Yep. JWZ used to say that Linux is only free if you don't value your time.
OS X has many merits on this front, but since 10.3 I've found that the first few dot releases of OS X have the same caveats often enough (both in terms of bugs/hazards and in terms of gratuitous UI "progress") that it usually seems better to wait past .x.4/5.
Now there's this, of course.
Since the problem showed up in 2011, maybe I should go back to Snow Leopard; I can't think of a single valuable change to OS X since then...
> JWZ used to say that Linux is only free if you don't value your time.
My reply to that has always been that Windows is only $300 if you don't value your time. (Preserving archaic cost of Windows to match JWZ quote.)
The implication that the one system is free and time-consuming and the other moderately in price but not time-consuming is entirely false. At the time, for many requirements, configuring and administering a Windows machine would have been more time-consuming than for Linux. It's also glossing over the fact that you can't horizontally scale your $-per-cpu/server solution once you do have the configuration worked out, without going back to the well for more money.
This amusing and glib quote also deliberately glosses over the "freedom" part of free software, which is essential. For example, I wonder if Google would exist today if not for a free unix workalike.
>The implication that the one system is free and time-consuming and the other moderately in price but not time-consuming is entirely false.
Haven't found that to be the case. And I'm an old UNIX hat, using SUN OS, HP UX et al in the early nineties and Linux from around 1998. My two observations:
1) Linux, even the most modern distro like Ubuntu, is a huge time sync for anyone that's not just content to browse the web and check mail in a system setup for them.
2) More users that we think are in that category (besides the proverbial "grandparents" perhaps).
You got a video from your wedding you need to edit? Might or might not work. You got a hobby that requires you to use a specific peripheral (like a soundcard) or software? Do you feel lucky? You got a new phone you need to sync? Prepare for an adventure...
1. "I need to do X in Linux." Web search for software.
2. Try to install it. Find out I need Gnome 3.44 and I'm not running Gnome at all.
3. Find something else. This doesn't seen Gnome.
4. I try to install it. Wait, I need a newer version of a library.
5. I grab the latest version of that library. Wait, idiot, that version is TOO NEW!
6. So I find the exact version and install it and oh son of a cow now everything is broken.
And at each step there's a different sub-community telling me I'm a complete idiot. ("Why don't you use Gnome?" "Why don't you use package manager X?" "Why the fuck are you using that package manager???!")
Same thing when people say if you're not the customer, you're the product. That is a logical fallacy because you are still a product even if you pay for the software.
The point is when you include your time your comparing ~10k products and there purchase price is a rounding error, not that Linux is inferior because it's free.
Linux desktop is and has been second rate for a long long time. Turns out unless there are corporate sponsors paying for development, open source software sucks. The OSS community is pretty much in denial about that.
That's funny, because I haven't managed to find a desktop OS that is up to par with Linux for me. Preferences may vary, but second rate in your book is the only viable contender in mine. Also turns out that Linux does in fact have corporate sponsors, like oracle, red hat, etc. so I'm not sure I follow. Is closed source software top notch without corporate sponsorship?
The sad truth is that most software sucks, regardless of the license, there's just a lower barrier to entry, use, and discoverability with OSS so it's more visible. At least with OSS we can fix the issues instead of just accepting the suckage.
After a year I find the only advantage of OSX are browser with touchpad gesture experience and windows edge handling. Haven't tried any distro ever since switching to MBP, wayland might have a better chance of replicating the experience. Hoping for the camera driver to be done.
In Linux everything else is better, fuller implementation of base tools, customizability, no crap like /var/folders..
This is entirely subjective; it is not a wise comment to make because it is better FOR YOU, not for everyone. For me, I liked the configurability in Linux desktop land but there comes a time when you want to sit in your office and get stuff done instead of spending all the time moving the furniture around and decorating; OSX doesn't let you do any decorating or move the furniture, so you're forced to do work (to some extent).
I daily use Linux, yet my day-job is to write software on OSX and Windows, so I get to use every system every day. They're all pretty much a muchness.
No, it's saying both are great but Linux constant desktop change and rewriting of underlying systems to break upgrades between OSes isn't for me at the moment (as a desktop system). It may be great for someone else though.
I used to find Linux desktop second rate a few years ago but adopting it again recently I've found Gnome 3 better than OSX in many ways, at the very least comparable. Plus Arch Linux has been incredibly stable whereas in the past it also used to break often.
