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Possible climate futures–from the optimistic to the strange (nationalgeographic.com)
48 points by elenaturner on Aug 28, 2021 | hide | past | favorite | 32 comments



I just can't honestly believe how anyone who's lived through the past 18 months thinks anything but the worst case scenario is possible. Right now in parts of the US we have hospitals and ICUs that are at higher occupancy than they have been at any time during the pandemic, despite the fact that simple, safe, cheap and relatively unobtrusive measures that can prevent this have been widely available for months.

Compare that with what is needed to fight climate change, which is complex, expensive and at direct odds with the most straightforward pathway for billions of people to raise their standard of living (at least in the current moment). It is simply not possible with human nature to fight this calamity, at least how it has been presented.

I could see an outcome where advances in renewable energy and storage tech occur fast enough to make fossil fuels uncompetitive, but it's very difficult to see that happening fast enough to stave off disaster.

I feel like we've jumped off a tall cliff with no parachute, but because the valley floor is still a ways below we are trying to convince ourselves that we can knit a new parachute fast enough before we hit the ground.

Humans don't like to acknowledge that some situations are just not avoidable. I think the best we can do (at least at an individual level of you have the means) is to prepare for a much more unstable future world.


> Right now in parts of the US we have hospitals and ICUs that are at higher occupancy than they have been at any time during the pandemic, despite the fact that saimple, safe, cheap and relatively unobtrusive measures that can prevent this have been widely available for months.

I presume you're referring to the fact that we had plenty of time to push back against climate change, but year over year have refused to make progress. Perhaps you're also upset about the lack of true leadership towards that goal?

Much the same leadership / system has been incompotent and negligent over the last 18 months.Agreed, you're correct, if we had able and willing leaders more people might assimilate, else yes there's plenty of reason for doubt and lack of compliance.

It's easy and normalized to blame the powerless. But we proles would be wise to resist that convenience and being to hold the powerful accountable. The current status quo isn't working.


> I could see an outcome where advances in renewable energy and storage tech occur fast enough to make fossil fuels uncompetitive

This has, I think, near enough happened already. What we're battling currently is inertia, vested interests, and misinformation.

With sufficient political vision and will, I think that the energy mix (both generation-side and consumption-side, across residential, commercial and industrial use) could change fairly swiftly.

There are so many upsides to renewables that we'll look back and question why fossil fuels remained in use for so long.

I've no association with the IEA but have been reading around their website a bit today and found an (optimistic, perhaps) report[1] of theirs on "Net Zero by 2050" inspiring.

The link below is to a page in the (CDN-hosted) report containing "Key Pillars of Decarbonisation" - actionable and well-explained suggestions on their net zero roadmap:

https://iea.blob.core.windows.net/assets/beceb956-0dcf-4d73-...

[1] - https://www.iea.org/reports/net-zero-by-2050


[flagged]


In certain places in the world today, going outside may kill them from heatstroke. The number of such places is rapidly increasing.


more die from cold


Well, WBT > 30C is not common anywhere people live in high numbers at the moment, so this is to be expected.


If we're myth busting, more die from too much food than not enough. Weight in excess is proven to weaken the immune system...


While the observation about the cold is fair, obesity is not "food in excess" the same way hunger is "missing food". We don't know the exact prime cause(s) of obesity, but the correlation between food availability and obesity is low.


In all but the <5% of occurrences where there is a hormonal imbalance or other medical issue, obesity is caused by eating too much food for your level of activity, full stop. Eating less and/or moving more will cause the vast, vast majority of obese people to lose weight. To say we don't know the cause of obesity is laughably wrong.

If you mean "food in excess" at the personal, not societal, level, it's a completely accurate statement.


> Eating less and/or moving more will cause the vast, vast majority of obese people to lose weight.

Sure, for a few months, and then they'll get back to their lifestyle and put the weight back. The real question of course is why so many people have started overeating since the 1980s, and that is definitely not explained by changes in food availability.

So sure, the proximate cause of obesity is chiar - eating more than you excersise - but the reason for this massive change in the behavior of the entire population is definitely not understood.


Going back to an old unhealthy lifestyle is largely irrelevant. The discussion here is what causes obesity. The answer, by and large, is eating too much food and doing too little exercise (either in quantity or strenuousness). So yes if you make a change, you'll lose weight, and if you change back, you'll gain the weight back. It's tautological.


No, that is the question you are trying to ask. But the real question is "why are so many people eating too much food now and/or doing too little exercise?". Somewhat related, why is losing weight long-term harder than kicking a heroin addiction?

