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Microsoft to shut London Skype office putting 220 jobs at risk (bbc.com)
194 points by mpweiher on Sept 20, 2016 | hide | past | favorite | 198 comments



Yea, the UI blows but one of the biggest concerns with Skype is that it is a leaky box. I know a lot of friends who have left skype because of government tapping. By tapping, I mean multiple governments all over the world seem to have unfettered access to every call and chat on the system.

When you are using the tool for business, that is a deal breaker.


What makes you think comparable services are not equally compliant with intercept regulations?


E2E encryption. So whatsapp and FaceTime.


Say WhatsApp receives a request from some government saying they need the data. Period. WhatsApp complies by setting some flag on your account and now your client isn't doing proper E2E encryption anymore and it's all up to be intercepted. And when someone not on an intercept list goes to audit the network traffic, it all looks fine. Infinite possibilities here.

What makes people trust the advertised E2E encryption is really happening when they most need? Faith in these companies?


Peer review. And it's a moving target, skype used to be the recommended one back in the day, when it was decentralized. Right now openwhisper based systems are one of the better ones we have (so whatsapp and signal) that are sanely accessible with decent features.


Do you actually know the peers doing the review, or are you conducting the review yourself?


In principle, yes; in practice, most users are completely unable to assess whether the E2EE is effective in any way. How can you review the implementation does what the vendor says it does?


Did whatsapp make their e2e protocol open source ?


And even if they did, how do we now when they make you use the open source version of protocol and when they switch to a government-mandated (or cracker-pwned) protocol version for selected customers?


Indeed you would need to be able to have an open source client and be able to run your own server


And even there, to be absolutely sure, you'd have to have a well-sanitized environment (say, start from ensuring that when you build your application from sources, you know all the source code, and you know your compilers and libraries aren't pwned, and you know your hardware wasn't hacked by e.g. some BIOS-resident vulnerabilities.)

It's pretty depressing, actually. A determined adversary with intelligence-service level resources can get a lot done. Your main hope is to be such an insignificant target that they don't want to waste resources, e.g. expose 0-day vulnerabilities etc to get just you.


What alternatives do you suggest for business?


Cisco Spark: www.ciscospark.com

It provides end to end encryption with customer owned keys.

High level data on the security model: https://www.ciscospark.com/content/dam/ciscospark/eopi/count...

Draft of the KMS technology behind it: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abiggs-saag-key-management...


I think Snowden revelations showed Cisco in bed with the NSA, I wouldn't trust them if government surveillance is a concern.

There are many open source for teleconference these days, e.g. https://jitsi.org/ - I recall a few appearing on HN as well.


From my time in Cisco, they take security VERY seriously. There was the story about Cisco devices being intercepted by the NSA in-transit to high-profile targets[0]. This was really bad press, especially since a lot of people assume that Cisco was complacent in the practice (there was no evidence as such, this was very likely the NSA intercepting the package in-route to the target). Many hardware companies (Cisco included) are trying to do verified-boot approaches where they can detect if the firmware or hardware is not genuine, there-by defeating these package intercept cases.

If you are a high-profile target, no matter what vendor or software you use, Five Eyes will do whatever is needed to infiltrate your network. Cisco is a large target just due to their volumes compared to most other solutions (you are more likely to see news of Cisco attacked due to volume of sales). But with that, Cisco will also dedicate resources to trying to defeat this type of attack.

[0] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa-...


Is this true: "The NSA has been sitting on a zero day exploit to remotely grab VPN keys from Cisco firewalls for FOURTEEN years." [0]

0. https://twitter.com/musalbas/status/777834235273027584


There is a separate thread here on HN about this[0], though most of the discussion is around the original editorialized title for the article.

If you read the "Exploitation and Public Announcements" section of the Cisco publication, it meantions the source was another CVE from a month ago[1].

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12540692

[1] http://blogs.cisco.com/security/shadow-brokers


One of the points of the E2E security model used here is so that you don't have to trust Cisco.


There's a distinction between trusting a company not to look at your data when you hand it to them in plaintext, (Skype) and trusting them to have completely flawless, bugfree code that the NSA hasn't backdoored. (Dual_EC_DRBG)


Only if the enryption is done properly. Is that an open source project? Did someone you trust security review this?


You still have to trust that the encryption is indeed E2E as they claim, no?

I mean, whatsapp claims it has E2E encryption, but I've never checked...


https://whispersystems.org/blog/whatsapp-complete/

I'm not sure what parts you can verify, but I'm willing to trust the word of those at Whisper. Perhaps I'm naive but they seem to genuinely care about improving privacy for others.


This comment also shows that privacy is always based on trust. Trusting Cisco, Google, Microsoft, OpenSSL devs, Whisper Systems, whatever. You can decide who's more sympathetic, moxie, Zuckerberg, Nadella..


