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Mixture of agents prevents a lot of fact fabrication.

The only reason is that they don't want the public to realise how greedy they are. They know the value they add is not worth the price difference to a lot of customers.

As many have said for years. As long as Apple is not able to explain their value to the customer, they have to rely on shady business tactics to maintain the revenue stream they became addicted to.


Having been so close to bankruptcy seemed to have tainted their behaviour, that now anything goes to protect what in the end saved them, moreso than in other companies.

No, not “moreso than in other companies” — maximizing profits is something that effectively all companies do.

The difference is that smaller companies can get away with anticompetitive behaviour but there are regulations for market leaders.

What Apple was allowed to do when they were a disrupter is different from what they are allowed to do with a dominant postion in the ecosystem.

PS Saying all companies are greedy and would abuse a market position is not a moral defense of Apple’s behaviour, it’s a defense of antitrust regulations.


Do you know any other marketplace / reseller who puts a message: "By the way, if you book directly with the provider and cut us out, it will be cheaper"?

I can fully understand Apple's position. They created the system that customers love, developers will have to pay something to get access to those customers.

Apple doesn't have to explain to customers the value. Anybody who is buying or using an iPhone today knows what they're getting.


> I can fully understand Apple's position

They want to maximize their revenue, just like any other company and there is absolutely nothing else to it.

> Anybody who is buying or using an iPhone today knows what they're getting.

You don’t get to pick and choose which features do you want and most people don’t really care.

Anybody who is buying or using an iPhone today knows what they're getting.

That’s what allows Apple to abuse their position as a quasi-monopoly (as a platform for app developers adjusted by user spending they are effectively that in multiple markets).


It's repeated again and again among hackers that Apple is a monopoly. While selling less devices than their biggest competitor. While having a much smaller install base for their OS than Android.

> They want to maximize their revenue, just like any other company and there is absolutely nothing else to it.

Oh, I had no idea.

> You don’t get to pick and choose which features do you want and most people don’t really care.

What? Iphones have been around for more than a decade, it's well known among customers how they work and there are plenty of options from other manufacturers.

Any store that can will take a cut from producers, whether that is a physical store like your local supermarket, or a digital store like Apple's.

The question is why Apple users are so much more willing to spend money on software than users of other platforms, and why hackers hate that so much? How much money can an independent or boutique developer earn from Linux or Windows users, compared to Apple users?


> While selling less devices than their biggest competitor

That doesn’t matter that much (when taking about app developers) compared to how much money they are spending. A single iPhone user in the US and other rich countries is worth a dozen of Android users in India/African countries etc.

Also even if not literally a monopoly they can effectively behave like a monopoly and abuse their position because no tech company targeting consumers can afford to not have an iOS app.

> What? Iphones have been around for more than a decade, it's well known among customers how they work and there are plenty of options from other manufacturers.

Not what I meant and not how it works. I’m using an iPhone in-spite of their abusive practices and restrictions because their other features/advantages compared to Android outweigh that in my case. It’s basically a shit sandwich…

> why Apple users are so much more willing to spend money on software than users of other platforms

Because they have more money?

> How much money can an independent or boutique developer earn from Linux or Windows users, compared to Apple users?

Yes, that exactly what I’m saying. Apple won (clearly because of the merits of their products) and now they can squeeze developers and consumers to a very high degree without any negative consequences. That’s how monopolies (of course it’s scale, Apple is not literally a monopoly, for that matter neither was Standard Oil back in 1906, they had a comparable market share to Apple these days) work regardless of how exactly they became one, they get to keep all the market surplus that would go to consumers in a more competitive market.


> Because they have more money?

I think this quote illustrates well your perspective and the general perspective of hackers here. Apple users spend more on software because they're just so dumb and don't know how to compile their apps and set up a self-hosted solution.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm very happy to spend money on quality software that I need to solve real world problems, instead of suffering with low-quality FOSS or ad supported software just to save a few bucks. I prefer saving my headache instead, so that I can tinker because I choose to, not because I have to. I think most non-enterprise software customers think the same way. They want something to solve their needs and are fine to pay a fair price for that. So they buy Apple products and later iOS/MacOS software.

If other tech companies cared at all about their product and their customers, they would do the same as Apple. But it's easier to sell to enterprise clients and spy on free users to sell ads instead.