Ending the question at "people eat too much food" is like finding out that since the last decade 30% of people have started falling and breaking their legs every year, and saying "people are clumsy and the concrete is hard, what's more to discuss?".


I mentioned above but I'll repeat it here as well. Humans conform to the norms around them. As weight went up and it became normalized there's no feeling of being alienated. Smoking is a good example. It went up. But then it became unpopular and declined.

Unfortunately, it's not acceptable to mention someone's weight. And the less that was allowed the more normalized it came be.

It's ok for Oprah and such to promote the idea of "love yourself." Unfortunately they failed to mention that some versions of yourself might be unhealthy.

And here we are, in the middle of a health pandemic and we are unable to discuss some of the root causes of worse outcomes.


> Humans conform to the norms around them. As weight went up and it became normalized there's no feeling of being alienated.

This fails to account for many properties of the obesity epidemic. I mentioned some elsewhere, but perhaps the most glaring flaw with your theory is that it doesn't explain why the epidemic began in the first place, and how it grew while it was still rare.

> Unfortunately, it's not acceptable to mention someone's weight. And the less that was allowed the more normalized it came be.

The actual reason it's not acceptable is because this angle has been studied, and it has been found to be actively harmful. Obese people don't become thinner by being told they are ugly, undesirable, about to die, lacking in willpower, or that they should eat more salad. If anything, this can lead to feelings of depression and more weight gain.

> And here we are, in the middle of a health pandemic and we are unable to discuss some of the root causes of worse outcomes.

This is true and it is a shame, but arguments like yours are exactly the reason. Instead of digging deeper and asking why are people overeating in the first place, 99% of discussions on obesity focus on lifestyle changes (the right diet, how to exercise more, lamenting modern trends etc). We're basically treating obesity mostly like we used to treat mental disorders (and still do to a great extent), and refusing to even try to look for environmental or other factors, that are much more likely for such a tectonic shift in the prevalence of obesity.

It's again important to remember that people didn't start getting obese with the advent of industrialization (1850s) or even modern automation (1940s-50s), but much later. Obesity was stable for thousands of years before 1980, and then it went from 1-3% to 30%. And this is not happening only in rich countries, it is happening in poor countries that work in the global economy. And it is not uniform in the populations of these countries, but geographically clustered and professionally clustered as well.


I'm not sure if it falls under thst 5% but certain psycho-meds trigger weigh gain. We do have plenty of ppl on such meds.

That aside, yes, the majority of overweight/obesity is a consumption + lifestyle choice.


Looking at NIMH data[0], about 7.1% of US adults are diagnosed with depression, and about half of those diagnosed receive medical treatment - so at least 3.5% of the population is receiving medically prescribed treatments that are known to cause weight issues from depression alone. Adding other mental illnesses, endocrine disorders, and drug abuse, I would bet that at least 10% of the population is receiving drugs that are known to affect weight regulation mechanisms.

Still, this is a far cry from the >30% experiencing obesity, especially since not all psychoactive drugs alter body weight, and only a percentage of people taking those drugs that do will experience weight changes.

[0] https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/major-depression


> We don't know...

That's not accurate.

We know that more calories in than calories burned leads to weight gain.

We know that the body + mind has nutritional requirements. If those are not met the body + mind will ccontinue to pursue those requirements. That is "empty calories" have a cost associated with them.

We know that (urban) food deserts impact consumption of (quality) foods and inturn health.

We know that humans conform to the norms they see around them. That is, "normalize" a condition and humans will adjust. Smoking is a good example. So is obesity.

We know that epigenetics is a thing, and that what you consume has impact, in some cases on future generations.

Obesity is a relatively new First World Problem. The idea that there's been some mass change in DNA just isn't reasonable compared to the obvious (too many calories vs not enough exercise). Oprah lied.


> We know that the body + mind has nutritional requirements. If those are not met the body + mind will ccontinue to pursue those requirements. That is "empty calories" have a cost associated with them.

While this is likely true, it is not a well defined theory at the moment, it is handwavy speculation. It especially doesn't explain why this started happening in the 1980s - empty calories and deserts existed in plentiful quantities for at least a hundred years before that, with approximately 0 obesity relatively speaking.

It also doesn't explain other patterns of obesity that we see today. Particularly, that obesity prevalence tends to decrease with altitude, that it varies by profession, and that it varies by country despite wealth (e.g. Japan is one of the richest but also least obese countries in the world).

> We know that epigenetics is a thing, and that what you consume has impact, in some cases on future generations.

