It's worth noting for anyone that advocates this sort of diet that it is a luxury. Many people mention that you can make good food on such a diet, but it is doubtless time-consuming. What of those who work by the hour? And the ingredients are expensive. Many of the fancy foods on here come from Whole Foods, not HEB. Even if they become affordable, the time aspect is still important; most don't want to spend 2 hours cooking regularly.
Honest question for those who follow such a diet: how do you not feel hungry? If I don't have meat, I tend to stay hungry. I regularly eat lots of meat for this reason, and am still very slim (no health issues), so it's not like it's hurting me. I tried not eating meat for a month or so, and I perform measurably worse (comparing my output on days when I ate meat vs not). Maybe it just doesn't work for everyone?
Meat is very calorie dense due to the fat content -- if you don't eat it, you need to substitute a plant food that is also relatively calorie dense (like beans, lentils, or potatoes) but also, probably just eat more of it. I found that I needed to eat more when I became a vegan, and even more now that I'm trying to put on muscle mass.
Also, beans are a good substitute because they tend to dampen blood sugar swings, due to the way they feed our gut flora. And a sudden drop in blood sugar is a big reason for feeling hungry. This property of beans is known as the "second meal effect".
Note that just because you are slim and not having health issues, does not mean that meat is not gradually harming your health. There is rather overwhelming evidence that the cholesterol and saturated fat in meat is harmful to our circulatory health, and also that meat protein intake is linked to cancer growth by triggering the body to create IGF-1 (Insulin-like Growth Gactor 1).
Many people feel like (or are told) that they are craving protein, when in reality what they are craving is just more calories. Consider that most of us have had a lifetime to figure out what works for us with a meat-based diet, and were taught by our parents -- switching to a different diet isn't trivial. There are lots of good resources out there, but unfortunately, also lots of misinformation.
> you need to substitute a plant food that is also relatively calorie dense (like beans, lentils, or potatoes)
I tried this; not much help. I was used to a diet of essentially no carbs (and had found it beneficial for me), and actually switched because I had a friend who would not shut up about not eating meat and wouldn't stop until I did. I can indeed eat more, but occasionally I would get full and still not feel "full".
> meat is harmful to our circulatory health
I'm not so sure about this one. I've read about the adverse effects of IGF-1 with respect to cancer, but that seems to be more because it is a growth hormone. Is it any wonder a growth hormone can cause caner to grow? IGF-1, by keeping new cells forming, could help mitigate things like lower bone density and lower muscle tone with age.
I've tried replacing protein-calories with carb-calories. I gained a good amount of weight doing so, and didn't feel nearly as good. I'm much happier and healthier back on my old diet. Lots of meat (mostly white)/eggs/fish, a good amount of veggies, some fruit, lots of nuts, lots of dairy. Almost no sugar/soda/fried stuff/other such junk.
Maybe different people do best on different diets, and we should recognize that what's good for one is not always good for another. What irritates me is when people get sanctimonious about it and say that I'm evil if I don't eat their diet, even when my quality of life, health, and productivity is significantly better doing it my way.
> I tried this; not much help. I was used to a diet of essentially no carbs (and had found it beneficial for me), and actually switched because I had a friend who would not shut up about not eating meat and wouldn't stop until I did. I can indeed eat more, but occasionally I would get full and still not feel "full".
The question I ask when people bring this up is always: what type of carbs? Generally you know you're eating junk carbs when the ratio of carbohydrates to fiber is greater than 5 to 1 [0]. Processed carbs will help you pack on the weight fast, especially since most processed carbs are all coming from non-whole grains.
A lot of my friends/colleagues like to claim they're on a low/no carb diet. When posed with the question of how they get fiber or critical vitamins/nutrients they're failing to understand that all plants have carbs. A cup of kale has 6 grams in fact. The better approach should be to look at what type of carbs you're consuming vs eating less of all of them. The SAD consumer is often getting very little dietary fiber, unfortunately and even more so now with a lot of the misinformation about how carbs are blanket bad.
When I say carbs, I mostly mean grains, potatoes. I know most everything contains at least some, but it's a bit of a colloquialism and hard to avoid. Some occasional beans, oats, etc. I tried eating more of these as part of a diet, and beans were somewhat of a help, but I still didn't feel the same.
> A cup of kale has 6 grams
I hate kale. Everyone pushes it as a superfood, but the texture is disgusting. Also, a recent report showed it had tons of pesticides. I can't help wondering if people eat it out of the same mentality that makes us think medicine should taste bad.
