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California's generation of electricity from coal drops dramatically (latimes.com)
193 points by Osiris30 on May 12, 2016 | hide | past | favorite | 84 comments



The LA Times' title for this article is wrong. California does not generate electricity from coal, however, California uses a lot of electricity generated from coal. As the article notes near the end, California uses electricity from coal generated out of state.

According to SNL, "at times, as much as 50% of Southern California's electricity still comes from coal-fired plants, Steve Homer, director of project management for the Southern California Public Power Authority, or SCPPA, told SNL Energy." https://www.snl.com/InteractiveX/Article.aspx?cdid=A-3411331...

This really is a reminder that the writers of articles frequently do not write the headlines. That's a big reason why titles of articles are frequently misleading.


According to the same source:

> In 2014, less than 5% of California's total energy demand was served by coal and petroleum coke-fired plants, nearly all of it from plants outside the state

Which is followed by what you quoted:

> At times...

So, according to that source, out of state coal consumption can range from 5% to 50%. It doesn't say exactly when the 50% figure was hit, or why.


Peak use vs. average use. A dramatic spike in usage means you need to get power from somewhere (or put up with brownouts), and on occasion that means 50% comes from coal even if it's only for 30 minutes a few times a month.


Stocks versus flows. You integrate power over time to get energy. 5% of the energy comes from coal but up to 50% of the power. That means that much of the time the use of coal power has to be less than 5%. Probably but not necessarily much less.


Can you elaborate? I can't remember that month of Physics when we learned how equations relating to power.


Power is the rate at which energy is flowing. You can get the same amount of energy by either a large amount of power for a short time or a small amount of power for a short time. A way you could have up to 50% coal power but only 5% coal energy is if you use 0% coal for power 90% of the time but 10% of the time use 50% coal power.


Average contribution from coal: 5%

Max contribution from coal: 50%


> So, according to that source, out of state coal consumption can range from 5% to 50%. It doesn't say exactly when the 50% figure was hit, or why.

The quote is from the Southern California Public Power Agency (SCPPA). Their members include LADWP, Anaheim, and other municipal power agencies. The 50% of which he speaks is, like others have noted, for demand (not energy), but only for SCPPA, not all of California. The < 5% is for all of California.


Note that it's 5% for California vs 50% for Southern California.


The reason is pretty simple: California doesn't have many power plants.

I spent a day or two once sifting through California Public Utility Commission archives.

California has not approved a coal plant since at least 1978, mainly due to NIMBY concerns wherever they tried to build them.


I disagree with most things NIMBY, but can you really fault people for not wanting a coal-burning power plant in their backyard given the sheer volume of pollutants released from them? It seems like a great thing that California hasn't approved a new one in 40 years.


Fun fact: a coal plant releases more radiological pollution in a day than a nuclear plant releases in a year.


Fun fact: coal is produces more pollution of all types ranging from radioactivity to CO2 to metals to acid rain generators (SOx/NOx) to ozone (NOx again) to black carbon aerosols (or even black carbon on snow!). Coal extraction is bad for workers and the environment, and it's often dangerous to mine. It is the worst energy technology period.

We're playing stage 3 of Power Grid, and coal is already getting more expensive. Let's just stop burning it now please.

Also we should leave some coal around just in case we destroy society and our descendants need to bootstrap a civilization again. It's hard to do that without an easily accessible fossil fuel.


Measured when and on what coal plant design? It's not like all coal plants can be generalised in such a way.. or can they?


Coal involves burning tons of minerals, concentrating the non-carbon elements of those minerals into coal ash and exhaust. A lot of those other minerals are radioactive or otherwise toxic.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-r...

However, to make a fair comparison you should also consider the toxic byproducts of uranium extraction and purification. Coal is not refined in anywhere near the same degree as reactor-grade uranium.


If you're going to consider those for uranium you also need to consider them for coal.

The energy density of uranium makes it a non-issue. A 1GW reactor fissions about 1 ton of enriched uranium per year. You need about 10x as much raw material, so we're talking about 10 tons of uranium per year.

