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Hello, this is an extortion email (dejanseo.com.au)
154 points by adamcarson on Aug 14, 2014 | hide | past | favorite | 42 comments



If the extortionists are able to demote the targeted website with this, then web ranking is seriously broken. This is quite basic, guilt by association needs to work in the opposite direction: my site should get demoted if my site links to shady sites and not if shady sites point to me. I would be extremely surprised if Google got this wrong.

This mass funelling of inlinks, also called a Sybil attack are not that hard to defend against if one tweaks the Pagerank equations just a little bit. The source of the problem in the original Pagerank equation was that it used addition. The Pagerank of a page was defined to be the sum of all inlink weights flowing in. Now sum is a problem because it cannot distinguish between links from a million shitty pages, from a link from a golden page if the total link weight flowing in is the same. I seriously doubt if sum is used anymore.

The solution is fairly straightforward, dont use a sum, use a function that weighs higher values higher. An extreme example would be the MAX operator. In this case, among all the inlinks my site receives, only the one with the maximum inflow counts, all the crappy inlinks might as well have not existed. Max is brittle though and causes instabilities in the convergence, but variations of soft max works decently enough in theory. To phrase it in another way, the original Pagerank equations used the L1 norm of the in-flow vector, one can use Lp norm [0] or fractional powers Lp norms with a higher p . If one chooses p = \infinity one gets the MAX operator.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lp_space#The_p-norm_in_finite_d...


"I would be extremely surprised if Google got this wrong."

They did get it wrong, and the problem has been well known for many months. Google has placed a weapon in the hands of anyone who wants to spend a modest amount of money to buy thousands of spammy links pointing to your site. But Google doesn't consider this a real problem, because you can spend hundreds of hours tracking these links down and disavowing them.


Yeah, Google got this one wrong. Just read up on the Google Penguin penalty.

Google used to change the value of "bad" links to 0 rather than negative. The problem was that there was no risk to spamming. You might waste time, but you might get some links that Google didn't realize were spam.

There are a lot of problems with what srean suggested above, namely that it favors big brands who work with other big brands and creates additional barriers to entry for new companies.

I think Google has gone too far in link-based penalties, but the solution isn't to stop them altogether. Their current solution for weighing anchor text and trust is pretty weak. I've never seen a confirmed case of "negative SEO" working to penalize, but I have seen Google penalizing people for things that were not meant to manipulate the algorithm.

There's not an easy solution, but I think it's a far more sophisticated spam-fighting algorithm.


The solution is not at all straightforward, this whole thing has been a game between blackhat SEOs and google for many years. The spammers make a move, google makes a move, spammers respond ad infinitum.

The problem is that spammers / extortionists can adapt their techniques much more so than Google can.

They care solely about getting paid, they don't care about building a brand, offering a good service or anything else. This allows them a huge degree of flexibility when finding ways to attack their less nimble adversary. They can transition from selling viagra to extortion with ease.

If it was straightforward, a company which employs many of the most gifted, technical minds in the world should probably have figured it out by now. Also, it's very unlikely that Pagerank is even in use at all at this point.


Oh dealing linkspam is far from straightforward, its a veritable arms race. My comment was with respect to Sybil attacks. And agree totally with your comment about use of Pagerank, hence my comment that I doubt sum is used anymore.


The problem is rather hard. If Google manages to catch "only" 99.9% of spam links and does not penalize the receiving site for those, the 20 000 spam links mentioned in the post would still add 20 links' worth of PageRank. As you point out, crappy links can be made to count for less; but creating spam links is really cheap, so they would need to count for very little to stop spammers.

And stopping spammers is good - fighting web spam is (was) a major effort for e.g. forum operators.


I don't get it. If the naive page rank uses a sum, then why would you get penalized for being linked by a shitty page? Worst case scenario, you get nothing from those links.


This was true until recently, when Google started penalizing sites with overwhelmingly shitty link profiles.


I can share my experience on the other side of the board.

