I'm interested in co-working/co-living spaces, but I'm a bit older (late 30s), I don't want to do the "hostel" thing, and I want to be around others who are successfully running real remote businesses with decent income.
My problem with the whole nomad thing is that most "nomads" are just bloggers starting out. It seems most have just saved enough money to live off of (frugally), and are calling themselves digital nomads. Not much different than regular travellers.
Even the founders of Nomad House look like they've never done anything before - if you read their profiles, they are "builders of businesses" and "growth hackers", whatever that means.
That being said, this might be fun if you're a 20-something, and a bit different than staying at a hostel, but I wouldn't expect to get much more out of it.
but I'm a bit older (late 30s), I don't want to do the "hostel" thing
Assuming you haven't done much traveling, you'd be surprised at who shows up at hostels. It varies greatly by area, but it's not all the partying, early 20's kids that you might imagine.
Also, there are many things besides classic hostels that sort of fall into the hostel category. For example, I stayed in a very nice guest house in Thailand, and in a great dormitory-style apartment in Tokyo.
Thanks for the feedback. I'm a freelancer since 4 year and I'm trying to change the world to be a better place, but I understand you that I never done anything before.
Well, I hope your aims are sincere... I am getting a little annoyed with these digital nomad 'startups' that just want to make money off of other digital nomads, like they're any other market segment to fit a product to. "The Digital Nomad Space." Sucks where it's heading. Like the recent poster doing a similar thing as you but more pricey with a REIT investment group potentially backing him (he's also promoting you, so I don't know, maybe you, him, the nomad list guy are all working together... not that it really matters)... or the "nomad year" venture where you throw down a ton of money to have everything planned out for you (kind of the opposite of being digital nomad IMO), or that IMO unjustifiable digital nomad 'insider' forum where you have to pay simply to chat with other digital nomads. I'm not a cheap person, I just want to keep SV profiteering out of digital nomad land. There are some main culprits, individuals, that come to mind (nobody I'm going to name)... but oh well, what can you really expect?
On the bright side, there's a huge opportunity for someone to sweep through all of this and just offer free concierge services for digital nomads. I met someone working on this, I imagine there are others. That will ultimately take the day when someone gets that formula right. Something more of the spirit of couch surfing.
I'm ranting. Anyways, if you can manage cheap rates at really cool pads, in a way that's better than just splitting an AirBnB with other nomads, then that is something pretty cool.
From the outside, the blogging culture for "digital nomads" already seems like hopeless, sell-out garbage. Frequent low-content posts that have the same promising-but-never-delivering feel as "long copy" marketing, blog-format where something more like a privately-editable Wiki or simple traditional informational site (do people still do those?) would be far more helpful (but, crucially, may have worse SEO to drive traffic to their "funnel"! [vomit]),
"Sign up for our newsletter!" pop-ups.
"Learn how I make money to travel using credit card affiliate links (spoiler alert: it's by writing articles about how I make money from credit card affiliate links)".
"Buy my awful book! Here's a crappy CG render of what it might look like if I had even bothered to on-demand print it!"
It's like all those "growth hacking" marketing sites that started popping up a few years ago. Or Mister Money Mustache, for that matter ("how I live free and cheap and don't even have a job! Spoiler alert: it's by already being kind of rich so I avoid most of the expenses and risk that poor people have, and in fact I work three part time jobs, one of which is this website, so that was simply a lie. Click my affiliate links!") I haven't read Timothy Ferriss, but I see him referenced all the time in relation to these sorts of things. Is he responsible for this explosion of cynical, manipulative, garbage websites that now infest the Internet, or is someone else to blame? The whole thing feels like Amway.
To sum up: speaking as someone on the outside of all this, I'm not sure throwing a few start-ups in to the mix could make the digital nomads' public online presence much scummier[1].
[1] NOT saying even a substantial fraction of people living this life are scummy, mind you!
Well, HN is kind of self-selecting in that respect. I imagine that a more "mature", less SV type of nomad house won't be advertising themselves too much, lest the nomad bloggers come pouring in. (Who, by the way, I have nothing against, but it's not my kind of community either.)