If you can't reprocess, then you lose about 95% of the fissionable material in the uranium. So you use up 20 tons of material per year, and you need to mine about 200 tons.

In comparison, a 1GW coal plant uses about 3 million tons of coal per year. And be real, coal isn't particularly clean to mine either. You need to wash it, and that water ends up just as polluted with heavy metals as the fly ash. Not to mention the human toll - black lung disease still killed about 25k people in the year 2013, and incidence rates (in the active miner population) have actually been rising since the 1990s.

It's the difference between a small-scale mining operation and large-scale strip mining.


> However, to make a fair comparison you should also consider the toxic byproducts of uranium extraction and purification. Coal is not refined in anywhere near the same degree as reactor-grade uranium.

If I understand correctly, these waste products are liquid or solid that can be stored, rather than dispersed into the atmosphere like coal byproducts. (Of course, storage poses its own technical challenges, like warning people in fifty thousand years not to mess with them, and the Hanford site's current leakage problems.)


Fission by-products include irradiated water, radiactive xenon (a problem as that turns out to be a neutron-absorbant and resulted in unexplained power-loss on early nuclear reactors), and other gasses.

There's a lot of crud they're producing.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/NucEne/xenon.html


The radioisotopes are in the fuel, so it doesn't depend much on plant design. In any case, coal technology is pretty standardized by now.


My understanding is that this is from the radioactive carbon-14 isotope which is in the CO2 emitted, at something like one part per trillion. So it should apply to any non-CCS powerplant.

But it's still misleading, since essentially all of that CO2 will remain in the atmosphere, while radioactivity in the form of uranium, plutonium etc. will all rain down to the ground quickly (i.e. "fallout").

Edit: I remembered wrong, carbon-14 isn't the problem. It's uranium etc. in the ash from coal powerplants. Disregard this post.



That's grossly misleading. The first problem with it, is it assume that coal fired plants release their fly ash up the stocks, they don't, not anymore.

The second problem with it is the radio isotopes are Uranium and Thorium which as far as these things go are a nothing burger. AKA they are very weakly radioactive and they don't bio-accumulate.

Third problem with it is fly ash is about as radio-active as plain dirt. Because dirt also has similar levels of thorium and uranium in it.


At the end of the day, the average person would be more exposed to radioactivity from walking by fly ash (in a pond, in a pile, in the air, wherever it is) than from shielded waste. "[...] fly ash most definitely is not more radioactive than nuclear waste. Instead, I think he is saying that if you stood next to a pile of fly ash you’d probably get a bigger radiation dose than if you stood next to radioactive waste that is adequately shielded." [0]

Also statistics helps frame an accurate picture when looking at it in terms of energy, not mass: "'In fact, the fly ash emitted by a power plant—a by-product from burning coal for electricity—carries into the surrounding environment 100 times more radiation than a nuclear power plant producing the same amount of energy.' Our source for this statistic is Dana Christensen, an associate lab director for energy and engineering at Oak Ridge National Laboratory as well as 1978 paper in Science authored by J. P. McBride and colleagues, also of ORNL." [1]

[0] http://www.cejournal.net/?p=410

[1] Ignore the incorrect headline: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-r...


> the average person would be more exposed to radioactivity from walking by fly ash (in a pond, in a pile, in the air, wherever it is) than from shielded waste.

This is wrong because your shielding is radioactive. Concrete is radio active, dirt is radio active, fly ash is radio active. Your granite counter top is radio active.

Fly ash sitting in a landfill has zero radio-logical hazard. Because there isn't anything about it that will increase the local back ground radiation level. And because the radio-isotopes have a zero risk profile.

That same cannot be said for nuclear waste.

That is why the original statement is grossly misleading. And why it pops up again and again like bad penny.


Even more fun - a large portion of that release is aerosolized emissions.


Fun fact: both are utterly fucking irrelevant.

There's a Scientific American article from a few years back which points out that coal ash is radioactive. It turns out that, yes, it is, rather mildly. But it's still thousands of times below the the lowest clinical significant level.

The problem with nuclear arises, say, should a core failure occur the radiation exposure received in a few minutes would exceed that of a very long time (I believe it was millions of years) of fly-ash exposure.