Funny, I'm watching a talk about issues with software quality on free software right now. Perhaps some members of the community are in denial, but not all of them.
> JWZ used to say that Linux is only free if you don't value your time.
Used to say? How long ago was that?
Ubuntu and many other distros are incredibly easy and effortless to use. I know devs using apple products who spend more time mucking about with brew and other tools trying to accomplish things that are very easy to do on the most popular linux distros.
I prefer and run Linux. However, troubleshooting Linux issues, even on Ubuntu is a pain in the ass. The fact that Google's page rank favors older stable pages in search results is a factor. A forum post from 2004 is not the best source of information in regards to dual monitors (and xrandr). 2007 instructions for changing the default boot will be based around Grub. I shouldn't adjust ~/.bash_login in 14.10 despite what the internet says. I should use the configuration tool.
My point is that Ubuntu is complex [as is Windows] and when something doesn't run quite right, the right answer is usually hard to find and hard to recognize because it will be embedded in a culture of highly technical cross referencing. The tradeoff for going down the rabbit hole is that Linux is really powerful and flexible.
I'm loving me some Xmonad this week, but I had to root around in xkb and xmodmap and write a little haskell and read about out how to switch layout engines in Ubuntu [and then translate that into xfce based Ubuntu Studio]. It's non-trivial and requires reading stuff on the Arch Linux Wiki. Ubuntu isn't really self contained in the way Windows is.
That's exactly the sort of situation I am talking about. When there is a problem with some piece Ubuntu's ecosystem, the answer is "It's not Ubuntu's fault, RTFM for <other software>."
Knowing that information about Ubuntu goes out of date and that changing the search criteria helps: [1] doesn't make Ubuntu less complex [2] prevents it from being as user friendly as Windows for a broad audience.
I agree with the UI "progress". Lion and Mountain Lion were the biggest changes for me; Mavericks and Yosemite are alright to my eyes (although they took some getting used to).
I have a USB disk with Snow Leopard on it that I can boot on my work's 2008 Mac Pro but that kernel panics on my 2012 MacBook Pro due to the i7 "from the future" according to Snow Leopard. It's a pity because it'd make a really great test system (I would like to check that my software runs on 10.6 OK).
Does anyone know of a way of booting Snow Leopard from disk inside a VM without many kernel kext kerfuffles? Parallels tells me that I stink if I try and install OSX inside it (I have the regular DVD, not the server edition)
Not knowing how to operate a server, I have to assume it's harder and you have to know everything it does and the CLI to use it. Not the same for mint or any other pre-packaged distros.
The largest server farms on earth are all run by administrators who are extremely well paid for their time. Linux isn't free for the companies who hire them.
"Linux isn't free for the companies who hire them"
Actually, Windows isn't free for the companies who hire them. And you need to hire a lot more Windows admins than Linux admins if you want to keep your server farm running. But Windows admins are cheaper than Linux/Unix admins, so the phb can crow about that.
With XP this was valid, but from Windows 7 onwards you don't need to do it anymore unless you actually want to play a game - the majority of users would never need to at all.
FWIW, 10.10.0 for me was perfect. 10.10.1 broke my wifi. Anytime the computer woke up from sleep, I'd have to reset the wifi card so it could find my access point.
After 10.10.2 came out, I got my second-ever full computer lock-up. I've had the same OS image since 10.5 (migrated and upgraded multiple time, obviously) and this was the second time my computer required a hard reboot. And this was while watching a video in the Steam client. I was in awe. A video forcing me to do a full reboot? Brought back memories of Windows ME.
While "upgrading" to 10.10.3, my computer failed to reboot itself. It just sat there, black screen, with a little spinner, for about 2 hours. Hard reboot, everything is back to normal. For now.
I fully expect 10.10.4 to actually destroy my hard drive at this point, as well as cause my monitor to spontaneously get 30-40 dead pixels.
Sucky part is, I feel I have no alternative.
Windows is out of the question after seeing what a factory OEM image comes with nowadays. I'm not giving them money and spending 2 days formatting/reinstalling/seeking out drivers on slow Taiwanese servers just to make a half-usable computer. And then, after all that, spend another 2 days installing various adware infested shitware to get a fricking PDF viewer. And don't get me started on getting a half-decent dev environment going. Ugh.
