They didn't say it was unsolicited or unwanted. They just said if they could not unsubscribe in one or two clicks they'd mark it as spam, regardless if it was spam.
By clicking 'unsubscribe', the implied intent is that the email is unwanted. So I can either mark an email as 'unwanted' by clicking 'unsubscribe' or by clicking 'report spam'. I'll always give the sender the benefit of the doubt and try to unsubscribe, but if any action is required on my part other than clicking the link, I take the path of least resistance and simply click 'report spam'. Either way, I'll stop getting those emails.
Doesn't the fact that they immediately want to unsubscribe make it quite obvious that the email is unsolicited?
I have been getting spam from companies who obviously got my email address from someone who sold it to them, for quite a while now. Even though their messages have clear unsubscribe links, list real mailing addresses, and use reputable email marketing companies, that doesn't make it any less spammy.
> They just said if they could not unsubscribe in one or two clicks they'd mark it as spam, regardless if it was spam.
While I'm not limiting spam to this definition, spam is any email that cannot be unsubscribed to in one or two reasonable clicks. If I discover email I was getting is spam, I will mark it as spam.
That argument is pedantic and does not contribute positively to the discussion. Do you believe that the person talking about unsubscribe really means email from his mother-in-law?
Let's use our common sense, shall we? Do you think he marks as spam emails from his coworkers because they don't include unsubscribe links thar onl require one click?
If you don't think he meant that, let's not discuss it regardless of how one might twist his words out of context.
The person specifically said "any email that does not have a one-click unsubscribe". Two of the three categories I mentioned were not "emails from gramma" but that's the example you choose to focus on?
I really do think he means that he marks as spam messages that are not spam. And the biggest problem with spam prevention is the false marking as spam. It's much worse to miss a legit email than to receive spam.
> I really do think he means that he marks as spam messages that are not spam.
You honestly think I mark as spam receipts, emails I ask for, and email from friends? Did I really need to put the disclaimer in? I thought "While I'm not limiting spam to this definition," was enough.
Here, I'll help you.
Just to be clear, I also don't mark as spam email from my half-sisters, half-brothers, brother, sisters-in-law, brother-in-law, mother-in-law, father-in-law, step-mother, step-father, and my wife. Oh wait, forgot to mention all my cousins, and the rest of the family! Clearly, I must mark them as spam.
Because, no matter whether or not it's technically spam, people will stop sending such messages if they get "marked as spam" often enough. Either that, or GMail will start silently dropping their mail - either way, my inbox is clean. Making such a policy public can only help.
[Note that I don't mark such e-mail as spam, if only because there's no convenient way to do so over IMAP.]
I feel like the only reasonable response, then, is to start madking all email sent from people who believe this as spam, so they can get a sense of what this feels like.
Seriously, though: people who abuse the system like that,--whether they are giving products bad ratings for reasons unrelated to the product, using the PayPal dispute system as a threat (or seriously on everything they purchase from everyone online as it let's them get stuff for free), or downvoting comments on HN out of retaliation for a lost argument--need some kind of meta-moderation to keep their data from affecting the system.
I don't think that I was boasting. However, if it being seen as boasting leads to more companies allowing one-click unsubscribes, then I see it as a good thing.
I generally don't just mark messages as spam because I don't want them in my inbox - that's what archiving mail is for (things which I don't need to see but might want to look at in the future). Spam is for when I don't want to receive messages and I can't find a way to get myself taken off of the mailing list after reading through one of the messages.
I also mark any mail where unsubscribe is more difficult than a couple of clicks as spam, though I don't have the instant hate for "webinar" mails that you do (I've never even noticed that as a thing, so I have no opinion one way or another).
This reply is pretty much a public +1 (I also upvoted the post). If points were visible I wouldn't have bothered with the reply and would have just gone with the upvote, but I'm trying to make sure any email marketing folks out there who may be reading this realize you aren't the only one who does this and they are ultimately hurting themselves by making it more difficult to unsubscribe than it needs to be.
Fine if you arrange one but spam emails suggesting you might want to join one are the penis enlargement of business, I get a lot of them for stuff I have no interest in buying.
Opting out of something you asked to receive is the courteous thing to do. If your interests have changed and what you signed up for is no longer relevant to you, it's the best thing all around. The company doesn't have to keep trying to send you emails that you don't want which might be getting rejected by your mail server using cryptic messages (for example, major ISPs use some variant of a 4NN response such as Yahoo's 451 message deferred) making your mail server waste resources rejecting messages you don't want. The sending mail server also keeps retrying until it either gives up as undeliverable or until it eventually gets into your mailbox. If it makes it to your inbox then you waste your time marking it as spam again. Or maybe it goes into your spam folder where you waste your time reviewing the messages to ensure there were no false positives. It also penalizes other users who actually do want to receive the email since that email has a higher likelihood of getting delayed or undelivered because of your actions.