Or, when in normal operation of a nuclear power plant you are creating waste products, including the plant structure itself which are deadly for tens of thousands of years. Far longer than any human institutions or even extant languages.

Of the various noxious consequences of coal-fired power generation (and there are many), radioactive emissions are simply not a concern.


> Or, when in normal operation of a nuclear power plant you are creating waste products, including the plant structure itself which are deadly for tens of thousands of years. Far longer than any human institutions or even extant languages.

So pulverize the nuclear waste product, including the "deadly" plant structure itself, mix with other stuff, and spread it evenly in a large landfill. Or even better, make fine powder and throw it into the atmosphere. With a bit of wind, everything will be well below "lowest clinical significant level."

Sounds horrible? But that's exactly what coal plants do!


Chemist James Lovelock, one of the authors of the Gaia hypothesis, suggested dispersing nuclear waste throughout nature preserves. Animals can adapt to the radiation pretty quickly at low levels and it would discourage humans from developing the preserves.


"The solution to pollution is dilution."


Small amounts of highly radioactive waste are easier to deal with than large amounts of low-level waste. There's also the problem that the ecosystem may concentrate heavy metals, much as aquatic ecosystems do. As you move up the food chain in fish, mercury concentration increases, to the point that swordfish now have a warning.


"Normal radiation emissions" from nuclear power plants do not include decomissioned structures.


You disagree with most things NIMBY because it is generally used as a pejorative. However, the basics of the term is pretty benign.

E.g., people who are pro urban density tend to be NIMBY on things that expand car usage. Then they label anti-density people as "NIMBY", as if that really means anything. The fact is that they're both NIMBY, just on different issues.

Everyone is NIMBY on something.


It's not a great thing to deny new permits and then import the power from out-of-state. It's less efficient because you have transmission losses.

Modern society is pretty cool, but it does have some costs. I have little patience for people who want all the benefits of modern society but none of the costs.


I don't really fault anyone for being opposed to things they don't like in their neighborhood.

The problem is systems that gives property owners a veto over other people's property.


Also, given that coal plants emit huge amounts of CO2, their "back yard" is arguably the entire planet.


> California has not approved a coal plant since at least 1978, mainly due to NIMBY concerns wherever they tried to build them.

This seems like a misleading statistic. Since you have looked at the numbers, how many natural gas power plants were built over the same time period? I can think of at least two just in my county.


> First, the share of California's total megawatt hours of power generated by burning coal dropped from 1% in 2007 to just 0.2% in 2015.

> Second, in a report that the agency released last week, California saw a 96% decrease in coal-fueled electric power consumption during the same time frame. That is the steepest fall by percentage of any state.

That reads to me like the title is correct but incomplete - coal energy production and consumption are both down significantly.


Ok, we've attempted to make the title more accurate. If anybody suggests a better title, we can change it again.


My suggestion: California's minimal coal-generated elecricity imports fall another 96%

Problems with title as it stands:

1. Suggests California has (or had) considerable coal-based generation. It doesn't and didn't.

2. Suggests California's reliance on coal-fired electricity was high. It wasn't.

3. Fails to disclose that a small quantity of imported power has been reduced yet further.

It's actually almost a perfectly anti-informative headline. Reading it you'd form a mental state nearly perfectly counter to reality.


But the article does address both the in-state generation and consumption. It doesn't do a great job of clearly separating the two, but it mentions that both are down dramatically.

Here it explicitly refers to all power fueled by coal as different from power generated by coal in-state:

"Second, in a report that the agency released last week, California saw a 96% decrease in coal-fueled electric power consumption during the same time frame."

And goes into the reasons why this shift is affecting not just in-state generation but consumption of out-of-state coal power:

"“What the bill basically said is, if you’re going to sell power in California, you have to be as clean as the power that we burn here in California,” said Dan Jacobson, legislative director for the advocacy group Environment California."

It even calls out a plant in Nevada as one of the plants providing power to CA that was taken offline:

"For example, the 1,636-megawatt coal-fired Mohave Generating Station in Laughlin, Nev., shut down at the end of 2005. Southern California Edison had a 56% interest in the plant."