> I think this quote illustrates > Apple users spend more on software because they're just so dumb and don't know how to compile their apps and set up a self-hosted solution

Never meant anything even remotely close to that. Apple users tend to have higher incomes and therefore can afford to spend much more than average (globally) Android users. I see absolutely nothing wrong about people spending money on quality software (the opposite really and I entirely agree with your point about ad supported and OS consumer software).

> they would do the same as Apple

Well yeah, arguably that was one of the main reasons behind their success. However I don’t see how do these things contradict each other, Apple can continue producing great products while being less abusive towards developers who have much more limited bargaining power.


My apologies for reading something into your words that wasn't there. It just sounded so dismissive to say that they spend more money because they have more money, which is an attitude I've often heard, and which isn't true.

Most Android/Windows/Linux users in the developed world (and they are billions) spend less on software than iOS/MacOS users, even though they can well afford it. Small time developers on those platforms are left to beg for donations (that never come), or bundle their software with ads and spyware that some big company pays them for. If they want to make a living on their work.

Developers serving Apple platforms are as far as I know better off reimbursement-wise than developers serving other platforms. Apple takes their cut, but until somebody voluntarily offers developers something better I think it's misguided to go against Apple.

People say that Microsoft got hit with these kind of lawsuits in the 90s, but as far as I remember, they were threatening PC hardware vendors if they offered competitor's software – which is clearly an anti-competitive measure. Not a reply to you, just a general comparison.


No, most people still do not know about how onerous the App Store rules are.

Nor how dangerous first-party services like iMessage still are, for zero-click exploits like Pegasus. The average iPhone user knows almost nothing about their device outside of what Apple directly markets to them as true.

Do you mean they don’t wan the public to know that they take 30% of sales?

Or perhaps that prices are 43% higher as a result of Apple taking their cut.

I would expect such a claim to be backed with facts.

I would expect someone who wants something from someone else to formulate a polite, specific request, and to then submit the request in a manner somewhere on the spectrum between respectfully and deferentially.

Unless I totally misunderstood, and you don't want anything, and are just expressing that the universe failed to live up to your expectations. In which case: my bad, sorry for the misunderstanding!


Where did you get the 43% number is that specific enough?

If Apple's fees cost 30% of the price, then the actual developers who make the software must raise prices to make up for Apple's fees. How much, though?

One might intuitively guess 30%, bringing $1 to $1.30. But Apple will take a cut of this price increase as well: $1.30 * 70% = $0.91, so still losing money to Apple's fees.

The actual amount they must raise the prices is (1 - (1 / 0.7)) = 0.428, or roughly 43%.

Doing this math backwards to factor out Apple's fees yields a confirmation: $1.43 * 70% ≈ $1


I want to do this, but it will cost me bandwidth and CPU cycles. What is the most efficient way to pollute these nasty AI profiteers?


The biggest problem is that a new power plant takes 10 years to build. So even if everyone agreed on the need, we’d have to wait a long time before it solves the problems we have today.

Yeah ok but at least in 10 years we’ll still need more energy. It’s not like our energy use is going down anytime soon.

Energy consumption has been surprisingly stable in "the west" over the past decades. See the US for example:

2002: 2,256 MTOE

2012: 2,152 MTOE

2022: 2,182 MTOE

(MTOE = Tonne of oil equivalent)

Source: https://yearbook.enerdata.net/total-energy/world-consumption...


Energy use is predicted to go down, while electricity usage is predicted to double or triple in western nations.

The dramatic comparative inefficiency of non-electric transport and heating makes this apparent paradox possible.


A lot of people are heavily influenced by Youtubers and other influencers who conveniently leave out the earnings they get from their Youtube views, all while selling a romantic, self sufficient dream of living in harmony with nature.

In that regard Jeremy Clarkson paints a much more realistic picture, even though that show is very over the top and mostly scripted.

I grew up on a farm and was on track to take it over. I know how hard it is. And it was not the live I wanted, so I pivoted to online marketing and web development instead.


I really like Goldshaw Farm[1]. He does yearly breakdowns how is farm performed and the reality is he could not live at all if that was his only income stream. And I think his scale is most realistic what a developer could achieve when he quit and just wanted to try to farm.

