My own major debilating depression was such that I couldn't get out of bed other than to use the toilet. Worse than that I could see no reason to get out of bed and didn't care to get out of bed. Taking a shower and getting dressed was out of the question. I knew the strain I was causing in my family, but since I didn't feel anything, I couldn't feel enough empathy for them to do anything about it. I knew I used to love them, but that seemed a long time ago and there was no hope of ever feeling again. I thought about suicide often, but my inability to get motivated prevented me from carrying it out. I once had a bounce of energy so I started planning to kill myself and the weird thing was, that I felt the happiest I had ever felt in my life. It was such a feeling of peace and joy that it would soon be over.
Fortunately for me, my family would not tolerate me in this condition and forced to me to get out of bed and dragged me to doctors and checked me into mental health units until we found the right doctor who perscribed the right medication that worked. Turns out typical anti-depressants don't work on me because I am bipolar and was experiencing bipolar depression.
It's been three years of recovery now and I am very happy. I take my quatiepine every night and get the sleep I need so I don't relaspe into mania and then depression.
My family is not sophisticated about mental illness. They would rather not think about it. But the one thing they did is to refuse to let me remain in that state and forced me to take action.
Hey, you are not alone with BP and there is a really great BP discord server. We have real support groups running two times a day. I encourage everyone with BP to join it. https://discord.gg/rbipolar2
Anyone who reads this who also knows a community for Borderline people, I'd appreciate it! I'm one of the few Borderline people I know who sought out therapy (most actively reject it, choosing to believe the lies our mind tells us that our problems are the problems of others) and seeking a community of those so afflicted also in recovery.
I have a question regarding crippling depression. When I hit the wall, I never got fully bed ridden, I was able to force myself out (also the fact that my heart couldn't operate well when horizontal gave me another reason). I had to mentally plan, calculate and monitor every move (moving one finger, grabbing a spoon) sluggishly. But at times my brain just ..shut. I would collapse on a table.. not due to fatigue or pain, not like fainting or narcolepsia, it was something else, like neurological surrendering because there was no notion of aim anymore. Has it happened to you that way ? or anyone else ? It's long gone but still I'm unsurprisingly curious.
Yes, I've experienced that while locked up in the psyche ward. My brain just shut down. I would stare at the food at the end of my fork for what seemed like 10's of minutes. I didn't care. I knew I was in a safe place so I just went with it. It feels like the biochemical equivalent of a dead battery. They gave me a drug cocktail (I don't know what) that restored me to normal function.
Part of my motivation of writing my original comment was because I realized that the author of the article made a mistake. I'm not blaming the author because I've made the same mistake and I've seen it made often. I never really thought about it much. The mistake is trying to explain depression in terms the non-depressed family could understand. He even used that common metaphor of being in a dark tunnel. Everyone can relate to being in a dark tunnel, right? That's the problem. Then they think of terms that they can relate to and are more tempted to blame the depressed person for not just "getting up" like they've done when they were in a dark tunnel.
It occurred to me without really being conscious of it that the correct way to describe depression is in terms they do not understand. That way they'd see depression correctly, as something really abnormal and serious. I wanted to show that the depressed person was incapable of thinking in any way helpful for others or themselves. I wanted them to see it like you might see a man sitting on the tracks when a train is approaching and not only refusing to move, but seeming disinterested in it and almost content to die. It's shocking but it's true. It's so far out of the normal band, unlike the dark tunnel. Family are not powerless and should get into action. Push that man off the track!
I wasn't even staring void, I actually folded on the table. Biochemical dead battery is close, because it's really snappy like an on/off switch, but in my case it was also above the somatic layer. The idea in my mind just before was that "there's no more path to follow, no more things in the list, sorry... closing".
I had something like that during my worst depressive episode. I just collapsed on the table during work because I couldn't make myself do anything, including sitting.
> helpful to hear a story like this with a positive outcome
That's why I shared, because it's important for family and sufferers know that people do recover. I don't share under my real name, although I would like to, because some people are really frightened and prejudiced against bipolar people. Maybe from a bad experience. Not all bipolars get psychotic and think they're Jesus who can fly.
> Not all bipolars get psychotic and think they're Jesus who can fly.
Every once in a while a local paper somewhere runs an article about someone running down the street naked claiming they were Jesus. Dollars to doughnuts it's an undiagnosed bipolar patient having a psychotic episode. The flying is probably from Reefer Madness, I believe, but you were undoubtedly speaking in hyperbole to sarcastically feign sympathy for some idiot for irrationally fearing a bipolar patient like they were equivalent to the absurdly exaggerated pot-crazed teenager diving through a window to their death because they were so stoned they believed they were a chicken and could fly.
I just remembered an Onion post from a long ago that speaks to what I'm saying. People can and should do something even if the depressed person says to go away and leave them alone. Nobody wants to be rude or be a bother, but sometimes it's an emergency situation and people should give themselves permission to act.
Parents Of Suicide Victim Saw It Coming A Mile Away
I do have issues with my balance and motor control. If I get dehydrated, my blood sugar gets low, or I get too tired, I can lose the ability to drive. Not drive safely. Drive at all.
As a precaution, I always have extra food, water, and medication with me all the time. I plan trips so I don’t get into problems. And I have friends who will drive me home. Which I did have one do early in my treatment because I didn’t know all this yet.
My psychiatrist has me on additional medication twice a day to help with both motor control and muscle pain. Works pretty well.
I’ve learned that feeling one strand of muscle being tight in my arms or chest is a warning I’m getting dehydrated. At that point, I have about half an hour before I’ll start having problems.
Note: If you’re worried about my ability to drive. It’s not an issue. The symptoms are very obvious to me and it about an hour to get that bad. Anyone who is diabetic deals with the same kind of issues.
I think you'll be alright because you are very aware of your condition. That's really how I am too. I'm always checking in with myself like that song in The Big Lebowski - "The condition of my condition is good." There's aways Uber.
After I wrote my comment I thought of something weird. California sent me a tax bill every month. Every month I would ignore it and every month it would go up due to fines. Finally California siezed my bank account and cleaned it out, all $13,000, leaving me destitute. What I thought was weird was my reaction. I didn't care. I was watching it happen like watching a fly walk across the cieling - with complete indifference. So here's something else family can do - ask to see the bills.
I'm lucky I only need a low dose (50 mg) but you're right, the weight gain is a drag. At least I have the energy now to excercise, so I have normal problems, thank god.
I started having my suspicions after I read what I consider the best book about the bipolar experience called "The Loony Bin Trip" by the late Kate Millet. She got more manic than I but eventually I got more depressed than she. Interviews with psychiatrists are where it was diagnosed. It's helpful before those interviews to think back about periods of childhood when you felt really disconnected and out of it and then the times you had long periods of a really good mood. Then relay those experiences to the pdoc honestly and let them tell you what they think. It's important not to tell them what you think they want to hear or bend the truth so you get a "trendy" diagnosis. Even if you think you're story is boring and you feel you have to punch it up, resist that urge. Just tell them like it is and they might surprise you with a correct diagnosis that you never heard of or never expected. You can't get treated right until you get honest, and this includes about drug and alcohol consumption.
Not op, but I lived with a bipolar patient and had a relative who was schizoaffective, bipolar subtype. It's pretty common for bipolar patients to be misdiagnosed as having depression because mania or hypomania "feels good" and they don't seek treatment until they crash into a depressive episode. Or sometimes the mania just emerges later in life, as the course of the illness can vary and develop over the years, so maybe in the earlier phase it is more mistakable for unipolar depression. Lastly, antidepressants can trigger a manic episode in bipolar patients.
I see a lot of people talking about their bipolar diagnosis that has no or very little manic component. Why call it bipolar then? It's just cyclical major depression.
Because it's not just cyclical major depression (and there's no "just" to major depression either, but that's another rant). The diagnostic criteria for bipolar is that you have had at least one extended episode of mania or hypomania alongside a depressive episode, so you're not going to have the diagnosis unless you've been manic or hypomanic at some point. Although it may not be a major or dominant part of someone's presentation, mania or hypomania is nevertheless there and it effects what treatments are appropriate. Certain SSRI's may trigger off hypomania or mania in a bipolar patient, or simply be utterly ineffective, whereas in someone with cyclical major depression their response would be different. I'm bipolar II and spend roughly 1/4 to 1/3rd of my life meeting the criteria for major depression but very rarely have hypomanic episodes, and this was the case even before I was on lithium. Indeed I've gone for years in between major hypomanic episodes. But hoo boy! When they hit there is no mistaking them.
The other thing is that unlike with depression where you have to squint really hard to see much of an effect from most treatments, there are reasonably effective treatments for mania and hypomania, including good old lithium. So if you're being treated, while you might still suffer from regular bouts of depression, you'll likely have much reduced or even eliminated hypomanic or manic symptoms. So it's not unusual to see manic depressives who are treated showing very few manic symptoms for years on end.
It seems very dangerous to diagnose as such. Perhaps someone gets depressed every three months near end of quarter when their hours get cut?
Once someone demonstrably has issues with mania, yes, sure, I understand wanting to prevent it, but in a lot of cases I see very little separation from actual mania and "I felt good one day" (which if someone were depressed may feel very weird).
There's also strong arguments that one or two manic or hypomanic episodes are not enough evidence for a bipolar diagnosis.
> Perhaps someone gets depressed every three months near end of quarter when their hours get cut?
As someone who's been clinically depressed, your examples seem contrived to me. Are they based on any specific evidence, and if so, would you please share with the group?
There are different forms of Bipolar the most publicly known form is BP1 with Psychosis or what people call the manic component. People with BP2 (they never get really manic or get psychosis) have episodes that are called Hypomania which are debilitating for some even more than manic episodes. Here is a nice chart at how these hypomania episodes feel. https://imgur.com/a/9d0MrnD
I find it quite hard to not feel like I've lived or felt many of the symptoms on the second column.
Yet, when I searched for help the diagnosis seemed rushed and I decided not to take lithium. Years later after much therapy a new psi prescribed me an SSRI. It did wonders to my anxiety and subsided the thoughts of taking my life. But the main motivational problems persist.
Now I'm convinced to stop taking them because they make me kinda numb. It's like I miss crying or taking some issues as serious and important.
Then a question arises: just from taking SSRIs these two years and not going nuts, does that prove I'm not bipolar?
You don't have to go nuts to be bipolar. If you are not going manic I would look to see if you had self destructive tendencies in your past like quitting a job on a whim, getting erratic with your friends over nothing etc. If you have them combined with some of the other symptoms of the chart I would speak with a pdoc. Here is a great video describing the differences https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM7vf5HJxaQ
The diagnoses is most of the time not that easy. I was diagnosed really early with 16 after a suicide attempt with 13. I was diagnosed with MDD and ADHD at the time and the SSRI and amphetamines stimmed me right into my first manic episode with psychosis. If you are BP 1 and have psychosis while in a manic episode the diagnosis comes pretty fast. If you are BP 2 the diagnosis can be a lot harder because most of the time when people come out of a depressive episode they just feel "normal" before spiraling and getting erratic when in hypomania.
If this is how little understanding and empathy you have for mental illness, why not just keep out of discussions on the topic altogether? You’d make the world a marginally less bad place, if you did.
Ah yes, the classic “if you’re depressed, stop being depressed!” comment. Very helpful.
Your comment has inspired me: my brother broke his leg, and just now I texted him to stop being so fragile and just go out for a run. That ought to fix it!
Depression can also manifest in different ways. One way is anger, frustration, and anxiety. My wife’s depression was like this. She would come home from work, find one thing wrong with our apartment - there were dirty dishes in the sink, the clothes hadn’t been folded - and get angry with me for not having taken care of it.
The fact that I had cooked dinner and mopped the floors didn’t count.
She was angry with me probably 33-50% of the time. For about a year I tried to get out ahead of all the chores. But that’s impossible. Finally I realized that this wasn’t my fault. I wasn’t a bad partner. This was something in her head.
I could actually watch in real time as her own brain gaslit her. I’d pay her a compliment — “that dress looks nice” — and see a perceptible lag as her brain figured out how to turn it into an insult — “your other dresses aren’t nice.”
Eventually she recognized something was wrong and got help, but it took a couple of years. She is a completely different person now.
If you are the partner of a depressed person, your primary responsibility is to yourself. You have to stay sane. THEN, if you can, you can support and help your partner. But if you lose your own mental health you’re pretty much done.
My wife does this too. Granted, I’m diagnosed with ADHD, but when it comes to chores I’m kind of battle-hardened and quite diligent. I found trying to get ahead of chores very demoralizing and exhausting.
My wife hasn’t found a solution yet. She will sleep in until 11 on a weekend and get out of bed only to get upset with what hasn’t yet been done. She does very little with herself outside of work.
Like your wife, any compliment is actually an insult. That sort of dynamic definitely complicates kindling or maintaining romance.
I remind myself that it’s worse for her than it is for me. I’m also grateful for the challenges it has presented because in many ways, it has made me a better person.
I do wish she was happier. For her sake and for our kid’s sakes. Life isn’t always happy though, and it all takes work. Relationships take work. With the right framing and patience these things can be worked through.
Your last point about maintaining your own mental health really is key, though. I’ve crossed that line several times and essentially developed my own depression. It’s very dangerous.
I’ve found it very helpful to reflect on what I contribute, how hard I’m working towards my duties as a partner, and how my actions meet my intentions and so on. When I can honestly tell myself I’m doing well, just about the best I can manage, I let things slide. If it’s all I can do and it isn’t good enough for someone else, I’ll still reward myself for my efforts and let the depressive ire slide off my back. Most importantly though I’ll recognize my own efforts and make sure I don’t allow myself to be pulled into thinking it isn’t good enough.
You might be onto something. I know my friends and family hate to watch it, and my gut feelings often contradict my eventual actions. I know there are unhealthy elements at play, and I'm guilty of perpetuating some of it. These relationships aren't one sided.
I think a major complication is that she's somewhat manic in that she has highs and lows. Her lows are extremely low. When she's higher though, she can be very pleasant, kind, good to her family, etc.
I find it very difficult to nail down who she is on that spectrum, or where she might eventually land between those states, and how I can judge her or my decisions based on how things fluctuate so much.
The word gaslighting is absolutely accurate, though. She does this a lot and I wish she didn't. I'm vulnerable to it because I tend to blame myself and hesitate to engage in confrontation when I'm uncertain of myself.
We do have kids. If we didn't, I suspect I would have moved on my now. Perhaps she would have too.
There's an interesting set of perspectives around this type of problem in psychology. Whether you look at popular moderns like Alain de Botton, Jordan Peterson, ancient philosophers, religion, etc. there is a recurring theme that commitment to a person matters, and without it, things kind of fall apart.