That was exactly the point I was trying to make when I responded to someone saying "well, with E2E encryption you don't have to trust them". Yes you do.


You still have to use the software you're running, and sounds like you are running Cisco's software.


They don't seem to think pricing is a relevant information (or something that should apply to everyone the same).


Wire, maybe. I haven't used it much, but it's supposed to be end-to-end encrypted and supports audio/video/text. No phone requirement either. Still a centralized service, though, so they get access to metadata.


I've been enjoying it quite a bit. I've been successful in getting a good number of my friends over to it; mainly in part due to it's attractive UI and good media support. YouTube and Spotify links preview well in Wire, and there's good gif support. Video calls were excellent quality.


Disclaimer: I worked for this company.

StarLeaf (https://www.starleaf.com/) is a great alternative for businesses.


https://switch.co works pretty well


It says nothing about encryption, so I assume it's not encrypted.


Looks like they changed their name, but heres their doc on encryption: https://storage.googleapis.com/switch_static/Cloud_Security_...



There is Skype for Business :)


If I'm not mistaken, it's a completely different product with the same name. It was lync for a long time, and they just basically changed the name but kept all the innards intact. I'm fairly sure it's on prem.


Yup, completely different products. Skype for Business is pretty much just a rebranding of Lync 2013 - for the longest time, the Skype for Business client was still calling itself Lync 2013 on it's about page. It's been pretty confusing, to be honest, since the two different Skypes are completely different products, talking different protocols that just barely communicate with each other.

Skype through Office 365 is also Skype for Business/Lync.


And before Lync, it was called Office Communicator.


It's an old, old, product. Before that it was Live Communications Server.


Anybody knows if it has something in common with the Ye Olde MSN Messenger?

First time I saw it I couldn't help to notice the similarities. Even the emoticons were the same!


They aren't related as products, despite being developed now by the same company.

There was an integration you could get (purchase, I think?) which allowed Lync to connect to the MSN network and chat to users of MSN.


With the Lync => Skype for Business rebranding, some of the original MSN-emoticons that used to work in Lync / Office Communicator have been removed. :-(


There's a hosted offering as part of the O365 suite.


Slack? Might not fully replace Skype as I don't think there is screen sharing. But for calls and chat, Slack does an outstanding job. Plus all the possible integrations with their API etc.


How does slack fix the concerns addressed above? Isn't it a closed-source app that routes everything through it's own servers?


Slack has screen sharing through Screenhero


Is that any good? It seems to be quite weirdly not-integrated. (Separate accounts, apps and contact lists...)


It's not integrated, but it's fantastic. Have used it extensively for code pairing sessions, undetectable latency on the screen and crystal clear audio.


it is somewhat integrated, namely you can do `/hero @handle` and it will work. But SH doesn't work on linux, and it slows to a crawl when sharing with more than one person.

Still the best thing available if it works for your case.


Suggest Zoom if you need to share a screen to more than one person. I don't have a solution for Linux users.


There is a Zoom.us client for Linux.

Also appear.in works on Linux.


TIL on both counts! Thank you for educating me!


'When you are using the tool for business, that is a deal breaker.' People say stuff like this all the time, implying that their business transactions are completely sacrosanct. At some point bog standard enterprise tech is going to be leaky someplace. I can't imagine the government would give a shot about my companies work. But then again I'm not the average paranoid HNer when it comes to this


You don't know what the government cares about and what it doesn't. Over the last decade, many people used enterprise systems and hardware only to find out they weren't secure and the mundane information that traversed those systems were valuable to the government...and that they were compromised. [1]

You just don't know whose tapped the line, whose listening, and what systems your text is being indexed into. So reliable E2E is key.

[1] https://theintercept.com/2014/12/13/belgacom-hack-gchq-insid...


If they want to listen to you they will listen to you, although you may make it more expensive for them to do so.

Unless you're using physical couriers and airgapped networks with TEMPEST protection. I say this unironically; these are facts people tend to brush away.


Agreed, my logic is entirely the opposite. This would be a dealbreaker in my personal life, but why would I care what the gov't knows about my work life? Of course, I don't run the business...


The "government" like the "cloud" is just an abstraction.

The cloud is at the end someone else's computer. No, I'm sure Microsoft CEO isn't interested in sabotaging my business just like I'm sure the POTUS doesn't actively decide to kill innocent civilians. However, they make compromises (something we all do in engineering) and some of those compromises could end up with us as collateral damage.

What I'm getting at is even if all government agencies have purest of pure hearts, someone somewhere will eventually leave a door unlocked. Nobody can tell me with 100% certainty that this won't happen in the US and I trust their competence more than some outside contractor working for the Qatari emir.

