"Well, you are aware that the roads were built for cars right?"
Unless you're referring only to freeways, that's a nice bit of revisionism. Especially in any city older than 100 years, the streets were built to carry trolleys, horses, carriages, omnibuses, and a variety of vehicles just as slow as bicycles. And cycles continue to be legal to ride on those roads. So you're managing to be both historically and legally wrong.
"I'm going to go out to my local bike trails and ... throw handfuls of thumbtacks in front of all the bikers"
I don't live in a city, and very little development where I live is older than 20 years old.
While cycles are legal on the roads, keeping with traffic is also a legal requirement in every state in the U.S. for any person on the road. But because bikes, they don't get ticketed and prosecuted for impeding the flow of traffic.
Look it up yourself. Your local state law should be online. Every single state in the U.S. requires road users to not impede the flow of traffic. That's why you can get a ticket for driving to slow.
21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed
less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction
at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand
curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following
situations:
(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle
proceeding in the same direction.
(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a
private road or driveway.
(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but
not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles,
pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes)
that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge,
subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this
section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for
a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the
lane.
(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.
(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway of a highway,
which highway carries traffic in one direction only and has two or
more marked traffic lanes, may ride as near the left-hand curb or
edge of that roadway as practicable.
Nope. Keep searching. You found the law that allows bikes to share the road with cars. Now find the laws that I'm talking about. Off the top of my head for CA, 21202, 21654, 22400, and a few others.
Bikes have responsibilities as well, not just unlimited privilege.
As an aside, I'd like to object to this rhetorical technique. "You haven't found the thing that proves me right, therefore I am right" should not be permitted in arguments.
For the record, I don't think your intent was malicious, just calling attention to something I see a bit and don't like.
Yeah, there's been some good stuff in these threads, and some less good stuff. Tryin' to nudge everyone in the direction of the former - myself included. Thanks :)
The wikipedia page says nothing about minimum speeds.
21202 and 21654 explicitly list restrictions that must be followed when traveling at "less than the normal speed of traffic". This suggests to me that doing so is legal. By the way, 21202 is exactly what I quoted to you, so it's kind of funny that you would repeat it back to me.
22400 deals with impeding traffic, "unless it's necessary for the safe operation" of the vehicle. I don't know who determines what is necessary for safe operation, but travelling at a speed achievable by humans is certainly necessary for the operation of bicycles, and bicycles are explicitly granted permission to use roads.
I certainly don't see any clear legal requirements in general to maintain any specific minimum speed limit.
No I think he's right. At least around where I live (well, used to live, I'm in Korea at the moment), cyclists are not supposed to ride on roads that disrupt traffic or don't have a sufficient shoulder to pull off onto to let vehicles pass.
By contrast in Korea, they're not supposed to use roads at all and you'll find everything from bikes to scooters sharing sidewalks with people on foot. But bikes aren't real common here anyways with the small apartments and all.
edit actually I was curious and looked it up for Korea. Turns out according to Article 2(17)(a) of the 도로교통법 (road laws), bikes are classified as motor vehicles and have all the same rights and responsibilities as a motor vehicle.
Weird because I almost never see them out in traffic, but usually up on sidewalks or on "bike-only" roads.
ehhh...You're probably right. I dunno about CA law.
looking up the conversation, recursive and you seem kind of hung up on this wording "unless it's necessary for the safe operation" which I would interpret as meaning not just speed but actual safety. Of course it's not safe (or possible) to operate a bike at 100 kph. But I personally also don't feel safe clinging to the right most bit of a lane with a dropoff inches away while vehicles whizz around me.
I try not to ride on roads with poor bike safety without having to consult the law, but it seems like that phrase basically enshrines what I already do. If it's a fast road with no shoulder, I really try hard no find a path that doesn't take me on it. Yeah, sometimes you can't avoid it. But I'm not going to get upset with somebody who would rather not be driving their car in the same lane as me. I don't want to be in the lane with them either!
"But I personally also don't feel safe clinging to the right most bit of a lane with a dropoff inches away while vehicles whizz around me."
Right, I have no compunction taking the lane when the shoulder gets dangerous. Safety is always the concern. Note, for instance, that one of the specific times you're told you don't have to stay right (21202a4 - https://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21202.html) is when a car might try to make a right turn through you (a frequent way for cyclists to get hit).
> This ride-to-the-right provision does not apply when operating in a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle to travel safely side-by-side with another vehicle within the lane.
> A bicyclist riding at the speed of traffic can operate in any lane, just as any other vehicle can..Where there is not a bike lane, a bicyclist may also use the shoulder of the roadway.
> Bicycles may not be ridden in the travel lanes of any roadway where the posted maximum speed limit is more than 50 miles an hour; however, bicycles may be operated on the shoulder of these roadways.
So it seems to me that if I ever go back to MD, I can take over the entire lane if I'm keeping up with traffic (which for me means speeds < 20mph at full blast). Between about 20mph and 50 I can also take it over if there's no safe shoulder or other place for me to ride. Above 50 I can only ride on an available shoulder, if there's no shoulder I can't go on the road at all.
Maybe that's what I was thinking of. Either way I don't like to get out in front of cars, except maybe in the local neighborhood on residential streets where they're not supposed to be exceeding 15mph anyways.
Unless you're referring only to freeways, that's a nice bit of revisionism. Especially in any city older than 100 years, the streets were built to carry trolleys, horses, carriages, omnibuses, and a variety of vehicles just as slow as bicycles. And cycles continue to be legal to ride on those roads. So you're managing to be both historically and legally wrong.
"I'm going to go out to my local bike trails and ... throw handfuls of thumbtacks in front of all the bikers"
I'd like to see how that works out for you.