I find this interesting and compelling. I don't expect life to be easy, and I think welcoming and anticipating challenges is very healthy. This sort of problem does straddle boundaries that I find difficult to define, though. At which point is enough enough? When do we decide the commitment is no longer warranted? How "easy" should a relationship be? If I leave, will I be foolish for seeking anything different?
Not to drag this on - I find the topic very fascinating for both personal and more general reasons. This is a problem I believe a lot of us face. If I can't sove it for myself, I'd be happy to understand it better if only to serve my friends or children eventually.
> People's characters don't usually change or improve.
I wish you were wrong, but this does seem to generally be true. There are exceptions of course, but it seems inadvisable to ever hope for it to happen. It takes incredible work, and it's work that a lot of people don't have the knowledge or tools to understand or work with. Personal growth is perhaps one of the greater challenges in life.
Anyway, thanks for the discourse. I appreciate the advice. I should make apoint to look out for myself more when I sense gaslighting is occurring.
Every piece of this rings so true to my own experience. My wife suffers clinical depression. It has been no joke the biggest challenge of my entire life.
When it is under control, life is great. When it's not, it's not. We've been through many meds and doctors and therapists.
We're in a decently stable place right now, but there's always a fear in the back of my mind "but for how long". Her previous meds worked for years and then just... Stopped. There was also the "fun" 6 months where she decided she didn't need then anymore - spoilers, she did.
We're currently quarantining because we both caught COVID over Christmas. We've both been sick for a solid week at this point and the cracks are kind of showing.
All this is to say you're not alone, and there are others. Hold in there.
Addendum: I’ve looked for like online support for people in this sort of relationship and come up largely short. I looked at BetterHelp but couldn’t really justify the cost. If anyone has any recommendations, I’d love to hear it.
I have a relative, who, every three or four years, decided that this time her bipolar disorder really was cured! And so she’d stop taking her medication and feel really, really good for a few months. And then the inevitable crash happened and she spent a few months in hospital.
The last time was different though. In her seventies, her body couldn’t take the strain again. And now she’s in a long term care facility for dementia, probably for the rest of her life — fortunately close for her husband. Moral of the story: if you want to go off your meds, make sure a doctor is keeping an eye on you. No matter how good the good times feel.
Mania affects judgement, sometimes severely. Bipolar people go off their meds because they think things will be better without them. Doctors put them on meds in the first place. I don’t think the advice of “just follow the plan” is going to work.
It took me years to get to real stability and meds still suck. The only reason I haven’t gone off my meds is I’m both high-functioning and very used to managing chronic medical problems. I know how to work with my Psychiatrist to manage my own medical care and decide what is and isn’t acceptable to me.
> Moral of the story: if you want to go off your meds, make sure a doctor is keeping an eye on you. No matter how good the good times feel.
It might just not work with bipolar. If bipolar person go manic, then reckless behavior, overconfidence, and unlimited optimism may beat any moral of this kind.
> online support for people in this sort of relationship
For sociological reasons that bear discussion, there is very little support for men in this situation. You may need to depend heavily on strong, close friends and family members. There is rarely a village to support a modern marriage.
Do not isolate yourself.
A relationship can be good or bad or some kind of stable compromise. When things go sour, one has to take a hard look at the risk to oneself in trying to personally support another person whom the psychiatric field may or may not be able to help. Then there is also the sunken cost of marriage, with home, children, and economic risks.
If I may offer a final personal observation... by the time you feel you are hurt by the situation, you have been hurting for a long time and worse than you realised.
Going to take a different, probably controversial perspective on this. (But this is my pseudo anon account so whatever;)
I had a similar thing happen with my long time girlfriend, 5+ years. She had a rough childhood and covid measures eventually made her suicidal as we graduated college. Eventually she got treatment, and is doing better (yay!).
This is all great other than the meds have now evened her out too much. She’s a totally different person and antidepressants have some side effects that have effected us.
Even if the meds are good for you, and they probably are, it was difficult to adjust to a whole new person after so long. I could even see either the side effects or who she is now ending our relationship.
We’re working on it, but i think in part the meds messed with our dynamic.
To affirm you experience, the meds can most certainly have the effects you are witnessing. There’s a few gems of the stories told in Dopamine Nation including of the author that touch on this topic about antidepressants and the side effects. It’s worth having her dose and medication examined much closer by the right professional in your country (I’m in the US and know the system best here). If you need any help navigating, I’m pretty easy to get in touch with and happy to help point you and/or your partner in the right direction along with any supplemental information that may help.
Wow, I went trough exactly the same thing. Even the examples were eerily similar: a couple dirty dishes on the sink would turn into an argument. A minor positive comment was an insult that would totally ruin her day.
I'm surprised by how many people go trough the same. This seems to be more widespread that one would assume.
I commend you on getting through that with her. What you describe sounds exactly like a subset of the behavior my ex-wife demonstrated, but she refused to acknowledge that she needed help and it ended in a very bad divorce. Takes a lot of mutual strength to work through all of that together.
I went through the exact same thing, except with a girlfriend not a wife. 100% agree that it’s important to keep your own mental health strong before you can help them. But that is exceptionally hard when they are trying to bring you down to their state at every opportunity.
I think this is a "misery loves company" sort of thing. When you're depressed you don't want people to try to help you be happier, and you don't really want to be happier in a deep sense - you want them to be depressed with you so you feel less alone. I think the fair analogy here would be someone in a wheelchair trying to get other people to use wheelchairs so they have someone to share the difficulty with.
That's a pretty bad take, in my opinion. Having spent the majority of my life in one level of depression or another, I don't say negative things and have a generally negative outlook because I want to drag other people down, it's just how everything looks to me[0]. You trying to cheer me up sounds to me like a salesman bullshitting me[1]. I know people don't like this, which is one reason I generally avoid other people when I'm at my worst. Seriously, if I'm avoiding you and you don't want to deal with negativity just leave me alone already. Don't ask about my day and get pissy because I tell you the (very negative) truth, unless you're just exchanging pleasantries and are ok with me straight up lying to you.
[0] There's an argument to be made for depressive realism that would say I'm pointing out how things really are, but I'm not going to make it because there's also thousands of years of philosophy that makes a compelling argument for reality not being so easy to pin down anyway.
[1] It occurs to me that the seemingly increasing rate of depression in a lot of developed nations may be due, like almost all of society's ills, to advertising. Advertising confronts us constantly trying to get us to do things we don't want to do, namely spending money on shit we don't need, and so we develop a defense mechanism. That mechanism takes the form of a contrarian inner voice that argues against the bullshit advertisement telling you you'll be happy if only you buy whatever it is it is selling, but the contrarian voice doesn't have an off switch and recognizes all the little sales pitches of every day life as a threat too.
Maybe I'm implying too much intentionality but that's not how I meant it. I'm not trying to say anyone truly _wants_ it to happen - just that it happens one way or another, whether subconsciously or as a second-order effect of something else.
I think we're in agreement that a depressed person generally doesn't want to be cheered up and won't be receptive to it, so you can be positive as much as you want and it won't do much.
I've been on both sides of this, and as the depressed person it seems most helpful to remember that I need to put in the extra effort to try to be positive especially when I don't want to. And as the partner it's helpful to remember that you need to create some separation so you don't get too pulled in and then are unable to help in any way.
Do you have a source? This is coming from how I feel when depressed so at least for me it is definitely not false. But that's just anecdotal and I don't have any studies to back it up. Just on intuition I have a hard time believing a depressed person would rather be surrounded by happy people they won't be able to relate to, then they would to have someone to share and talk about the bad feelings they're both experiencing.
I'd also add that (again maybe just for me) it's a way more helpful way to view it. It helps me recognize when I need to just go through the motions of being positive until I can get back to doing it naturally. It usually feels a lot better in the moment to focus on the negatives but somewhere in my head I know that's not going to help me.
> But if you lose your own mental health you’re pretty much done.
Happened to me. I started the relationship with zeal and willingness to help. I wished to make a difference, yet it can be incredibly taxing one one's emotions. You can very much be affected yourself.
> But if you lose your own mental health you’re pretty much done.
I sometimes feel I am at the edge of this then somehow I do some work I am happy with, see a friend, ride a bike or go for a swim and I am back from the edge.
The gas-lighting is sometimes so surreal I am speechless.
If you are the partner of a depressed person, your primary responsibility is to yourself. You have to stay sane. THEN, if you can, you can support and help your partner. But if you lose your own mental health you’re pretty much done.
This paragraph reminded me of the advice given regarding oxygen masks on planes. If you can't breathe, you're of no use to anyone, so sort out your own mask before helping others, etc. The fact they have to keep reminding us of this, though, is perhaps a demonstration that this doesn't come naturally to many.
God this sounds like my life right now. I’m glad your wife got help. How did you keep positive and healthy? And how did your wife come to see the problem?
In our particular case - she was a horse girl and earned a veterinary degree. When she started seeing our wonderful collie as a burden, she finally realized something was seriously wrong.
That understates what happened. She started wishing the dog would just go die.
That finally brought home to her that her thinking had dramatically changed and that it wasn't just situational, e.g. it wasn't that I was lazy. This is incredibly specific to our situation and I'm sure it doesn't help anyone else.
But the takeaway for us was that she had a come-to-Jesus moment that made her realize this was her problem, and she needed outside help. She did not realize she had clinical depression until that moment.
It helped that I was in graduate school and had a very supportive set of people around me. They valued me and let me know it.
As stated elsewhere on this thread - there aren't a lot of support options available for men in this situation.
Making someone "see the problem" is missing the point entirely. Firstly because often, people with depression are fully aware of how they are treating people. They simply can't help it.
Your role as a partner is to love and support them. You also, however, need to prioritize your own mental health and happiness. There is an extremely common relationship 'trap,' one I've lived through. You are in a relationship that is causing you personal distress and unhappiness -- but your love of the other person makes you feel trapped. You can see how much they are struggling, and can't bear to hurt them -- often because you are afraid of what may happen if you leave.
When you love someone with a debilitating illness, mental or otherwise, you need to decide whether you can accept the other person as they are. If you can, then you have to do that, and choose to stay with the person precisely as they are -- while having and enforcing healthy boundaries. If you cannot -- and often times there are extremely good and valid reasons why you cannot -- then you owe it to both of you to discuss this and potentially end the relationship. Sometimes such a conversation can be the spark of change for the other person, but often times it isn't, and that's okay. Staying in a relationship that is making you miserable is doing no one any benefit.
It's a supreme challenge with depression, but you cannot allow the depression your partner experiences to affect your own emotional health. The best tool for this is something called "loving detachment." I'd recommend you read about it, and about the concept of co-dependency in general(*). It was a life saver for me.
The worst relationship mistake you can make (after the obvious choices like affairs or so on) is being in a relationship with a mirage. Too many people have a false ideal of their partner -- their partner after they've been "cured" or "fixed" or "realized the problem" or "got clean" or whatever. You cannot have "you must change" as a condition of the relationship. Either the person will change or they won't, but staying in a relationship where you expect the other person will change is controlling and damaging. Are you in love with the person? Or with a made-up vision of the person you have in your head? Remember that love is unconditional.
The best thing I did in my relationship was spend a year (I'm not exaggerating) thinking about the realities of the situation, the options I had, the way my life could end up whether I stayed or leaved, and so on. It was an extremely difficult time and required the help of therapists, both personally and as a couple. In order to do this properly you need to admit divorce as a possible end -- and I don't mean the empty threats of divorce many of us make. For instance, the hardest session I ever had was when my personal therapist pushed me to walk through a concrete plan for leaving. Where would I go? Who would I tell? How would we split up our possessions? And so on. Making the possibility real is extremely important. In order to not feel trapped, you need to fully believe that leaving is an option.
In the end, the decision I made for myself was that I could accept my wife as she was. Almost immediately my mental wellbeing improved drastically. I no longer felt trapped. My wife's depression did not magically become cured, but I learned how to detach from it and be a good partner while protecting my own health.
In the years since, my improved wellbeing and happiness has slowly but surely helped turn the relationship around. Her depression is still not cured, but now I know how to be a good partner for her, which has in fact helped her to a large degree. She now trusts me as someone she can turn to for help, rather than viewing me as someone who was taking her mental health personally (which I was definitely doing). In the end, this is thing most spouses don't want to realize -- it's you that has to change, not your partner with depression, whether that means leaving the relationship because it can't and won't work, or learning to love them as they are.
(*) It can be really easy for spouses to take suggestions like this personally. I know I did. Being called co-dependent by the couples therapist felt like a full scale assault. How dare he say that I'M the one with a problem!! Doesn't he know what I've BEEN through?? What I was missing is that he was telling me that to help me. Learning about co-dependency -- and how to overcome it -- was the most liberating thing I've ever felt.
> The best tool for this is something called "loving detachment." I'd recommend you read about it, and about the concept of co-dependency in general
Do you have any resources that you'd care to recommend? I've found it challenging to find good resources. I find recommendations like the one in this article, "just listen", to be profoundly unhelpful.
This is the best comment in the thread. So many people are in love with "the person when they aren't depressed." But that isn't the whole person. Depression is not something "happening" to a person, it is part of them (I say this as someone with depression and general anxiety disorder). That's not to say I don't work to improve my lot. I take medication, meditate, etc. But it is always there. It always will be. Thankfully, I have a loving partner who understands that. It's not always easy on her, of course, but she knows that it is part of who I am.
Similar experience here. Though my ex was diagnosed with bipolar and borderline personality disorder on top of the clinical depression. Regular psychologist and psychiatrist visits and a scary amount of meds to take each day.
I've got a lot of empathy for people in relationships like this. It's not easy and even though there's help and medication, it still ends up being an up hill battle.
I myself have been struggling with Dysthymia since my teenage years so you can imagine how fun that experience was with her.
I tried everything with her to change her outlook on certain things, find ways to distract her mind, finding coping mechanism etc. Nothing worked, though I think she might not have wanted to get better in a sense. Having 5+ hour long arguments every day about things that weren't logical finally broke me. My Dysthymia turned into full on depression. For months I'd tell her that I'm going to bed praying I wouldn't wake up - hoping that she'd find better ways for managing things... I just eventually tapped out and had to leave.
So yeah, I have loads of empathy for people in similar situations. Just remember that you can leave. If you've done all you've could, no one will blame you. Some people just aren't meant to be in relationships or need a lot of help before getting into one.
Marriage is spending your life with someone else. Life has it's good and bad, just like marriage. You can decide for yourself what you are willing to do deal with and what you aren't, but "marriage" isn't the issue.