Even the article that OP links to supports the LA Times article, rather than refuting it.


We're happy to change the title to a more accurate one, or back to the original if it's best. But we need user help to figure these things out—it's impossible to study all the articles well enough to get the nuances right.


Ok, the original title was accurate and describes what's in the article.


Per the article there is one coal power plant still active.

It's run by Argus (the sometimes good, sometimes bad company from Arrow) near San Bernadino.


Yep. LA uses a lot of power from the Intermountain plant, in Utah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermountain_Power_Plant


Titles are written by click-bait experts.


Work in the industry at the moment. The US sells lots of coal to China, where it is burned with far less regulation than it would be in the US. The coal plants I work on are secretive to the point where they do not want their name even in technical publications. Instead we say e.g. "a large coal-fired plant in the Midwest..."



China has basically ceased approving new coal plants and is taking the lead in solar innovation.


Pounds of CO2 emitted per million British thermal units (Btu) of energy for various fuels:

Coal 228.6 - 205.7

Diesel fuel and heating oil 161.3

Gasoline 157.2

Propane 139.0

Natural gas 117.0

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=73&t=11


Does this include the CO2 emitted in the process of extracting and refining diesel/gasoline? Depending on the source of the oil (Canadian Tar sands vs Saudi Arabia), its carbon footprint can vary drastically.


All of the fuels listed in the grandparent have extracting and refining costs which depend on the source.


That is true - but I believe that extraction and refining is a much bigger contributor to oil's footprint, compared to coal's. It is also far more variable.

To turn a barrel of tar sands oil into gasoline, for example, adds another ~230 pounds of CO2 to the atmosphere - in addition to the emissions from burning it. That's ~40 pounds/million BTU.

It almost costs us more energy to mine and refine tar sands oil, then we get out of burning it.


Looks good for the future of Methane Hydrate, of which undersea deposits could provide 6 centuries of power for our planet. Methane Hydrate is natural gas in a frozen water matrix.


Should those deposits start to outgas (?), due to warming oceans, we'll have to aggressively, proactively burn that methane.


Interesting idea. But its cold down there; take a lot of warming to have that problem?

Theoretically, meteor strikes may have exposed/breached a deposit sometime in history. So large releases probably happen from time to time. How would we know? What trace would these catastrophic methane releases leave in the geologic record?


...and nuclear is 0?


Almost.. the IEA puts it at 2-59 grams per kwh. Hydro at 2-49g; wind at 7-124g; and solar at 13-731g. In comparison to nat gas at 389-511g.

Hydro and nuclear are pretty much tied. And wind is a close 3rd.

see page 134: also has SO2, NOX, and a few other stats: http://www.oecd-nea.org/ndd/reports/2002/nea3676-externaliti...


Solar's at 13-731g is due to mixing a wide range of technology and calling it 'solar'. Solar thermal power plants are simply terrible designs that never really improved over time, and often include natural gas for nighttime operation.

So, in terms of installed capacity it's much closer to 13 and generally below nuclear.


Before California pats itself on the back too much here -- people should realize that the switch to natural gas has largely been driven by fracking, which has made natural gas more cost competitive.


Also, before California pats itself on the back too much here, they have been blocking nuclear and hydro for decades, both of which would have reduced their use coal.


Just how much undeveloped hydro potential do you figure for California?

The state's not water-rich to start with. Dams have significant impacts, and virtually all major waterways are already heavily managed.

Nuclear faces safety, fuel, and disposal challenges. The latter for the nex million years.

Fuel availability is ~80 years at present usage, 6 if the world relied solely on uranium-based fission.

Systemic risks of nuclear are distinctly non-negligible, and are not technologically addressable: they concern management, organisation, politics, war, economic stability, and far more.

Solar and wind fare far better on all counts.



You don't see more than 80 year supply for most materials as they have stopped looking because there is more profit in looking for minerals that don't have 80 years of known reserves. If demand rose to where current reserves would last 6 years, people would going out in droves to look for it and developing new tech to find it.