> dietary fiber
I think I put this above, but I ate beans, nuts, some oats, and fruits and veggies. I just had a lot of meat as well (as in, half to three-fifths of my plate). I wasn't on the typical Western-pattern diet by any means.
I honestly believe a plant-based diet just doens't work for everyone. And I will continue eating what works best for me, though I'm always open to trying something that could be better (the entire reason I tried plant-based in the first place).
And we're back to the time issue. Also, I'm not sure I should have to do that much to food (destroy the internal structure, cook it, and cover it up) just to make it palatable.
Hmm, ok. First off, let me say that I won't judge you at all for eating meat. I'm not an ethical vegan -- my reasons are about 90% for health, and 10% for environmental concerns. It's weird, but it's only after becoming vegan that I've started to care a bit more about animal welfare -- prior to that it was like "I'm not totally comfortable with the fact that animals have to die to provide me with meat, but it's very tasty, and I'm good at compartmentalizing". It would be very hypocritical of me to criticize anyone else for this reason.
I should also note, that I follow a whole-food, plant based diet, which is both stricter than a typical vegan diet in some ways, and less strict in others. I don't obsess so much if I have a bit of honey, or if my food has touched some meat, or anything like that. But I try pretty hard to stick to "whole foods", which rules out "vegan junk food", and in fact most processed foods, which have added oil, salt, and sugar, and have fiber and valuable phytonutrients stripped out. The fact that I don't eat anything with processed oil means that it's really quite hard for me to eat so much that I gain fat. I believe the term "nutritarian" is another way to describe this diet. (But of course, I cheat once in a while).
I sort of agree with you about people doing best on different diets, but in a more limited sense than you mean, I think. For sure, nuts and avocados have a lot of research showing their health benefits -- but I don't eat them, because every time I do I feel like crap for the next day or so (which is SUPER annoying, because I fucking love avocado). Whole wheat is healthy, unless you have Crohn's disease.
I think that some people who feel better without carbs might feel better because they eliminated a particular chemical that comes along with certain types of carbs, without realizing what the exact culprit was. Someone who suffers from a dairy intolerance and drinks milk every day, might actually feel better after switching to an all-beef diet, even though they cut out tons of healthy foods!
But overall, I think that the general shape of the healthiest human diet is virtually all plant foods, with most calories from carbohydrates rather than animal protein and fats. In exceptional cases like childhood epilepsy, ketogenic diets can be valuable, but there is a long list of undesirable side effects -- it's just that it's better than the alternative. And the Standard American Diet is so bad that pretty much any deviation from it is an improvement.
I don't want to try to convince you that you should stop eating meat because I want to prove that I'm right, or something... It's more that I wish that everyone can be happy and healthy, and I based on what I've learned in the past few years of geeking out on nutrition research, I suspect that though you feel better on a high-animal-protein diet, it might be causing you (and most other people) long-term harm. And that there might be a diet that works for you both in terms of long-term health and also just plain feeling good.
But I understand that it's really hard to try to eat something that you expect to make you feel unwell. I 100% understand if you are happy enough with this diet not to want to make any more changes.
I guess, just, maybe if down the line you find that you're suffering from high blood pressure, or heart disease, or pre-diabetes, or just start feeling unwell, you might remember our conversation and consider giving a plant-based diet another try. Maybe at first just by swapping in some beans in the place of meat, fish, or eggs (they're not terribly high-carb), and gradually trying out other foods.
By the way, if you don't eat a particular food and then suddenly start eating it, it can take a while for your gut bacteria to adjust. Different types of foods require completely different bacteria to digest them, and the lack of the right type of bacteria can cause the food to just ferment in your intestines, which feels pretty bad and leads to smelly farts. It's best to make dietary changes slowly.
Also, it's possible to eat a low-carb vegan diet, with most of the calories coming from plant-based oils. It takes some planning though.
And the fact that you eat vegetables, fruit, nuts, and avoid trans fats and other junk food is a step up from the standard american diet, for sure.
Oh, and finally: IGF-1 is a growth hormone, you're correct. The reason it leads to cancer is that when you get more of it than your body naturally produces, by eating meat, it stimulates the production of new blood vessels. Tumors need a lot more nutrients than normal tissue to support their growth rate, and IGF-1 gives them that -- without it, they have a much harder time.
We are actually getting little cancers all the time, but our body is quite good at killing them, if avoid foods that help the cancer and eat lots of foods that with anti-cancer chemicals (cruciferous vegetables, for example). If our immune system couldn't fight most of the little cancers, we'd be in some pretty serious trouble.