(Before anything: sorry if that nessage comes accross as insensitive, this is not the purpose. More on this at the end)
Your situation sounds like the textbook description of depression as caused by "mental distortions" from proponents of CBT. Did your wife consult a CBT practitioner, and did this help?
I am in no way trying to say I know the solution to your (past) problems, but CBT is sometimes described in a bit too enthusiastic terms by its proponents, and your story sounds like an opportunity to get anecdotal evidence on how much it might actually work in practice. In particular TEAM-CBT proponents claim to be able to cure depression in a session (and then continue to accompany the person through the innevitable relapses). I love their very data-oriented approach, but find it too good to be 100% true.
I have recently read through the book, "Feeling Good" by David Burns, which is regarded as one of the better books on CBT.
It helped me a lot, in particular in dealing with thoughts something like what the OP's partner apparently had. It has great strategies for first recognizing, and then dealing with such thoughts. They're not "just feel better" ideas, they're specific things to do which help.
I read it as well, and also listened to his podcast (which is where I learned about "TEAM-CBT", his supposedly highly effective new approach). The concepts and arguments in the book (and podcast) make total sense to me, but the _way_ it is presented is sounds more like snake-oil marketing than science, which is why I am interested in learning about its effectiveness on severe forms of depression from independent sources.
I think the overarching message with this post is right on whenever you are talking to someone who is struggling: listen, love, and don't judge. A hug is much better than a suggestion on how the family member can "fix" themselves.
I also want to put a plug in for dogs. I have struggled with depression on and off in my life, and two years ago I adopted a dog I saw being abused in the street. She was just a little puppy, and I absolutely did not want anything to do with raising a dog at the time, but I felt I had no choice. I picked her up and took her home.
Since then I have not been able to sleep past 7am in the morning without these two little eyes staring me down. But it is wonderful. She gives me relentless love every day, and she gave my life a really healthy structure it desperately needed. We go on walks three times a day looking for her doggy friends. I spent a lot more time in nature, because she doesn't give a damn for computers or video games. I know even some people look down on me for how much I love my dog, but they have no idea what I was like before. This dog saved my ass.
Now it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to just lie in bed, and that is a great thing, not a bad thing.
Just want to say that dogs are not a magical panacea. I've seen them make life worse for depressed people (many dogs have behavioral problems that a depressed person is not equipped to deal with). If you're on the fence about taking on the responsibility of pet ownership, I'd lean towards the side of not getting one.
Some of the problems I've seen with people who've adopted dogs:
1) One dog got scared by a loud firework and now runs home from walks at any sudden sound, and won't even go out at all in many conditions, leading to great stress.
2) One dog has separation anxiety and shits everywhere if left alone too long.
3) One dog owner is depressed and doesn't walk her little dog, instead relying on wee wee pads, but the dog ignores them so the apartment is disgusting.
4) One has to wear a muzzle and chain harness on every walk and only the husband can walk him, since he goes berserk if he sees other dogs.
Etc. And all except number 3 above are people who are good with dogs, did everything you're supposed to do, consulted with trainers, etc. Look at the Biden's dog, Hunter - all the money in the world for training, a patient family and they couldn't fix his issues.
And then there's people out there who blame the owner/blame the victim when a dog makes the owner's life worse. "You must be just doing something wrong."
So again, if you're depressed, you might get lucky with a dog, but don't blame yourself if you have to rehome it.
Unfortunately going through a situation with a dog now which has led me deep into depression again. My dog which I adopted 4 months ago has resource guarding issues which has caused him to bite me and my roommates multiple times, and has unfortunately led to an ultimatum from my roommates which I got yesterday that its either me or the dog.
I have tried for months working with the dog and spent thousands on training and tools to try and train him out of his resource guarding issues with no success. It looks like I have very little choice except to have him go back to the rescue I got him from, as moving is out of the question with how much housing costs in my area (I live in a house a good friend owns and I'm paying under market rates right now), let alone even if I moved out I would have difficulty finding any roommates who would tolerate a dog which bites.
The dog has been a great companion and I love him, but having to let him go has made me feel absolutely horrible, and I feel the worst I have in years now.
Thank you. I'm happy to say though that the rescue I got him from was understanding, and he is now at the same foster home he was at before I adopted him. They assured me they will find him a good home. It still really stings, but I can at least rest assured he is in good hands
For these reasons, I recommend cats for those who can't deal with a dog's needs. Cats give no less love than a dog, and much easier to maintain and keep happy.
Cats aren't perfect for someone who's not home for a long portion of the day, or who likes going out too much, though I Assume someone with depression doesn't go out much to begin with.
Hilarious. I was so confused at why anyone would name a dog after someone in the family.
I was already running through my head a scenario like on King of the Hill where Hank Hill's father, Cotton, decides to name his newborn son Hank and refers to him as "Good Hank".
Dogs are amazing. I found mine on the street too, though she would wait for me to get up before she came over to play, she never woke me up. Now she's an old lady with hearing problems, but she's still amazing and super smart.
I ‘borrowed’ my friends dog when I was going through some darker times in my life during a burnout. We went for long walks every day for a few weeks and feel that it helped out tremendously. Without that forced structure I would have prolonged my suffering, probably starring at the ceiling ruminating on the same thoughts all day long. It worked for me, it worked out for the dog and it worked out for my friends whose time and attention was largely taken by their child. Likewise, my mother was forced to adopt a dog in a similar fashion as you, she wasn’t eager to get a dog but in hindsight she’s benefitted greatly from it, phisically and emotionally.
Having helped a person through a severe depressive episode that lasted many months, I have to say there is a lot more to it than this article suggests. Sometimes I had to talk and not listen, because I needed my partner to eat for the first time that day, or needed to coerce them to keep their doctor or therapy appointments because if they didn't, they would rapidly end up disconnected from any professional care.
I found that their disposition came in waves and would be worse for a few days and better for a few days, and during those better days we could work together on damage control from all the bedridden days, and discuss different treatment options to pursue. But even during the worst days, I still needed to get them to eat, or stop them from wandering off in the middle of the night, or get them to call back their panicked family member. It was hard work.
Thank you for pointing this out! I really appreciate people talking and being open about this topic and discussions/threads like these. But with this topic, generalization in general is pretty hard. With mental illnesses there are so much individual conditions, personal history/socialization, charachter etc. playing into it, that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to this.
Coping with depression and similar with others is a very individual task and just like you said, different situations and characters call for dealing with it very specifically.
The biggest respect for your hard work (as well for the person that you helped, of course). This article kind of suggested that it contains advice for the people that provide care, but it still misses their personal perspective and what they can do to care for themselves. It is often also especially hard to find advice for people who become caregivers in a relationship that is not inherited / biological but rather voluntary.
I hope you had a good network of people to support you during that time, as well.
Glad to see this, as someone who has almost only been with people with depression, this article was a very aggressive "You're not doing enough, you're doing it wrong, you're not trying hard enough, you should be doing better" which is hypocritical. The post did not come from a place of compassion or support, but entitlement. This article doesn't understand how hard it is to listen to hours, days, months, years of a person you care about constantly speaking of ending their life. "Just Listen" may be good advice for the first 50 hours or so, but after that is absolutely not a productive suggestion.
All of those with depression who I have been with do a combination of:
- Sleep small amounts of absurd hours
- Eat junk foods
- Spend all their time on video games, YouTube, TV shows, social media
- No exercise
- Take substances such as caffeine or other recreational drugs
And it is indeed coddling that has gotten them to this point. The general response may be "It is so easy for you to say and do", but it really isn't easy for anyone.
With an increase in people who either identify as or are diagnosed with depression, they have continued to claw at other aspects to blame, and it's now shifting to blaming "loved ones" for "failing" them.
This honestly just sounds like you dislike modern society and have serious misgivings about what mental illness does to people. Your list of behaviors illustrates this:
- Sleep small amounts of absurd hours
A small amount of research will let you know this isn't necessarily a sign of depression, even if you witness it in others. Many folks sleep entirely too much instead. Not only that, but this is easily something other life things do: Having an infant, for example, or working long hours at a stressful job or having a health issue. Heck, if you only see them once a month, a woman's hormone cycle could do this.
- Eat junk foods
Sometimes, but that's because depression robs folks of energy and motivation. Junk food is better than nothing at all. But more to the point, it is really common for normal folks to eat junk food. Just have a busy schedule or live in the Midwest.
- Spend all their time on video games, YouTube, TV shows, social media
This isn't a sign of depression because it is normal in society. Signs point to such folks spending the time differently.
- No exercise
So, basically normal. Exercise isn't a cure-all, and not everyone can afford things like safe areas outdoors nor proper shoes.
- Take substances such as caffeine or other recreational drugs
Coffee sells really well, as does tea. I'm awfully sure that this isn't a sign of depression. I'll add that loads of folks take recreational drugs - most popularly, pot/hash and alcohol - that aren't mentally ill.
It doesn't matter if it isn't easy for you: Depression makes those things more difficult. No one said it was easy.
What you've highlighted isn't incorrect, but we'd be missing the forest for the trees if we were just to only focus on each individual aspect of depression.
Exercise is required to be a human. Walking 10,000 steps each day is a good rule of thumb, it doesn't require proper shoes, or any equipment. Many people will get there just through their day-to-day activities. If that's unachievable, there are games like Ring Fit which are very accommodating.
Sleep is required to be a human. 7-8 hours a day. It doesn't need to be all at once, but it is so important not to devalue those restorative hours.
Food is required to be a human. Our gut biome is instrumental to cognitive well-being; our brain requires Omega-3 fatty acids which can not be produced within our body, and important vitamins such as D, B-12, iron, etc. are often not available in many processed foods (which is why many are becoming fortified!)
Lacking in all the above is co-emergent depression, as well as a recipe for systemic health issues.
I can't believe you're trying to justify and normalize that entire list. It literally means you ignore every basic function of your body, and consequently your mind.
It's a zombie lifestyle. Exercise isn't a cure-all because reasons and people have no shoes. What!?
They are normal, though. It doesn't mean folks are ignoring everything, it means they are normal. And honestly, I could argue about the abnormality of exercise since our ancestors weren't spending daily time running for the sake of running. The comment about shoes was displaying that folks have different sorts of battles to get these things done - more offering an alternative to the status you gave folks that do these things.
If you don't like it, don't do it. It doesn't make other's lifestyle less normal.
I'm assuming we're referring to the parent comment which lists a combination of these behaviors, as well as doing each into the extremes.
Barely sleeping and only eating junkfood. Spending time only on games.
Surely you understand that exercise is an invention to compensate for our passive lifestyles that require far less physical activity? Does this really have to be explained?
> Glad to see this, as someone who has almost only been with people with depression
I would gently suggest you spend some time thinking about this. What makes you seek out relationships with depressed people?
I say this because I was in a similar life situation. Examining the question I just asked you very deeply helped me to a place of significant improvement for my own wellbeing.
> it's now shifting to blaming "loved ones" for "failing" them.
I didn't get this from the article at all. I think you are feeling some defensiveness, which is normal, but still.
> This article doesn't understand how hard it is to listen to hours, days, months, years of a person you care about constantly speaking of ending their life.
That's because -- as difficult as this is to accept -- in these situations the right thing to do is to leave the relationship.
I would (again, gently) suggest you research codependency. Doing so would be for your own health and happiness. I know when a therapist first called me codependent it felt like an aggressive attack; I took it extremely personally. I hope you don't feel the same. Just trying to help a fellow HNer.
> - Spend all their time on video games, YouTube, TV shows, social media
And loneliness?
> - Take substances such as caffeine or other recreational drugs
Doesn’t everyone drink caffeine? Asking seriously. I am depressed but I believe computer addiction sucks my liveliness, fortunately with programming instead of gaming, so I was able to make a career out of it, but it’s been the bane of my life. I prefer caffeine because it bumps my mood and I can still do sports, as opposed to meds which cut my libido and break my will to do sports and make me want to eat fat (so basically cuts my manliness), but could caffeine be the cause of anything and do most people do without?
After 39 years old, I just conclude people hate people who work and invent values to break our life (preferring some people to others, celebrating other people’s deeds (meanwhile I’ve donated thousands to charities, in hours and money, who cares?), now locking us down with covid psychosis, it sounds very fun to them), I’m done trying to better myself, ideology of favouring the weakest turns into hating the “rich” and plain bullying. If the world didn’t revolve around making our life difficult, people like me wouldn’t spend our life at work and they wouldn’t be able to fund their awful “social” (social but not me) projects. The economy of the nation revolves on stable bullying.
I enjoy the coffee experience. Fitness people seem to enjoy the euphoria of Gyms and exercise. So that whole thing seems out of left field for me.
BUT, we generally need to eat a lot better, exercise more, spend less time on TV for the sake of wasting time..
But i can't generalize it all. There are lots of computer games that exercise the mind, relieve stress, offer creativity like nothing before. Minecraft is that for me - from the music to the expressiveness and the simple joy of playing.
I watch a lot of youtube videos on making music, improving my coding/development skills and history... so its not like i'm just wasting my time there.. but i have to do it in the right doses and not ignore my family/day to day life
so it's all about balance
and its so hard to balance when you work 40 hours a week, have a family, have kids and have dependencies that playing a game for 3 hours on friday is nothing compared to the rest of it.
And that's what causes the depression/burnout i see...
Going through a pretty rough time mentally and I just came here to say that I concur. My sleep's out of whack, have been eating too much junk since mid-December, too much consumption and no creation, avoidance of work, the stress of piled up work and still not doing anything about it, haven't regularly exercised since 2-3 months now, daily caffeine intake.
Everything feeds into everything. It has become a vicious cycle. I'm trying to break out of it but somehow I fail everyday. Commenting in hopes of moving the needle by re-iterating it to myself.
I know exactly how you feel and have been there. It's important to adjust your thinking from "I need to break out of it and I keep failing" to celebrating the individual moments you succeed. One day at a time, as it were. Don't think "I need to start exercising regularly" just do something, go for a walk, lift weights, etc. Don't worry if you are going to do it tomorrow or the next day. You did it today. Good habits aren't things that "start" they occur because you just did something today, and you happened to do it the next, etc. until you just do it because it's a habit now.
I know it's hard, and I have to remind myself of the same things all the time. But I'm successful when I get out of my head and start acting.
It is a fine balance. Sometimes you'll need to push someone, but sometimes that push will make them feel worse while not actually changing anything.
What I've learned is that there are no general easy solutions on how to deal with someone that is depressed. Even when someone says "X worked for me", you might find that it only worked because other things they did brought them to a stage where they were ready to accept X and it could work for them.