YouTube pays his bills mostly, not the farm.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD4VW0lLYjE


Goldshaw is very informative, but I think he is a bit more of a hobby farmer than a real homesteader. If you have a sophisticated system (and are willing to work hard), you can bring in substantial amounts of money on small acreage.


I was the only grandkid interested in the family farm at all and stood to inherit the whole works.

I went to college instead and work a regular job. Grandpa has been on that farm since he was born in 1922. Until he retired in 2006, he took two days off work the entire time.

No. Thank. You.


Two days off sounds bad but when you’re working for yourself and don’t have to answer some prick manager, suffer on a commute, sit hunched unnaturally at a desk, it could be much better.


I'll take my 5+ weeks off per year (with strict 40 hour maximum weeks and strong work life balance) and you can have your self-employed 2 days per 30 years = 0.06 days off per year. That's 32 minutes of personal time off per year.


When you’re working for yourself, every hour goes towards your personal equity, and you’re the boss. It hits different.


yeah instead its 12 hour days with animals that can and will try to kill you, rain or shine, in the snow, dark, and mud.

i've herded cattle on an aussie ranch as part of a working holiday. fun experience as a young man, but absolutely convinced me that IT was the right choice.


What happened on those two days? Birth of his children? Probably a broken back or some other injury is more likely tho. :)


Lol he got caught in a piece of machinery, which stripped the skin off of his arm from his elbow to his armpit. One day off for ER one for recovery.


What a trooper. They don't make people like they used to.


There are plenty of people like this. They bust their asses doing thankless work every day so people like us can argue on forums about the decline of society.


I think the perception is that humans can discover new information to question and improve what they learned, while LLM's cannot.


Human language drifts for the same reason LLM language would, but is continually reset to a sensible state by interaction with the real world.


They optimised my coding speed for sure.


This is such an obvious violation that I think Apple is testing it on purpose. They gain nothing by blocking this specific app. Maybe they just want to see what they can do.


> They gain nothing by blocking this specific app.

I dunno, I think there's an obvious thing Apple would be worried about by allowing PC emulators on iOS (iPadOS specifically): the only thing that stops an iPad Pro from being the only computer of, say, a software engineer these days, is that iPadOS doesn't function as an non-inter-app-sandboxed parallel-multitasking development platform in the way that a desktop OS does.

But a (performant) PC emulator on iPadOS would fix that. You could buy an iPad Pro with a keyboard case, boot up a Windows or Linux (or maybe even macOS) VM, and work inside that — running shells, editors/IDEs, compilers, Docker containers, etc. And then swipe back over to (less-heavyweight) iPad apps when you're just taking notes / watching videos.

Honestly, it's something I've personally wanted for a long time. Despite loving my laptop, I'd love to be able to pack only an iPad when travelling to e.g. conferences. Right now I can't, because what if prod goes down and I need to investigate + develop a critical bugfix + deploy it? If I could run a PC VM on my iPad, I could do all that and more.


Would be very funny to see someone emulating a PC on an iPad to Linux so they can use Wine to run windows apps.


Use Wine to run Dolphin, running an SNES emulator, running the Gameboy player, playing Tetris


Or more specifically, Doom implemented in Tetris.


When Nintendo sues, do they start at the top or the bottom of the stack?


Nintendo legal is massively concurrent, and sues all simultaneously.


There are public domain Tetris versions for the GB.


I don't understand this:

Would they rather someone buy a Thinkpad and run Linux on it, than someone buy an iPad and run Linux on it?

What's there to be scared of someone buying their own hardware?


Apple would rather people buy an iPad and a cheaper Mac, e.g. a Macbook Air. And many of their customers do — despite only needing the Mac for one or two things.

These customers, in my personal experience, mostly end up gravitating toward using the Mac more and the iPad less — despite often saying they enjoy using the iPad more. They try to use the iPad for more things, but when there's something they need to do on their laptop, they switch over to using it — and then forget to switch back. Eventually, they give up on the "iPad experiment", and the iPad sits there gathering dust.

But they still did buy it. And likely have had it for long enough that they can't just return it. And they might even (probably mistakenly) think they'll pick it up again someday, maybe when a new iPadOS update makes it more functional and solves their pain-points.

And that line of thinking makes Apple very, very happy. "Buying an iPad you don't end up using because you also bought a Mac" is a situation Apple emphatically does not want to help anyone avoid. In fact, they do everything they can in their advertising to subtly guide customers into bad expectations about iPadOS capabilities, so that they'll end up in that situation.