This is my point of view on why we shouldn't have a dragnet. I don't have to argue that my government is evil. I don't even have to say my government is incompetent. But who in my government will testify for the other 200+ governments and their agents?


Skype is broken.

A while ago I saw multiple charges on my MSN account which is linked to my skype account. It was for Skype credits through some odd russian account that was messaging me on skype and some how getting my account to purchase credits. I quickly changed my password and removed my CC from my account.

When I tried to get the issue resolved no one from Microsoft's support was able to help me because I couldn't verify the date I opened up my skype account (it was a long time ago I couldn't remember)

I managed to get my money back only when I went to Visa and told them these charges were fraudulent. Microsoft returned my money the next day and I haven't used skype since then.


A few weeks ago, after more than 8 years having not used Skype, I got a random email saying my password was reset. Knowing it wasn't me and now remembering I have a Skype account, I decided to just close the account. To reset my password I had to verify my email address and answer about 15 questions, most of which I didn't know the answer to (but was still able to reset it). It took 45 minutes with support to get the account closed. I realized later that I never got a pre-verification email for the initial reset and was nervous my email might have been compromised, but I really don't think that was the case. I think it was reset through some other method, possibly internal since it bypassed the email verification. I did have a $1.03 balance on my account and my theory is that someone inside Skype is targeting stale accounts with a balance or CCs still on file.


A few weeks ago was a big data leak. I would check your email from there. Much more likely than someone at Skype wanting to steal your $1.03


Skype is the worst business tool that I use day to day and it continues to get buggier with each new release. I now have permanent ghost notification icons and I had delete Skype on my iPhone so my desktop app could receive calls reliably.

Headwinds indeed.


Skype really went down the toilet when Microsoft bought them. At one point (~5 years ago) they were the best video chat and VOIP product by a long shot. Text chat and user search were clunky, but at least the notifications were reliable. It was a great tool for working with a remote team spanning multiple continents.

Now, the voice quality is still pretty good compared to a landline call, but the calls tend to drop, video quality has gone to crap, and the call/text notifications are broken. (I just got a notification on my phone about a text from yesterday, and it never showed up on my computer. WTF!??)


After purchase, Microsoft changed the architecture from peer-to-peer to client-server, which incurs extra latency obviously.

https://blogs.skype.com/2013/10/04/skype-architecture-update...

http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/05/skype-replaces-p2p-s...


Great for surveillance though!


Search is still horrible. I can only assume that is is sequentially searching back through every line of chat with no index and hanging everything in the process.

Then when it does find something the common use case is never going to be scrolling back through 3 years of chat to get back to current messages, should just show say 100 lines of context and load more on demand.

I have no idea what they actually do on this product text chat wise, but it has always been average and isn't getting any better.


Skype on multiple devices has been in ruins for years. I'm not sure why, but being 'active' on two different products causes absolute meltdowns. Calls you can't answer, no sound or no video, the second device ringing endlessly after the first picks up, and anything else I can think of.


I feel it has gotten better recently, I've used Skype as a phone replacement ( with an actual skype number and in conjunction with google voice for sms) for a few years now, and currently run it on two laptops and two phones and haven't had issues for several months (I did have problems when I used it with android a while back, but have not since I no longer use it on that platform).


Interesting. I'll have to look into whether it's improved, or has Android specific bugs. Most of my multi-device experiences have included android, and that's reliably been the worst situation.


For reference my devices with skype installed are my personal phone with win 10, my development phone with ios, and win 10 / osx laptops. I also have a (5.1) android for development, but no skype on there.


Skype is pretty horrible (at least for me) on Windows 10. Freezes often.

OS X Skype seems to work the best. Android version seems to be using a random number generator for displaying contact list availability status.


I use the app version on win 10(anniversary) not the desktop. Don't know if that makes a difference but works fine for me. Even talking across the great firewall of china works fine surprisingly.


Even text messaging on multiple devices is a disaster. If I have Skype running on a PC and an iPhone, the phone app will almost never receive new messages.


At least we now have an HTTP API so we can write our own Skype clients.


I was astounded when Skype showed up in KDE Telepathy in last months release. So yeah, backwards compatibility with the insecure backdoored hell that is Skype is great going forward.


Good news unless, of course, it's the backend that is causing all the issues.


Skype has gone down hill terribly since being acquired by Microsoft. You can almost draw a line in the sand it's been so bad.

I used to use skype for texting people, but it's now completely useless for that. They can't receive any SMS messages from any phones (at least in the US), and who knows if what you send actually goes somewhere. Nevermind they advertise this feature when you're signing up. Its shocking they would allow a feature like that to still exist and just be fundamentally broken. They did recently move it to some obscure place in the UI in a recent "update" and not even one of their support people knew where it had gone; I had to find it again myself.

