I don't think the fights should be vicious, but I think the stakes are fairly high, and even though Ruby and Python are close cousins in the grand scheme of things, they really do represent profoundly different philosophies when you look more closely at the languages. It would be nice if these differences could always be discussed with civility, of course.
I use both Ruby and Python enough to appreciate that both languages generally make important tradeoffs with good intentions, but I don't always agree with the results (in either language). I also find Javascript often has an interesting relationship to both languages.
It is true that small differences can mean large conflicts, but I think Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy is a better illustration of this. The only doctrine that the two denominations disagreed on was the exact way in which the Pope is higher-ranked than the other metropolitan bishops; this plus language barriers and differences in cultural atmosphere produced something like 1500 years of mutual hostility which were only ended by John Paul II.
However, we can sometimes mistake _subtle_ differences for _small_ ones; but just as there's a substantial difference between the Mac OS and Windows, there's a substantial difference between Catholicism and Calvinism (which was the most successful form of Protestantism) -- the difference between God seeing that you went to Hell, and God sending you there. I could go into much greater detail (I count nine paragraphs in how I'd previously structured this comment), but that's the nutshell of the nutshell.
When looking at this from an atheists perspective it looks like very minor differences to me.
There's a joke about that, I looked it up:
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said “Stop! don’t do it!” “Why shouldn’t I?” he said.
I said, “Well, there’s so much to live for!” He said, “Like what?”
I said, “Well, are you religious or atheist?” He said, “Religious.”
I said, “Me too! …Are you Christian or Buddhist?” He said, “Christian.”
I said, “Me too! …Are you Catholic or Protestant?” He said, “Protestant.”
I said, “Me too! …Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?” He said, “Baptist!”
I said, “Wow! Me too!…Are you Baptist church of God or Baptist church of the Lord?” He said, “Baptist church of God!”
I said, “Me too! Are you original Baptist church of God, or are you reformed Baptist church of God?” He said, “Reformed Baptist church of God!”
I said, “Me too! Are you reformed Baptist church of God, reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist church of God, reformation of 1915?”
He said, “Reformed Baptist church of God, reformation of 1915!”
I said, “Die, heretic scum” and pushed him off.. — Emo Phillips
@jacquesm: At least from my perspective, "God wants everyone to go to Heaven" and "God wants some people to go to Hell" are further apart than "God wants everyone to go to Heaven" and "there is no God, and the universe developed through chance and emergent patterns."
Calvinism had _huge_ practical consequences -- in social policy, it's the difference between ensuring that the poor are fed and sheltered, and kicking them into the street; and you can only imagine what it meant for the laws of war...
Edit: And the joke you mention is only too recognizable, but it's more like the Catholicism-and-Orthodoxy situation, where it's a matter of tribal loyalties more than views of the world...
I thought that was originally said about college student government/politics...
Then again, programming language is a very personal choice for many, so if you insult a language, you insult the person. There aren't many polyglot programmers that are detached from their preferred language.
For me, I prefer Python, but I'm not going to blindly defend it.
I might be wrong, but I really can't mention any other group of people trolling Perl discussions.
Everyone is out trolling the Perl discussions. PHP developers hate us, Java developers hate us, Ruby developers hate us, and Python developers hate us. I think this is funny, because we generally don't hate the other languages, we just embrace and extend their good ideas for Perl. (The Perl community has come up with a few good ideas on their own, but the best ideas have been borrowed from other languages. Moose is from Smalltalk and CL; PSGI is from Python; Plack is from Ruby; Catalyst is from Java; etc. I think, in general, the stolen ideas have been improved upon in Perl; I like using Moose a lot more than I like using CLOS -- and I like using CLOS a lot.)
The only place outside of the Perl community where I can admit to liking Perl (and not be flamed) is #haskell. But everyone is nice there.
(I've even been trolled in real life over my like of Perl. I was going after some girl, who apparently had a friend that was a Java developer. Perl came up, I came up, and it was resolved "he must not be very good at programming if he prefers Perl over Java". Guess who got the girl? Not the Perl programmer.)
> PHP developers hate us, Java developers hate us, Ruby developers hate us, and Python developers hate us.
Wait. Ruby? What? Did you have a bad experience with some Rails people and decide that Ruby developers hate Perl?
As someone who loves both Perl and Ruby, I haven't seen any Perl hate from Ruby developers in general. I can't vouch for Rails people, though. There are some serious social dysfunctions in that community.
> The only place outside of the Perl community where I can admit to liking Perl (and not be flamed) is #haskell.
I haven't gotten into Haskell (yet) -- but I've never gotten any shit on the ruby-talk list for "admitting" that I like Perl.
> (I've even been trolled in real life over my like of Perl. I was going after some girl, who apparently had a friend that was a Java developer. Perl came up, I came up, and it was resolved "he must not be very good at programming if he prefers Perl over Java". Guess who got the girl? Not the Perl programmer.)
Wow. WTF?
I have gotten shit from Pythonistas in person a couple of times for liking Perl, but nothing nearly that bad -- just as I have for preferring FreeBSD over "Linux".
