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> The web won.

I don't think so. Either way the statements are rife with soft terminology, but I'll use raw traffic as my metric for dominance in the functional space.

https://www.perficient.com/insights/research-hub/mobile-vs-d....

The majority of traffic is mobile and apps still rule that platform due to both a superior experience and better interfaces. The trend is clear and ongoing, so I'm not sure why people think the web is still the king. The reasons websites ask you to install the app is because the phone makes that simple when using a phone browser, not because they are implying it will be a better experience for a desktop user.

As you mentioned, content creation tools are almost exclusively PC and so the individuals who are creators (like anyone on this forum) are unconsciously biased toward PCs. I really hate trying to use my phone for anything, because of this bias. My wife and most of my family (excepting my dad) has the opposite experience.




I think it's simpler than that:

An app icon on a user's screen is the equivalent of a desktop bookmark icon shortcut circa 1998, like 'browser toolbar helpers' would 'helpfully install' - things that would more often be seen as malware today.

Notifications pushed to the user the equivalent of constant marketing from subscribed email lists. Constant ~~marketing~~ 'experience'. Pretty close to spam today; such email is depreciated to another tab even in places like GMail.

In-app analytics tracking finger movements, clicks, click times, pretty close to what would have been considered spyware 2 decades ago.

But there are nicer terms now. 'Download the app', 'Notifications/Engagement' and 'Help us improve your experience'. The user is led to believe they're more in control. I feel it's near peak, but I'm not calling it.


I don't know that a desktop icon is really considered malware. People still have tons of desktop shortcuts if they use a PC, and don't select the option to not have it even when provided it.


I'd say it's considered 'bloatware'....additional software (usually trialware) the OEM bundles with the PC to subsidize the cost. But considering that ostensibly legit trialware like Norton scare users with its threatening popups, it may as well be malware to some.


Not all desktop software with icons is bloatware?

It's been a while, but I remember Adobe software (e.g. Photoshop) doing desktop shortcuts by default, Steam & Epic Games-vended software doing desktop shortcuts by default, etc.


Counterpoint: LOVE LETTER FOR YOU.txt.vbs


How much app traffic by data volume is video and audio?

There are some natural divisions I'd make generally to Web activity:

- Document-oriented content: mostly-static text and images. This is the domain of the web browser.

- Multimedia: audio and visual. Here I vastly prefer an application which can natively manage, organise, queue, and filter content. I do make heavy use of a podcasting app, and occasionally listen to Internet radio. I hear some people may use music or video streaming tools.

- Commerce. Shopping really should be divorced from the browser for far too many reasons.

- Applications. Truly interactive tools. Where the line between "Web" and "App" lies specifically I'm not entirely sure, but I can see much of what's presently provided through JS being made browser-native (wins for consistency and familiarity, probably a loss at feature development, though this may not be a bad thing), and classing "App" as "requires programming and persistent data store".

How well that holds up / sells I can't really say, though I've been advocating this for very nearly a decade:

https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/256lxu/tabbed_...


>- Commerce. Shopping really should be divorced from the browser for far too many reasons.

What are those reasons? It seems to me that browsers are perfect for shopping as shopping is essentially browsing a product catalog. It's all basically document oriented content, static text and images, some short videos.

Sharing links is absolutely critical for shopping. Leaving product pages open for later is how many people research what they may want to buy. Product pages need to be indexed by search engines and be clickable by everyone, including on desktop.

All data lives on the server. There's little interactivity and no content creation. Offline use is rather pointless because the product database is on the server. There's no useful background activity. Notifications from shopping apps are mostly spam. Access to low level device functionality is neither necessary nor desirable.

There are far more shops than anyone wants apps. Desktop remains an important platform for shopping. So there needs to be a fully featured website anyway.

>- Applications

I think for applications it depends on where the data lives and whether desktop is an important platform. That's why essentially all business apps are web first unless their purpose is content creation and complex editing.

The real limitation of web apps is local data. There's no way for a web browser to reliably store data locally. Even though it sometimes looks as if you could use various forms of local data in a browser, on closer look it always turns out to be fragile, unreliable and only really useful as a cache.


Rationales:

1. Reading is not transactional or remunerative in most cases. There are exceptions (subscription-based content). Those might still be supported without going full-blown shopping, though in general I'd prefer alternate monetisation mechanisms.