Anyway, I wish you the best of health and happiness! Thank you for your honest and thoughtful discussion.
When you say meats, do you mean all meats? I am genuinely asking. My diet is more based on poultry than red meats. I've always heard red meat is not good for you in long term. So, I wonder if these effects that you mentioned are more pronounced with a certain kind of meat. Seems like you've done a lot of research and I am curious.
> It's worth noting for anyone that advocates this sort of diet that it is a luxury.
Utter nonsense. A commonly perpetuated myth. Foods like lentils have the best cost-nutrition ratios of any food. What do you think the people around the world living on $1 a day are eating?
> doubtless time-consuming. What of those who work by the hour? ...most don't want to spend 2 hours cooking regularly.
I follow a plant based diet, although I eat only a small subset of the foods on the list I think I can answer some of your questions.
> how do you not feel hungry?
Lots of starch. Carbs and eating more volume vs. when I ate meat is what fills me up. It's a bit of an adjustment but you get used to it. After doing this for three years I don't feel a need to eat meat/cheese/eggs etc.
> What of those who work by the hour? most don't want to spend 2 hours cooking regularly.
Being plant based really limits your eating out options and options for convenient processed foods. Granted cooking your own food takes significant time. I work full time and I'm taking masters classes. I make it work because eating healthful meals is important to me. I find efficiencies in batch processing. I cook my whole weeks worth of food in a few hours on the weekend. I'm faster than I was when I started, probably because I have built up muscle memory and also because I select foods that I know I can make quickly.
> Maybe it just doesn't work for everyone?
One of my friends wants to go plant based, but she has a small stomach. So eating more volume is a problem for her. Different people are going to experience plant based diets differently. For me the first month was the hardest to transition because I was so used to the SAD diet before. For me the second month was easier.
Edit: found it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAD tells me it's a "standard american diet", which I take to mean big portions of mainly burgers, fries, and sugary drinks.
Beans and grains are generally pretty cheap and available pretty widely. You can make a lot at a time, and stick it in a tupperware container to later combine/season. Eating beans/grains can also be quite filling.
I personally grow tired of eating such things after a while, but I don't think they are expensive/time-consuming and they do satisfy hunger.
> I personally grow tired of eating such things after a while, but I don't think they are expensive/time-consuming and they do satisfy hunger.
"Satisfy hunger" does sound pretty basic though, doesn't it? I don't think the idea was "you can survive for a long time on this", but rather "this is tasty, ethical and nutritious, go try it".
I recently tried to go full vegan for a month and found it surprisingly easy. You can make a lot of variations of beans/lentils and rice (with various other veggies and spicing) that are cheaper than meat-based meals, taste amazing, contain plenty of protein and can keep for days. Doesn't have to take more than 30 minutes to put together such a meal.
Noodles and fried tofu takes no longer to cook than a steak, and is just as good. A big pot of curried lentils can be set up in ten minutes, let simmer for about an hour, and lasts all week. Tacos with refried beans instead of hamburger is a straightforward substitute. The list goes on. (Nor am I sure that any of those are significantly less caloric than the equivalent meat dishes.)
I suspect that most people who think they can’t manage a vegetarianism, by experience or otherwise, are making the mistake of thinking that a “vegetarian diet” consists of just the vegetarian side-dishes familiar from a meat-eating diet. That is not true, and if you try to do it that way, of course it’s not going to work. A proper diet finds foods that fill the role of meat, one way or another.
Certainly, I concur- the tofu is definitely better. :)
Sadly, we live in a world where everyone knows how to skillfully prepare beef, but no one knows how to do the same thing with tofu. I think that accounts for the difference. (Useful experiment: try a piece of raw beef, and then a piece of raw tofu. They’re both equally bad!)
After switching to a plant-based diet for health reasons at first, I started looking for alternatives to meat/dairy and found a wealth of tasty recipes - the vegan community is quite inventive, maybe due to the constraints.
One of my new favorites is homemade seitan, it is easy to prepare in a food processor and can be stored for a long time. Getting the texture right took some try and error, now I prefer this method (sparkling water) for a nice texture: https://www.elephantasticvegan.com/vegan-seitan-steak/#wprm-...
Other vegan "hacks" I found impressive were DIY vegan cultured camenbert (camenbert mould growing on cashew puree), aquafaba mousse au chocolat, asian stir fry with TVP or mock duck, jackfruit...