By all means mark as spam stuff you didn't opt in to receive. But marking stuff you did opt in to receive is the digital equivalent of hanging up on your best friend when he calls to see if you'd like to go for your usual weekly coffee. He keeps calling back thinking there was a phone problem and you keep hanging up on him. Wouldn't it be better if you just said "Hey dude, I know we agreed to go for coffee every Monday but I actually stopped drinking coffee a few weeks ago."
"Or maybe it goes into your spam folder where you waste your time reviewing the messages to ensure there were no false positives. It also penalizes other users who actually do want to receive the email since that email has a higher likelihood of getting delayed or undelivered because of your actions."
I don't check my spam folder, if it's really important and by some fluke chance their email gets marked as spam, they can call me, my number is just as readily available as my email address to those who need to know it. I use Gmail, and haven't had to check my spam folder in years.
Further, I'd argue it's the company sending the emails who is penalizing the legitimate users by not providing an unsubscribe link (or equivalent) in the email. My process is simple: if I receive a newsletter that was opted in to that I don't want to receive anymore I look for an unsubscribe link and if I can't find one I email the admin explaining why I think they should have one and requesting that they remove me manually (intended to be a penalty for not providing a sufficiently automated mechanism). If the emails persist, I will mark them as spam and if I'm feeling particularly resentful, I'll set up a filter to forward them all back at the admin.
If they're providing an easy way to opt out, marking it as spam is overkill. However, having to login in order to opt out is inappropriate and potentially illegal.
"...marking stuff [as spam that] you did opt in to receive is the digital equivalent of hanging up on your best friend when he calls to see if you'd like to go for your usual weekly coffee."
I call shenanigans.
Bad analogy, a better one would go like this;
Your friend calls you asking if you want to go out for coffee, and you say no. 5 minutes later, he calls back asking again if you want to go out for coffee, and you say 'no, stop calling me'. Again 5 minutes later he calls you back, so you block his number.
You've tried to tell them you don't want them to contact you anymore, yet they persist. That my friend is spam, and I will mark it appropriately.
Marking emails as spam willy-nilly can hurt legit companies. I generally only do it if I didn't opt-in, or if they don't provide a one-click unsubscribe or ignore the unsubscribe request. It's good karma to not be a dick.
Part of the definition of spam is that it's unsolicited, in the sense of spam filtering. The more casual and loose definition includes anything unwanted and that's fine but we shouldn't extend that definition to spam filtering. If you signed up for it then unsubscribe if you don't want it.
"If you signed up for it then unsubscribe if you don't want it."
In virtually all cases where this occurs I have signed up for the mailing implicitly (by buying something from a company and thus establishing a 'relationship') or accidentally (didn't notice they had conveniently pre-checked a 'spam me please' option in an installer or on a website).
And FWIW even for mails I don't want, I do try their unsubscribe link first and use that if it is just a few clicks to get me off the list. If their unsubscribe method is unreasonably complex (any more than two clicks is unreasonably complex, removing me from their database should be just as simple as adding me was), yes, I'll mark them as spam, and I believe they fully deserve it.
> I’m not sure how this works but I use Mail’s filter for my aggressive filtering and I also use Gmail’s filter for general purpose pre-filtering. It seems to me like I’m free to do whatever I want with my own filter, but maybe I’m marking mail also for Google as spam if I move it to the respective folder? I wouldn’t want to do that.
Oh, in Mail it might be different if Apple doesn't use that data to train it's default filter. Which seems unlikely.
I guess I don't know if Google does, I just assume they do because they're data junkies.
A simple solution I think would be to change the "Spam" button to instead read "I didn't sign up for this". That would be much less open to interpretation based on the user's own personl definition of "spam".
It is an abuse of a system designed to stop unsolicited email. You're basically ruining that system every time you do that. Someone who wants to get that email may now miss out on it. If you signed up for it, unsubscribe from it. Hitting spam is very selfish.
I think the problem here is one of scope. Your definition of spam is much wider, encompassing the world at large -- some of whom may want said email. My definition of spam is much narrower, I'm concerned only with what I do and do not want.
If I subscribe to a newsletter, that's not spam. If I try to unsubscribe and can do so with one click or with one click and entering my email address, that's not spam. If I try to unsubscribe and am forced to login (which is illegal in the states, need I remind you) or cannot figure out how to unsubscribe, I categorize that as spam. It is not wanted by me.
Even if it is a newsletter, if you don't let me unsubscribe, that's still spam. You don't get to avoid being labeled as spam just because at some point in the distant past I subscribed and now can't unsubscribe.
Call it selfish if you like, but who else is going to look out for my inbox? Certainly not the groups sending the emails, that's for sure.
Yes, but remember you benefit from combined spam filter heuristics based on the aggregate of all user's marking email as spam. So if you falsely mark legitimate email as spam you're pissing in the well for everyone else.
BONUS: if anywhere in the email they mention the word "webinar", they're gone.