2. Shopping involves payment methods and creates tremendous privacy concerns. Both of those are problematic in a generalised browser, to the extent that commerce sites are increasingly limiting which browsers they function with, which is to say, commerce is not a generalised Web capability. Payments functions could be removed from my generalised browser. The commerce-oriented app would have specific attention paid to security and privacy measures.

2a. My uparmoured Web browser using auto-deleting cookies, uMatrix, uBlock Origin, Ghostry, and other features to fight against surveillance and general Web annoyances plays poorly with most shopping sites as is. This means I've got to specifically remove armour to use such sites. This becomes more complicated when having to support others, at work or home, similarly.

2b. Information leakage between non-commercial browsing and commerce-based activity is a major concern and increasing threat. App-separation would provide a further firewall between the two.

3. A hypertext commerce platform could be URI based much as the present Web is. There are non-HTML URIs (ftp:// mail:// news:// doi:// ...). A "shop://" or "httpc://" transport (HTTP Commerce) would clearly distinguish shopping from other Web traffic and invoke the shopping application itself.

4. A possible risk would be that a large and well-resourced commerce provider might decide on delivering its own commerce app, or capture development of that app in much the same way as, hypothetically, a major Internet advertising entity might conceivably optimse a dominant Web browser as an advertising-delivery mechanism. These cases would have to be regulated by a conscientious, empowered, and principled competitions / anti-trust agency.

5. A standardised and capabilities-limited commerce application should reduce the use of dark patterns, or at least make them more difficult and apparent when employed.

Specification of a commerce-oriented application should reflect interests and concerns of vendors, shoppers, competition regulators, finance and payment processors, and advocates for groups of concern (the elderly, disabled, minorities, unbanked, etc.). The limited focus would make this far more tractable than for generalised Web browsers.


How do traffic numbers account for intentionally crippled web apps? I don’t really feel as if you understood or addressed the GP’s point. Consider Reddit mobile web vs app, the traffic numbers of course would show the app winning but this has nothing to do with the platforms...


If I’m reading this correctly this survey only focuses on web usage. They even go to the point where their no. 1 takeaway at the end is „design your mobile web site first“.

So I guess the web really did win, even on mobile.


~90% of the average site’s mobile traffic, as a rule, comes from in-app browsers.

Mobile users, as a rule, rarely open an internet browser, they are redirected there.

It’s become a glorified zen-mode type feature for articles or indie web stores at this point for a substantial part of the population, especially young people, at least on iOS.

This is a huge reason why “Open this in our app!1!” is a thing as well. The alternative isn’t browsing a mobile site through Safari, it’s using whatever social media app led you there in the first place.


>This is a huge reason why “Open this in our app!1!” is a thing as well. The alternative isn’t browsing a mobile site through Safari, it’s using whatever social media app led you there in the first place.

Yes. The popularity of Instagram and Pinterest for shopping is a direct reflection of how relatively hostile the web is from a UX perspective. I often find myself using Pinterest, rather than the web, to browse retailers, because it's typically a better experience. This is rather precarious situation for retailers to be in, imo, as it means that Pinterest/Instagram effectively become gatekeepers to their stores.

From this perspective, it's no wonder why these stores keep begging users to install their apps. I'm sure Ikea would much rather me use the Ikea app than Pinterest.

However, I don't think every store needs or should have an app. I wonder if it's possible to deploy boilerplate native app experiences, that don't require these retailers to have a whole native development team.


> The popularity of Instagram and Pinterest for shopping is a direct reflection of how relatively hostile the web is from a UX perspective.

You may be conflating two different things. IG and Pinterest are private firms with a financial interest in adding a big "SHOP" button to user-generated content. "The web" is not a monolith, so not all sites will be shopping-oriented. That means you may have to use a search engine if you want to find stuff to shop for. Pinterest can be one of those search engines.


wait... you're legitimately the first person I have ever heard of actually intentionally using pinterest. As far as I was concerned, it was entirely useless SEO garbage that infested google images...


So mobile OSes allow App authors to force a worse and more insecure browser model upon their users, sure. Those still are browsers using the web. The fact that they are wrapped in something doesn't invalidate the fact that the web is being used as intended.


> So I guess the web really did win, even on mobile.

Your math is incorrect because you failed to take into account that 90% of mobile sessions are in apps, and only 10% browsing - on mobile devices. With this we can do some math:

For simplicity, assume 100 sessions encompasses all mobile web

65% is 65 mobile web traffic.