If you've done something before, say what it is. There are tons of people who give that exact same "I've been an entrepreneur for years and I'm changing the world" speech and are bloggers or "social media rockstars". It's not trying to insult you, it's an evaluation of someone they might rent from or do business with. If you've done things now is your chance to plug them too.
I'm guessing that by "freelancer" he didn't mean "entrepreneur", meaning he did work as an "independent contractor" for 4 years for other people but this is his first startup project.
There can be room for several types of nomad networks. People starting companies on their savings and freelancers starting their careers won't look for the same thing than founders who just closed Series B or $400/h Oracle consultants. Yet, a bit of nomad life can be of interest to all those people.
If there is market demand for some high-end nomad freelance network, it will probably happen soon. The hype is here.
There's plenty of digital nomads building legimitate business or doing proper remote "work" (see my comment below). They tend not to be too outspoken, write blog posts, because they are busy, well, doing work. Most of these folks however don't travel too much anymore as they have found a home-base they feel productive in.
I live on the India/Nepal/Thailand "Digital Hippie" circuit and can confirm the following living costs if you're doing it on your on your own without booking anything else in advance:
Thailand (islands like Koh Tao or Koh Phangan): $700/month. Kathmandu/Pokhara: $300-$400/month. Big cities in India (Pune, Bangalore, Calcutta): $1000/month, small towns in India (Goa, Dharmsala, Naggar, Leh): $500/month. These costs include apartment, food internet. All my luggage is carry-on and check-in baggage under 20kg.
I've been doing this for 6 years with occasional runs to Canada or South Africa to visit friends and family. I'm usually in Nepal for the trekking season, India for the Indian classical music season, and Thailand between those gaps.
As someone interested in this lifestyle, do you receive your work from a network of clients you built up from a more traditional job or do you use online job sites.
Man, those are some nice prices. I'm currently traveling in Europe (mostly Western) and my monthly spendings hover around $2100/month on average. (Would be a lot less if I didn't go out to eat so much!) How is life on those islands? Is there a social scene?
There's as much or little social scene as you want, including (to an extent) a choice of whether to hang out with tourist-friendly locals, medium-term Western freelancers/divers/hippies and travellers/holidaymakersof all levels of maturity
Those beach bars and boat trips can drive your monthly spend up quite a bit, but eating out certainly won't blow your budget.
I think this might make me sound like a jerk on this site, but my main concern with NomadHouse (and the previous TheCaravanserai) is that they sound very "startuppy". Is the goal to get VC funding and spin them off into multi-million dollar businesses? I fear this might infuse them with a particular kind of Silicon Valley culture that many of us would in fact like to get away from.
There's also my fear that this strategy will make it more about the business, not the people. At least with Airbnb, the hosts still retain all the control; Airbnb only functions as a distant rental agency and insurance provider. With the startup model, will these communities be able to make their own decisions?
I'm loving the whole Nomad theme going around at the moment. Its made me really think about where I want to be and I have a feeling its going to be anywhere and everywhere.
What I haven't seen much of is horror stories on working remotely -- specifically from people traveling around the world. Does anyone have any links?
I'd also be interested in any horror stories - I suspect they mostly don't get written.
What I rarely see (which is part of my vision) is nomads successfully travelling the world with:
1) A Significant other / spouse
2) Children, and/or
3) Assets (eg, a house in their home country they rent out; a business that's worth something because it's more than them) [1]
Most seem to be single people in their 20s / early 30s, who talk of 'living on the road forever'. I fear (but again, this is linked to what I am creating for myself) many wake up one day and realise they have built nothing in their lives - true, the experiences are priceless and may be worth it, but I don't want to discover at 40 that I have no close friends, no family, that even if I knocked someone up tomorrow I'd still be in my 60s when the kids moved out, and while I've lived off $20,000pa for the last 15 years I don't intend to retire into decrepitude in Thailand but have zero net worth put aside to support me.