That said, all the recent UI updates have been horrible. Not just talking buggy, but the general look and feel has gone way down hill. I had an old laptop with an older version of the Skype client and its amazing the different. They should have left well enough alone.

Add in the super annoying birthday notifications as chat messages, the spam that has gotten out of control, broken payments recharge/web UI, it's a wonder Microsoft should just shutter the entire product down. It's ruined and I have stopped using it. It's clear they do not care about their end users, or improving the product in any sustainable way.

I wonder how long before the same happens with LinkedIn (which is already on the deathbed in terms of how bad and buggy it's been getting lately).


Maybe it was the gutting that Skylake did to optimize profits when selling to Microsoft.

http://www.businessinsider.com/skype-scandal-silver-lake-201...


The weird part is that Skype, like it or not, has become worse every year. If you asked me 2 years ago I would never imagine it could loose users ever (like, whatsapp for example) now I see that I was wrong. Not only they did not improve or add functionality required by some users, loosing to competitors, but also their software has become buggier somehow.


That's what terrible management does to products


When the product began to display connection status at launch, it was a welcome update but it made me wonder why the recent decision to add this to the UI. If things are moving along smoothly, there doesn't tend to be a need to add gauges and indicators to your instrumentation. What is most likely are some backend issues after some migration or update was leading to a lot of inconsistent messaging problems. Adding connection status was a sanity check for troubleshooting these issues. It was one of those improvements that helped explain why things seemed to be a bit flaky recently.

There is a lot of competition in this space and I sort of feel that Skype was a Windows Phone play that didn't pan out for MS after the Windows Phone failed (along side the Nokia deal). Unfortunately for the London office, the product heads are not really sure how to right this ship. Hopefully everyone lands gracefully, whatever happens with the product.


Also an outsider, looking in, but I get the feeling it was more the opposite, Microsoft bought Skype for its brand first, users second, and left alone as a fiefdom to itself. I think Windows mobile efforts (phone) have actually been part of the kick (along with external pressure from Slack, HipChat, Facebook Messenger, Whatsapp, et al) to finally unify efforts, beyond just unifying brands.


The contrary perspective is appreciated. My outside take was the MS acquired Skype for the reasons you mention and in addition they also thought they had a VoiP solution that would be the killer app for Windows Phone. Then that ran into the obvious telecom incumbent push back that Apple and the iPhone seemed to navigate with such ease. MS arrogantly disregarded the telecoms positioning in this time period period since the telecoms were going to lose their voice revenue before having worked out mobile IP pricing and caps. The telecoms didn't want a voice service competition. So then Windows Phone was without its killer app and everything started to atrophy (Windows Phone/Skype/Nokia).


From what I saw, I felt like Microsoft bought Skype well before its modern Windows Phone plans quite started to take shape and that Microsoft didn't have much of an idea what to do with Skype other than Ebay was selling it and Microsoft preferred to own it than let it go to a competitor. (Thus far seems to be just about the only reason they recently bought LinkedIn, too. It was for sale and they didn't want it going to a competitor.) At the time of the Skype purchase it seemed that Microsoft was still trying to salvage what it could of MSN Messenger/Windows Live Messenger/Live Messenger/some other Brand of the Day which was leaking users like a sieve and meanwhile was fighting an internal fiefdom war with Lync, which was executing faster and smarter.

Basically, insert classic XKCD org chart diagram here of Microsoft being in a Mexican standoff with itself, especially at that time.

From that perspective, (and also one of being a Windows Phone 8 and now 10 owner), I don't think Skype was bought for Windows Phone and I don't think Skype is part of why Windows Phone is currently seeming rather atrophied. Instead, I think its Windows Phone where we've seen some of the hardest fought "battles" in the "One Microsoft" movement to de-escalate the old "mexican standoff" at Microsoft. (Which makes sense in a strange way: Microsoft couldn't afford as many "casualties" on the desktop or in the enterprise, so phone/mobile has been the proxy war.)

I think wanting a VoIP competitor to Apple's Facetime efforts was a part of the overall agenda for at least one of the messaging teams. But in terms of a lot of the shifts in branding choices and app approaches, I think a lot more of what we have seen in Windows Phone has been Microsoft's most externally visible battlefield where it has been trying to figure how best to merge all of its messaging and communications teams and destroy the old fiefdoms and silos (and guns pointed at each others heads). (All while marketing tries to fight from accidentally burning down a brand along with some of the bridges...) Windows Phone was just a useful catalyst (battlefield) to force that confrontation, without impacting the desktop too much.

That's essentially what this announcement seems to be about to me: the crashing down of another silo as Microsoft truly starts to consolidate its many communications apps.