Linux is almost there. It's a crap shoot for me, unless it's running in a VM. I never know which kernel update will fix my trackpad/break my sound/wifi and which will fix the wifi, break suspend, fix sound, but break xrandr or some other archaic XWindows-related technology.
>Windows is out of the question after seeing what a factory OEM image comes with nowadays.
Fair play. Research the manufacturer's policy if you're buying pre-built. If you build your own desktops, this is not an issue.
>I'm not giving them money and spending 2 days formatting/reinstalling/seeking out drivers on slow Taiwanese servers just to make a half-usable computer.
When's the last time you actually installed drivers on a fresh Windows install? I will concede this used to be the case, but nowadays the whole process is much more streamlined. Microsoft has made progress on supporting a lot of hardware drivers via Windows Update. Intel also has a great driver update tool that will scan your system and make recommendations.
>And then, after all that, spend another 2 days installing various adware infested shitware to get a fricking PDF viewer.
2 days is rather exaggerated. Most browsers display PDF. If you absolutely need to read a PDF, Foxit Reader is free, as in beer. Yes, you'll have to uncheck some boxes to avoid their bundled software. Big deal.
>And don't get me started on getting a half-decent dev environment going. Ugh.
Yeah, windows isn't great for a lot of developers' needs. You really could have just left your argument at this rather than spouting off the rest of that FUD.
I use Linux, OS X, and Windows all on a regular basis. They have their strengths and weaknesses, like any other products.
>If you absolutely need to read a PDF, Foxit Reader is free, as in beer.
You're actually proving his point : on Windows something as basic as reading PDFs (yes you "absolutely" need that in 2015) requires specific knowledge of obscure names like "Foxit Reader".
I'm not even going into annotating that PDF or adding your signature to it then.
The same goes for : an office suite, a file manager with decent previewing+smart search capabilities, something that quickly resizes/converts your pictures, great photo editing/cataloging software, video editing software, music editing software, e-mail client, a comprehensive development environment (1)
All of the above, which covers almost all areas of what people actually use computers for, comes as standard on OS X
(1) Pages/Numbers/Keynote, Finder+Spotlight, Preview (also your answer for annotating PDFs btw), iPhoto/Photos, iMovie, Garageband, Mail, Unix CLI/XCode
> Yes, you'll have to uncheck some boxes to avoid their bundled software. Big deal.
Hate to say it in troll-ish way but : everyone but lifelong Windows users has higher standards than this.
In fairness to Windows (and I can't believe I'm defending it because I happen to hate the platform!), bundling software is exactly what got Microsoft into trouble in previous years (Internet Explorer, MSN Messenger, Windows Defender, etc).
Hopefully the package manager in Windows 10 will offer up a happy medium between expected software being easily available, and 3rd parties not being pushed out of the market place.
> In fairness to Windows (and I can't believe I'm defending it because I happen to hate the platform!), bundling software is exactly what got Microsoft into trouble in previous years (Internet Explorer, MSN Messenger, Windows Defender, etc).
Except that bundling itself is not what got Microsoft in trouble. Having a monopoly, and then taking a coordinated series of actions relating to conditions of sale, bundling, and other steps to extend that monopoly into other markets and to eliminate threats to the monopoly -- with evidence, including fairly explicit documentary evidence from senior decision-makers at Microsoft -- that that was the intent of the action is what got Microsoft in trouble.
They got in trouble under anti-monopoly laws, not anti-bundling laws.
It's the same thing. If you don't have a monopoly then it's a feature, if you do have a monopoly then it's anti competitive.
I do agree that Microsoft did a whole boat load of other, really down right despicable, business practices as well. But in the MSN Messenger and Defender cases it was purely about shipping their own products preinstalled in Windows when competitors weren't included.
I guess you're right that my wording was perhaps a little too vague though. But my point was that when it comes to software bundling, Microsoft are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Or maybe it requires specific knowledge of obscure names like Adobe Reader. Or did I miss something and Adobe started charging for Reader once there were double - digit numbers of free alternatives including those built into the browsers?
Heck, do Chrome or Firefox actually register with the system to handle PDFs? Wouldn't surprise me if they did.
"When's the last time you actually installed drivers on a fresh Windows install?"
This christmas. Building a new desktop for the first time in years. Bought high quality everything - Asus MB, Intel Quad core CPU, corsair memories etc. a fun and smooth experience.
I also bought Win 8.1 Pro, setup the machine for dual boot and then proceeded to install Win followed by Xubuntu. Gave me a good perspective on the state of the OSes.