A lot of reverse engineering traditional recipes and reinventing them, perhaps the most innovative culinary movement at the momemt.
If you eat tons of starch you won't be hungry. I eat whole-wheat pasta, potatoes, rice, beans, peas, lentils, corn till failure at every meal and I am in great health.
Also this is hardly a "luxury" diet -- some of the poorest people on earth eat diets based around starches.
"It's worth noting for anyone that advocates this sort of diet that it is a luxury."
In what way is this diet a luxury? Some of the ingredients are not found in supermarkets and so not easily available. But beans, lentils, mushrooms, fruits are readily available at your local supermarket if you live Europe or the US.
Want to know what is a luxury? The world's consumption of meat, especially in Europe and US. I'm a meat eater, but we are eating more meat now that in any other time in history. We think such cheap and plentiful meat (on a daily basis for so many people) is how it's always been, but it's only thanks to industrial-scale farming we can eat meat so cheaply and with such abundance. And what a bunch of hypocrites we are on the subject (myself included). So many of us won't even consider reducing our meat consumption despite the proven role of animal agriculture in contributing to climate change.
I've been on Huel for a few months and find it keeps me full very well. Rice & pea protein with plenty of fiber. I still love good meat, but if I wanted to make sure I stayed full for hours at a time, it would no longer be my first choice.
> Many of the fancy foods on here come from Whole Foods
.. did we read the same list? Do you think lentils are "fancy"? Spinach? Mushrooms? Them starting with algae is probably a weird move, but regionally they are very available.
> how do you not feel hungry? If I don't have meat, I tend to stay hungry.
You need to think more critically, you probably crave meat because you have it almost every meal. Entire subcontinents and religions avoiding all meat products for millenia probably didn't all just "feel hungry and perform bad".
Just like like it's easy enough for someone to start eating meat, it's just as easy for you to stop.
> Honest question for those who follow such a diet: how do you not feel hungry? If I don't have meat, I tend to stay hungry.
It's a matter of making sure you eat enough. I've noticed when playing around with a mostly, but not entirely, vegetarian diet that there's no magic at all if you're already in the habit of counting calories.
I've known some people for whom it's more of a problem, for a few reasons. For starters, an athletic person who likes a steady three meals a day might have some problems and need to change some habits, but a snacker who is trying to lose weight might thrive with the change.
That's probably part of the issue; I fall more into the athletic 3-meal-a-day category, and I really just don't do well otherwise. I never counted calories, before or after, but gained a good bit of weight in a month when I tried a plant-based diet. I was used to eating very few carbs, and didn't do well having more. I basically tried eating enough to feel "satiated" (I actually got physically full on salad once or twice while still rather hungry and not satiated), and ended up doing much worse in terms of productivity, feeling, and weight on the plant diet.
Maybe not luxury, but I can correlate. Most of these things don't even have translations in my language, and I'm not even sure where to buy them, although I would gladly. It's probably the same situation as with neighbouring countries to mine, in landlocked Europe.
I am also trying to go without meat for a couple of months now and I too feel hungry more often than before. I didn't notice any affect on my performance though. So I wonder if that feeling of hunger is real or is it just some adjustment taking place and one gets used to it eventually. My main motivation though is not health but rather the fact that meat production is a massive contributor to climate change.
> It's worth noting for anyone that advocates this sort of diet that it is a luxury. Many people mention that you can make good food on such a diet, but it is doubtless time-consuming. What of those who work by the hour? And the ingredients are expensive.
I will disagree with this statement from personal experience. The first claim is that this is a "luxury diet", of which it is not. Grains, legumes, and most all leafy greens and vegetables on here fall within the same construct as meat pricing. Yes, you can spend a lot of money, but no it is not a requirement. I have tested not eating red or white meats now for ~16 months and consume fish or crustaceans on average once a week, but sometimes not. Over that time my weekly food cost has gone down on average. Yes, herbs and spices can be expensive however they are not exclusive to a more focused plant or whole food diet. Also, the claim about time-consuming is also false. I used to spend more time in meat than almost any dish I prepare now. From overnight smokes of pulled pork or half day cooks of meats in sous vide with a finish on grill was, by far much more work. Now, I understand those are not always normal cooking practice by everyone but normal meat prep involves proper prep and post prep regardless if you're making hamburgers or not. Maybe you're talking about preprocessed meats with your argument. But if you're arguing a preprocessed burger is easier, then I'm sure you're right. Frozen meat is horrible IMO, however.