Just a small correction: Microsoft bought Skype from Silver Lake / Andreessen Horowitz, not EBay. At the time Microsoft bought it, Skype seemed to prepare for an IPO, although I'm not sure how willing they were to go through with it.


Some of us want to see what it is doing!


I wish Skype for business was a decent product but it's not. Strange UI quirks. Limits on the length of messages for no good reason. Emoticons which only appear once the message is sent - SQL statements are rendered to nonsense. All images are converted to thumbnails which need to be opened. Audio quality issues galore too. A lot of companies have moved to Skype for business for IM and VoIP. Not an enterprise level product.


Isn't Skype for Business just Lync with a new name? I'm not sure it has any relation to the original Skype?


Exactly it's like someone said let's turn Lync into Skype. Rather than building something useful they added the Skype name and kept the same dodgy implementation. Pat on the backs all round...


Yes, even the .exe is still called Lync


I think it is, but lync 2011 and SFB seem like very different products.


A lot of the dodgy stuff is because there are a lot of internals that haven't really been changed since it was Office Communicator 2007. I've spent far too much of my life dealing with these oddities, and I'll assure you, it is a trainwreck.

If you want to really have fun, write software that uses their terrible SDKs to plug into and extend Lync/Skype for Business.

Still, since it's bundled with Office and Office365 Exchange, lots of people are using it and dropping SameTime or XMPP or other options in large corporations.


> Emoticons which only appear once the message is sent - SQL statements are rendered to nonsense.

I was going to say try to prefix with "!! ", but it doesn't seem to work anymore! It used to disable formatting and change to monospace font.

!! SQL statements, source code fragments, etc.


There is a setting in the client to turn this garbage off. It's a terrible default, though.


Settings > Tools > Options > IM > Show emoticons in messages

Of course, the people you're chatting with have to do it as well otherwise they'll still see them, but if you're sending SQL statements, log messages, and such, it makes sense to disable them.


My company switched from WebEx to Skype Business last year. There was a transition period. Everyone stayed in WebEx till they shut down out accounts.

The list of gripes is too long...but let's just say With the lost of productivity I hope they are paying my company to use it.


The one thing I will give them is large file transfers. I hate having to deal with gmail telling me I need to upload it to drive, then warning me that it isn't shared with the recipient, etc, etc.


Skype hasn't really changed in years now. Linux support doesn't exist despite claims of embracing it.

This is an official sign that it would be strictly in maintenance mode.


I use Skype on Linux. Its a few versions behind, but to be honest last time I looked at it on Windows it was full of unnecessary flashy effects with no real purpose. I don't care about those as the Linux interface is fine for me. The call quality is crap whatever platform is being used.


Skype for Linux' UI is definitely better than the ad-ridden Windows counterpart. BUT it doesn't work. At work we have a lot of group chats, and some of them simply aren't shown in the Linux Desktop client.

And Skype for Web is utter crap (no non-latin search in contacts, WTF?), though it displays all messages.


It is pretty bad that a company with a global product doesn't include global support. In addition to the lack of support for non-latin characters in search, here's another one. I live in a country that uses the Buddhist era calendar. So the year is 2559 not 2016, a difference of 543 years. Skype sent me a notice that one of my contacts had a birthday and had turned 579 (she turned 36).



If anyone wants to use Skype I just use the web client. It works with voice on Chromium now and thats good enough for me while I keep ranting about open protocols and how everyone should be using Vector now.


> Linux support doesn't exist despite claims of embracing it.

huh :) i use skype on linux (archlinux) daily. and having seen my colleagues use it on windows, honestly, i find overall experience on linux infinitely better.

on windows there are tons of flashy things going on which serve to distract more than anything useful. if you happen to use non-corporate version, a huge chunk of chat area is filled with ads ^^)


Yup thats why I use the web client. I have to use it for work, otherwise I would've just used some XMPP client hooked to the public Jabber network.


Yup. I bet this office closure was just to consolidate the offices as they go to minimal offshore support somewhere to hold it in maintenance mode.

They've done nothing but make it worse since they bought it.


It doesn't sound like you're even remotely informed of what's going on in the Skype world lately. Basically, the old infrastructure was peer-to-peer, and over the last couple of months, Microsoft has been moving Skype over to a cloud version. That's why you'll notice the announcements that a lot of older clients and platforms would stop working, and brand new apps have been made for all of the current platforms... including a brand new Linux client.

If anything, this year is the biggest change Skype has EVER HAD.


Sounds like I should take a look at the latest client, I stopped using Skype years ago because the Linux client sucked so much.


No guarantees it won't still suck. (Though it's completely new, I think it's Electron-based or something.) Just saying, there IS a huge momentum at Microsoft to rework Skype from the ground up.