The only real advice I can give is that sometimes you'll need to listen, other you'll need to push, sometimes you'll need to listen and wait before you can push, or viceversa. But you'll never really know when to do each or how to do them. Try to get them to a therapist (this can be hard already) that knows what to do and if they need medication, but other than that just be attentive and compassionate. There's no magic solution.
Multiple friends and family members are currently successfully managing their depression. Prior to that multiple weren't able to manage their depression and killed themselves. I had a close friend thank me on her birthday for suggesting ketamine - she said she probably wouldn't be alive without me making her aware of it.
A bit surprised no one's broached this question: At what point is it OK to leave your depressed partner?
I know someone who left his depressed spouse of over 25 years. He loved her and tried to make it work, but eventually chose happiness for himself, for the second half of his life. He left her alone and essentially friendless.
I did this. It was, by far, the hardest decision of my life.
Years later I still silently feel guilty beyond anything and wonder deeply if it was the right choice. The reaction of my friends, parents and colleagues was something along the lines of "at last!" as they only saw me as a martyr who always "compromised" and put up with large costs, financially, emotionally, and with no reward other than being yelled at a lot; sleeping on the sofa every night. I felt very, very bad about leaving, but I just could not cope and wondered what would happen for the rest of my life either.
As far as I can tell, my departure promoted her to re evaluate her life, and explore other hobbies and activities. I chose to believe that this has been a net force for good for both parties. I just wish someone would tell me that I did the right thing, and am not a monstrous human, failing a partner in their hour (well, decade) of need.
A relationship is a two party deal. If one party isn't holding up his/her half, for whatever reason, including mental illness, and isn't taking steps to improve, there isn't much to be done. One person alone can't make a relationship work.
> failing a partner in their hour (well, decade) of need
Genuine question here. What do you mean when you talk about "failing a partner"? It seems like everyone in this type of relationship hesitates to leave because they think they'll damage the other person.
It doesn't sound from what you've written that your partner was doing so well when you were with them. Have you considered that maybe part of the depression was caused by their relationship with you? (Obviously I'm not saying that is the case, but reading your post, you seem to be of the opinion that your relationship was a good thing for your ex-partner.)
"As far as I can tell, my departure promoted her to re evaluate her life, and explore other hobbies and activities. I chose to believe that this has been a net force for good for both parties. "
That has been my experience too when I left my partner.
FWIW: I'm genuinely confused that you believe she was better off because you left, yet you feel like a monster and crave some kind of outside validation.
I thought having multiple conflicting emotions/beliefs/desires was like 99% of the human experience and the source of almost all art, philosophy, etc. (I'm being somewhat hyperbolic)
I'm not confused at someone being conflicted about a past action, especially a very hard decision. It also seems rational to hope that any negative consequences were minimal.
Easy to come across the wrong way online where if you said the same thing in person with tone and emphasis it may be ok.
I’ve fallen for that trap a few times and so now I even delete comments before posting as if I think “maybe my intent wont come across correctly here”.
I think the problem with the comment (the one starting FWIW) is it comes off a bit sarcastic even if you didn’t mean that.
Reflecting back might sometimes be useful, but your particular phrasing came across as condemnation. The implication, to my reading, was judgemental: you thought they were appropriately feeling guilty but seeking outside encouragement to reject that feeling. If you're going to try your hand at prodding someone to self reflection, a more encouraging tone may be more useful. Otherwise you risk wounding someone who, in this case, is already struggling with something.
you thought they were appropriately feeling guilty but seeking outside encouragement to reject that feeling.
No, that's not remotely my intent at all.
Most people raise children on either a guilt model or shame model. I raised mine on the basis of enlightened self interest.
Understandably, many people read in accusations of guilt where none exist. They've been trained that way.
I'm only replying in hopes it provides some clarification for the person I originally replied to. I care not at all what others think of me or my motives etc. But I sincerely wish that their takeaway is "You don't need outside validation if you can see with your own eyes that it was for the best." and not "Here is some random internet stranger just adding to your pain because the world is an awful place full of awful people."
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to try to clarify that detail.
It's a set of default mental models that a person gets inculcated with early in life and repeatedly reinforced over many years. There's no quick and dirty cure.
If you want to sort out how you may be projecting guilt (or projecting guilting behavior) onto other people and how that came to be, you might start a journal.
On HN, the guidelines ask that we assume good faith and take a charitable reading. If you work at that, it's a good exercise in how to sort out who is actually bringing their baggage to the conversation and when it is you, yourself, bringing the baggage.
A good rule of thumb is to observe patterns of behavior. Consider the history of the person speaking whom you seek to judge and consider your own patterns.
I sometimes downvote something on HN and then wonder if it's me, if I really have enough info to judge the comment or if I'm being lazy and reactive without adequate info to properly judge it. If I think "I don't really know that they are behaving badly like I think they are. I'm kind of leaping to conclusions here." I will reverse the downvote.
I usually am trying to understand a comment as best I can from their point of view while respecting myself and why I see it that way. Sometimes it's just not worth hashing out.
There isn't enough time in the day to really understand every random internet stranger, their life story, their personal history, their culture. Sometimes it's better to just drop it as the least worst answer I have in an imperfect world and an imperfect life with a limited amount of time on this earth.
There are people who spend years in therapy tracking down the defects in their own patterns of thought. It's not something that typically gets fixed in a "once and done" fashion.
Though sometimes it does get fixed that way. Sometimes just having the right thing said does make a person go "I did not know that about myself (or about how life works)." And they are permanently changed for the better without a lot of drama.
I feel like this is probably what people mean when they speak of seeking enlightenment -- that magical aha! moment that doesn't hurt and makes everything better forever.
Not GP, but when you really WANT to believe something and are aware of that fact, it can be hard to separate out whether that thing is actually true or if you've just subconsciously convinced yourself it is.
Most of your posts on HN amount to guilting people and accusing them of things, mixed with heavy doses of self-validation. (Earlier today you were starving in a street because of capitalism, no?) So the idea that someone could feel both guilt and relief at the same time shouldn't be foreign territory.
I left a partner who has OCD and probably some other issues that cause massive mood swings and make her do a lot of irrational things. I tried for years to help and be understanding. It never really got better, never ending ending, often self-made problems kept coming and it reached a point where I felt either we go both down or I have to leave. So I left. I feel guilty to some degree but it was also clear that I couldn't help. The interesting part is that me leaving her seems to have woken her up and she has a much better attitude now.
This makes me wonder if putting people with mental problems into a new situation away from family can break some of the negative patterns. My sister used to live with my parents for many years, barely left the home besides for work and in general just hated life. Then she went to a six month stationery treatment and you could see with very visit how she did better. Now she has her own place and an OK life . Maybe family or partners can prolong mental problems? Even if they want to help it's possible they are also contributing to the problem.
As someone who has struggled with depression and anxiety for decades, huge crises like a partner leaving or getting fired (both due to depression and anxiety) have always forced me to get better at handling my issues. I totally am of the opinion that family, friends, and partners can all be huge enablers of really awful behaviors that feed or even cause mental illness. Not only that, it's not their job to make the sick person better. They can't. Only the person with the issues can learn to address them.
That said, I've also seriously contemplated suicide in all these times of crisis, and I'm guessing a certain percentage of people in this type of situation won't make it through. Whether it's ethical to force them to deal with an even more awful reality in hopes that they'll become stronger is questionable, but I believe it's sometimes necessary, because many people with depression/anxiety don't really live anyway.
I'm personally glad that not everyone tolerated my unhealthy lifestyle and outlook on life, otherwise I'd still be living with my parents without a job and without having seen anything other than the inside of my bedroom.
Kafka's The Metamorphosis explores this a bit. The protag, before the story starts, is relied upon by his mom, dad and sister for everything. Once he becomes a bug they become self sufficient again.
There isn’t a right answer here. At some point, you have to take care of yourself. My extended family spent far too many years helping my bipolar uncle.
I don’t think everyone sees marriage the same way.
Vows are not morally or legally binding. It’s good if people want to take them seriously but people leave each other for lesser things than decades long depression.
I left a link in my parent comment that should shed light on my thoughts on marriage and commitment.
But, to answer your question, I do think there are times when divorce is wise. I just think those cases are exponentially less common than the rate at which people get divorced today.
My wife was married before me, it was terrible, and eventually divorced him. She would still consider my comment very applicable to someone in this kind of situation.
The comment netted 60 upvotes...so I'm not the only one that thinks this way.
It's not tone deaf, it's not discounting the pain and frustration that marriage can bring. It is challenging the pervasive self focus of our culture, over emphasis on personal happiness, and the refining benefit that persevering through suffering can bring.
That hits the wrong chord for some people. So be it.
> My wife was married before me, it was terrible, and eventually divorced him.
And yet you dismissed my original comment with a cheap shot about my friend not honoring his wedding vow and just chasing a selfish happiness. You might consider that there are many other people who find themselves in terrible marriages, as your wife did.
Sorry you felt like I dismissed your original comment with a cheap shot. The brevity was intended to highlight the divergence between what is vowed and what really governs. Provocative, yes. But it wasn't intended to be cheap or dismissive.
I'm aware of the potential apparent dissonance with my comments and my wife's divorce. But, I mentioned it deliberately. I do think divorce may sometimes be a wise answer. But, IMO, a big component of that evaluation should be what vows were actually made.
You have more optimism about the general moral character of our culture. But that's likely a worldview difference and not worth delving into at this point.
I will say that my insistence on moral virtue and commitment in marriage (or commitment in general even) is intended to be diagnostic in nature, not destructive. After all, it wasn't that many years ago that most in Western culture would have shared my views on marriage and vows. I don't believe that shift in culture is healthy and I point it out in the hope that if we ask the right questions, maybe we'll start getting the right answers.
Pretty sure 'put up with spousal abuse and neglect' isn't in the vows but that sure doesn't seem to stop a number of people from inflicting it on their partners, ad infinitum.
This is such a block-headed view and I hope no one reading will actually take it to heart. Mens emotions and mental health are just as valid as a woman’s. Absolutely hypocritical and dangerous viewpoint to hold.
Nah, it's been the default view of all of humanity for the past few hundred thousand years. I opened and closed by saying it was stone-aged, but it isn't without merit just because it's suddenly out of fashion. And as far as being "dangerous", it's not physically dangerous. Or, no more so than a woman staying with a man who takes his depression out on her. Which is a very dangerous thing, indeed.
It's all good to say it's a block-headed view, but it ain't hypocritical (it would need to be self-contradictory for that), and there are lots of other views besides the "right one" - yours? What's that? - that people reading should take to heart. One of which is that men who can't hold their shit together are by definition more dangerous and harmful than women who can't.
More like respectful. Men have more power whether we want to or not. Being a depressed bum is the same as replacing the abusive asshole father your girlfriend grew up with, so, try not to be that.
"Mens emotions and mental health are just as valid as a woman’s."
No, they're not. I mean I agree that they are just as valid, but society thinks otherwise, so practically speaking, they're not.
Note that I'm willingly going to generalize and exaggerate as there's no other way to get to a point.
Many men grow up in an emotional desert and are soon taught that expressing emotion is a sign of weakness. The boys don't cry narrative is very much alive. Parents may instill this toughness in you out of love, as they know what lies ahead. Emotional men don't stand a chance.
In work, men are judged by performance, with no tolerance for failure. A man that can't make it on their own is a failure. Women can fail and have a support network, men do not. That's why the bottom consists of almost only men.
And here we haven't even considered the reality in the developing world, where men can't afford to call in sick for mental illness.
In relationships, men are selected for utility. Nobody wants to hear that, but you can't deny the biology. You need to be healthy/strong, economically sound and reliable, and of course easy on the eyes. Women wanting emotional men only want them when all other conditions are met. Nobody wants an emotional man that is "in between jobs". Further, relationships are emotionally dominated by women. Which is not a complaint, rather an observation.
The reason why for even the toughest of men their mother is holy, is because it's their only source of genuine love. The only place where they are not judged by utility. Love for love's sake.
In media, say sitcoms, men are always portrayed as the neglectful primitive idiot, emotionless. Alternatively as aggressor. On social media, men are made responsible for any and all horror in the world.
Men are criminally under-complimented. They are absolutely shocked when somebody says something nice about them, as nobody ever does, no matter their efforts. There's even Youtube series featuring random acts of kindness towards men, bringing the men to tears. You can tell it's been decades since somebody did anything nice to them. And they are common men.
So, I conclude that men's emotions are worthless. Men know this, they have lived it. To add insult to injury, once should of course curse men for being so poor in expressing emotions, not taking any of the above into account.
The best response to my rant would be to say "oh gee....poor men. boohoohoo". That would only double down on the issue though, which is to completely disregard male mental well-being, to make fun of it.
Note that I'm not attacking your point of view, I agree that the above is dangerous. But it's also the reality of things on the ground, and not changing.
I'm also a 41 yr old man and I think you sending a mixed message here.
Background: I spent 20 years "being a man" in a relationship with a depressed wife. You know what I didn't do during those years, took care of my own mental health. Do you know what happened when I approached 40, boom mid life crisis with an avalanche of shit pouring over me that I hadn't dealt with due to "I'm man, I'm strong" mindset. I haven't left my spouse though because she is actively/honestly working on her shit and it's hard letting my mental health take up space in our relationship but she's backing that effort.
So back to your mixed message. If you are a man, you have exactly the same hard choice as a woman would have to leave/stay a spouse that is depressed. You don't have to stay because you need to "be the man", you stay because your love is strong enough to care for her.
But you are nibbling at what I think is a real issue. I think that there are a lot of women living with a depressed man that is _only_ relying on them for emotional support. Because of stupid ideas that it's "unmanly" to "be weak" and need help for their mental health. So as a woman in this situation, you are (per above) free to leave them. But also you could just call them out of their old-fashion views and make them seek professional help. You are are not supposed to be their free therapist/outlet and lover! But if they resort to the most stupid-manliest way of dealing with their mental health issues, violence, leave now, leave yesterday, leave without one ounce of remorse!
Well - I was gonna say, we should get a drink - but here is where I think those old worn-out social roles and gender roles actually serve a purpose. What I'm trying to get at is that we had role models in our lives - I think about my dad or my uncles, who were tough men - who had no fucking clue what they were doing but they just did it. They were rocks for the people in their lives. And I look at these sort of excuses for boys now, i.e. men in their 20s who want to claim female sensitivity and let it override their relationships with women (who they treat as mothers, to wash and cook, like boys in Italy treat their girlfriends) and at the same time make a claim to woke/expanded mindfulness. Jesus fucking Christ. It's a joke because it's total male insecurity masquerading as sensitivity protected by a claim to righteous identity.
Sorry. That wasn't to your point, that was just a rant about what I see so much of in relationships these days, since 2015 or so. Since you were allowed to redefine your identity as a victim even or especially if you were oppressive toward your partner.