I guess I hope that comedown for those who experience it doesn't take away from the awesome life they've led for many years. But when they talk of doing it forever, maybe they're not appreciating the moment as much as they could. Maybe I'm just getting old.
There is some selection bias, the people that are busy doing stuff, typically don't write blogs "How to live with 500$ in chiang mai".
to give you some perspective: i've been doing the "nomad thing" for 5 years, although I'm not actively travelling around much, and mostly based in an asian city. All my belongings fits into one suitcase and 2 duffel bags - 80% is clothes. I am earning above 100$/hour coding, typically as remote contractor with the occasional onsite visit, not simple CRUD-stuff, but interesting and challenging work. I usually do full-time contracting with one client exclusively for about 1 year. Two years ago I spent 3 months exclusively on open source work (that itself opened up very attractive work opportunities itself). My living cost is also pretty much the same as back in Europe, but I live a life in luxury here.
Most DNs eventually "settle" down, and stay in one place for a longer period (think months), and everyone seems to have their default city/place, where they often return to because of friends, they like the vibe etc.
What I found was the close friends you have at late 20ies, you won't lose them, when you go back and most probably you will go back at some point.
Re 1: There's quite a few digital nomad couples, or people who find their significant other. 2) Children not so. Re 3: These all exist, but it's not (yet) the majority.
Re: Horror Stories: I have not yet heard of something worthy the title of a horror story, and i am somewhat involved in the digital nomad community.
First one, was a classical onsite job, which i transitioned into a remote thing. Second big one was offline network, there too it started with onsite for a few months, now quite remote. It helped here being nomadic, as employees were already spread out geographically. I had smaller ones in between that i found online, but they were not fulfilling.
Hey. I'm 32 with honestly zero regrets with lifestyle choices right now and checks on all points, though I don't own a business right now (have done) but am part of one that I'm proud of, which I actually prefer. Horror stories are the same everywhere: bureaucracy, backstabbing, corruption, dodgy infrastructure, human and hardware failures. You'd get it in the US as much as anywhere else, just in different measure.
You seem to be implying that people are likely to 'fail' in life by leaving the conventional career path. Remember: life and business are not a continuum, they're alternate perspectives and themes in the same experience that aren't mutually exclusive. In other words: all things in moderation.
As it happens, our family is on a two week beach bum episode (for me this means coding + swimming, for my wife it means variety of food and less hassles, for our young daughter the chance to swim and hear more languages at an age ideal for future cognitive development) in Thailand right now, and as it happens just had a fascinating chat with some decrepitude-avoiding random westerners, one was a fully accredited marine biologist turned career diver (over a decade) and the other ran a pest control business (migrated from fire engineering). With the former I discussed the potential of open ocean aquaculture, and with the latter the paleontology, biology and relative business environment (bureaucracy) between Thailand and mainland China. Try walking 5 minutes down the road in the US and getting conversation like that. While I wouldn't live here full time, plenty of interesting people you shouldn't casually dismiss do.
Finally, don't forget that 'net worth' is worthless if you're too old to enjoy it. If you're the sort of person who insures themselves before travel, religiously pre-books accommodation and consults their doctor-of-decades for potential immunization requirements before crossing a state border, then you could begin with a different kind of trip. A lot of people out here are risk takers that just weren't happy with the status quo. True, some of them fail on economic trajectory, but relative to never having taken a risk they certainly earn my respect.
The grass is always greener. For every person who wakes up one day to realize that they have built nothing in their lives, there's someone else who wonders what they could have accomplished if they hadn't settled down so early. Both of these thoughts are ultimately unproductive. Choose the life that's right for you and enjoy it as much as you can. No one ever looked back and said "I wish I'd spent more time sitting on the fence while trying to decide what to do."
In regards to the first part of your comment, I can't imagine travelling the world with a significant other and children. Perhaps in rare cases for a limited time, but it's hard to imagine that two people would want to participate in that lifestyle for the same length of time. It seems like part of the ethos of "travel" is a certain kind of freedom. Part of starting a family is responsibility, which is the opposite of freedom. Maybe the travelling family lifestyle will become more common as the world becomes more interconnected through technology, but that seems like that could still be awhile away.
