First, I should mention that I'm glad to see this dismissive and negative comment voted to the top. I was starting to worry that HN was losing its edge.
Next, you mention:
> Yet it's a blazing success in the CMS space, because of 3 things that are insanely overlooked by other CMS developers :
- Ease of installation
- It runs on a minimal PHP/Apache/Mysql setup (cheap hosting)
- It has a great backward compatibly, unlike other solutions that break everything with each major version.
The actual, true and documented reason that WordPress has become a blazing success in the CMS space is the ease of use of the backend administration console. This comes from developer and client feedback in poll after poll of WordPress users and developers.
Regarding:
> If one compares with Drupal for instance, I mean with Drupal, a designer can go really really far without writing a single line of PHP code, aside from a few tags for templates(but it's really light). You have views, CCK and a lot of handy stuff.
I've heard Drupal developers themselves actually look to WordPress's method of having the option of handling these things in code/configuration as a net positive. It's trackable and portable.
--
I've got to ask. If a builder of websites was looking for something that wasn't horrible and built by smart people, which one would that be?
I was about to point this out exactly. I used to do client training for a small web dev shop on everything from Google Adwords and/or Analytics to Joomla and Drupal. WordPress' admin was head and shoulders above the rest in terms of ease of use. I've always thought that was the keystone of its success.
For some of the websites I have had to maintain in Joomla, it would be much more efficient for the company if I converted to Wordpress and the writers use that.
Wordpress is easy to use. With plugins, such as advanced custom fields, you can do even more. I've impressed many clients with how easy to use the "website's CMS" in turn around times they have never experienced before.
The code is shocking. The plugin architecture is, well, not really designed at all. Theme design the same. It's just impossible to match it with the number of extensions, the ease of use and my development speed as a result.
> It's just impossible to match it with the number of extensions
It's almost precisely because there's very little uniformity between anything.
It's often much more efficient to just install a new wordpress, migrate some content over and start 'fresh' than it is to modify an existing theme with new functionality; just find a different theme that does what you want and migrate your content and images over to that.
That said, I seem to remember drupal's CCK impressing me some time ago - if that was a default option (IIRC at the time it was a separate plugin) that might have done more for Drupal's "configurability ease" story early on. But.. I may be misremembering with rose-colored glasses.
CCK has been part of Drupal core since version 7 (2011). Now simply known as "fields". Fields+views is simply fantastic compared to what WordPress - including its plugins - gives you. (Views will by the way be in Drupal 8 core.)
In my experience the problem with Drupal is that on the one hand it's too customizable, and on the other it will never beat a proper code-based framework in actual ease of customization.
Because it's so customizable, it's admin interface is too complex for many users. It has to be to be as customizable as it is. And to get a site going you often need to do a whole bunch of work up-front: configuring views, creating content types, taxonomies, rules, workflows, etc. This is often not needed with Wordpress because you just pick a theme, dump in a few plugins if necessary, and it 'works'.
On the other hand, if you really do need all that customization, you're often better off with a proper framework like Ruby on Rails. You can build features in code rather than clicking around the CCK/Fields/Views interfaces, and keep them and other configuration in version control. Most importantly, if you're capable of building complex views and workflows in Drupal, you probably have the ability to do so in code as well. And the latter is generally better in every way if you are capable of it.
Drupal strikes me as the kind of thing that looks good on paper, and that project managers would like, because in theory it can be customized by anyone, and in theory you can build anything you need with it, all without writing code!
In practice, however, you end up paying a lot to get Drupal developers/consultancies to fix whatever mess you're left with. And what do most of these shops do? Use things like the Features module to store everything in code/configuration files, which kind of goes against the whole point of using Drupal in the first place.
The end result is that nobody is really happy, other than perhaps the Drupal consultants who happen to know the ins and outs of the crufty framework/CMS hybrid, and can charge a premium for their knowledge of the dark internals of Drupal.
> I've got to ask. If a builder of websites was looking for something that wasn't horrible and built by smart people, which one would that be?
I hope he doesn't reply NodeJS/Express/Ghost cos the corporate site and blog of Strongloop (main nodejs core contributors and express mantainers) is built with wordpress... And with django and rails core devs we could have another surprise... Who knows...
> I've got to ask. If a builder of websites was looking for something that wasn't horrible and built by smart people, which one would that be?
Looking for one CMS or platform that can fit every kind of website seems strange to me. It'd be sort of like recommending a TV-DVD-DVR combo unit to both your mother who just wants to watch some TV, and to your developer friend who wants a high-performance gaming display.
I've worked primarily with Drupal for the past 8 years. But the clients tend to have very complex needs, including multiple roles and workflows applied to varying content types.
If a client were to come to me and want a blog or a simple brochure site that will be edited by no more than a couple marketing staff, I will tell them Wordpress might be a better option.
Wagtail is looking really, really good. It runs on Django, which is a turn-off for some, but in terms of a friendly, dynamic CMS for editors, it’s shaping up really well.
I agree with you. Our agency (25-30 staff, New Zealand based) recently moved to Wagtail as our preferred CMS. We had contemplated cloud-based solutions (Contentful, Prismic), but a key requirement for many of our clients is to run the solution on their own infrastructure.
The response from our customers (both editors and I.T. teams) has been really positive. For us, Wagtail strikes a nice balance of editor happiness and developer pragmatism.
Since making the move mid-2014, we've implemented Wagtail websites for a bank, an NGO, and some of our private-sector customers. We've built a directory of wagtail websites and developers over at http://madewithwagtail.org/.
It's worth noting that the community is very helpful, and the module ecosystem is growing. There's an API, a static site generator, and a bunch of third-party field types for the editor. Torchbox, Wagtail's developers, are generous with their time and expertise, and we've been able to contribute back to the platform in meaningful ways. A big +1 from me.
> I've got to ask. If a builder of websites was looking for something that wasn't horrible and built by smart people, which one would that be?
As far as WordPress-contenders go, I think OctoberCMS looks very promising. It's dynamic like WordPress, but it natively supports a Git/SVN workflow, so there's less "behind the scenes magic" going on.
> It is a nightmare to keep Drupal updated and ensure that nothing is broken.
Except in very rare cases, I've only found that to be the case for websites I've inherited that were built by someone that didn't know how to build a site in Drupal.
Firstly, I agree with your firstly - too much nicey nicey is a bit boring.
Secondly, I agree with the OP. In fact I am fairly sure most of HN does because we look at something like Apple where the clear winner is the one who took the time to build the best technology and product together. And yet when we look at poor technology still achieving market dominance we realise something is off kilter - the market signals are not working correctly.
It does matter that the underside of the stone is painted too.
Next, you mention:
> Yet it's a blazing success in the CMS space, because of 3 things that are insanely overlooked by other CMS developers : - Ease of installation - It runs on a minimal PHP/Apache/Mysql setup (cheap hosting) - It has a great backward compatibly, unlike other solutions that break everything with each major version.
The actual, true and documented reason that WordPress has become a blazing success in the CMS space is the ease of use of the backend administration console. This comes from developer and client feedback in poll after poll of WordPress users and developers.
Regarding:
> If one compares with Drupal for instance, I mean with Drupal, a designer can go really really far without writing a single line of PHP code, aside from a few tags for templates(but it's really light). You have views, CCK and a lot of handy stuff.
I've heard Drupal developers themselves actually look to WordPress's method of having the option of handling these things in code/configuration as a net positive. It's trackable and portable.
--
I've got to ask. If a builder of websites was looking for something that wasn't horrible and built by smart people, which one would that be?