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This is delightful! As someone with urban planning background, my friends often stubbornly bring up in the conversation that "why doesn't the city just build more lanes on the roads?". I have to explain how that's not how it works and the more lanes cause more turbulence.

You can try it with this! In one of the road scenarios make lots of lanes. Then give the system a "shock". I.e. move one of the sliders until you cause a traffic, then move it back. See how long it takes for it to clear up. The problem is that cars start changing lanes and cause mayhem. Lots of failure of this kind in the USA.




If you let the system play and then just change the politeness so that many cars switch lanes you create turbulence and the average speed drops down. I found it very interesting to see.


There are lots of options like express lanes or secondary roads.

On the other hand hitting Georgia on 95 south really shows the advantage of adding a third lane. Hard to argue with that example.


It shows the short term advantages of adding a lane. It pays no mind to what sort of development the new, higher traffic flow will bring, and how that will eventually doom that third lane addition to be just as congested as before. The solution isn’t adding more capacity to roads, it’s getting more people and things off the roads and onto alternative means of transportation.


Make alternative means better (chiefly faster or overall cheaper) and people will adopt them. People might not all be geniuses, but they’re not stupid.


Add the externalities to the cost of transport and then you can discuss the cost


Corollary: when people can’t see the externalities, they reach decisions that logically ignore them.


You're assuming that satisfying demand is not a good. You're also arguing that we should wear a hair-shirt until the rapture. (If the alternatives can't compete with relatively good traffic, if they're only used when nothing else works, how good are they.)


> On the other hand hitting Georgia on 95 south really shows the advantage of adding a third lane. Hard to argue with that example.

Road widening projects are usually pretty easy to argue against, though winning these arguments is usually based on emotions and political clout and not an actual rational perspective.

A couple questions that are always good to ask is:

1) When the road was built or last expanded, was it clogged with drivers right away?

2) Does the extension narrow back to fewer lanes at some point?

Give any road extension a couple of years and drivers will be asking for an additional lane on that same road, and/or you’ll be moving the target to the next ‘bottleneck’ down the line.


So why have two lanes over 1 lane? If you have two roads merging for a few miles then splitting, going to one lane will cause a bottleneck

Obviously there is a point where an extra lane is useful and a point where dropping a lane is useful.

Other questions you ask - when the road was built did traffic in nearby roads drop, did you get fewer cars rat-running through residential areas, is the increased traffic because of closure of rat runs making travel in the congested freeway more attractive despite the lack of capacity.

There’s other long term questions too, did the freeway allow people to live further from their destination, encourage longer or more frequent journeys, although the answer to that could be positive or negative depending on your viewpoint. Eventually you get to asking “is the motor car a good thing or a bad thing”.


That would be another instance of the Braess paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox#Traffic), correct?


I haven't heard about more Lanes causing more turbulence, but I would bet on it at face value.

The main argument for not widening roads is that it creates induced-demand for more traffic on general, which doesn't solve your problem.


Braess's paradox?


This is unintuitive and quite interesting. Whats your background?


> urban planning background

He just said it.

The argument that I usually hear against more lanes is induced demand, but when I looked at some of the data this problem was very overblown. Going from 2 -> 3 or 3 -> 4. This is quite different from increasing 5 lanes to 6 though, then I can imagine it becomes chaotic and other problems such as the ones mentioned start to dominate.


Well, the fixed parameter is people's tolerance for driving time. Everything else (including number of users) will scale up practically indefinitely.

So if you give people more capacity, they will use it until they're back to their trip time tolerance, which is roughly at the same level of congestion.

Is that not the case?


It is, in the case where roads are free to use.

Price is an extremely effective means of restoring flow to a congested system. Usually, how this works out is that a toll is placed on, say, an existing bridge to finance a parallel or upgraded replacement, and then magically traffic tends to disappear to the point where the new span is no longer needed.

Of course, tolling untolled roads is extremely unpopular.


>Price is an extremely effective means of restoring flow to a congested system.

That's like saying famine is a great way of dealing with overpopulation.

You're fundamentally taking a small subgroup (the trips that are justified despite the increased cost) and saying "look how good things are for them" while completely ignoring everything not in that subgroup. By that same (asinine) logic the SF housing market is great for homeowners.