Best of luck in your pursuit of the ideal life for you.
> while I've lived off $20,000pa for the last 15 years I don't intend to retire into decrepitude in Thailand but have zero net worth put aside to support me.
You make a very good point. I'm highly biased as I'm doing it myself, but what I see from the people around me doing it is that most are not "bums".
Instead they're able to reduce their costs aggressively, that helps them spend time building startups/businesses and have a longer runway to do that until it becomes profit generating. The next step is growing and building more of those businesses. Many people I know generate $10-25k/m. You're right I know just as many that generate $500/m. But most of them are just starting. Most people are able to generate substantial revenue after awhile.
The next step for many is to invest in real estate in emerging markets. They rent it out or AirBnB it to foreigners. Then at 60, they're probably better off with more cash, more equity, than if they'd stayed in a place with high costs (e.g. US/EU right now). Most people in EU/US are simply unable to save money due to the rising costs of live (mostly rent and food).
I don't like how this is portrayed as the "this solves everything"-lifestyle. It doesn't at all. But if you take advantage of the cost thing, it can be beneficial.
> I don't want to discover at 40 that I have no close friends, no family,
That's also a great point. I feel the same and the only way we could be able to fix this is if this becomes more mainstream and you have friends doing it too, and make lots of new friends that are doing it. Technology also helps a lot (e.g. simple stuff like WhatsApp) to stay in touch. And most of these nomads are flying around every 3 months, so they do stay in touch with their close friends.
I'm excited to see where this goes, there's definitely many social challenges to solve.
There are many different kinds of nomads, and not all of them want to travel forever. For me, the perfect solution would be to find (or found) a moderately-sized community of like-minded folks out in the world somewhere. Travel isn't the end goal for my life; it's to find a place where I would ultimately feel a great sense of contentment living. And if the place is close enough to a more urban area, or if the community has enough incoming and outgoing members to always have a crop of fresh people in the mix, then I think it'll be possible to form meaningful friendships, relationships, and even families while doing it.
But yes: at 26, I'm certainly starting to see the seeds of a lifetime of loneliness if I were to spend all my time on the road, especially as many of my friends are starting to get married and have kids. Due to my personality, I've discovered that the best way for me to make friends is to spend some time living with them. Unfortunately, that's hard when you're moving from city to city every month.
> 3) Assets (eg, a house in their home country they rent out;
I know a guy who used to do exactly that. He had a house in San Antonio that he would rent individual bedrooms out of. Provided him with enough income to travel on, so long as he kept costs down. After a few years the neighborhood got fed up with it, and bugged the HOA until they changed the rules specifically so he couldn't do that.
Accustomed to traveling and not working, not wanting to settle down, he sold the house. Now he does just enough to get by, bouncing around the Americas with occasional sojourns to Europe.
If a person is autotelic and takes enjoyment not from materialistic things, do you think they would have the same feeling? If money isn't important?
Wouldn't you meet loads of people on the road so you'd have loads of friends around the world-ish?
I feel the type of person who could be a nomad, these normal social factors are less important? So they may be unlikely to wake up to these realisations.
I'm glad there are plenty of people here giving their positive views of making their own path. I left the US on and off for several years before I made it stick and realized I'd likely not be returning to the States (other than a quick visit here or there), no matter where I decide to live/move around. So far, so good.
I've lived tons of different situations, with extremely poor people, some who were rich, and others, middle class. I've lived in the countryside, the big city, the burbs, on the beach, in the mountains, and in the middle of nowhere. I've paid high prices, low prices and no price to live where I have. Once, I went through all of this within the same big city. Sure, during these years living abroad I've mostly done the '$500 thing' (and mostly, not by choice) but it's amazing what kind of experiences you can have on a shoestring and at this point I wouldn't trade it.
>What I rarely see is nomads successfully travelling the world with: 1) A Significant other / spouse 2) Children, and/or 3) Assets
Welcome to the world of boating!