To your point, I don't know how to say this except that you are a man. You don't have to tell yourself that or always be it, or be right (ever) or be strong (usually). You just are. And fuck yeah, in this particular situation, it's hard on your mental health. I stored it up for ten years and finally said, without thinking, "you never give anything back, you just take", to my girlfriend, when she was ... let me abbreviate. I always knew when she was about to go into a depressive state. I wouldn't usually tell her, but I could set my watch to it. Sometimes I'd make the mistake of saying - while we were out having a good time at a party - "in an hour you're going to crash and attack me, and not get out of bed for days." And she never believed me. And it always happened like that.
Sorry man, I'm just not able to take all of this and put it into a logical inline post in response to something. This happened and continues to happen, and what you call it or what I call it is pretty stupid to argue about. To me it's being a man, but, not like I have to fake it, just, I have to suck it up. These gender roles serve well because, just imagine if you or I had a nervous breakdown. We're not allowed that.
I'm fully aware I'm projecting now! But I'm interpreting your mixed signals and incoherent rambling are some kind of ad hoc beacon signaling out-of-band "it's fucking hard and I don't know what to do, send help" but the framing you are in can't allow you to say that out loud because that is not "sucking it up". So you'll go on believing that the gender roles serve you well because "at least I'm not having a nervous breakdown". Until you do. And then I hope, you'll seek and accept help.
For me, seeking help came in the form of starting doing work in the context of a national movement affiliated with the global movement Men Engage. But that movement see the traditional gender roles more as harmful rather than serving a purpose like you believe so I'm guessing that's not it for you. http://menengage.org/about-us/what-we-believe/
Your view here is abusive of one of the genders, and a cause of untold misery.
At the end you have an apology - but again you are shitting on men as you should direct that apology to the male half of the human race whose mental health and wellbeing you're just shitting on.
If this is your experience then I think it's important to recognize that those are just anecdotes, and if you have a lot of those anecdotes it's only going to make it harder to base your view on facts. There's tons of evidence that the typical views on masculinity have a lot of negative mental health impacts.
https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2016/11/sexism-harmf...
> While overall, conforming to masculine norms was associated with negative mental health outcomes in subjects, the researchers found the association to be most consistent for these three norms — self-reliance, pursuit of playboy behavior and power over women
https://bmcpsychology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40...
> models predicting depression generally showed that higher conformity to masculine norms was associated with an increased risk of current depressive symptoms, especially in the oldest age group
I did a search for "studies on masculinity and depression", there's plenty more if you want to read up on it.
That view also makes no sense for gay couples - if there's two women and one is depressed then does the other stay because their partner is a woman, or leave because they're a woman? Same issue for two men - do they leave because the partner is a man or stay because they are?
If you have any studies showing that for some reason men should be handling mental health differently then women I'd be interested to read them, because as far as I can tell the view that there should be a difference is itself a big contributing factor to negative mental health.
I think it is also very difficult to decide when enough is enough for the partner. Someone close to me went through this, and there comes a point where you have to be honest and ask yourself: "Do I want to live like this for another 5-10 years?", "Do I want my children to learn that this is the normal?". Or, is it time to look ahead, find a partner that adds energy to your and your children's life. Love can be strong but is it worth everything? What are you teaching your children when you stay, what do you offer them when you leave? Is leaving too much selfishness or are you just suffering with 3 instead of 1?
I wonder how people with depression think about this? Do they themselves at some point think: "Please, go on without me?" Sure, they do when they want to commit suicide, that is their rationale, but can you also say: Go on, be happy while I work this out on my own? Or is the tunnel too dark? Are you really alone in there?
The people I know parted ways but I feel that the depressed partner never forgave the other party, and I do get that feeling (after all, they promised "for better or for worse" in front of their entire family). Meanwhile most people I know are seeing the healthy partner blossom, and their child now having a positive environment again. No more hiding of knives, no more strangers over the floor taking mommy away. No more going to grandma in the middle of the night.
Those are extremely difficult questions and they arouse a lot of guilt in partners and I feel that it is often overlooked. When is enough, enough?
These are indeed though questions. In one hand we care for and have a responsibility for our partner, we wish them well, we try hard to help lift them up, to get them the adequate care they need. On the other hand how could we have known beforehand that this was how the relationship was going to be? How much are we willing to sacrifice for trying to improve things? The more time the couple spends together, the harder it will be to part ways.
In the end I believe the answers to these questions will vary a lot depending on each specific situation, there's no "right" answer. Sometimes you will want to stick to it, and you'll be able to overcome these challenges together. Other times you might not be so luck. All in all if you decide to part ways do so peacefully and respectfully to your partner, and if possible check on him/her every once in a while if that's not too harsh for you.
As someone who is bipolar, this hits the nail firmly on the head. Having to deal with people is just exhausting on top of everything else.
All people need to do is listen and don’t try to fix things. But people want to fix things. If I don’t let them fix things, I’m the asshole. If they can’t fix things, it’s my job to absolve their guilt, or I’m the asshole.
If I’m having suicidal thoughts, I’ve learned just say I’m “good” or “a bit tired” and change the topic. I don’t need people getting freaked out over every day problems I deal with.
No one can do anything to help that isn’t already being done. I have a psychiatrist, medication, and multiple safety plans. I don’t need more help. What I need is understanding and no expectations.
I'm glad you've got everything taken care of, but I think part of the problem is that not everyone does. Some people don't need any more help, but some people do. Hard to tell from the outside.
Something that's helped me in this situation is to explicitly tell people "I'm only looking for someone to listen please don't suggest anything to help". Otherwise as you said people want to help, and generally if someone is telling you an issue they are looking for a solution.
It can feel weird sometimes, but I think you get way better outcomes when the person knows how you want them to respond. Then you don't have to worry about not letting them fix things or absolving guilt if they can't. If you don't expect them to know then that's a perfect reason to tell them, and you can be super nice about it and say something like "Hey I really appreciate you trying to help but the thing that will help me most right now is just listening and not suggesting anything".
Edit: sorry in advance for the suggestion if it isn't what you're looking for haha, just sharing what's worked well for me
This is basically what I do with friends in private. Works well. :)
The problem I run into outside of controlled situations is the same one I have with my dairy allergy. I can’t eat the food at most social events. This either makes people uncomfortable or they feel sorry for me. Then they expect me to make them feel better about my allergy.
Adjust for any number of things.
Anyone with ADHD ends up getting asked “have you tried writing a todo list” no matter how hard they try to avoid it.
It's a good article, but articles like these are usually at the level of "depression is a real thing." Which is obviously true, but here are some things that mental health experts probably won't (or can't) tell you. A depressed partner might not be able to give or receive love. The giving love part is understandable, but the not receiving love part is tricky. Your partner might feel that you don't love them, and might be angry or resentful that you aren't loving them, even though you are. They might think if you loved them their depression would end. Your partner might feel so bad about themselves that they don't feel they deserve love, and that by loving them you're just stressing them out the way it feels when people want you to eat when you're not hungry. Your partner might see a therapist, and because of the nature of therapy, might be nudged into blaming you for all their woes. Finally, there's the possibility that you're the reason your partner is depressed. You might be a huge disappointment, but they feel too guilty to leave you, and feel trapped and helpless by the situation. Your partner might have imagined their life would have been very different and is so frustrated that they just shut down. Your partner might feel that the love you give isn't worth anything because it's coming from a loser. Probably the best thing you can do is make a good life and hope your joy will spark something in them.
> Your partner might see a therapist, and because of the nature of therapy, might be nudged into blaming you for all their woes.
What about the possibility that the depressed person might have suddenly stopped seeking help from their therapist/ stopped taking their medication? That seems important to mention in your list-- IIRC at least the latter is actually a symptom of some types of depression.
This is so fucking desperate.
This whole thing is so fucking fucked up.
Somebody I love has been in depression for almost a year. I tried everything, including this suggested "stay with them in the dark until they are better, oh wait that time could never come, but you do stay there with them nevertheless". Thanks for the "advice". That's what I've been doing. It's draining and it's killing me. Burning out through such experience is a matter of months, unless you are fully well, physically and mentally happy and stable yourself w/ a lot of overage to give. Surprise - most people are not.
The article doesn't mention that at all.
Doesn't answer the question where the hell can we find the resource and support to sustain ourselves while also being in the somebody else's darkness.
Doesn't even mention that as a fundamental question.
And for many of us the situation of "can't leave my beloved one, can't live with them in the darkness" will result in a endless cycle of two depressed people locked up in the cave of mutual drowning.
I'm still here and I'm not gonna go.
What you're going through sounds painful. Depression is perhaps contagious. I hope you are doing the best you can to take care of your own mental health. It could otherwise result in a negative feedback loop.
Also, please think about seeing a therapist. It might help to talk to someone who can understand what you are dealing with.
I couldn't agree more, the article is hopelessly naive and assumes that the partner simply has an unlimited amount of (mental) energy and patience to try and handle somebody with a mental illness. And worse, you're not "allowed" to actually help, you should leave them in the dark and absorb their negativity.
The fact that this negativity reflects on yourself seems to be of no interest to the author.
I suffer from depression and oscillate between days of high productivity and days of listlessness. I am a fairly decent programmer who has cracked FAANG interviews and got PIPed out of one in the past mostly due to my depression . I now work at a job which pays me well but is nowhere close to FAANG levels and I am fine with that because I need a job that allows me the 1-2 days in two weeks where I can barely do anything .
My spouse has had to deal with all this and also my outbursts and lying on the couch doing nothing . I recognize how patient she has been and tried to help me. I tend to get critical of her and blame her. I have finally started seeing a therapist and know I am in the wrong . But it feels very hard to fight the bad feelings which has been worse since the death of a parent during Covid and another aging parent while I am stuck in another country unable to travel.
I’ve know people to read or listen to Feeling Good in similar circumstances and find relief. Given that you are already seeing a therapist, this may help accelerate that transition from surviving to thriving. It’s a journey taken one step at a time, sometimes forward and sometimes backward. Being kind to yourself and giving yourself lots of time to go beyond the surviving state gives one the best chance. I wish you all the best in the journey.
Hi, I'm pretty much in the same situation. I have bursts of high productivity and then periods where I cant get out of bed.
It's not bipolar because it's not random, there are things that trigger the change.
I also had offers from FAANG but I purposely did not take it because I know myself and I know that these companies are not forgiving.
I did something much more risky and moved to an ecommerce firm in Europe. I thought this company would be forgiving and the competition would be less. Boy was I wrong, people are competent here and I was already given a warning.
I had one of my triggers and now I'm extremely tired all the time and cannot get out of bed. My mind is working at 30 percent and all the work I have done in last 4 months have been because of short 1-2 hours of productivity bursts.
It gets sooo stressful to work, but I try really hard just to avoid an embarassing pip and avoid losing my visa. My family back at home depends on my money.
I keep contemplating going back home but I cannot make up my mind.
> It's not bipolar because it's not random, there are things that trigger the change.
I am not a mental health professional, and neither are you. Perhaps you can use the opportunity that you have right now, living in Europe, to access free public health services, and seek professional advice.
Immigrating alone to a previously unknown country is very hard. I did it with my spouse and we struggled a lot.
I also had to stay in my job for 5+ years to keep my visa, I am just out of it now. I also struggle with on-off work ethic. Mostly depends on how interesting the work is (after 6 years it often is not.)
The best advice I have is to find ways to entertain yourself (in ways that make you grow, OR NOT) aside from the job. Looks like you’re thinking about it A LOT, for understandable reasons.
Seek out a therapist. Do a once-a-week session. It will help you a lot. There are also online systems that are more group based, where you run through sessions but have guides online that can help - i found those great for me to help find ways to cope with things - not as being depressed but avoiding depression in everything else that is going on. (I have a bi polar kid who attempted suicide)
I'm in tech, been in similar shoes. Besides therapy, I found going for walks to be exactly what I needed. Don't do ANYTHING but walk.
After you get a few walks, don't bring music but instead listen to an audio book of a book that you have been itching to read/finish. Take as LONG as you need to finish it - it's not a race. But sooner or later, you may find yourself walking more to listen to that audio book and you may find your spirits lifted when you stop to pause and live in the moment on the walk.
Walking can also change you from those doldrum times of floating in and out of work to busting out productivity a lot more - because it gives you the freedom and headspace to have clarity.
Whatever you do, don't fall into the "manage it all" trap. Humans and our brains are complex systems, we have to give them space to work. Buying shit to track your day, track everything, graph everything, be extremely detail oriented just adds anxiety into the mix. Give yourself room and space.
Listen to music that feeds that room and space. I've grown to love to mess with synthesizers because the sound is full of space and dimensions and movement even if it's stupid simple and you can get it all growly and fun - but warm
being a tech guy i see so many people burn out more because they buy a smart watch to track stuff and smart phone to track stuff and they try and journal everything and review everything - but that becomes more work and distracts you from the headspace we all desperately need.
as for going home, I'd start with a visit (when safe to do so). If found out that home is what i make of it and living where my family lived wasnt home anymore and there was nothing wrong with that - but i absolutely love visiting my family whenever I can and that was the hard thing with holidays this year - not doing that again. I had a potential covid exposure and my dad is mid 70s so i didn't want to risk being the one to spread it.
I’ve been depressed for 6 or 7 years. I’m 23 now. It doesn’t seem like it’s going to end.
I’ve been in a challenging episode for the past few weeks. I have been fortunate to be able to take a week and a half off work. I thought it would be relaxing, but all I’ve done is lay in bed.
My girlfriend lives with me, and I feel so guilty and embarrassed. I wouldn’t want to be with me.
I don’t think my problems are ever going away. It’s been years, and every aspect of my life is way better than when this all started. Except my mental health. I still feel just as shitty as I did 6 years ago.
I’ve started to look at life like a party that I reluctantly agreed to attend. I’m at the party, and I’m having a bad time. I just want to go home.
My vacation is over and I’ll be signing on to work in about 14 hours. I don’t think I’ll get much done. I’ve been thinking about checking myself into a hospital, but I’ve been there and didn’t find it very effective.
Loving someone with depression is depressing. I’m sorry to all of you loving people like me.
(posted on a throwaway because it’s too embarrassing to associate with my main, and I’ve actually had online comments like this used against me in the past)
As someone who is now in their mid 30's, but whos depression started in their early 20s, let me beg you - do not wait to get treatment.
It won't go away, and it will take years from you. Don't let it take what should be some of the best years of your life. If you don't approach depression as a disease that needs treatment, then you will resist doing anything about it and it will silently suck the joy out of existing.