Win install took much longer time, did not detect the AMD Radeon R9 card nor the Intel Eth interface on th MB. Or a lot of the peripherals. Using the supplied driver CD from Asus solved most of these, but not the GPU. To this day Win complains about some peripheral that it can't detect.
Xubuntu install was faster, smooth and did automatically detect all peripherals including Eth and GPU. And SW install using SW Center and Synaptic just works.
The Just Works used to be the perceived advantage of Win, and that Linux meant issues with drivers and fiddling with downloads from weird sites and manual builds.
It seems the world has flipped, mainly due to Linux progressing while Win really hasn't. Apart from the Metro/Modern interface that is there as well as the classic and you (read: I) end up being transferred between them.
> When's the last time you actually installed drivers on a fresh Windows install?
On this very box, I bought a 8.1 pro license, and had to install drivers for my GPU (ATI r9), along with various other tidbits, which I've now forgotten. Oh, yeah, my usb sound card.
Granted, I needed to install the closed source drivers on the Linux side, but it was easier (enable non-free, aptitude install ...) -- and the soundcard worked out of the box.
At least the network card worked this time around on Windows (at least as far as I remember). So the only real hassle was that I needed a windows install from which to build the usb install stick. Thankfully I still dual-boot my laptop, so I could make the install image there.
http://www.nliteos.com helps massively when installing all the Java / Flash / browsers / anti-malware / other stuff you need on Windows. The Taiwanese driver thing is still real; windows may ship drivers and have some via windows update, but they probably won't be the newest (or even newest certified).
Don't forget about the 4 hours, 10 reboots, 3 blue screens, and reinstalling your video card drivers twice of windows updates!
>Fair play. Research the manufacturer's policy if you're buying pre-built. If you build your own desktops, this is not an issue.
I can build my own desktop, but I can't build my own laptop. I use laptops exclusively for work.
>When's the last time you actually installed drivers on a fresh Windows install?
Less than year ago on my girlfriend's VAIO laptop, actually. Windows 7.
>Microsoft has made progress on supporting a lot of hardware drivers via Windows Update. Intel also has a great driver update tool that will scan your system and make recommendations.
Yes, it mostly works, and I'm aware of it, which is why I boldly told my girlfriend I'd take me "an hour or so" to "fix" her laptop issues. Famous last words. And I wasn't exaggerating about "slow Taiwanese servers" - I'm talking less than 100kb/sec transfer speeds. Welcome to 1996.
>2 days is rather exaggerated. Most browsers display PDF. If you absolutely need to read a PDF, Foxit Reader is free, as in beer. Yes, you'll have to uncheck some boxes to avoid their bundled software. Big deal.
It is a big deal, to me. I don't like being treated like an idiot, being on the look-out for hidden toolbars and spyware every time I double-click "setup.exe". Am I capable of doing it? Yes. Do I want to bother, for a fricking PDF viewer or a java runtime? Absolutely no way, never again. BTW, 19/20 people seem to just leave the default check-boxes checked, since they don't understand what they're being asked and just want a fricking PDF viewer.
And Foxit IMO is a PITA. Comes with its own auto-updater too. I have never seen a PDF viewer needing so many automatic updates, so often; big ones, too.
Why can OS X come with a nice, bundled, PDF viewer, and the capability to export to PDF from everywhere, and in Windows-land, I'm forced to install either spyware or shit-ware? Why? Why is Windows still stuck in 1997 in this regard?
>Yeah, windows isn't great for a lot of developers' needs. You really could have just left your argument at this rather than spouting off the rest of that FUD.
FUD? I deal with Windows issues from relatives on a weekly basis. What FUD? Am I imagining all of these issues? Spyware and adware infested boxes that come to a crawl as soon as the poor sap has more than 2 Chrome windows open because the OEM decided that 2 GB is enough for Windows 7 and also installed their own "Media Center Experience" which starts up on boot and is written in .NET WPF, eating whatever RAM there's left? That one wasn't on the VAIO, it was on her previous HP laptop, but point still stands.
Yeah, maybe for a power user who built their own computer from scratch and did a clean install and carefully vetted every package as it was installed, sure, yeah nice experience. I have a Windows gaming box that is super lean and mean and it took a lot of effort to get it to this state.
But I still find myself scratching my head in disbelief every time a windows user tells me they need a new computer cause their existing one "just got real slow lately" even though they never touched the OS. And I know why it's slow too, I know before I even open it, dreading what I'm going to see in the notification area.