I lived 10 years of my youth on a sailboat with my family, and in our travels, we met many other boating families that also met all your points. Some may think it's not the easiest lifestyle, but to many others it's the dream come true. I, for one, am thankful for the wonderful upbringing that it means for me.
A couple from around here chose an RV instead; they've been traveling for a few years now, with their daughter.
How do you handle their education? I heard the couple stopped moving so much to allow the daughter to frequent a school with more stability. Are yours homeschooled instead?
I don't know if this qualifies as "horror", but I think it's a pretty good description of some of the negatives. I was sort of semi-nomadic for a while and I definitely recognize those feelings.
Thank you for that link. It was enlightening in ways I didn't expect. For example, I had no idea that airbnb was so broken:
"You'll notice that nearly all the reviews of places to stay on AirBnB are positive. Why? Because if you post a negative review, the host is likely to post a negative review about you in retaliation. And once you have a negative review as a guest, nobody will rent to you."
Not sure whether it was different in the beginning, but nowadays, reviews are only displayed after both parties have submitted theirs - or once the 14 day window for submitting reviews has expired.
Yes — this has fortunately been fixed. I still have the problem where if the hosts are really nice but the place isn't great, I don't want to leave a bad review and shut down their operation. As a result, I mostly leave reviews when the stay was amazing in some way.
That's a very accurate article. One downside that he didn't mention, which is actually the same as one of his upsides, is that you're always a visitor — especially if you have the Schengen problem like he described. It's hard to feel comfortable, acclimated, at home, when you change cities so often. Now I take particular relish in coming back to places I've been before, and I hope I can find an easy way to attain residency in Europe so I don't have to do the UK-Schengen-Balkans thing every 3 months.
Thanks, I'll add it now. It's a legal gray area for sure and it will take some time for the law to catch up on the reality that many more of us will start traveling and working from different places.
Customs and immigrations everywhere provide official processes people can follow for living and working in a country. Enforcing this stuff happens on a country-by-country basis and detecting it can be slow and difficult or not even close to a priority but that does not make it a gray area. Here in Costa Rica they've made many steps in the last few years to address "perpetual tourism", it used to be easy to live here on renewable tourist visas and many people took advantage of that.
In case you are still watching this and want more feedback, let me quote someone else here:
> it's like airbnb but with less privacy?
A lot of these "nomad" ventures have a huge focus on networking, socialising... I'd like to see something catering for introverts as well. Something that ticks all the boxes - self contained room + kitchen, Wifi. Desk, with chair.
Kind of like Airbnb apartments but with a more razor focus, a place with quality control where I know I can get work done. The Airbnb of (small, low budget!) serviced apartments.
General "serviced apartment" facilities might fit this, however they all appear to focus on the premium end - large spacious apartments fit for well salaried business travellers, not freelance tech guys just scraping by.
Heck, all I want is a sound proofed box with Wifi, bed, and a tiny Kitchen. Somewhere I can work in absolute peace, self cater if I wish, but also venture out from now and then.
I understand this is not what you are aiming for, but if you ever need any other ideas... ;)
I'm getting sick of this whole nomad thing. Brand it for "nomads" and you have another way to sell stuff to travellers. Even more ridiculous is the idea of building an online community for "digital nomads". What could you possibly have in common? The fact that you work online while travelling to a foreign country?
The fact that you work online while travelling to a foreign country?
That alone represents a huge swath of possibilities. Which countries have no problem with foreign workers on tourist visas? Where are co-working locations? Who's a good, affordable tax accountant who can deal with the intricacies of money earned while outside the country? Where are the best locations for connectivity vs. price?
You'll find heavily trafficked websites for all sorts of foreign working and expat situations (e.g. retirees in Thailand, teachers in Japan), so surely the "nomadic" tech workers would have a lot to talk about.
Which countries have no problem with foreign workers on tourist visas
Working on a tourist visa is illegal in most countries I've been to. If you talking about working online on a business which is not tied to the country you are staying in, then you can do that on a tourist visa for a short period of time, but eventually if you are staying longer you are no longer a tourist and need to somehow justify your presence in the country. As much as those laws don't make any sense to people working online, that's the current legal framework in most of places.