Whatever you can do to preserve a positive outlook and a happy disposition I believe you SHOULD do. If you aren't enjoying your life then you are effectively not living. You're young enough now that you have the ability to dramatically reduce the damage that depression can do to your life, and trust me it can do serious damage.
Hey, thanks for your response. It’s heartening to see someone who cares for the well-being of strangers.
Not to be even more of a downer, but… I feel like I’m running out of options. I’ve tried Zoloft, Celexa, Lexapro, Effexor, and Remeron, prescribed by 3 different doctors. I’ve seen 6 different therapists. I’m extremely
privileged to say that I’m currently seeing a Stanford PhD out-of-network weekly.
I’ve heavily experimented with psychedelics, and while they’ve given me a much greater appreciation for arts and humanities as well as a curiosity about this universe, they haven’t made me want to be alive. I’ve experimented with ketamine recreationally, too.
I don’t know what to do. Nothing helps. I’m thinking of trying TMS, but I’m really skeptical of that.
Part of me wonders if I have what your sibling commenter describes as “congruent depression” — depression which is expected given the circumstances of one’s life. There is one aspect of my life which is lacking: social connection. I feel lonely, but it’s hard to tell if this is the cause of my depression. Even if it is, I don’t know how to fix it. I don’t really like talking to people — I’m very introverted and also talking to people makes me very anxious. It’s even more difficult because of Covid.
Your comment really hits close to home. I’m not living. There is no joy. And I can see, very slowly, the damage which is being done.
Tune me out if this doesn't resonate with you, but what you're describing, does it feel like it could have a spiritual component? Is it a sense of total, overwhelming hopelessness, but a rational one, based on existence as you can understand it?
I spent a long time in a state like that, with suicidality and all. In retrospect it was a total "poverty of spirit", and I had to accept a drastically different understanding of myself and existence altogether to move past it. But it was necessary for me to experience it to do that, and I can truly say I am changed for the better. All this is a roundabout way to say, that accepting the idea of total depravity, and realizing that the all-encompassing hopelessness that springs from that state of being is completely valid, was surprisingly helpful to me, at least. I still had to find hope somewhere else (or in someone else to be specific), but doing so did help in a way medicine didn't (for me).
Actually, yes, it does feel like it could have a spiritual component. As a child I was a reluctant Christian. I’ve described myself as an atheist starting when I was 11 or so. Since experimenting with psychedelics, I now describe myself as an agnostic. I have a sense that there is some greater entity out there, but I have zero confidence that it resembles any human god.
I attended a Christian church service a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in over a decade. It was an odd feeling. On one hand, I felt a bit like I was in a cult meeting and I was totally disillusioned. On the other hand, after talking with people there, many of them seemed to describe a “void” in their life which was filled by religion. I can feel a void like that in myself. Maybe this is the “poverty of spirit” you describe? Still, while I agree with many Christian teachings, I don’t think anybody could convert me into a believer.
I feel the all-encompassing hopelessness; the nihilism. Nothing matters. There might be consequences of
my death, but ultimately those consequences don’t matter.
If I thought anything mattered, maybe I would think I matter.
I am very curious to hear more about your experience. I have to admit I’m having trouble understanding your solution.
Coming from a similar background as you (reluctant Catholic kid, now agnostic, seeking greater social connection), after attending a couple Quaker services over the years I've been strongly considering going regularly (alas, Covid).
The service is very unlike other Christian rites. There is no priest, and anyone can speak. I remember long stretches of silence in contemplation, punctuated with a thoughtful couple sentences here and there from someone more spiritual than me.
Importantly, it's also my understanding many Quaker meetings openly accept atheists and agnostics, among a diversity of beliefs. See https://nontheistfriends.org/
I was a very outspoken atheist myself for many years, an officer in my college's chapter of the secular student alliance back in the early 2010's. I was raised going to a mainline church sometimes, but it didn't do anything for me. I never had a grudge against Christianity or anything, but I grouped Jesus and God in with Santa at some point as a teenager and never really thought further about it.
So I didn't think I could be converted either. I thought "Good without God" was how I could live, and things would eventually work out if I could just tune my environment or my brain chemistry accordingly. But I eventually found myself backed into a corner when I realized I had no way to reconcile meaning, joy, or goodness with myself or life as I could understand it. I wasn't good at all, if I was honest with myself. I felt exactly as you described, without value in a world that had no value.
There's a lot to be said to tell the whole story, but to be anticlimactic, my solution was indeed Jesus. Considering his words, his claims, his promises, and daring to believe they applied to me, that's how I found hope, and a reason to live life as though I do have some value. How I got to that point from atheist, that required a long process of addressing a number of assumptions and biases before choosing to believe. The whole "church" part came after, and was more of the icing on the cake.
BTW, if you're curious at all, here's what I was reading tonight that actually got me thinking on the topic of "poverty of spirit" and what it means to Christianity in particular (starts at section I.1 - https://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/sermons.v.xxi.html )
I gotta go to bed, but if you wanna chat more or hear the whole story sometime let me know. I can email that address you posted in the other comment. Wishing you the best.
What helped me with regard to that was reading the first three pages of "The myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus. I never even read the book further than that.
Did you turn to organized religion? I find that I don't really believe in anything enough (not just religion) to be a spiritual person. How did you develop a spiritual component?
Yeah, I did put my hope in Jesus and turn to Christianity. I didn't consider myself spiritual either beforehand. I never did psychedelics or believed in anything supernatural, or believed in some higher power or meaning before I made the decision to believe in Jesus' claims. It was a decision based on evaluating the state of my own self, and evaluating Jesus and his words.
Though to give some background, even when I was an avowed atheist, moral relativism was something I could never abide. I always felt strongly that as intelligent beings, there was truth and objectively better ways of existing to be found. The book "The beginning of infinty" helped me justify that rationally, and also made me realize how incredibly powerful, rare, and valuable intelligence is as a force in the universe. From there, CS Lewis' "Abolition of Man" got me onto the idea of natural Law, and the "Gospel of Thomas" got me thinking on the timeless, and somewhat subversive nature of the truths that Jesus taught. I looked many places, but found Jesus' teachings to be uniquely valuable to understanding the state of myself own soul. From there, it was a matter of choosing to believe him on the harder stuff (CS Lewis' Trilemma came into play there). The feeling of belief did not precede the decision to believe, which surprised me, but is apparently not uncommon.
I'm glad I did though, and my spirituality (which I only developed afterward) has become really essential to my life and hugely positive for my wellbeing. The organized religion aspect is more of a support system and framework to practice it in, but quite helpful nonetheless.
For sure! I know I dropped a couple of book recs in the comment above, but if you ever want more, or just to talk/ask questions feel free to reach out. My email is my HN username at gmail.
> Part of me wonders if I have what your sibling commenter describes as “congruent depression” — depression which is expected given the circumstances of one’s life.
I have a similar issue. It's a chicken/egg question. Is depression causing the struggles I'm going through, or are the struggles causing depression?
I've done a lot of self exploration recently through a bunch of different therapists and have been diagnosed with ADHD. My original theory after learning this was that the ADHD caused my depression, especially because I noticed that during periods when I wasn't depressed, I still had issues with executive function.
However really inconsistent results from ADHD medication make me question my theory. Maybe the depression is so pervasive that even when I'm not feeling depressed, the habits and thought patterns that I'm so accustomed to stifle me even though I'm no longer in the depression cloud. Maybe heavy internet/gaming/porn use for 20 years combined with a lack of good habits has just created an addiction to stimulation and set me up for failure in general. Maybe the asocial digital lifestyle I lead is just completely against my nature and I need to go be a high school teacher instead of a software engineer (but I think a high income is too important in the US for a comfortable life). Maybe I just need to start believing in God and let Jesus take the wheel.
> I’m not living. There is no joy. And I can see, very slowly, the damage which is being done.
I've heard multiple times that people with untreated ADHD have shorter life spans due to increased risk of suicide and stress-related health problems (I assume this applies to all mental disorders). The problem is that all mental health disorders are on a spectrum and that no one solution can fit everyone. I don't really have a solution for myself, and I wouldn't be surprised if I die "early".
>Maybe heavy internet/gaming/porn use for 20 years combined with a lack of good habits has just created an addiction to stimulation and set me up for failure in general.
This is something I wonder too. Could I have trained myself into this state? Is this a learned behavior? Has years of laziness and gratification seeking created a state where effort is no longer an option?
> Maybe I just need to start believing in God and let Jesus take the wheel.
I've been told this works really well. I have a weird feeling it might even work for me, if I could somehow get myself to buy into the whole organized religion thing. Maybe if Elon started a Church of the Simulation I could get on board, haha.
The potential link to ADHD is interesting. At times I've wondered if I have ADHD. I certainly relate to many of the symptoms. I actually was diagnosed and prescribed Ritalin, but I have to admit that I was drug seeking at that time so not really sure the diagnosis holds water.
>Speaking of TMS, a new depression treatment out of stanford has come out recently that sounds similar
Funny you mention this, I was reading about it on HN a few days ago. It gave me hope. I actually emailed the group asking to be a part of a future study.
>This is something I wonder too. Could I have trained myself into this state? Is this a learned behavior? Has years of laziness and gratification seeking created a state where effort is no longer an option?
That's what I think about myself, and medicine won't magically undo the years of instant gratification. I read atomic habits (https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habits) and am trying to integrate good habits/clear out some worse ones in addition to medication/therapy. It's fucking hard to make new habits.
It really does pain me to know that anyone, including yourself, suffers with depression. It's an illness which I would not wish onto even my worst enemy, because of how cruel it really is. You are living life, but you are not truly alive. Depression kills you day by day.
I'm sorry that none of the treatments have worked for you. I can understand how that leaves you feeling very little hope. It may provide some comfort to know however, that it is often a problem of finding the one treatment that works. It's a crude science of essentially trial and error, but there should still be some hope that you can find some combination of medication and therapy that will help. Don't give up on your search. It's a matter of life and death.
The social aspect very well could be a major factor for you. Given you have tried so many medications, that does lead one to wonder if it's not some chemical imbalance but rather a deep void left by a feeling of disconnectedness from social circles. In that case, you owe it to yourself to work on this.
Work on becoming more social. Just like learning to ride a bike, or learning geometry, you can learn to be more social. Do it for your mental health. I fully understand how it feels to hear the words "work" as someone with depression. It's the great conundrum of the disease - you have no energy, no willpower, no drive, nothing. Giving advice to "work on yourself" is well, bad advice frankly. But that's where therapy, and medication, can give you the little "boost" that you need to start putting in the work to your personal life where it's needed most.
How to be social is about finding your community, your people.
Your empathy warms my heart. I appreciate the advice. It’s valid, and it makes a ton of sense to frame it in terms of “life and death”. It’s interesting, I was recently talking with my therapist about “my people” and commented on how I feel like I don’t have any people; that I don’t belong anywhere. You’re right that I owe it to myself to improve this part of my life. (You’re also right that I recoil at the thought of “work”, haha)
I hope you won’t think I’m a creep for this: I clicked on your profile and noticed you left a comment on the Stanford SAINT trials that were posted here a few days ago. I remember reading your comment and the thread it spawned. That post was actually what put TMS on my mind. (I also emailed the group asking to be a part of future studies.)
I’m really sorry to hear that you’ve been dealing with this much longer than I have. I read about those who have been suffering for decades and it always makes me feel a strange combination of empathy and astonishment. From that earlier thread, it sounds like we have some similar experiences. I too lack the “kick” to do basic tasks. I have so many questions. Is this something you still deal with? Have you found some treatment that works? How have you kept going after 20 years? A question I’ve been grappling with: how does one distinguish between “depression” and “laziness”?
Btw, since this thread is getting long, I thought I would drop an email in case you (or some other reader) were interested in chatting later: hackernewsthrowaway@fastmail.com
You've tried many things, and I have two suggestions that may help, social connections and yoga. You can do both together at some yoga studios with events like the kiirtaan singing as well as the exercise classes. ps Yoga rather than other exercises as it regulates hormones and organs as well as other benefits of exercise.
And regular yoga brings feelings of joy, adds delicious juiciness to life.
You said something that I have experienced as well:
> I don’t think my problems are ever going away. It’s been years, and every aspect of my life is way better than when this all started. Except my mental health. I still feel just as shitty as I did 6 years ago.
I became very aware that my mental health was in very bad shape about 6 years ago. Ever since then I have been on a journey to try and understand why, because, as you stated, every aspect of my life (for the most part), expect my mental health, was better than when I became very aware of the problems.
I don't know if this will apply to you, but, on the chance that it does or that it applies to someone else, I wanted to share some articles and videos that helped me better understand what I have been going through:
Thanks for sharing your experience and these resources. I read/watched each of them.
The OCD ones were especially interesting — I actually clicked around to some of the other articles on that site. I relate very much to the “obsessive” bits, but not so much to the “compulsion”. I spend a stupid amount of time thinking of past events, worrying about my mental health, and rehearsing imaginary conversations. I also obsess heavily about aspects of my girlfriend’s past, and this is something that has been observed by my therapist. I don’t know that I would qualify as OCD, though.
Congruent depression is something I wonder about a lot, although I haven’t heard it described in those terms before. I most often think about it in the context of Johann Hari’s TED Talk [1]. If I have congruent depression, it’s because I’m lonely. At the same time, I have no desire to hang out with people. This problem has really been exacerbated by Covid since I’ve been working remotely. I used to get “enough” social interaction from being in the office, but now I haven’t seen any of my coworkers in nearly 2 years.
Thanks again for sharing. Would love to hear more of your thoughts if anything else comes to mind.
Just before my marriage, I knew my wife had depression. Now we have been together for more than 12 years.
She has never recovered from depression thoroughly, so I have accepted this is a lifelong situation. I agree with the point "when they talk, listen." Because in my experience, the talk will become an argument finally. And that will hurt everyone in this family. So let's listen.
My sincere advice is to think twice when you love someone with depression. It will be very hard.
1. As the partner, you will be in a dilemma. You can not force them to see the doctors or take the medicines, as it's irrespective. And you are not willing to do nothing, you want to help.
2. Sometimes it's a competition. Either you will help your partner out or your partner will destroy you. You might feel the only one you can help is yourself.
So think twice. If you still decide to move on, you need to find out a way to take care of yourself. So that you can stay on this hard journey.
My wife has something close to borderline personality disorder with the primary feature of fear of abandonment (she was abandoned as a child).
As you can imagine, this has been stressful. Culminating in her attempting suicide when I had to go to work one morning.
Luckily after three tries, the fourth therapist did the trick. He specialized in treating emotional regulation disorders with DBT therapy. My wife can now function in life, its incredible. People who interact with her now wouldn't recognize her from 3 years ago.