P.S. She's a very happy OS X user now, FWIW. One HP and one VAIO laptop later and another Microsoft ex-customer never coming back.
None of your complaints are about Windows. They're all, almost universally, about OEM and third-party shovelware. You want to avoid OEMs trashing your computer? Don't pretend this is about a lack of choice, or about Microsoft being stuck in the past. It's about you being ignorant of your options, or ignorant of the ecosystem. Buy a Signature Series machine from Microsoft.[1] No crapware, no bundled "features" or "trials". You can also go buy rebranded-Clevo-hardware built by one of their partnered system builders. These machines also aren't full of crapware, if you pick a decent system builder. Vizio, by the way, also refuse to fill their laptops with crapware. On the other hand, anyone who owns a music streaming service is going to bundle their music streaming service.
As for PDFs, Windows 8 and up come with a PDF viewer since, y'know, two and a half years ago when it was released. Did you miss that? Granted the default PDF viewer is a Modern App, but it works, and it works reasonably well. I use it regularly to dock a PDF on half of my monitor while I work on something else on the other side. Office, by the way, will read and write PDFs just fine, if you're after a more solid office-like product to do it. In case you're about to complain that Office is too pricey, LibreOffice will do the same. If an office-suite is not your speed, Sumatra PDF exists, and is free, open, has no bundling, and is available in a portable flavour.
Again, this is not Microsoft's fault. It is yours. No one is stuck in 1997 but you. You know what it requires to not be stuck in 1997? Any sort of intellectual curiosity at all.
> FUD? I deal with Windows issues from relatives on a weekly basis. What FUD? Am I imagining all of these issues? Spyware and adware infested boxes
See, you're doing it again. You're not dealing with "Windows issues", you're dealing with issues on Windows boxes, caused by non-Windows problems. These problems involve things like "my computer illiterate family really believed there was a Nigerian prince sending them email," they're not problems that Microsoft has introduced, and they're not problems that Microsoft CAN solve. Stupid people do stupid things, and one of those things is double-click PORNVIAGRA.EXE.
This annoys me so much because you are essentially arguing that problems caused by refusing to read are problems caused by operating systems, and this really isn't the case. This isn't something Apple has done a better job with either, it's just that the marketshare for Apple wasn't high enough for the malware vendors to bother with them. Notice how reports of Apple-specific shitware have increased in the past couple years with their marketshare? This should probably point out to you that it's not something that's solved by changing OS, it's solved by teaching your friends and family to be more tech-literate. You are arguing that the problem of pedestrians being hit by cars when they cross without looking will be solved if we just pad bumper of the cars enough. You want to try to find a technical solution to a human issue, which computers really aren't up to solving yet.
Don't get met wrong, there's stopgaps. There's services like http://unchecky.com/ which just uncheck all the checkboxes for you. Now you have checkboxes unchecked that you really need checked, and stuff doesn't get installed properly. There's still some reading required.
The point here, though, is that you're not an idiot. Your family aren't idiots. You're just all too lazy for your own good.
(As an aside, there's also valuable lesson in your post that Vaios are among the worst OEMs around. Don't buy Vaio.)
I wish I could upvote this comment a million times. I see the same kind of ignorance-of-their-options (note I specifically say ignorance-of-their-options; I'm not saying anyone is generally ignorant) reflected when developers complain that it's hard to get under the hood of Windows or when developers complain about the tooling on Windows. You'd at least hope that this segment of the user-base would have more intellectual curiosity sometimes.
From the software developer angle, Windows is a FANTASTIC system when you need to get down to the nuts and bolts. People really need to educate themselves about the registry and the various ways the OS can be tweaked; as well as the various tools available (at a bare minimum those from Sysinternals).
Some other examples - the extensible kernel-level instrumentation that you get from ETW; the excellent crash and hang analysis tools provided by the likes of WinDbg (supported by the excellent debugging support in the Windows kernel -- yes, you can enable a keyboard shortcut that will memory dump your machine if it's hung and then it's a few commands to see what crashed); the commandline environment provided by PowerShell (I haven't used it much but really need to get into it more). Not to mention Application Verfier.
I could keep going on and on but it'd probably cloud my point if I haven't done so already :)
Not saying it's perfect or the be-all-and-end-all either; I also use all three major OSs, though primarily develop .NET software on Windows. Just frustrating that many of the complaints can be boiled down to "Windows doesn't work just like Linux/Unix does".