Resistance against hydro, I still understand. I don't get why putting Nuclear energy in the middle of Mojave desert is problematic. Surely, there must be ways to work around the environmental impact as many developed nations produce nuclear energy


I think most commercial nuclear reactors require craptons of cooling water because they aren't that efficient in fact. (When you use water to regulate fission, the temperature can't get much higher than ~100C.)

So, putting them in the middle of a desert might be problematic.

I wonder if there's any current commercial ones that are more efficient? Theoretically we can greatly improve efficiency by using high-temperature designs, but good luck building an unproven new design of reactor these days...


Don't most nuclear power plants require a water source around for cooling purposes?

Finding such a source in the middle of a desert might be a reason people don't build it there.


There is the Israeli nuclear research plant in the Negev desert, but presumably that doesn't require the kind of continuous cooling you need for a normal nuclear power plant.

France has been known to throttle it's nuclear power generation (they have tons) in the summer because the water in the nearby lakes that they use for cooling gets too hot.


No worries there. By the time coal is deprecated, the price of natural gas will spike, causing renewables to be deployed more quickly with utility scale battery storage.

Lot of fossil fuel generation out there that's going to be left as stranded assets.


The fuel itself (reserves in the ground) is the largest component of that "stranded asset", right?


For the exploration company? Yes. For utilities or independent generators, the generation asset itself is the largest component.

I'm unaware of anyone vertically integrated, where they own the wells, the pipelines, and the generation facility (in the US).


Isn't this last year's news? Here's energy use by state from last July:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/power-plant...

A few states use almost zero coal.


From the article: "… in a report that the agency released last week, California saw a 96% decrease in coal-fueled electric power consumption …"


They had 5 plants in 2015 and now they have 3? Did you read my article?


And the chart shows that despite falling since 2008, 2015 levels were nearly 50% down from 2014. So the decrease is accelerating.


In the article from July 2015, coal was less than 1%. What is left to accelerate?


Ultimately it is good news, although the number of agendas present when reporting energy news is amazing sometimes.

It would be interesting to find alternative uses for coal that weren't polluting. A more enlightened civilization might use the revenue from that alternate use to fund re-education and social support for people too old to learn new skills other than coal production. In that way you could humanely "close out" the era of coal use on the people whose lives were intimately tied to its existence.


> Ultimately it is good news

Yes, but if you read the article, it's dropped from 1% to 0.2% - so from a tiny fraction to an even tinier fraction, working out to a drop of 0.1 percentage point per year

So beyond the psychological frame, not much has changed.


But wouldn't letting markets allocate labor resources be a more optimal solution? Private investment can handle the re-training challenges.


In the small case I'm all for it, but when systemic changes are made to the economy I think it would be reasonable to consider helping the translation by redirecting some capital toward that realignment. The existing method of using transfer payments from the new growth to sustain the displaced resources as you wait for them to reallocate takes to long and is itself inefficient.


Private investment can handle the re-training challenges.

It could, but it won't as long as the labor market is soft.


EIA estimates that U.S. coal production in April was 46 million short tons (MMst), a 6 MMst (12%) decrease from the previous month and 29 MMst (38%) lower than in April 2015. Forecast coal production is expected to decrease by 150 MMst (17%) in 2016, which would be the largest decline in terms of both tons and percentage since data collection started in 1949. -U.S Energy Information Administration ( https://www.eia.gov/forecasts/steo/report/coal.cfm )

Coal consumption, 90% of which is in electricity generation, is down nationally.

It appears solar and natural gas are out competing coal: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cf...


There go the jobs in the middle of my home state.

... to another profession, as is how structural unemployment works in general.


Does the desire for natural gas mean they are finally going to stop burning it all off and destroying the climate in North Dakota to get to the oil?

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-dakota-gas-flaring-20140...

http://www.npr.org/2014/01/30/265396179/much-of-north-dakota...

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/north-dakota-gas-flaring-...


The same has happened in the UK I've noticed. Currently 500MW but previously today 150MW. http://gridwatch.templar.co.uk




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