I feel that this author falls for the exact same mistake with their intended audience that they accuse them of doing.
From the wording I thought it would be an article on identifying and empathising with the less-visible curse of depression, that of being a carer. Instead it was just advice, intended to help not the carer, but the advice giver, to feel better that they've actively tried to 'fix' the problem.
Living with someone with depression can be taxing on your own well-being, especially without a support group. Being supportive, always saying the right thing, etc. You absolutely need to find time for yourself. In my case, exploring new adventures on my own, always with an open invitation, sparked hope & excitement in my partner.
Listening is everything. Turn off the problem solver part of your brain and just experience their emotions and listen. Ask questions based on what they have said, try not to assume or think 2 steps ahead.
Going through different medications with your partner is rough too. The side effects suck, and some medicine doesnt help or makes things worse. Trintellix helped my partner, after 2 or 3 others failed medications. Those were a tough few months.
My recent 2 cents for partners, try taking a personality test on behalf of your partner. The results, may give you some better understanding of them... Especially if they are reserved and unwilling to open up and whatnot.
I've done this recently and I'm quite surprised by the accuracy of a lot of the content that I read about different personality types. For some in my family, reading descriptions of their personalities has been comically accurate. Maybe reading about their personalities just helps me to think more objectively and clearly about their own emotions, rather than getting it all mixed up in my own emotions.
You can search like "INTJ unhappiness" and read up on their perspective.
Maybe this all sounds dumb to you, but just give it at shot. At the least it'll be kind of fun to take the test on their behalf and see what the results are like.
Just want to add that I think these are useful to get general ideas of what different personality traits there are, but there's little to no science backing the Meyers-Briggs assessment. These type of tests can be nice framework for a starting point, but you should never rely on them to predict how someone will act in the future more than you would astrology.
https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/does-the-myers-b...
For background - the test was created by a mother-daughter team who were authors but with no background in psychology. They were inspired to create the test, but they couldn't convince any psychologists it was legitimate so they instead sold it to businesses as a way to assess employee strengths and weaknesses.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/myers-briggs-personality-test...
> As Emre explains, the test has become part of our neoliberal discourse about making yourself into a commodity, selling your personality, loving what you do
> It seems their ideas about personality and gender made them blind to structural problems so that they saw gender inequality as an individual problem.
Kinda unrelated to this discussion, but there's also this darker side to all these personality tests where they encourage people to fit into a certain role because it benefits a company and not because it's who they really are.
I'm so sorry, my partner was actually INFJ. I just put a random one there.
My INFJ issues were related to perfectionism.
We went to therapy together, and it helped.. would reccomend. Therapy is a great safe place to ask them "dumb" questions about their behavior and thoughts.
If you're not at that point yet, keep researching about their brand of unhappiness and see if any suggestions come up.
My father dated somebody who was manic depressive and his life was a living hell but he wouldn't leave because he worried what might happen to her. I was living at his house after the service while in college and it was as if he himself were bipolar. She would treat him like shit so he would be sad/upset and difficult to be around. He would have a free schedule so we would plan a day and then he would get a call that she "needs" him so he would immediately leave. Then she'd kick him out and in two days "need" him again.
Having depression or being bipolar doesn't give you the right to treat other humans like trash.
Indeed. I dated someone who gaslighted me like this, treated me poorly and then held the specter of suicide over my head to keep me in line. Messed me up, let me tell you.
It can be really difficult to see when you've crossed the invisible threshold between supporting someone you love who is in pain and being an enabler who is participating in your own abuse.
I don't particularly like to talk about this, but for anyone who needs to hear it:
If you find yourself in a situation where you are being hurt by someone you care about, and you can't get them to stop - do whatever it takes to leave, immediately. Destroy your phone if you have to. For me, I couldn't think clearly and make good decisions through the fog that they and I had erected. If they hurt themselves after you leave - that is not on you, it never was. You're in a burning building. Get out with your life.
If you have friends and you see concerning behavior - don't stop telling them that it isn't okay. Remind them them that they deserve to be respected. Remind them that their mental health matters, too.
ETA:
I worry I came off as an ablest here, so I'd like to elaborate a little bit.
I don't believe depression makes people behave this way. I believe narcissism is what makes people behave this way. Virtually everyone I know has struggled with depression at some point in there life, and to my knowledge, only 2 of them have behaved this way towards anybody.
While one cannot allow themselves to be hurt like this, these people are of course in great pain and deserve empathy and respect.
The advice in the article is great. What has helped me manage my own depression is accepting there is no solution, in the sense that nothing will permanently fix it and make it go away forever, and the strategies that work today won't work forever. But there is a lot that can be done. I've seen such amazing results in friends when they found the right therapist, right medication, whatever worked for them. It's incredible and life affirming, but it's also slow and subtle and hard and painful. So slow and subtle they might not notice it themselves.
I've found the best way I can help is to be there for them consistently, and, when they're feeling lost, remind them of past conversations we've had and how far they've come. Ultimately you can only help yourself. But sometimes a friend can hold onto a nugget of your own wisdom, and give it back to you later.
I have been living with a bipolar/depressed spouse for the past ten years. About once every three or four years we have a major episode (often a depressive abyss immediately following a manic period). I feel deeply for anyone suffering this or similar diseases…but I’m also tired of articles like this one at this point. It feels like they all come at me from this perspective of what I need to do for my spouse while they completely ignore the insane burdens that I’m faced with every day. (I’m not interested in being told how I can help anymore, because the truth is that I can’t help; I can wait until time or adjusting meds makes the condition manageable again.)
It’s *hard* to “just listen” without judging when your spouse can barely get out of bed or shower; when they don’t clean up after themselves in the bathroom, kitchen, or other shared areas; and they abandon or abdicate their part of any shared responsibilities in the family. I felt like any attempt that I made to pick up the slack just created room for them to retreat even more into their depression—and at times like that it feels like the stress and frustration is killing me.
So to all the spouses, family, and friends who support bipolar or depressed folks: I see you. I feel what you feel—love, frustration, guilt, anger, resentment, and hope. You don’t owe anyone else anything, and it’s OK if you can’t do everything on your own.
I don't think "just listening" is even an acknowledged treatment of depression. So they say nothing works, you can't tell them to do anything because their brain is just broken, but supposedly "just listening" works? I'd say the article is simply unfounded bullshit.
There was a time when I was caring for my spouse when I kind of wished I would have a heart attack that would hospitalize me but not kill me, so I wouldn't have to carry the burden for a bit. I don't know what I would have done if we didn't luck into finding a therapist who specialized in her problems.
This is not constructive advice. It is a heck of a lot more complicated than this is making it out to be. You wouldn't leave your loved one with a broken leg until the "found their own way" to the doctor.
Sure, you'd take them to the doctor for a broken leg, and help them as they get better. I'd leave someone that didn't do this.
But if the person refused to go to the doctor, what do you do then? How do you assess if they are bad enough to try to force them into hospitalisation if they aren't obviously a danger to anyone? What if the broken leg winds up causing abusive behavior (on repeated occasions) - do you stay? If their leg doesn't heal correctly and you have to care for them, can you handle the stress? What happens if you find out you aren't a good caregiver and it makes you hate your life?
I know these examples seem extreme, but it is closer to what folks sometimes deal with when their loved one has a mental illness.
There is some good points in here, but the advice about not trying to drag someone out of the tunnel is off.
Ive been very depressed and had very depressed friends. Getting then outside, on walks, with friends, and doing the things they like again is very useful. Even it it doesn't do anything that day going through the motions is useful. Depressed people don't feel like doing anything they'll have to do things they don't want to or they'll never leave the bed.
Are there any kind of financial support programs for people with depression?
I feel like I'm stuck in this trap where I am not healthy enough to endure full time employment, but I don't have enough income to pay for treatment.
I expect there might be government services available, but I'm dubious of their efficacy.
What I'd love is some sort of grant program where the goal is to help intelligent semi-effective people improve themselves by healing their depression.
There are programs, non-profits, and alternative treatments depending on the country/region/state/city. If you are able to send US text messages for free to/from the US, you can use X2AI’s chatbot for free by texting “YC” to (650) 825-9634. It will at least get you access to CBT coaching, which has shown to help. Medication (once one finds the right one for themselves) helps many, but here is a good TED talk on approaches without medication: https://youtu.be/drv3BP0Fdi8
Depending on how much money you make, you should be able to get a subsidized marketplace health are plan (Obamacare). If you are single and make around $25k a year, your premiums would be near $0 in most states. And they have full mental health coverage.
When I read these comments and see so many fellow HNers are in are in relationships with depressed partners it makes me wonder what’s going on. My ex wife was severely depressed for over a decade and so is my new partner of a couple years. I know leaving my ex was the right thing to do but now I’m back in a pretty similar situation. Having a partner who won’t get out of bed til after noon, won’t exercise, and eats only junk will drag you down no matter how hard you personally work on your own health.
People cope differently. I know i gravitate towards doing more things (and used to buy more things) and i felt like "doing" was better than "not doing" but both were unhealthy sides of the same coin.
I used to joke "man, if only there was a few months where i could sit at home and finish all the things i wanted to do" and 2 years into covid being at home i haven't done any of that shit i realized my extreme desire to stay busy and occupied was no different than my partners desire to not feel like do anything - i just "coped" differently.
Once we got over that, we could realize what each other were doing and not feel like it was poisoning the relationship. My wife now gives me space and I give her space but we meet in the middle a lot more and things have gotten better.
We practice the relaionship bits with intention now and that helps too.
I won’t comment on the depression, but I do see a lot of marital struggles reading through the comments, and that resonates with me too. Marriage can be such a struggle sometimes. Last year I finally said enough is enough.
I can’t recommend for everyone, and I’m not a doctor, so please take with a grain of salt. Some practical things that has helped little old me.
Date nights once a week. Get a babysitter. For me and my wife we both grew up in very conservative families where it was taboo to get one and to leave the kids and go out for a date (heck even dating was taboo). But we found a nice babysitter and went out. It helped us a lot, just making space to talk and spend time away from the house.
Couples psilocybin session. Again I’m not a doctor and there are risks here, so do your homework. But this is really good for coming closer. It helps unearth some of the possibly toxic dynamics that see poisoning the relationship and makes it apparent to both parties. But then you have to do the work of continuously staying conscious and integrating the lessons in your life.
*Saying enough is enough and being the partner to initiate the above and do something about it.
Are there any citations to the claims she is making in her article about the nature of depression and the things people should do around depressed people? Like she claims "listening" is the correct thing to do, so supposedly it helps against depression?
Tbh it sounds to me more like a power thing "see I am depressed, and you are treating me all wrong and you have to do this and that because I am depressed".
It may be something that 'feels' better while not making much impact on the situation, however providing fleeting temporary relief in the moment of being heard and feeling connected.
I guess if there's nothing that will help then temporary relief is good.
However I also guess than in many situations there are things that can make lasting positive impact, if they can be found. Finding these positive impactful things requires action though not just listening.
The art is in knowing when to listen and when to act
Somehow I enjoy HN the most as threads such as this develop and lots of people express their struggles, doubts and their vulnerabilities. This is brave, and appreciated.
I put this as a sub-sub-reply in a different chain, but this 100%. I know for me, when our couples therapist talked to me about codependency it felt like a full on attack. "How dare he suggest that I'M the one with a problem?? SHE'S the one that has to change!!" That sort of thing.
It was very hard to overcome the defensiveness but remains the best thing I've ever done for my own mental wellbeing. It's important not to hear the word "codependent" as an attack.
The book "Codependent No More" was a lifechanger for me. I highly recommend it to anyone struggling in a situation like this.
To whatever degree a thing is treatable with medication, I think it can be deemed to be a medical condition with somatopsychic side effects. And we should strive to embrace that idea and figure out how to heal whatever is wrong physically, in cases where that is one element of the issue.
Mental health issues are hard in part because the person who has it can't trust their own judgement. If people around you don't understand or are trying to force a solution on you against your will that isn't actually in your best interest, that combo can help keep you stuck.
I'm glad it's getting talked about. That's definitely a step in the right direction.
Speaking as a parent with a job and a small kid who has to do childcare, job, housework, cooking, everything while my partner lies in bed playing video games on their phone.... it is phenomenally frustrating.
What really sucks about depression is that it is functionally a very selfish disease from the perspective of the people providing support. The person won't do the bare minimum of their responsibilities, and will only exert effort, creativity, desire, and motivation to ... defend their depression and depressive activities.
My health suffers, my fitness suffers, my stress suffers, my job suffers, my kid suffers.
It's one of those mental "possessions/invasions" like addiction where communicating with a person about their specific problem becomes a strange otherworldly conversation with an isolated part of the brain specifically dedicated to perpetuating and defending that self-destructive cycle of behavior. It's basically like a disassociated alternate personality.
Part of the tendency of human mental conditions to try to inflict themselves upon other people is that I think profoundly deep trauma makes someone lonely, and only the expression of disorders or inflicting the same wound on others alleviates that lonliness in a perverse cycle, which inflicts the same trauma on others.
And thus there are classes of mental illness that I do think can be viewed as "infectious".
I can relate a lot to this having had mild depression over many years. All the advice and attempts at “fixing” the problem can just make you not want to talk about it. You just don’t want to hear the same damn advise over and over again.
I think what I found hardest is the assumption that a person with depression in addition to doing their job has energy and motivation to do a multitude of activities which is supposed to make you well.
One thing that helped me was to be on partial sick leave. I would go to work but spend less time there. The left over time I would spend on taking long walks. I would just walk through the city and look at old architecture.
It was a sort of real low effort activity I could pull off. A lot of other stuff was just too hard to motivate myself to.
You need stuff that is easy to do and be given the time to do it. With depression you don’t have energy and motivation to do all the normal chores.
The worst is when absolutely nothing is fun or interesting. Everything is just a void. All the things you normally love means nothing to you.
For me one of the most painful things was completely losing the joy of playing with my children. I had a lot of fun doing it before depression. But depression more or less permanently robbed me of that joy.
You feel terrible when playing with your own kids become the worst chore possible. You so want to like it. But you cannot because something is broken in your head.
Only positive I think has come out of it is a stronger ability to empathize with other people who struggle. It is easier to see how people are not necessarily living the life they want to live. They are just managing as best they can.
Something I’m curious about is how folks handle depression and its impacts with their employers/bosses. For context I am generally a high performer who is now on my second bout of below standard performance since the pandemic.