I run a forum hosting platform (forumcrea.com) and we get spammed a lot. Empty forum creation with just links, profile bombing or just mass posting are hard to deal with. We have advanced captcha, clever javascript tricks, manual cleaning, ip banning... However, when you are dealing with human farms or just a smart spammer, it's almost impossible to keep up. Plus it's only a side thing that I run for free entirely, so I don't want to waste time dealing with it. Some people do use the forums for good though.

Concerning this particular problem, my experience is in 98% of the case, they are not going to carry on with their threats. Almost every emails asking for link removals (and that's a lot!) I've received from site owners is when they have hired a SEO company (or run the bots themselves) that has spammed the forums of my platform.

Something piss me off about these people. It's when they then ask YOU to remove their mess. Without any compensation. I usually not respond (I am carrying on cleaning tasks whenever I want and if I want.) or respond with $150 bill. They should have keep the login/password or keep access to the forgotten password email. I don't know why I will do special treatments.

Funny story. I think the only time I've received a link removal requests explaining their were poor victims of negative SEO, it was from the same people that 2 weeks in the past sent me a email explaining their are the ones who have spammed the forums. They think we are stupid or something. I guess they haven't liked the idea of paying for spam cleaning. Shady once, shady forever.


> I run a forum hosting platform (forumcrea.com) and we get spammed a lot. Empty forum creation with just links, profile bombing or just mass posting are hard to deal with.

This is why I setup http://blogspam.net/ - An API service that you can use to test submissions in real-time. I wanted to abstract the testing from one of my sites that attracted a lot of this stuff.

Might be worth a look for you.


Google should penalize the source of the links, not the target. That is, identify sites that are so poorly run that they allow themselves to be the source of large numbers of low-quality links, and give no ranking to any links emanating from those sites; moreover, delist those sites from the search index.

Those sites are as much a problem as the spammers themselves. They are analogous to open relays in e-mail.


It is important to document cases like these, so others in the future won't panic when such SEO blackmail happens.

The closest form I could find to report this to Google is: https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/paidlinks Though not regular selling links for money, I would make note about that in the additional details and provide a link to their XRumer domain list.

In my experience the folks over at the webmaster forums: https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!forum/webmasters are good at, and interested in, handling these sorts of cases.


Unfortunately the only way to combat this is to manually disallow negative SEO backlinks. Meaning you have to go into your Google account, goto the disallow tools and manually disallow the links that point to your site.

Now, in this case the spammer has supplied you with a list.

That makes life a lot easier, as you have a source of 20,000 links to disallow!

Unfortunately in remote places and smaller towns, it'd cost you <$50 to completely decimate any online competition in your area via Google. It'd cost them >$300 to fix these with a paid "SEO expert".


Can someone explain how the extortion actually works? I don't have much experience with SEO. Thanks


Spammers noticed that their own sites got nuked from the results when they used an automated tool (XRumer) to point thousands of low-quality links to these sites.

So with a paid product that was now useless (or less useful) for linkspam, they now turn it around and use it for blackmail: Pay us or we point all these links to your site.

There used to be a time when the majority of these links were simply ignored by Google. They were worthless for both linkbuilding and negative SEO. This may or may not have changed with more recent updates.

In all of this spammers are largely sailing blindly and most of their analytic "insights" are circumstantial. Pointing a large amount of XRumer links to a site may only be a single signal to start a deeper investigation: if that turns up nothing spammy, chalk it up to ineffective negative SEO, and investigate deeper.


Google used to ignore the spammy SEO links, but you can work around that by just spamming even more of them and hoping that the 1% that slip by will have a positive effect. As a result of that, Google changed their ranking system so that the spam links that do get caught have a negative effect on your rank. Which sounds like a good solution, but they have no way of confirming whether the site owner made the links or not. So now we have blackmail like this.

I assume Google is aware of this issue and has a system in place to try and prevent it, but good luck getting support if it screws up and your site falls through the cracks.