> Honest question for those who follow such a diet: how do you not feel hungry? If I don't have meat, I tend to stay hungry. I regularly eat lots of meat for this reason, and am still very slim (no health issues), so it's not like it's hurting me. I tried not eating meat for a month or so, and I perform measurably worse (comparing my output on days when I ate meat vs not). Maybe it just doesn't work for everyone?
Moving to a plant / whole food focused diet doesn't leave you hungry if you're doing it in a complete way. Legumes are a great component and satiate just as well from a density of food standpoint. Our family has made breakfast burritos recently for friends who didn't know it was 100% plant based. This included the use of Just Egg (bean formulation of scrambled eggs) and an Italian Seitan product that is hard to distinguish in flavor and texture from ground breakfast sausage. The prep for this meal is identical to using those traditional ingredients. Nobody was hungry and everyone was impressed and asked for the recipe.
Ultimately it doesn't work if you don't give it a real try. My family and I cook a lot and the hardest part was getting out of the rut of the recipes we've made our own over the years. New ingredients, new recipes, new flavors. Not everything is good, not everything turns out. You learn and pivot. 3 months in I was feeling comfortable with the new direction I took. My family still will consume red and white meat when there's no other good choice. I have decided, for me, the ethical and global implications are a personal choice and continue to avoid it. Even though I don't cast judgement I feel as though more people should give it a fair shake. But it's easy to take the well traveled option. I will say though it's gotten easier only a year later to find options where I couldn't last year. They're not all the most healthy, but cater to more of the flavor pallette than health. There is that gray area of healthy plant based eating and the middle ground of Beyond Meat / Impossible Burger type alternatives. But even those still have a positive impact on things overall.
It does sound like in your attempt to go meat free you were missing something in your meals to round out comparative calorie intake. My recommendation is the cookbook: Vegan For Everyone by America's Test Kitchen. There are a lot of fantastic recipes in there but it is one of the best to get you going. There are many other cookbooks that have helped me find new avenues of cooking as well. I think, for me, that guidance and ideas are the reason I still continue down the path I'm on today.
> I used to spend more time in meat than almost any dish I prepare now. From overnight smokes of pulled pork or half day cooks of meats in sous vide with a finish on grill was, by far much more work.
Most people don't do this, and I certainly don't. Most people don't have the time to do it with meat either. I just roast chickens from costco or some turkey. Fish I don't do as often, because it's slow.
> I don't cast judgement
This sets you apart from many others, and I appreciate it. In an above reply, I detailed a little more how the whole plant-based thing didn't work for me, even with a sincere effort. I think not everybody does best on the same diet, and appreciate someone not trying to exalt the diet that works for them as the only one that is morally right.
> Beyond Meat / Impossible Burger type alternatives
Yuck. These are worse than the veggie option. I've tried the impossible burger once; never again. I think it was the smell that was wrong, but am not quite sure. It's the uncanny valley of meat, and I don't like it.
> Vegan for everyone by America's Test Kitchen
I appreciate the recommendation, but am not sure I would try again. I don't have any moral issues whatsoever with eating meat, and was doing it more because I had been so badgered about people who said it was better for them. I gave it a shot, and it didn't really work for me, but I'm glad to here it does for some.
> Yuck. These are worse than the veggie option. I've tried the impossible burger once; never again. I think it was the smell that was wrong, but am not quite sure. It's the uncanny valley of meat, and I don't like it.
While I don't consume the alternatives all the time I don't find them repulsive either. Both Impossible and Beyond Meat have a compelling product in my personal opinion having eaten meat and been somewhat of a "picky" burger consumer. Then again we all have different pallettes.
I'm curious of what your opinion of the Impossible Whopper at Burger King would be. Back in my younger days I enjoyed a Whopper from time to time and am excited to see how close it comes. Seems to be a rather large investment in fast food these days to validate this path as consumers look for the "healthier" alternatives.
I mean, I don't see a reason why not. I tend to start with an assumption that it's fine until I find something contrary. I'm not sure I'd eat it, and I still think the burger bun, fries, soda/milkshake/chocolate milk, etc. are much worse for you than any burger, but there's rarely a problem with expanding consumer choice and product availability.
Honest question for those who follow such a diet: how do you not feel hungry? If I don't have meat, I tend to stay hungry. I regularly eat lots of meat for this reason, and am still very slim (no health issues), so it's not like it's hurting me. I tried not eating meat for a month or so, and I perform measurably worse (comparing my output on days when I ate meat vs not). Maybe it just doesn't work for everyone?