Skype was moved to a client-server architecture (with the old p2p supernodes being run only by MS) soon after they bought it, not recently.


Not really. A supernode isn't really client/server architecture, even if it's hosted by Microsoft. Communication between users is still peer-to-peer. Supernodes are basically meant to help you find the client of who you're talking to. (Like the master server in many FPS games, it's just helping you find other players, one of the players or a dedicated server someone is running is actually hosting.) You could see this behavior recently even, in that if you sent a chat or a file, it could not go through unless both your client and their client were simultaneously online.

http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/05/skype-replaces-p2p-s...

Now, all of your actual communications are being stored in Microsoft's cloud infrastructure. This means the actual content is centralized, and can be delivered when the other client is not present, which will help a lot with mobile. It also means it's more able to be reached by government data requests, of course.


The product does not seem to have ever changed. It's clunkier than ever too. You can find me on Duo.


On Linux you have the choice between "never changed, clunkier than ever" and "OMG, this is completely different" (https://blogs.skype.com/2016/07/13/skype-for-linux-alpha-and...)


The "new" Linux interface is roughly comparable to what Windows/Mac users have had for a while now.


It still can't sync message status across devices. Now and then I get re-ordered messages. Some messages repeatedly keep showing up as unread. It's quite bad at the messaging side.

The dumb UI I sorta excused as being, well, made by a small team not a big US retail company. The fact MSFT didn't overhaul it all is really annoying.


From my brief experience running Skype on multiple devices; if you can get both of them online at the same time for a while, it'll sync up eventually. If it's always one or the other, good luck (there's a reason I stopped running it on two devices)


I have my phone running right next to my laptop. It still doesn't handle things right (Signal does). If one is offline for a bit then sometimes it syncs, sometimes it leaves unread indicators.


Ah, "Unify some positions", - the old - "we are not sacking YOU, but your role doesn't exist any more".

I believe this works around some relevant labour laws.


This is precisely how redundancy works. Sacking is generally related to personal performance. Not the same thing.


In the UK is there a material difference from an employee perspective? In the US, if you are fired with cause, the company can fight you on paying out unemployment. If you are terminated without cause, it typically doesn't matter what the reason was behind it--you're still eligible for unemployment.


Yes. In the UK at least, there are 3 forms of payment someone might receive:

- Unemployment benefits, paid by the state if they don't get another job straight away;

- Their usual salary during the notice period, or pay in lieu of notice if they are sent home immediately (common in IT for security reasons);

- Redundancy pay.

The last one only needs to be paid in the case of dismissal "without cause". However, it's not called that. Redundancy refers to the fact that the job doesn't exist anymore. E.g., because the office closed down as is happening at Skype London. You can't just sack someone on a whim and say it is "without cause".

Where things get a bit more complicated in a case like Skype/Microsoft is that they have an obligation to offer their existing employees new jobs elsewhere in the company if possible. This isn't an especially strong obligation, but it does make things awkward if they keep, say, 50% of the staff, because there needs to be some reasoning as to why they kept that particular 50%, which needs to be seen as fair.


Microsoft is also reportedly working on yet another Skype client, alongside their Skype Universal Windows app.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/09/micros...


Newsflash: big company does strategic business and decides to clean up redundancies...

I get that it's sad when your job no longer exists, but you can't really expect a business to pay for people it doesn't need anymore. I see a lot of outrage as people seem to think it's unethical to have your job lose it's right to existence, but it's just a fact of life if you're working for a larger business: you might be needed at some point, and at some other point, that might no longer be the case.


There's another news article on Twitter closing its India office and firing a team of barely 20 .. Which is dominated by discussion of how Indian programmers suck (and about the quality of English language spoken in India).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12538640

This thread is about Skype.


Sometimes I wonder about the invisible costs of a popular messaging system that often drops messages and/or notifications. How much miscommunication and missed connections has it caused?

It's really shameful to not have something reliable after we've had SMS for 2 decades with <1% failure rate and iMessage/Hangouts is generally okay. It really irks me in the worst way, being someone who has enough problems keeping in touch with people.


A Skype write-off is probably coming in the next 2-3 years, along with many more layoffs. Microsoft will never make its $8 billion back on Skype.


I would not be so sure. How much did the NSA pay for this, one way or another?


I hope so, and maybe a decent VOIP client will gain market share.


Is one really needed? Facebook has VOIP, Slack has VOIP, most modern games have decent built in VOIP. It's not an interesting problem anymore and it's available everywhere.


Network effects. Skype is the only thing resembling a de facto standard for talking to any two random non-technical people. Skype has literally 100x the monthly active users of Slack, and barely anyone is on slack to make VOIP calls, especially with people outside of their team.


That's what WebRTC promises to solve, and there are already great tools using it (Appear.in for example).