Exactly what happened to me. These bastards planned that. That’s why they’re one of the richest companies in the world, because they knew how to trip their customers into buying shit they didn’t need to buy. And pricing RAM and Storage way, way out of proportion to the cost.


IPad is great for direct manipulation, such as drawing / painting / rearranging things visually. In this regard, it far outstrips any macbooks.


And outside of a very small portion of the user base, how much of most people's time is spent in those activities?


And of those people, how many of them would prefer full-fat Photoshop on a Surface Pro or drawing tablet?


Not many; the iPad Pro + Apple Pencil Pro is considered by many to be the best-in-class drawing tablet. And the Surface Pro frankly sucks for digital illustration — it's far less responsive, with far less control. The next-best option after an iPad Pro is a Wacom pad plugged into a PC.

Also, there's no point in using Photoshop for drawing on a tablet. (It's not impossible to use it for that, but it's not what I'd call a good experience.) You really want domain-specific digital-illustration software that puts the artist in direct control of brushes, color-mixing, and layers (either by direct-manipulation gestures, or in floating palettes, ring menus, etc); and then gets everything else out of the way (or doesn't include it at all.) You use such software to draw the things you want, as separate layer-groups or images — and then, when you're done, you throw those drawings into an app like Photoshop to clean them up, put them together, and otherwise transform your "drawings" into "artwork."

If you're familiar with audio production: think of Photoshop as a DAW, and illustration as a performance. Even a solo musician doesn't touch their DAW while they're playing an instrument; the only thing they're touching is their instrument. Digital-illustration software is an instrument.


FWIW, I have both a Wacom and a Surface Pro on-hand right now. The Wacom tablet is great (unbeaten latency-wise) but the Surface Pro has an equally nice digitizer and a perfectly usable screen. I took notes on it for a few years before moving to markdown and typing everything.

The point I'm trying to make is that this artificial product category distinction people want to illustrate doesn't exist. Both of these hardware platforms can do both tasks equally well; all Apple has to do is provide both and let their customers decide for themselves. As time goes on, it feels increasingly easy to reverse-engineer Apple's design philosophy:

- Identify a problem (I need to install apps; I need a heartrate monitor; I want to draw on my Mac)

- Design a best-path solution (What if there was an app for that? What if all your vitals were monitored? What if drawing was tactile?)

- Take that solution and engineer it into an expensive auxiliary product (App Store/Developer Program; Apple Watch; Apple Pencil/iPad)

- Deny competitors market access specifically so they can't fix self-imposed limitations (Still Apple refuses to sign benign apps; Apple Health is all-or-nothing without Apple Watch, competitors are scary and can't be trusted; touchscreen Macs are "impossible" and Apple Pencil can only be made by licensing our tech)

Maybe I'm being too creative and optimistic, but are there not thousands of people on this site that would readily give up their Mac for an iPad with decent Linux support? The only person stopping people from having their cake and eating it too is Apple. And you know it's not because the iPad is in some way different from the Macbook and shouldn't have an open bootloader. It's because that would stop people from buying Macs. For the love of God, I hate Steve Jobs like the devil but I would probably go get a used iPad Pro if Apple announced they were publishing Linux drivers for it.


You have drunk the Youtuber Kool-Aid way too much. Also, quit the Apple superiority complexe.

There are plenty of professional illustrators using tools other than iPad Pros, in fact most serious ones are still using Wacoms and the likes as you mentioned. The Surfaces devices and the likes are just as competent as iPads (if not more) they just don't have the same halo effect and there are people like you spitting a lot of bullshit to keep the superiority complexe alive.

Apple would like people to see the iPad Pro as the only good illustration tool, but the truth is, considering the price and software support it's actually not a great one. Since a "real" computer is going to be needed for work before delivery, if you don't need the extreme mobility, it's pretty stupid to buy an iPad instead of a traditional drawing surface.

But it doesn't matter, since Apple doesn't sell their devices to rational people, it's all about emotional marketing so whatever...


They aren't all that scared of a small subset of geeks running Linux directly on their iPad and using that as a regular Linux-ey thing, I don't think. The number of people who want to do this is very small, and they don't expect any support for that. And that's not possible from the app store, anyway.