In general, the hackers I know dislike Java, so I haven't really had the opportunity to get treated that badly by a Java developer. Maybe I'm just lucky.
I've found quite the opposite; my experience with Python users has been consistently personable. If anything, the party line seems to be "this is the way we do things, if you like what you see, come on in, if not, no worries". I mean, this whole article is really just a troll post on Python by a Rube (that's what they're called, right?)
I love Ruby. I don't really like Python as much (Python and I have irreconcilable philosophical and code-formatting differences). I was not offended.
I was, however, saddened by the fact that almost every single time I've seen a Pythonista talk about how nice Pythonistas are, the comment has included a dig at people who use other languages like that. The probability seems to run in the 90%+ range.
the party line seems to be "this is the way we do
things, if you like what you see, come on in, if not,
no worries"
That is absolutely not the case; Python is the anti-TMTOWTDI. The Python community is very vocal and explicit about the conventions developers are expected to follow, more so than any other language I'm aware of: PEP 8, Zen of Python, non-stop critiques about whether some code is "pythonic" enough.
The Python community is very vocal and explicit about the conventions developers are expected to follow, more so than any other language I'm aware of: PEP 8, Zen of Python, non-stop critiques about whether some code is "pythonic" enough.
Yeah, that's the "this is the way we do things" part, but that's a different issue. Things like PEP-8 and a measure of how "Pythonic" something is helps make one of Python's biggest strengths, the "batteries included" easier to accomplish and easier to understand, because there is a consistent standard. Of course, not all code, even in the stdlib, is up to that standard, but it's more consistent than a lot of libraries you'll find.
The point I was making, and the difference from a lot of language communities I've seen is that there is little of this hyperbolic "That's not even possible in [insert-language-here]" nonsense. The Python programmers I tend to interact with don't really mind if you don't use Python, because at the end of the day, almost every language has the necessary features to Get Stuff Done.
Ah, I see. So what you are tying to say is that the non-stop bashing of Perl, PHP and Ruby from Python developers should be interpreted as just a friendly "if [you don't like python], no worries."
After all, one would have to be a "Rube (that's what [Ruby developers are] called, right?)" to think that Python developers aren't friendly to people who don't worship Python.
I just browsed over this entire thread, and you're by far the flamiest person here.
There are always bashers. Their existence proves nothing. The question is whether they represent the bulk of the community. It's hard to speak for an entire community, but it is certainly true that the Python community leaders are not into bashing other languages routinely.
Does 'Rube' have a negative connotation attached to it? I mean we're calling Python devs 'Pythonistas,' which I also don't necessarily associate with negative connotations. Maybe I just haven't participated in enough Python-Ruby flamewars to know all of the 'secret' lingo that's only offensive to you if you are already part of that flamewar culture?
> Indeed, this is true. It's unfortunate that so many python developers don't follow suit.
Do you have any numbers to back any of this up? Is it possible that Python just happens to have a small number of really vocal hyper-proponents that feel the need to bash everything else? Could it just be that you aren't a Python programmer so you take more offense to your language being bashed and therefore notice if more often than others?
> Does 'Rube' have a negative connotation attached to it?
Yes, it does. Rubyists are typically called Rubyists or Ruby hackers if one does not wish to insult them. Calling a Rubyist ia "Rube" would be like calling a Pythonista a "Pyker" (reference to [piker](http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/piker), definition 2).
> Maybe I just haven't participated in enough Python-Ruby flamewars to know all of the 'secret' lingo that's only offensive to you if you are already part of that flamewar culture?
There's nothing "secret" about the insulting character of the term "rube".
We don't need to look any further than this thread: 30 points on the initial Ruby/Rails-bashing rant that also insults Ruby developers, 6 points on tghw's comment that insults Ruby developers with outright name-calling. Par for the course.
Could it just be that you aren't a Python programmer
No, considering I've been using python on and off for almost a decade now.
your language
Or it could be that there is no "[my] language" and I'm just willing to call out rampant hypocrisy and language-bashing when I see it.
Honestly, I find it interesting that people assume someone doesn't use Python just because they call out Team Python on their non-stop trolling and language-bashing. "Either you're with us or against us," apparently. Big surprise.
> the non-stop bashing of [...] PHP [...] from Python developers
You lost me here. PHP is the favorite flogging-boy language of a lot of developers from a lot of different environments. Trying to peg this solely on Python developers/flamers is disingenuous. You might as well try to claim that Python developers are responsible for all of the Microsoft (and/or .Net/ASP/C#) bashing that goes on around the web.
Python is a dogmatic language. For the language, this is a good thing, helping it stay clean, simple and yet still powerful. But for the community, it breeds rabid fanboys, just like everything else that's dogmatic.
Really, now? I can't say I've ever seen dons be anything other than polite and helpful. Not to mention that he's one of the most knowledgeable Haskell programmers out there, especially on the "practical real world use" front.
I've seen one Pythonista troll the ruby-talk mailing list. I have no idea whether any Rubyists troll Python's main community venue -- but if there are any, I'm pretty sure they're probably Rails people, which really have their own, separate community.