I agree with the poster above about usability, but I disagree about ease of development.
This is partially because linux is the dominant platform for Python developers, but developing/using Python libraries on Windows is really difficult. Many people simply overlook it.
The default command prompt is really really bad. There are alternatives, but none of them come close to the gnome shell. The Batch scripting language is terrible compared to Bash. Powershell is way too verbose and API-heavy. You can use Javascript, but then you are using Javascript... Then there are stability issues. I have left my home Linux computer on and online for months sometimes and never had any issues. Try the same thing on Windows... It will crash on the first week for sure.
The things Windows is great at is Office productivity software, gaming, design, and some other GPU-intensive tasks.
Desktop Linux is great at automation scripts, prototyping apps, temporary services for others (ssh and copy files), and virus-free internet browsing.
I will say is that the Linux ecosystem has Windows beat hands-down when it comes to installing third-party apps and updating them - 'apt-get' is fantastic. OSX confuses me a little in that regard - some apps you copy to the Applications folder; others require an installer to run; for the ones that require an installer it's often not entirely clear how you uninstall them, etc. I always feel like OSX is a little inconsistent in that way. The Mac App Store is nice and unified updating through the app store is also nice.
Stability-wise my machines have actually been very good. I don't reboot much at all and mainly put the machine into suspend instead of turning it off. My first instinct/fear with a spontaneous BSOD now is that my RAM or HDD or something has gone bad.
Agree with you about development with things such as Python (though in that specific case I remember the Python Tools for Visual Studio being okay), or for that matter any new and upcoming language. My first thought when i want to try something like that out is to drop into Linux. It's just better supported for that kind of thing.
> This annoys me so much because you are essentially arguing that problems caused by refusing to read are problems caused by operating systems, and this really isn't the case. This isn't something Apple has done a better job with either, it's just that the marketshare for Apple wasn't high enough for the malware vendors to bother with them.
If you have to carefully uncheck a bunch of options to avoid killing your computer with malware, then yes, the operating system is at fault. These sort of dark design patterns shouldn't exist, and the OS should be designed so that it's harder to implement shady things like this.
Yes, there is Mac malware out there, but Mac apps tend to have no installer at all, which is where most of the malware and crapware come from. It's harder to install some OS daemon when "installing" is just copying a file into your Applications folder. Mac apps almost never ask for permissions so I think users are more wary when the OS is asking weird stuff.
And Malware is practically unheard of in the Linux/Free Software world. I trust "apt-get install" implicitly when dealing with the main Debian archives.
> See, you're doing it again. You're not dealing with "Windows issues", you're dealing with issues on Windows boxes, caused by non-Windows problems.
That's a reasonable distinction, I suppose. How about this: The Windows software community sucks. The product may be fine if you know your way around the horrible alleys where malware and crapware lie in wait, but for normal people, the whole external environment is designed to screw you and mangle your computer.
Windows itself may be great, but the whole ecosystem is a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
I mostly agree, but there's still the fact that unlike in Windows I have to trust a randomer's ppa (or build from source, but that's sometimes pita and no-go for mortals) if I want to install the newest version of libreoffice or whatever, unlike in Windows where I can run binaries directly from the first party source.
All of the GP's complaints are about Windows. You are attempting to divorce "this PDF viewer" from "Microsoft Windows" while the GP's complaints are about the laptop running Microsoft Windows with a bunch of Windows software installed on it.
I love how you point at "unchecky" as a great service when it is a piece of software you use to deal with problems that shouldn't exist in other software.
How manu Windows users wailed and gnashed their teeth over iTunes insisting on installing Quicktime? Is that because Windows users are lazy or that they didn't want Quicktime installed just to use iTunes?
"You are all too lazy for your own good," is classic victim blaming.
Is it perhaps possible that Sony, Dell, Toshiba et al have poisoned the well?
I had been an avid Windows user for two years from 2010-2012 and I had fun with Windows, surprisingly, I did not have the "Windows sucks" feelings back then because I hadn't started using Linux full time, and now I am a full time Linux user.
I don't use Windows on my laptop, but I don't "hate" it, I totally concur on your point about people hating the platform for the wrong reasons, historically the maretshare of Windows has been high and that is the reason for malware stuff.