But they've always been scared of emulators in the IOS app stores, and the reason for that seems to be a combination of things:

1. The user experience with emulators can be awful, which is a contrast to the "It Just Works" way of doing things with IOS. This doesn't jive with the image they sell, or that they wish to support.

2. By letting anyone run real software easily on an iPad, this cuts into their sales of MacBooks. This is obviously not in their interest, since they'd rather sell two machines instead of one machine.


For point 1 I'm not sure how may people are going to fire up Window on an emulator, find it doesn't handle touch events very well, and go "iPads suck". However, there are a number of people who have gone "I'd like to do X on the iPad but there's no good way to do it, iPads suck", especially in the developer realm.

This is especially true on the "Pro" version of the iPad, where the OS feels like a major constraint on what would otherwise be a very capable device.


> find it doesn't handle touch events very well

You don't need to touch your Windows VM. The iPad Magic Keyboard cases have trackpads on them; and iPads also support Bluetooth mice.

(And a user of iPadOS VM software probably wouldn't even be trying to touch the screen to interact with the software anyway. After all, why boot up such software if not for productivity? And who would attempt productivity on an iPad without putting it into its "productivity orientation", with the iPad docked onto a keyboard case?)


You forgot #3: By letting anyone run mouse software on iPad, they have to use a stylus to operate it, which made Steve Jobs mad at Microsoft's pen computing division back in 2001.

I honestly believe this to be way more important of a reason to Apple than anything else. The point of making you buy two computers is not to get twice as much money out of you, it's to get app developers to port their apps over to UIKit and make you re-buy all your apps twice.

I tried UTM SE a while back. Using it with the Magic Keyboard was almost the Real Deal Laptop Experience, but if I ever took my iPad out of its Magic Keyboard then I'd have to use some really annoying mouse and keyboard emulation to use the same software. Apple's the kind of company that will absolutely put guns to the heads of their users to force them to not have a bad computing experience.


> They aren't all that scared of a small subset of geeks running Linux directly on their iPad and using that as a regular Linux-ey thing, I don't think.

I don't think they are worried about a few geeks running bash or docker. They should worry about Valve Software, and millions of non-geeks discovering that Steam works on iPads. Even if only a small subset of the Steam library works, that could be a collection of thousands of games going back decades that don't pay the App Store tax.

Unfettered PC emulation threatens billions of dollars of Apple revenue.


1) Things don't "Just Work" with IOS. I regularly have to help people figure out how to connect their i* to work network, install 2FA apps, find missing 2FA notifications, find freshly installed app icons..."It Just Works" if you have done it 100s of times before and know what to do. 2) That is just plain and simple user hostile behavior that is not tolerated in case of any other company except Apple by Apple users.


1. I don't have any trouble with IOS. My experience is very limited: I've got an old iPad Pro that runs the current IOS, and that I've had for a couple of years. It Just Works* -- it lets me watch dumb shit on YouTube, check the weather, and remotely operate a digital mixer, and that's all I really want from it. Previously, with a gap of about a decade, I had a minty-fresh OG iPod Touch that also Just Worked* (until it died a couple of years later during battery replacement surgery). Despite my limited experience, in both cases I've found the interface to be adequately intuitive and don't recall ever really seeking any guidance.

2. Some people like the walled garden. I'm not really amongst them, but I do tolerate the walls. (For those who absolutely abhor walls, there's rootable Android devices out there that can satisfy an itch to tinker with something in compact portable electronics. That's a lot of fun, too, but it's heading in the opposite opposite direction of Just Works.)

*: They "just work" within their limitations, which can be severe. It frustrates me that I can't install real Firefox on the iPad so I can use uBlock Origin, and it frustrated me that the iPod Touch didn't even come with the ability to install apps or even copy-and-paste text out of the box**. But in both cases, the devices behaved very well with the functions they were permitted to utilize.

**: I jailbroke the iPod Touch and went pretty far off the reservation with it (adding a clipboard, installable apps, multitasking, and a useful userland) because that was fun for me at that time, but by no means did I have to do any of that -- it was a very fine touchscreen music player with 802.11 and a web browser all by itself without any of that kind of help, and that's pretty much what it was promised to be able to do. And that was a long time ago; during the gap, I'd forgotten more about IOS than I ever knew.