Again, we know this in a handwavy sense, not in a quantifiable sense.

> Obesity is a relatively new First World Problem. The idea that there's been some mass change in DNA just isn't reasonable compared to the obvious (too many calories vs not enough exercise). Oprah lied.

It's not a First World Problem, it's a problem even in extremely poor countries. And yes, genetic causes are not in any way likely - not sure who is claiming that.

My money is on environmental causes, some contaminant that we're not aware of at the moment, either in food or in something else.

One interesting candidate is lithium, which is known to produce weight gain in therapeutic doses (it is a common psychiatric medication), and is known to be present in small doses as a contaminant in drinking water. Lithium mining became widespread sometime around the 1980s, so the time-line is possible.

If you're curious to delve deeper into why common ideas about the obesity epidemic are wrong, here is a very interesting series of blog posts: https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/08/02/a-chemical-hunger-p...


People adapt. We survived ice age, we will survive warmer climate.


I agree, I think "we", as a society will adapt. But I also can't help being put off by the nonchalant manner of that comment, given that "adapting" will result in extreme levels of upheaval, and the resulting resource wars and societal instability.

Yes, we'll adapt, and huge swaths of humanity will die and suffer as a result.


If your bar is "a few thousand people survive" then most scenarios will seem OK, but that's not really what we're generally talking about.


The sprinkling of bias throughout the article does not help it bring attention to the problem. Here are two words that have apparently been broadly discussed by the IPCC report [1] judging by the article, that the report itself never mentions: "nationalism", "healthcare". The best way to make climate change not a political issue is to NOT make it a political issue.

[1] https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/downloads/report/IPCC_AR6...


> ... nations representing approximately two-thirds of global emissions have now committed to zeroing out their emissions by the middle of the century. If these countries are able to make good on their pledges ...

I don't know of any climate target/goal/pledge that was ever met by any government.


I think EU has met its 2020 targets [1].

[1] https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/strategies/progress_en


I think the most likely future is one where we do mostly nothing for a long time, until things get quite bad, and then one nation or a small group of nations does some kind of solar geoengineering to very quickly lower the temperature of the Earth. Mostly this takes the form of pumping aerosols in to the atmosphere to block out some percentage of sunlight. As far as I understand it we already have the technology to pull this off, and it's not so expensive (tens of billions per year) that a single very rich nation couldn't bear the cost themselves.

At the very least, I can't imagine a nation like China or India or the US staring down a relatively imminent existential climate change threat and not at least trying geoengineering. At that point what do you have to lose?


Agreed. When things get bad, there's going to huge pressure on politicians to do something, and at that point there's probably not going to be any good answers. Geoengineering is risky, especially if it's rushed, but it's within the means of many of the countries that will be worst affected by climate change. Even if it has a very low chance of working and a high chance of worsening the situation for everyone, I'm sure at least one political leader is going to pull the trigger when they've got an angry mob beating down their door demanding action.


>Fossil-fueled Development – Taking the Highway (High challenges to mitigation, low challenges to adaptation) This world places increasing faith in competitive markets, innovation and participatory societies to produce rapid technological progress and development of human capital as the path to sustainable development. Global markets are increasingly integrated. There are also strong investments in health, education, and institutions to enhance human and social capital. At the same time, the push for economic and social development is coupled with the exploitation of abundant fossil fuel resources and the adoption of resource and energy intensive lifestyles around the world. All these factors lead to rapid growth of the global economy, while global population peaks and declines in the 21st century. Local environmental problems like air pollution are successfully managed. There is faith in the ability to effectively manage social and ecological systems, including by geo-engineering if necessary.

Compared to the other four scenarios this one sounds a lot better even with the massive environmental challenge it would pose. The economic outcome of the “best case” scenario sounds more like universal poverty.

>inequality is reduced both across and within countries. Consumption is oriented toward low material growth and lower resource and energy intensity


I am looking for an old page from 3-5 years ago that presented 4 or 5 short stories with possible futures and themed around climate change.

One of them started with people living in an artificial moving island, growing food from algae and based on nuclear/renewables energy.

Another one started with someone living in a dystopian building and references to a rampant plague.

I lost the bookmark and I could never find it online again, does that ring any bell to anyone ?


That webpage is absolutely determined to stop me from reading the article. It's like an obstacle course of popup crap.


Use reader mode


You'd think "reader mode" would be "visiting an article in a web browser's default state"! Shame we have to resort to this.


Disabling javascript (via the dev console) and reloading the page did the trick for me.




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