35% is 35 desktop web traffic.

65 * 9 = 585 : all app usage (90% of mobile usage is app over web, commonly known).

585 + 65 = 650 : all mobile usage (app 90% and web 10%).

35+650 = 685 : desktop web, mobile web, app usages.

35/685 = ~5% of usage desktop web (think 10% of 685 then divide by 2)

100/685 ~14.5% : is web usage, from combined app and web usage.

App is still the dominant player in day to day usage, regardless of the parting message "design your mobile web site first", which is a funnel for the app anyway.


Personally, I'm wondering if the 'mobile first' stuff will reverse in 10-20 years when Millennials and GenZ start having eye trouble. I despise trying to do anything on a cellphone screen. They're just too small. A 12" tablet is about the smallest I can comfortably use.


You need better glasses, not those supermarket ones but real ones. Get your eyes checked by optometrist.


> The majority of traffic is mobile and apps still rule that platform due to both a superior experience and better interfaces.

There is no evidence of your second claim in the link. Only that mobile, as a platform, is more popular than desktop. Nothing about "native apps" being the preferred way to interact with the platform. This is an oft proffered point with no solid backing. Rather the opposite. Users rarely, if ever, install apps, but they go to websites.


You're subtly conflating "native app" vs "app" by using slightly different terminology. For the purposes of being exact, I'll assume you mean "app" - regardless if it's a hybrid with a webview or pure native apis.

> Users rarely, if ever, install apps

My local car wash now has an app and my wife promptly installed it, because of some vague rewards tracking.

The vast majority of mobile usage is through apps. That's a fact. This is primarily because of the low bar to adoption (click a link from a QR code/click an icon) paired with the expectation that the experience will be better than a website. If the previous website experience was bad, it's almost an instant conversion (hence the prompts to "install the app" before the user might find the web UI too problematic).

Mobile users prefer apps (and probably trust them more) than the browser, on a mobile platform. You can say it's baseless supposition, but that's ignoring the existing evidence that companies have done (and continue to do) over the last decade. Find any company or data that contradicts that and a lot of people would be interested to see it, because nobody has for almost a decade. I can't be sure why you think that someone would consider the web to have a better experience/UI, but it doesn't matter.


> You're subtly conflating "native app" vs "app" by using slightly different terminology. For the purposes of being exact, I'll assume you mean "app" - regardless if it's a hybrid with a webview or pure native apis.

It's not a conflation, it's intentional because it is what the parent poster claimed. I agree that there is more to it.

> My local car wash now has an app and my wife promptly installed it, because of some vague rewards tracking.

Your wife's anecdote doesn't match industry trends

https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/25/majority-of-u-s-consumers-...

I can also match with anecdotes of users intentionally avoiding the app in favor of the mobile site for linked in, Reddit, etc, despite the constant intentionally of crippling the mobile web experience simply because the app is so invasive. Can I have access to your contacts for no good reason? Btw, we also snoop your clipboard. Basically, I want to take over your phone so you can see a message...

App store conversion rates are low. If you do get it installed many users only use it once. Most people just won't pay for apps, various reasons but the race to the bottom and feeding off user data and eyeballs has pretty much had a full cycle now.

If you are a company trying to get off the ground with a software product these are tough trends to fight.


> It's not a conflation

It is. You used slightly different phrasing, trying to broaden the conversation to act like it's part of a refutation of points being brought by who you respond to.

> > Users rarely, if ever, install apps

> I can also match with anecdotes of users intentionally avoiding the app in favor of the mobile site for

This is derailing..again. I was bringing up an experience that is familiar to anyone who has friends & family (someone who install every app they can). Matching anecdotes adds nothing, as you just want to argue rather than try to understand how your perceptions are biased against reality.

App usage dwarfs web usage because someone installed the app. You're just wrong and I can't tell if it's disingenuous. This discussion is not worth working around your constant attempts to avoid the points at hand and I will have to assume you're just another unintentional luddite.

> The majority of traffic is mobile and apps still rule that platform due to both a superior experience and better interfaces.

To the point of UI superiority (you know, the original contention between us), it's trivial to account for trying to put a url in to a mobile device vs an icon for an app. That alone is a superior UI. The app gives a better experience, on average.

https://digitalmarketing.temple.edu/bpalestino/2019/07/17/mo...

Gl with whatever.




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