A few thoughts I have:
* I am getting help (again), it didn’t feel like the last therapist I had understood or empathized how this was affecting my work performance so trying elsewhere
* I believe the job itself is both a cause and effect. I’m reevaluating what I want out of a job in terms of fulfillment. I also moved from a technical to more people facing role, good during good times but not good during down times. Finally I’ve come to terms with the job itself may not be a good fit for me, but finding a new one is especially exhausting when dealing with depression/anxiety
* I’m not choosing to mention any of this to my manager - my below standard appears to be around average or at least acceptable for my position based on feedback/reviews, the biggest consequences are lack of new opportunities and slow erosion of trust over past couple of months
It doesn’t seem like there’s a playbook on this so would love to hear others’ thoughts.
Can't give any great advice here, but my intuition is that it's going to depend a lot on the company.
I have friends that have worked retail jobs where they aren't going to care at all and will probably use it as an excuse to fire you.
I work at a company where a coworker was fired and afterwards told some of us that they were dealing with mental health stuff causing it, and I think my company would have been more helpful if they brought it up earlier by perhaps helping to find a therapist through the insurance or changing their roles for a while. For example if the frustrating part of coding is tough to get into, maybe switch to building out documentation so you have something you can see tangible progress on daily/hourly, and would still let them add the same amount of value if not more.
The big rule on this is that you should not out-and-out lie about your condition, but that doesn't mean you need to explain things. Like I've taken days off and explained to my boss that I have a personal medical condition that needs taking care of. This is usually fine for an occasional absence or down day.
For complex situations where your boss may want to know what's going on so that he can plan critical activities, there's not a simple answer.
I've previously been diagnosed with BP, ADHD and depression. Tried all sorts of meds. I was never debilitated by these conditions but felt it was holding me back. Several trips to South America, a lot of work on cleansing my body and diet, and I found love for life and a fire inside. I released all my past grievances, reformed new perspectives, let go of strong opinions and learned not to connect feelings with identity, observing them coming and going instead.
Through this I have developed such a love and thirst for life. Each day I wake up and write what I am grateful for. Every day is a gift.... the simpler the thing that I can genuinely feel grateful for (example a glass of water) the great freedom and distance I feel from those conditions.
I feel for those going through this and I wish you the very best.
I remember starting to dip into mental health issues several months ago. Sadly, unlike some of the commentators here, my family ignored my requests for help. It wasn’t a typical depression, and as I came to learn last month, had a neurological component. This news combined with my other symptoms makes me feel like I’m covid long hauling. If anything, I was/am depressed at my inability to do stuff like I used to be able to. Therapy is helping me a lot with the situation.
My boyfriend also happens to be fighting depression right now. It’s been a very weird time for the both of us learning about our conditions and how to navigate them, but we’re making it through. Plus I know one thing for certain.
He puts a smile on my face. c:
Thank you for sharing this article, and thank you everyone else for your stories too!
Living with me is quite difficult since I am suicidal a lot.
One of the biggest hells of depression for me is that I have
been through more than enough therapy that I can "view myself"
from the outside.
I can rerun conversations in my head that I have had many times
in therapy that are meant to enlighten me and show me that my
reasoning and thoughts are abnormal and even what it should be
instead.
The hell is that I can establish this from an "objective" observer
but I cannot change how I am. I cannot stop what goes inside my
head. If I could, I would have done so a long f.. time ago.
It all works out to torture me even more.
My recommendations for people I interact with:
1. Dont give me advice on how to get better.
Whatever you want to say, I have heard it a
million times. If you were to produce a novel
idea it wont help. (99,999999% sure).
2. Dont tell me to [grow up, get over myself,
change my attitude, go for a walk,... etc]
You are completely right in what you are saying.
I know this.
But like I said the hell is not being able to act o it.
3. Dont be condescending.
I am not a 5 year old child
I am not mentally retarded. Speaking slow or loud wont help.
under all the layers my brain is still firing, dont presume
I am a moron. {This actually happens a lot]
4. Dont ask if I want to talk about it.
I dont. Because I know it does not make any rational sense.
Thus confirming it is not and feeling judged by it.
However, sometimes I really need to talk, rant, curse,
So if you can take it, let me talk when I need to about it.
Most people cannot take it. (Not their fault in any way)
5. Utterly loud music.
For me something extremely aggressive.
Headphones do not work.
As Lemmy sings:
--Only way to feel the noise is when it's good and loud
--On your feet you feel the beat, it goes straight to your spine
I have to be able to really feel it.
I have the ability to do so.
It is one of the few things that quiets down my brain a bit.
Aligns it.
However, I know my neighbors, people across the street, people
above and below, do not at all feel the same way.
So even though it helps, I cannot do that.
Another f... me.
I wish I lived in the woods, or I could afford to soundproof my living
room. Given cheap apartment construction, I am not sure if it is possible,
if it is, it would take up so much space that there is nothing left.
All I need is to build a room inside my room and suspend it somehow
and ensure that there is a layer of absolute vacuum encompassing it.
Easy.
6. Sometimes I get locked in and I cannot make a decision one something.
A subtle iteration of non-horrible possibilities is helpful when done right
but it is asking a lot from another human being.
I am hungry, but I dont know what to eat.
Everything is bleak anyways and everything sucks.
Then a few minutes out, I am hungry (rinse and repeat).
I can get stuck in this for hours inside my head.
Having someone who knows me go over some non-horrible ideas and
helping me think they are plausible helps me.
(but taxing for whoever does it).
7. When something eventually brings about the need for suicide as an
imminent and positive idea. It is hell for everyone and its nearly
impossible to handle.
I mean I can again understand it.
Seeing someone you care about potentially killing themselves
in a couple of minutes puts a stress on anyone.
"Dont do it, I love you, dont . "
I dont have any general advice for it.
I have pushed away the people in my life.
I live alone.
There is no one I can call, except the ambulance.
See it has lasted for years. Decades.
People get fed up, tired, and move on, as they should.
Staying, esp over time is insane and not something you
can ask of another human.
I have dogs. Rescue dogs.
They are the only reason I am still on the Internet.
They impose a structure in my life.
They need walks, they need food, they need .. etc.
I still manage to think that they have a decent life with me.
I dont have anyone who could take them where I knew they would have a better life.
They never bullshit me.
They dont get angry at my bullshit.
They always appreciate interactions and can cuddle for hours.
Thanks so much for sharing your experience and feelings. I really appreciate it since I have someone I care about who was in depression and suicidal and I want to understand more. Hope you find the inner peace and strength to keep you happy.
These articles have the tendency to just switch one narrative for another.
We have one team who say "Depression does not really exist, it's a combination of laziness, time will simply heal, you need to summon some efforts and get over it.
And then we have another team of : "You need to listen, be empathetic, depression is real, it can be devastating, don't try to solve problems, just be patient and listen."
All in all, I am not learning anything. And neither address real questions.
- Should you just listen when your partner want to end his/her life
- What if you had enough? What if there are kids in the equation?
- How other societies are coping up with it. Asian countries are addressing it very differently for example.
We should be empathatic to everyone, not conditional of having or not having depression. The lack of general empathy humans have towards one another is a leading cause of depression - such as people being anti-women, anti-gay, anti-trans, racist, classist or politically biased in such a way that they seek out the thrill of having their "happiness" be at the cost of others.
If you're not learning anything, it sounds like you're just refusing to learn.
Learning doesn't mean having all the answers, learning means trying working towards the best outcomes and adapting as necessary based out outputs. With humans/emotions - it's not going to be learning that is absolute or even based on region/culture/ethnicity but those can certainly play broad roles.
"The lack of general empathy humans have towards one another is a leading cause of depression - such as people being anti-women, anti-gay, anti-trans, racist, classist or politically biased in such a way that they seek out the thrill of having their "happiness" be at the cost of others."
You're just making things up and politicizing a well studied subject. The leading causes of depression are brain chemistry, family history, physical health issues, substance abuse and personality.
Followed by less tangible causes like job loss, divorce, grieving, etc. Then there's hormonal changes as experienced by women that gave birth and finally, loneliness.
Nothing about what you said is a leading cause at all. For sure those issues do not help, but they are in no way a leading cause.
For anyone struggling with depression or living with a partner who does, I highly recommend Johann Hari’s book “Lost Connections”.
It’s a non-fiction journey through decades of research on depression, how the topic even surfaced on the academic horizon, and how we as deeply social creatures can unwind some of the environmental aspects which cause depression.
As a depressed person myself the book is so well structured and has brought a level of clarity on the topic I haven’t seen elsewhere. Really helpful for getting into an actionable mindset.
I'm in a situation like that right now, well, my wife is, i suffer from a very strong depression that is destroying my life, relationships, jobs and hobby's, to be fair i don't know how she can endure that.
My depression keeps me away from doctors, friends, it keep me in the same job position because i can't find forces to learn more things, i am still fighting this war and i hope to get well some time
I found this podcast to be insightful: https://beyondthetodolist.com/374 Julie Fast on Getting Things Done with Depression. The episode is probably more useful for someone that hasn't struggled with severe depression than for those that have.
Due to my constant struggle with a worsening depression, 8 months ago my partner of 10 years left me. She couldn't handle it anymore. Everyone gives you advice on how to deal with breakups, and it feels like it's directed at people in 2 or 4 or 6 year relationships. Don't talk to your ex, work on yourself, find things that make you happy, reconnect with your friends... In my case my partner was the last thing keeping me above water. And that was too much of a struggle for her. I don't blame her for leaving. I just wish she didn't have to. But she did have to. I was bad for her.
Part of depression, for me, is that you never feel like yourself. Your words and actions don't match with who you want to be. I think it's hard to describe to someone without depression what it means to NEVER feel happy. To see the look on someone's face when they turn to you full of joy and then they realize that you aren't. To live in a pit of constant self hatred and fear because one day you're afraid you're going to snap and kill yourself and hurt the people around you who made the stupid choice to value your presence. To watch yourself crumble away as things get worse inside of you because things outside of you are getting better, and you're terrified of that. I remember times that I would say mean-spirited, hurtful comments about things she liked or did for no reason. I would see the hurt in her eyes and feel ashamed, and I would hate myself more for lashing out at someone who didn't hurt me in the first place. When I wasn't being thoughtlessly mean, I tried to be open and explain the darkness inside me, and it was horrifying to explain that there's a void inside you that nothing--not even your beloved partner--can fill. Eventually, I began avoiding talking at all, because I couldn't trust the words that came out of my mouth to not cause harm, but when I did that, all she felt was me withdrawing even more. How could I tell her I loved her when I kept hurting her? My words felt empty, even to me. I became a husk of myself, and it scarred her beyond repair.
The author of this article seems very kind, and maybe the person with depression in their life has a milder form than what I'm dealing with. The point I'm trying to make is that the author doesn't even make it sound half as terrible as it actually was for her. I was terribly emotionally abusive, not in the way that media portrays it where I'm a possessive, malicious actor trying to actively cause harm to my partner to keep them entangled with me, but in the sense that I was just an endless pit of unhappiness and no matter how much joy and love we tried to pour into me, it was never enough. Towards the end of things I began sabotaging our relationship, consciously or unconsciously I don't know, because I wanted her to be free of me. She ended up living with the torment that I live in because my emptiness can expand seemingly endlessly, and she deserved better.
Maybe this post is more of a personal confession than actual advice, but if I had to think of advice, I would say seriously consider the psilocybin therapy option. I went on a few solo trips since my relationship ended and it has made significant headway into my headspace--at least enough headway to be able to recognize and understand the things I have talked about in this post (I wasn't nearly so clearheaded at the time and could never have explained any of these thoughts to her then!), And they have stopped the suicidal urges. I wish I had done it sooner, maybe I would have been able to save my budding family from falling apart. I had been scared of "drugs" prior to then due to my upbringing, but they aren't anything like how the media depicts them.
If you're depressed and in a relationship: do anything you can to get help now, before you get worse. Don't make my mistake and think that traditional efforts will work "eventually." Eventually isn't good enough when you're hurting the people around you.
At the beginning, I thought this was written by someone like me - i.e. the not clinically depressed person in a relationship. I'm impressed this person had the insight and compassion to understand what the people around him went through, and thought, and the strategies they composed, while trying to rescue him from it. For me, ten years of watching the love of my life struggle with severe manic/depressive episodes, there are a few more bits of advice I could add for the partner of someone with depression, but everything he says here is accurate. Specifically:
* You can't just entertain them with novelty; it doesn't last
* You can't drag them out of bed, or of the darkness
* You can't argue or reason it out - you'll end up depressed yourself if you try.
What you can do is internalize their reasoning and find that you don't accept the ultimate, inescapable negativity that they see everywhere. You can be unreasonably kind and forgiving. You can never lose your temper. You can see the things you know they would love to see in the world, if they got out of their hole, and you can gently try to put them in the orbit of those things and point those things out to them every day, to get their internal excitement and curiosity about the world spinning up again a little bit.
There are so many things you shouldn't do, the list would be too long to write here. But the number one thing is not to try to out-depress the depressed. It's good to hug them and to be there and to go into the darkness with them. But if you take this on, you can never let it infect you. If you're in love with a clinically depressed person:
* You can never have a bad day.
* You can never tell them that you, too, question the reason we're alive or the meaning of the universe.
* You can never respond the way you would with a normal, self-regulating person, when you shoot the shit about how fucked up everything is. Or even some specific thing. Like how fucked up some twitter thread is. You can never let something visibly get to you, because your depressed person will take that as a cue that it should really get to them. They aren't just depressed; they take cues from what's around them and they will be more depressed the more depressed other people are.
For this reason, it's urgent that you pretend like everything is fine. You have to understand that clinically depressed people take more than they give. This is okay because they aren't doing it to gain power or to hurt anyone. Being able to give and adapt to them makes you a stronger person; it forces you to be a superhero, no matter how much you don't want to be. No matter how much you want to get depressed too, you know you just can't because someone's relying on you. It makes you better at coping with all the hard parts of life because, if she can't cope, someone has to cope, and the only someone is you. But it's hard. And you'll rarely or never hear a heartfelt moment of understanding / apology like the one in this post. You have to know that you're doing good, without anyone else ever telling you that you did a good job, or that it's going to be okay. And with most of your friends and family telling you to get away from the crazy person who you love more than anything.
You'll be alright, person who loves and supports depressed person. It'll make you stronger in the end.
Fortunately for me, my family would not tolerate me in this condition and forced to me to get out of bed and dragged me to doctors and checked me into mental health units until we found the right doctor who perscribed the right medication that worked. Turns out typical anti-depressants don't work on me because I am bipolar and was experiencing bipolar depression.
It's been three years of recovery now and I am very happy. I take my quatiepine every night and get the sleep I need so I don't relaspe into mania and then depression.
My family is not sophisticated about mental illness. They would rather not think about it. But the one thing they did is to refuse to let me remain in that state and forced me to take action.