Where are co-working locations?
I don't see a point of working in a coworking space. Wouldn't you rather explore nice cafes in the area? The only benefit of a coworking space for me is networking, and this is huge, this is what distinguishes a "I'd rather go to a coffeeshop" coworking spaces from "I belong to this community" type of coworking places. Those are extremely difficult to find, and in my experience are impossible in high-traffic nomadic locations, due to their nature (travellers just pass by).
Where are the best locations for connectivity vs. price?
You look at the spreadsheet at nomadlist, and some places look like paradise - live by the beach, very cheap, etc. But in my experience everything comes with pros and cons. For example, SEA is cheaper than Mediterranean countries, but the climate is nowhere near as good. USA is better when it comes to networking, but it's also more expensive. Everything comes with a cost, and there is no magic bullet.
Working on a tourist visa is illegal in most countries I've been to.
It was just discussed the other day that Thailand now allows remote work on a tourist visa. You've provided a pretty good example of why such a site would have value in disseminating information.
I don't see a point of working in a coworking space.
Uh. Okay? How is that relevant to the discussion in any way? And what makes you think that cafes would somehow be excluded from consideration? You wouldn't find value in knowing what connectivity a cafe offers before traveling there?
Everything in your final paragraph just further supports the need for sites dedicated to providing information on these topics.
Nice idea, this seems like something that effectively parcels out an exotic AirBNB that has good internet for a monthly rate, which is something more easily accomplished by the traveling tech worker by simply setting search filters on AirBNB. If there was a way to immediately sign up for a month I see there being the possibility of someone impulse buying a space.
Here's the thing about Airbnb, though. If you compare their typical monthly rates to a more accurate cost-of-living calculator like numbeo, you'll find that the rentals tend to be 1.5x-2.0x more expensive than finding a flatshare the "normal" way. Unfortunately, doing the latter is annoying and somewhat difficult. And you never know what you're going to get. Is the internet going to be stable? Is the heating going to work? Are the hosts going to be amicable?
If the other NomadHouses are going to be as affordable and beautiful as the Bali one ($1000/month would be reasonable), it'll be a fantastic deal. You get your own room; a wonderful house; a community of like-minded people to spend time with; and all with a simple click of a button. Perfect for people like me.
you have !NOTHING! to show, at least not to me from the viewpoint of a search engine author. You show an empty page without JavaScript.
ok ... lets be a nice human and allow scripts. Allowing nomadhouse.io: still blank page. Google maps sounds interesting, when looking at the 3rd party scripting domains. But still a blank page. Mixpanel, Segment, Addthis, ... hey ... how many evil 3rd party tracking scripts does this site run? And still a blank page.
Finally: Stripe w-hat ... I need to enable scripting of a payment provider to view the page?
Where are the google maps, I hoped to see with maps.bigbrotherapis? Or are they also only include to add an other tracking?
Clicking on Berlin, I get a popup asking for registering a user. So you basically have a big expensive, complicated landing page, with a lot of tracking, but search engine blocking, that does nothing but asking for my mail address.
sorry ... no bounty. I'm harsh now, but your site fails completely, even if the service might be interesting. You might get a good peak now with postings on HN, but ensure your site is accessible without JS for search engines. You have only a few days time, that good links might result in a good SEO. Change your site asap.
Hmm, this takes the point/fun out of being a nomad for me.
I'm going to another country to work, effectively rather than going to experience the country and work on the side.
Good idea though, sure there will be lots of people who will love it.
My problem with the whole nomad thing is that most "nomads" are just bloggers starting out. It seems most have just saved enough money to live off of (frugally), and are calling themselves digital nomads. Not much different than regular travellers.
Even the founders of Nomad House look like they've never done anything before - if you read their profiles, they are "builders of businesses" and "growth hackers", whatever that means.
That being said, this might be fun if you're a 20-something, and a bit different than staying at a hostel, but I wouldn't expect to get much more out of it.