keep me unless i found another reason to stay. i am happy to share more details by email. (see my profile)


Funny that we the US is in the middle. I’m surprised Germany ranks so low; I enjoyed it there.


The whole list is a bit dodgy, doesn't match my experiences either.


I get why Japan is near the bottom for some people but, as someone that's lived there for a while > 10yrs, I found the paragraph describing the problems kind of ridiculous

> Expats find it hard to pay without cash (20% vs. 8% globally)

So what? It's safe to carry cash in Japan and you can get cash at every 7/11 of which there is almost always one within 4 minutes walking distance

> and are unhappy with the availability of government services online (35% vs. 21% globally).

I have pretty much never needed government services in my life. That would be slightly inconvenient for the once every 2 or 3 years I'd have to interact with the government seems like an extremely trivial point and nothing to do with actual quality of life

> The country also lands in the bottom 10 for both the Ease of Settling In (45th)

True for many

> — 30% find it hard to get used to the local culture (vs. 19% globally)

Yea, you need to speak Japanese. You can get by but it's not like moving to Scandinavia or Western Europe where many countries you can trivially get by without speaking the local language. You can add Singapore and maybe Malaysia to that list but Taiwan being near the top? I'd expect the same there. Either you learn Mandarin or life is going to be lonely and you'll be left out of most stuff.

> Moreover, 25% feel they are not fairly paid for their work (vs. 20% globally).

This is very true. Engineers for example probably have a cap of $80k year unless you work for a western company.


The biggest problem with Japan is that as a gaijin (gomen, gaiKOKUjin) you'll never really be accepted there, any more than a Turk would be accepted in Germany.

That and the economic bomb that everyone keeps kicking down the road...


The lack of digital government services has been a real pain for me. I've often ended up in situations where I had to drive around to a bunch of different places to get official documents printed out and stamped for me. In general there's also a lot of situations where you have to fill out a bunch of forms with information they already should have.

In Sweden those sort of things can be handled online. And I don't even remember the last time I had to fill out a form with my information there because it just happens automatically with the personal number system.

I definitely hate this part about Japan. Then there's other crap like how services often won't accept bank account names registered with roman characters. But banks here won't allow you to open an account unless the account name matches your immigration card exactly, so if your name is written in roman characters then you are stuck with that, which basically creates a catch 22 type of situation.

Finally, digital services here, especially the public ones are typically abysmal.

In a nutshell, dealing with Japanese authorities and their apps and forms and stamps and whatnot feels like you are interfacing with a manual, paper based system from the 60's but with the added unpleasantness of user hostile apps and webservices that seem to have been built using a 90's tech stack even though they just came out in the last few years.


> This is very true. Engineers for example probably have a cap of $80k year unless you work for a western company.

Not sure what conversion rate you used (8M or 10M JPY?) but in my 5 years of living here this cap has been increasing steadily. As a senior you would have been laughed at if you asked for $80k 5 years ago but today it's the median for top local companies.


Taiwan is the same as Japan in needing to carry cash, but it's not listed as a negative, weird? I imagine it's the same for many other countries on the list, like Indonesia and Mexico, so not sure why Japan is called out.


After Carlos Ghosn, the criminal justice system is a deal-breaker.


The cash situation changed rapidly since 2019, you can get very far without any if you desire.


Cash is just annoying. I don't want to carry it regardless of safety.


Summary:

• Mexico, Indonesia, Taiwan, Portugal, Spain, the UAE, Vietnam, Thailand, Australia, and Singapore are the best destinations for expats in 2022.

• The worst destinations for expats are Kuwait (52nd), New Zealand, Hong Kong, Cyprus, Luxembourg, Japan, South Africa, Turkey, Italy, and Malta (43rd).


While Indonesia is cheap and has done interesting places last time I checked they were discriminating even own citizens based on religion or did they stop this? Also expect dangerous ferries/buses and smokers everywhere.

UAE with wife or as a woman, that was good one.

Australia with their fascist gov and COVID insanity on par with China? No thanks.

In Vietnam you will be cheated on every step unless you speak Vietnamese, as one expat told me you have basically 3 prices - local, foreigner and tourist price, you can move from tourist to foreigner price but it's hard to get to local price. Honestly I tried the local prices by looking how much locals pay and some sellers straight up refuse, sometimes you win, but it's very very tiring. On the bright side at least they are not smiling while cheating you (like in Thailand) so you can see at least honesty in their face and stay vigilant.


> Australia with their fascist gov and COVID insanity on par with China? No thanks.

Haha! Sounds like we're better off without you, mate. Keep on entertaining from afar though.


> insanity

I am not sure which place revealed to be spared from that (probably Switzerland, Uruguay and Sweden - not sure at all).


and yet in Cyprus we have towns full of expats:

Paphos - British Limassol - Russians


Why is Italy so low??


And what's wrong with New Zealand?


We have lower salaries and higher living costs compared to other countries. That's fair and true.

The bit about a "lack of culture and nightlife" is... interesting. What kinda culture were they looking for?

The criticism that it's hard to get a job implies that the people answering it aren't coming in on skilled migrant visas, as those require an employer to a) sponsor you and b) document that they weren't able to fill your role in NZ, so you'd already have a job.

So it makes me wonder if the people answering it had come over on student visas that became residency visas after completing their studies, in which case you're competing with all the other graduates (and we have had problems with private training establishments that were effectively set up to sell visas, so the "level 6 diploma in Business" you acquire from them has no value in the job market.


Low pay, high living costs, very little going on, very isolated from the rest of the world and people are cliquey.

If you can afford the premium, really like outdoors stuff and want a relaxed lifestyle then it's a good place to be, otherwise I think it's pretty bad.

Things you would take for granted in many other parts of the world are either very expensive or just don't exist. There's also much less variety of things because it's a small place.


The very fact Kiwis flee to Australia for better pay and lower cost of living should tell you something.






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