What irritates me more than people hating windows for no reason is they don't realize that they are not using the platform properly, for eg when I tell fellow developers to switch to or use Linux for development they "stick" to windows even if they can't change the brightness of the screen! Yes some stupid driver error, they say they are "comfortable" with Windows, but irnonically they can't even give folder permission to users, this basic thing!
I feel people are too resistant to change and they want to blame something/someone and that is the problem with the hate stuff that spreads like a flu over the Internet
None of your complaints are about Windows. They're all, almost universally, about OEM and third-party shovelware.
You can't separate windows from its ecosystem - it's allegedly the choice of vendors and the availability of commodity hardware that makes windows at all appealing for most computer users. And the windows ecosystem sucks - it's full of weeds and parasites. Windows can't be examined in the abstract - if 99 out of 100 randomly chosen configurations in the marketplace are just terrible, then that's just Windows. It's the incredible leeway that Microsoft gives IHVs that makes Windows as popular and at the same time as terrible as it is. That's what characterizes Windows. As an operating system, it isn't half bad (it's architecture is quite good, actually) . As a platform, it's terrible.
See, you're doing it again. You're not dealing with "Windows issues", you're dealing with issues on Windows boxes, caused by non-Windows problems
What exactly is it that you're arguing? It seems like you and the parent are largely in agreement and you're trying to generate friction.
I would contend that you're right that it's absolutely true that with enough research and with constant vigilance, you can bring a retail Windows system into an acceptable configuration, have all of your hardware enumerating properly, and avoid malware.
I would contend that the parent is right that maintaining a Windows system is just barely worth it if it's your own machine and is a hopeless time-sink if you're doing it for free for anyone else, like family.
Are you two really just arguing past each other?
The point here, though, is that you're not an idiot. Your family aren't idiots. You're just all too lazy for your own good.
Please see the posting guidelines. Personal attacks are not acceptable.
My Dad got himself a brand new laptop (i7, 8gb ram, ssd, etc). And a brand new printer HP OfficeJet (big black shiny machine with all the bells and whistles).
He couldn't print his stuff for work. He called me up. After over an hour I gave up. Windows 8 couldn't figure out which drivers to use. The CDs attached with printer didn't help too. I mean the installation went smoothly, but then nothing was printed. Check your cables, etc. messages like we are still in 1996.
I don't have time for this BS. Drove back home, got my macbook pro. Came back to my Dad's home and did THIS:
1. connect printer to the mac
2. driver installs after clicking 'OK' or 'install', dont even remember at this point
3. print
Just get Ubuntu Certified Hardware. They have over 500 models of laptops they certify. I have never had a kernel update break wifi. I don't know about all the other stuff, but most distributions store old kernels and allow you to boot back into the old kernel pretty easily. Don't know if this is an option on OS X.
Hell, I run Arch Linux on a number of laptops and workstations, and the only time I've had a kernel upgrade break anything was the wifi on my wife's old netbook some time around 3.12, and that was Broadcom's fault. So I downgraded to 3.11 (didn't even need network access for that), and a few months later on 3.14 it was working again.
Most of the upgrade pain I've had has been caused either by the migration to systemd or by the decision to unify /usr/bin, /bin, /usr/sbin and /sbin into one folder.
One problem with Ubuntu's hardware certification is that it's always for a specific Ubuntu version. I use Ubuntu and would really like it if they would pick at least a few common laptops and commit to ensuring that a certain number of future Ubuntu updates will continue to work perfectly on those laptops. It would help a lot in knowing what to buy.
> Windows is out of the question after seeing what a factory OEM image comes with nowadays. I'm not giving them money and spending 2 days formatting/reinstalling/seeking out drivers on slow Taiwanese servers just to make a half-usable computer. And then, after all that, spend another 2 days installing various adware infested shitware to get a fricking PDF viewer.
Don't know how many of these are at, say, Costco. Which is where many people shop.
I'm never buying a Windows laptop, so it doesn't affect me, but I'm still the resident "family IT specialist". And I know, I just know I'm going to be asked lots of questions I don't have the patience for, as these poor bastards wonder why their computers are slow, all because the shitty OEM wanted to make a few cents off pre-installed shitware.
It doesn't affect me directly, I don't touch Windows laptops unless I'm wearing gloves, but the principle of the thing pisses me off. You're being treated without respect, basically.
It's like a car manufacturer selling you a car with a "feature" that takes away 50 HP to play a jingle every time you turn on your headlights, all because the got paid $7.34 by the jingle manufacturer.