I would have also thought:

3. It lets users get software on to the ipad without going through the App Store (thereby escaping apples ability to clip the ticket on the way through).


iSH is already on the App Store and lets you run x86 Linux apps.

My guess is that the thing Apple is actually objecting to is graphical user output, specifically mouse software being utilized on a touchscreen. UTM (and iDOS) does that, iSH only gives you a terminal. Terminal software is touch-friendly, so it's allowed, even though iSH has to do the same threaded code dance UTM SE does.

(And of course there's also a-Shell which runs WASM/WASI binaries in Safari...)


My understanding was that iSH is the same kind of thing that e.g. Swift Playground for iPadOS is: both ship with an internal userland of binaries, including a compiler toolchain, embedded into the app (that Apple can audit); and both allow code to be compiled and executed locally. But in neither case can you download and install arbitrary non-Apple-audited third-party packages into the sandbox.

This is why iSH calls itself a "Linux-like environment." There's no package manager! If Apple allowed it, iSH would almost certainly just be a wrapped-up Debian VM. But it's not. (And this is why iSH has always been considered a toy by people wanting to do real software development, rather than being something anyone would recommend you use as part of your workflow.)


False. I've been using iSH before it became available on the App Store. Downloading and executing arbitrary binaries is always possible. Just go install iSH and run any command-line binary to see for yourself.

The reason it's considered a toy is because of the sheer number of bugs in its Linux syscall simulation layer as well as in its implementation of Forth-style threaded code, not because of a package manager. After all its GitHub page says "This code is known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects, and reproductive harm."


iSH has nothing stopping you, the user, from wgetting arbitrary scripts or binaries and running them in the VM[0]. It also exposes a file provider so you can drop arbitrary x86 binaries into it if you so choose.

Also, iSH does have a package manager. It used to actually be modified to pull packages from the App Store but now they use a separate server. I don't remember if it's the Alpine Linux package repo or a custom thing for iSH.

[0] In fact, this was the excuse Apple used to ban it a few years ago


> iSH has nothing stopping you, the user, from wgetting arbitrary scripts or binaries and running them in the VM[0]

"Nothing stopping you" in the same sense that there's nothing stopping someone from using a sequence of specific gamepad button-presses to turn Super Mario World into Flappy Bird.

In vulnerability-exploitation terms, sure, the attack surface is there.

But in "would anyone actually spend time doing this" terms: no. The advantages don't outweigh the labor costs. (Especially if you're doing this for work, in anger, and you want to install an app to let you solve a problem right now by popping open a Linux terminal, and installing all the packages you need — including some arbitrary non-packaged SDKs that depend on dev-dependencies from specific known Linux flavors.)

Mind you, in theory, someone could make it easier for everyone else to do this, by writing a bootstrap script that wgets a bunch of stuff and effectively turns your iSH environment into e.g. Debian. But nobody has done this.

Why? I can't say for sure, but I suspect it's precisely because the iSH "sandbox" isn't actually a VM containing a Linux kernel, but rather an older technique — I think involving a userland of binaries compiled to use Darwin libraries; or maybe more likely, a userland linked to some Linux-on-XNU virtualization layer (custom libc, libresolv, etc.) And that's just not a "flavor" of Linux that you can find Debian packages for, or even third-party APKs for. Even if you built up your own apt base-packages repo to allow debootstrap to work, that wouldn't magically enable you to then find install deb packages from arbitrary apt repos that weren't compiled for the iSH "arch".

And I think that iSH continuing to exist on iPadOS, but persisting in doing this complex kind of virtualization rather than switching over to being "just VM software hard-coded to use a specific Linux VM", is perhaps on purpose. I'm guessing that Apple wouldn't allow "just a Linux VM" on the App Store any more than they allow UTM — again, precisely because it would unlock the capability to efficiently utilize arbitrary third-party packages, and thereby to actually use the iPad "in anger" for software-development business productivity. It would be "enough" of a development environment that some businesses might consider buying their employees iPads instead of Macs. And Apple really wants to avoid that.

> Also, iSH does have a package manager. It used to actually be modified to pull packages from the App Store but now they use a separate server. I don't remember if it's the Alpine Linux package repo or a custom thing for iSH.