What they don't solve is the discovery/network aspect.

My own side project/startup wannabee uses WebRTC to enable random non-technical people to talk to companies that use our product :) ( https://keveo.tv/en/ ).


Then it's good enough. Facebook is bigger than Skype and you can have a chat/VOIP call with anyone on Facebook, even if they're not your friend. Then there's Google hangouts as well. Slack is meant for teams. Gamers use Discord.


Slack has VoIP?


I will be happily dancing around the flames of Skype.


And what irritates me the most is that we don't have any real alternative.


Take a look at Wire. (http://wire.com) Good Skype alternative, and E2E encryption. I've been enjoying it quite a bit.


Good app. But none of my friends are using it.


Closed source, so E2E has to be taken on faith.

Strictly better than Skype in some ways, but privacy can't be taken to be one of them.


According to the table here https://wire.com/privacy/ it's open source


Further to the point, here are their GitHub repos: https://github.com/wireapp


A-ha! Normally I'm used to these apps proclaiming their Free-ness on the front webpage, but it didn't jump out at here. Much thanks for the linK!


You don't have a real phone anymore? Because that's what I'm using...


When consultants, partners, sales people, anyone really, send me a invitation to a Skype call, or a Google Hangout thingy, I always ask that they call me on my office phone. If that's not okay, then we'll just have to make due with email.

I'm not going to look for my headset, figure out how to use the right inputs and output, or sign up for a Google account because someone wants to call me. I have function telephone with a good wireless headset that just works.


I do the same, but international phone calls are still rather impractical compared to Hangout / Skype-like tool of choice. And this is coming from a Linux user who doesn't get supported by many such tools :) At least most tools have a way to dial into them from a standard phone.


Have you ever gotten a negative response to your "landline or bust" philosophy? It just seems a bit inflexible to me.


I use it the most, but that is not comparable. I am just saying that, because I had X situations where somebody told me "Add me on skype", and then i say look, no.


Google Hangouts?


"The company said it was consolidating its London offices and moving workers to a new site in Paddington."

It's not that big of a deal, they are just trying to consolidate all of the good engineers into a cheaper office and letting go of the dead weight.


I really hope this is the end for Skype for Business. Everything about it is terrible


The whole merger of Skype with Microsoft's legacy products (Communicator and Lync) has been a disaster. Lync was a solid product in the corporate world. Now I dread getting a Skype meeting. I can't remember the last time where I've been on a Skype for Business meeting where at least one person wasn't having serious issues. They took a solid product and made a mess of it.


It's just not skype, even Skype for business (former Lync) has gone down the drain. It still baffles me why I can't paste 10 lines of code. Copying is wonky, messages go to wrong computer. Calls barely work. Don't even get me started on the UI.


I wonder what that means for the Prague office.


Prague is a lot cheaper than London.

Skype pays employees with title Software Development Engineer II:

  US$46k in Prague [0], and
  US$82k in London [1].
And I suspect life is a lot more comfortable in Prague on $46k than London on $82k

[0] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Skype-Prague-Salaries-EI_IE... [1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Skype-London-Salaries-EI_IE...


Just went through Prague on a shoestring budget. YMMV but that salary over there seems like you'd be living very, very well.


Only if you are not a fan of travelling, technology etc.


What are you talking about?

Prague is a modern city, and the Check Republic is in the EU and even in the schengen area, so travel around Europe is a non issue.


I mean food and accommodation can be cheap but for the rest you pay "western" prices which makes it less appealing. You have to save for a new piece of technology longer and when going to places like UK stay in hostels and eat tinned food or again save longer...


But then you have the whole of Eastern Europe and south Europe to visit too, which is pretty awesome. Also, rent and food is probably your biggest budget. The beer is also awesome. And you get 5 weeks of vacation like everywhere in the EU.


But after food and accommodation, the developer in Prague probably has more disposable income than one in London, so will save quicker.


Usually you pocket your entire salary since cost of living and taxes are so low.

Yes, you won't be buying Teslas on that salary but most things not over $3k won't break the bank.


Yeah, I noticed that tech products aren't much cheaper in eastern Europe than in the West.


Prague is a really cool city. A lot more cheaper and has better climate than London. I suspect rent is substantially cheaper as well. And they are on their own currency, not stinking euros.


Rent is ridiculously cheap in Prague, I had friends renting a 73 square meters flat in Zizkov (in the good parts of Zizkov) for like 400€.


Not having the Euro is annoying for people who live close by and love to visit, though. (like me ;) )


Rent is ridiculously cheap in Prague, I had friends renting a 73 square meters flat in Zizkov (in the good parts of Zizkov) for like 400€.


  (82-46) * 220 = 7920
$7.92 million of savings. Somebody could see the bottomline improving and stock price rocketing higher.