> It's like a car manufacturer selling you a car with a "feature" that takes away 50 HP to play a jingle every time you turn on your headlights, all because the got paid $7.34 by the jingle manufacturer.
Not that bad, but my car does come with what amounts for an advertisement for Sirius Radio built in.
:(
I was also offered a TON of extra add-ons when I bought my car. I'd say it was roughly equivalent to the process of setting up a new low-end PC in regards to the number of ad requests I got.
On the PC side, this is all typically mitigated by not buying the cheapest PC possible. In my experience (and this is not universally true!) the higher end SKUs are more customer centric, since at that point the customer is the one paying the entire cost of the device!
(See also, Nexus devices versus carrier branded phone models!)
>Linux is almost there. It's a crap shoot for me, unless it's running in a VM. I never know which kernel update will fix my trackpad/break my sound/wifi and which will fix the wifi, break suspend, fix sound, but break xrandr or some other archaic XWindows-related technology.
Apple could easily write fully functional Linux drivers for their hardware if they wanted to, but they choose not to.
Instead of OEM Windows image, use this tool to get rid of the crapware (malware in some cases):
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/create-reset-re...
Windows Update is terrible. OS X has that beat. But Windows is ~5 years mainstream support, ~ 10 years extended. With OS X, you don't know. It might be 18 months, it might be 3 years.
> Windows is out of the question after seeing what a factory OEM image comes with nowadays. I'm not giving them money and spending 2 days formatting/reinstalling/seeking out drivers on slow Taiwanese servers just to make a half-usable computer.
"Dude, get a Dell!"[1] Seriously, one of the selling points of a Dell system is rock solid components, and a centralized place to find drivers (at least for the business line of systems). Keep in mind, Dell sells hundreds of thousands (or more?) systems to corporate America, all with support contracts. Everything they can streamline and make more stable and reliable is money in their pocket. I mean, they wrote their own RAID drivers for the AMI and LSI Megaraid chipsets which they resold under the PERC brand, and in my experience, they were better than the manufacturer drivers. That takes dedication.
FWIW, my wifi had similar problems on 10.9. Not every time, but occasionally when it goes to sleep, it doesn't wake up and you have to reset the whole TCP/IP stack to make it work. And lockups after wakeup requiring hard boot are not unheard of either. So it may not be exclusive for 10.10.
My wife and I have identical 2013 13" MBAs. Mine is on Mavericks. Hers, which was bought a little later, is on Yosemite. So, as close as possible, we've got identical HW with different software.
- My battery lasts longer, maybe 2-3 hours more per charge. I nearly never see < 50%, she's hitting 10% at the end of the day. (Note that both are good enough, but they're way different)
- Mail search sucks on Yosemite. Today, we were searching for subjects that I know are there because I'm looking right at them, and nothing is coming up.
- Safari does something funky with process per tab that manages to orphan process that take a bunch of cpu/memory.
- Time machine is really touchy about backing up to the server over wifi. The last few times, it's had to make a new backup on the Yosemite machine. Mine misses a backup every day or so, but that's just an hourly miss, not a full rebuild.
We're considering blowing away her machine and pushing it back to mavericks with Time Machine/fresh install.
Random bugginess. When I came into office, plugged my machine into TB display (have one at home, so should be no issue), I got nothing but black. Could get a login prompt, and even closing lid kept backlight on. Only solution was a hard reboot.
Oh true. I just realized I have the same issue. I connect my macbook to my hengedock which has 3 monitors attached. If I disconnect my macbook and hook up my tv via hdmi, I plug it into my hengedock and my 3rd monitor is just black while plugged into that hdmi port. I always restart it after watching tv and then plugging my monitors to get it to work.
I have all kinds of problems with Bluetooth, specifically with pairing or connecting devices. Hibernation is all kinds of wonky, too. If it's been asleep for a few hours, it will hibernate when I plug it into AC power without resuming it first. (I really wish there was a way to tell it to hibernate if it's been suspended for some user-settable amount of time like I can with Windows, but that's not a problem specific to Mac OS X 10.10.)
Generally much slower response, Final Cut breaking, trouble with hanging apps needing force quits, and it goes on. Minor by themselves; scary when it all seemed to happen after each person upgraded.
Maybe I've waited long enough before moving. Especially now that this vuln is known about.
Just because something is free doesn't make it better.