Google's official position is that even though they're penalizing sites for incoming links, negative SEO is impossible. So yeah - good luck getting any help from them.


Ah that makes sense. Thanks!


Google engineers are not stupid. They know that they are enabling negative SEO by explicitly marking some links as "BAD" that negatively affect your ranking. But they are also winning the war against Blackhat SEO's, who no longer have any incentive to spam links to their own websites. If you are a victim of negative SEO, you can use the link disavow tool to invalidate the link spam. Every victim will use this tool. But no blackhat will use this tool on his own site, because it will disavow all his links!

So now Google can tell the difference between a "legitimate" ("white-hat") site and a "spammy" ("black-hat") site. The legitimate site uses the link disavow tool when it gets bad links. The spammy site does not.

This gives Google a much better filter for "spammy" sites. The cost is that some webmasters might be victimized without realizing it, and not use the disavow tool. But it severely reduces any incentive blackhats have to spam links to their own properties.


Not really. It won't take long for the blackhat to disavow some but not all of his links. A victim of negative SEO also can't disavow all of the incoming links, so again there's no real way to tell them apart.


I was looking for Xrumer but I forgot the link...


http://botmasterlabs.net/ This is the official site.


I don't know if you are in on the joke, but this is how XRumer actually works. It has bots or other users provide links to their auto-posted questions, in an effort to avoid detection.


The best case (for them) is when they fool an actual user to look up the product and add the link.


And of course they want to get paid with western union. Anybody knows what percentage of WU traffic is legitimate?


I'm fairly surprised they're not using Bitcoin. Must be eastern Europeans who aren't worried about law enforcement.


But still, they could have asked 10% more if they used Bitcoin.


Is there some funky JS on that page? After scrolling down a few screens, none of my touches register. It's like they are preventDefaulting all touch events. Would have liked to scroll through the embedded G+ comments but I guess not. (iOS mobile safari)


Go to the police. They could probably get a judge to shut down this site.


They are probably hosted in some eastern European country, I'm not sure how well cross boarder/international judgements go.


This made me chuckle: "download the following Notepad file: 20000-XRumer-Forum-Profile-Backlinks-Dofollow.txt"


I sent a friendly message to Rannvijay (the extortionist) to waste his time a little bit. If enough people do this, the extortionists might end up abandoning their email addresses or (if we get lucky) even their domain to block unwanted attention. Doesn't take more than a minute to try.


To be clear:

You just launched a joe-job attack on someone who is accused (without conclusive proof) of launching joe-job attacks.


That's very cute, but nothing a post on Hacker News and reporting it to google shouldn't solve.

Also, should this ever happen, point them to a random 419 scammer. that'll keep 'em busy for a while


The 'disavow' mentioned in the article is the official method to communicate with google about bad spammy links.

Further, say you're google - how do you tell that these spammy links are from an external extortion threat to a company and not an attempt at black hat, spammy SEO?

It's realistically a minimum of a couple months for Google to remove disavowed links - if ever.


Wouldn't it make more sense to make suspected "black hat" SEO not contribute to a websites rankings but also not hurt it?

It's always been an issue that someone can purchase links on spam websites and harm competitors, I would imagine that Google knows about this.

I don't see any advantage to harming a websites rankings because of these questionable SEO techniques.


As mentioned by someone else in this thread, that opens up for spammers to turn it up a notch and spam even more. "hey it can't hurt and some may slip through & increase the pagerank"


The problem with that is that you can then post a houndred times as many links and hope that just a few of them go through.

It is a cat and mouse game and we are going to get fucked.


This is why standardized tests like the SAT deduct a quarter point for wrong answers. There needs to be a "penalty" to keep the expected value even.


But in this case, another student is taking your SAT exam after you've handed it in and filling in blank answers with wrong answers.


Further, that student has no ID and misspelled your name, but some how you still don't get to go to college.

Google just keeps creeping deeper into the shade ...


No question that somebody is cheating or that the teacher should do something. Just saying, the algorithm is punitive for a reason.




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