If one wants to cause a stock price to rocket, I don't think finding $8M in a $500B company with $85B in revenue is going to cut it.


I thought that the pun was obvious.


Your milkmaid calculation misses the taxation part paid by the employer. London might be sort of a tax-haven compared to Prague.


Peanuts


Funny to see how comments about pretty much the same subject [1] are completely different depending on the company on the spotlight even when the number people getting laid off is way higher here.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12538640


> Microsoft reviewed some London-based roles and made the decision to unify some engineering positions.

What does that mean?


Since the Skype team hasn't actually done anything worthwhile in the past few years, they can stop pretending and just kick them out.


Probably means some people are getting fired and others are being merged into other teams.


>>Probably means some people are getting fired

I think the proper term in this case is "laid off", since the company is eliminating those positions by closing that particular office.


Business speak for human centipede.


From an outside perspective, it sounds like Microsoft finally decided to merge various "Skype, but not efforts". There's the obvious in that Skype has had a bunch of different platform clients that were never quite all aligned and is now trying to merge everything into a single UWP client.

But it also sounds like Microsoft is also finally slowly starting to merge in the efforts from the business side (Yammer, Skype for Business aka Lync) and unify those communication efforts a bit more than just how Skype and Skype for Business share a brand but not much else. (All of this in an effort to present a more unified front versus Slack, HipChat, and others currently eating into the enterprise space and Whatsapp, Facebook Messenger, and others into the consumer space.)

From that perspective it's easy to imagine there have been quite a positions that have been redundant between the various teams.


It seems it's another way of saying "redundancy" in the UK.


engineers do everything: Product management, testing, ops?


Anyone else has these creepy scam-ads on the frontpage of the Skype-client? Á la „Loose 50 pounds in 2 weeks“


Founded in London?

I thought it was registered in Luxembourg and had a marketing office in London. Development was in Estonia...


First it was developed in Estonia, then they sold it to eBay for couple of mil. Then eBay sold it to MS for couple of bil.


It is there another alternative to Skype that is peer-to-peer, has encryption and works on Linux?


Skype has not been peer-to-peer for years, already.

You can safely remove peer-to-peer from your requirements for an alternative.

If you are looking for an desktop app accessible to mainstream users, you can try viber.


A few, but none with enough momentum to win over the mainstream. See Tox, Vector/Matrix, Jitsi with OTR... Otherwise there are web-based solutions that work well. Is it talky.io?

EDIT: Not forgetting Signal, of course. But I think you mean video comms?


I'm cautiously impressed by Matrix's momentum, to be honest (although I'm biased given I work on it) - we've got over 300K users on the matrix.org server now and around 1000 other servers visible from matrix.org. Meanwhile Riot.im (the app previously known as Vector.im) is hopefully pretty mainstream friendly...


I'm looking forward to Matrix too. It's still very immature right now through, as (as I understand it) we're still waiting for E2E encryption on mobile and group video calling(?).

It's hard to see Matrix as a standard right now too, with only one server and one client even remotely complete. Would love to see a multiplatform native client!

Thanks for the work you do, I realllllly hope matrix attains some success.


If what you need is just the video part, try https://appear.in/


I only ever use Skype to talk to my parents back at home, it works OK.

I'm wondering if there is a better system though, the main issue is my parents are used to using Skype, it would be an uphill struggle to get them to feel comfortable with something new.


This is a sad thread to read, I'd read so many positive things about Microsoft recently. Are people from Microsoft bothered by such a strong negative consensus regarding Skype?


Microsoft is laying people off left and right. Every year lately.


Well maybe their jobs could be saved by dedicating them to reliable tone production over TCP/IP. Ever try to access a mailbox or navigate a customer support call center through Skype?


How can the fact it's TCP/IP interfere with the tones? TCP/IP only sees bytes.


Audio compression optimized for psychoacoustics, I figure.

I doubt you'd be able to plug a dial-up modem into skype and achieve a working computer connection. Pure tones (as from key presses) is a less extreme case, but it's a conceivable problem.


To add to your point: Skype uses SILK codec, on which OPUS, the currently preferred codec for internet-audio, was based.


If you do an outbound call (i.e. outside Skype, to something that would actually use DTMF) Skype doesn't use SILK/Opus on the outbound connection. You can tell because the quality is way worse.

There are also issues with the echo cancellation Skype uses. If you have issues with DTMF, that's the likely cause, not the audio codec.


But echo cancellation should not be a problem on mobile devices.


Disable your echo cancellation. It breaks DTMF.


That feels more like firing a team for not producing, not making bottom-of-the-stack-rank cuts because you need to free up budget.


Brilliant. Thanks. (For the uninitiated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12538640)




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