It's a semi-custom thing for iSH, in that it's a custom "arch", with all the packages containing binaries compiled for the iSH virtualization layer. So you can't switch over/add on any third party repo; binaries from ordinary arm64 APKs wouldn't run. Third parties would need to create an iSH-arch release of their package specifically. And AFAIK there's no published infrastructure to enable third parties to do that.

In essence, though, the packages in this repo are still a "part of" the app. Despite being hosted on a third-party server, those packages still have to be signed — and I have a strong feeling that Apple, not the iSH dev, holds those signing keys. So Apple, not the iSH dev, gets final say over what APKs end up available in the iSH userland. (And that's why those APKs haven't been updated in a while — the iSH dev likely has to go back-and-forth with Apple when pushing out updates to their own repo — just as if they were publishing a new version of the app.)


If you're curious, iSH's source is public: https://github.com/ish-app/ish

You're correct that there is no Linux kernel emulation. They went with reimplementation for that. However, the userland is very much emulated x86 binaries. You can even compile your own C code inside iSH and run it. When you syscall, control passes from the threaded code[0] interpreter into the Linux reimplementation.

The reason why they aren't shipping Debian is that the threaded code technique being used as a JIT substitute in both iSH and UTM SE is far too slow to run a full Debian derivative. Believe me, I tried installing Ubuntu on UTM SE and it took literal hours and flattened my iPad battery in the process. iSH uses Alpine Linux because it's very lightweight[1].

As far as I'm aware there's no secret deal with Apple to lock iSH down. The only limitations I've ran into have to do with MySQL, which wants unaligned atomics, which you can't do on ARM64 without compromising the performance of the emulator. I actually had a discussion with the developer of iSH about this and put in a PR to make MySQL stop crashing iSH.

[0] return-oriented programming

[1] So lightweight it doesn't even ship anything GNU, making it one of the few genuine "Linux distros" with no slash or plus or "I would just like to interject"


iSH does allow you to download packages from the Alpine package repo, but they maintain their own mirror. The only issue is that they haven't updated it in a while, so its stuck at Alpine 3.14, and there's no (at least straightforward) option to upgrade to the later versions or to Alpine edge. I haven't yet tried updating the /etc/apk/ files to make Alpine upgrade though.


This isn't real "arbitrary package downloading", though — Apple still audits all the code that goes into these repos (which is why they can't just keep them up-to-date.) It's essentially just offloading of some of the app's packaged code into separate "DLC" modules, to make the base app download more lightweight.

> I haven't yet tried updating the /etc/apk/ files to make Alpine upgrade though.

I would highly suspect that this wouldn't work.

Maybe it would have in some prior version, back when there was the technical barrier of it being very hard to cross-compile Linux binaries for arm64.

But I would guess, upon the popularization of things like the Raspberry Pi, that Apple required the developer of iSH to modify the version of apk(1) that ships with the tool to only work with APKs that have been signed by Apple.


You can already achieve the same workflow with Shadow PC, even though you need a permanent low latency network connection.


Sure, you can... but you never would.

The whole point of an adult owning an iPad as a separate second device (besides using it as a drawing tablet or as a touch-control surface for professional production apps) is that it's a lightweight and more "rugged" portable computer than a laptop is, focused on enabling consumption and light computing tasks in situations where you either would worry about bringing a laptop, or just wouldn't care to deal with bringing a laptop.

The comparative advantage of an iPad over a laptop is found by just throwing it in your bag when you're going "out" and not planning to do work, and then pulling it out: in a coffee shop; at a park; on a beach; on a bus/train/plane; etc. Into, in other words, exactly the sorts of situations where you don't have a "permanent low latency network connection."

Any environment where relying on a remote desktop would make sense, is also an environment where the iPad has no comparative advantage. If you're in such an environment constantly, you'd just buy a laptop and never even consider an iPad!


Based on the horror stories I've heard about App Store reviews, this might literally just be a part of their review org that's not up to date on third-party EU app stores applying the wrong set of rules (or for that matter, any type of rules at all).

Doesn't make it any better, of course.


It's a type of apophenia.


More like the garden of forking paths, the look-elsewhere effect and data dredging.


As opposed to the forking of garden paths, the whereelse-look effect, and dreading dating


Doesn't really matter. If it's "a drop in the bucket", everyone in the company will think of potential savings in other areas as "a drop in the bucket". This means the cost reduction targets will never be reached. And when employees see and hear this, you'll start to notice it in their productivity as well.


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