At best toll roads function as fuzzy rationing (and that isn't great either) where the masses only take the most critical trips.


Roads don’t come for free, and user fees are a very widely used method of paying for them.

Some of the trips brought on by induced demand is just shuffling around of economic activity that would’ve happened elsewhere.

———

You may not like that tolls can re-establish speeds on congested roads, but every solution has drawbacks, including building more free roads.


Right, of course! Price is a fantastic general way to reduce demand for limited resources so it matches supply.

(It's also a great way to ensure the rich get richer, but that doesn't detract from your point.)


No, because the limit isn't driving time, it is things they wany to do. Induced demand is people who can finally do something better. The only time you are right is when you are so far behind that people who used to stay home pick a second best thing because what they really want still isn't in their time tolerance.

Note that building roads is in general not the rigjt answer, build good transit so they don't drive is much cheaper in the long run.


As an addendum:

Induced demand happens in all types of transportation, but cars are so space inefficient relative to other modes that it does not take a whole lot to get back to where you started, whereas the same cannot really be said of say a subway.


I wish we could put the induced demand idea to bed. There are a finite number of people so eventually more roads will help.

There are a certain class of ideas that make people feel superior in conversation so they just stick around no matter how true.


People are not finite. They change addresses, have kids, get different jobs, etc. The flows of people shift around over time, and the transportation infrastructure is one factor that influences those flow patterns.


“Eventually” = all pavable land is dedicated to roads or parking

I feel superior because I also have an urban planning background, and I’ve literally done the reading on this.


I don't take issue with the concept of induced demand but when people trot it out like it's a bad thing and is a reason not to build something it makes me want to buy a bulldozer and a welder and pay them a house call.

Trips are a good thing. They're economic activity. They're people going to visit friends/family. Each trip is a case where the benefit outweighed the cost of the trip.

The really infuriating part is that 99.999% (yes, 5 9s) of people who complain about induced demand on roads talk about it like it's a good thing when the context is literally any other form of infrastructure. You can induce demand for parks and subways by carpet bombing a city with them too or making the existing ones more attractive. The concept isn't just for public infrastructure. All sorts of business can induce a lot of demand if you plop it down in the right spot where a lot of potential customers were letting the need go unfilled because the opportunity cost of the next existing best option was too high.


> Trips are a good thing. They're economic activity.

Spoken like a true capitalist. Not all "economic activity" is good.

Sitting in traffic driving to an out-of-town shopping centre to buy groceries because there are no local shops in walking distance may be economic activity, but I'd struggle to call these boring, wasteful trips I'm forced to make a good thing. More like an irritating waste of time and gas.


If people's local options didn't suck they wouldn't travel. Time isn't free, nobody gets more of it and people love convenience.

The fact that the local grocer has to compete with the out of town grocer may be derided by the whole foods crowd but it's a boon for the price sensitive masses.

If the local grocer doesn't exist then why? It's either going to boil down to the population density not supporting it or local regulatory oddities making the business economically non-viable.


Often times I feel like every HN comment is just restating the is-ought problem but with $TECH or $MONEY jargon. This is another one of those times.


I have a neighborhood grocer in easy walking distance. The best way I could describe it is “imagine a tiny Whole Foods, except more expensive”.

So, we drive to the neighboring, more suburban town to grocery shop.


There is also another mechanism.

You can model traffic as something resembling a network flow problem. You have many individual drivers choosing routes, often using a greedy algorithm without full awareness of traffic conditions. If you add more capacity somewhere, some drivers will start making different choices. That could make existing bottlenecks worse, reducing overall throughput.

On the other hand, if you have a good central traffic planner that gives everyone a route, adding more capacity will never reduce throughput. Some drivers may just get routes that are suboptimal from their perspective.

This is the expected outcome of any system where people make individual choices.


I meant educational degree. What educational degree covers traffic analysis as part of the curriculum. I think civil engineering comes close but i am not sure.


If you'd like to see similarly counterintuitive behavior in computer-land, check out Bélády's anomaly (increasing the number of pages in memory results in more page faults, not less for the FIFO page replacement strategy): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9l%C3%A1dy%27s_anomaly




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