They've sacrificed their core of users who supplied all of the checkins and tips in order to try to kill Yelp. Problem was, only those loyal users were ever convinced that they were better than yelp.
Now that they've chosen the foursquare name, which is synonymous with checkins, for their Yelp clone, it seems like they haven't thought out...
1. If the checkin users leave because Swarm is stupid and eliminates everything fun (mayorships, badges, reading all the tips without going to another app, seeing who else is checked in besides your friends), who is going to keep supplying them with behavioral data? Not casual users, who won't open the app and show their location at all until they're looking for a recommendations. In terms of data, casual users are takers, while the check-in users are givers.
2. Foursquare super users (their community of people who applied for edit privileges on the venue data) are probably all avid check-in users. Without them, junk venues and spam may overwhelm.
3. How do they really expect to attract enough users who want to use the new foursquare now that the app is a completely different thing? What's their differentiator from Yelp? To me it just seems like it's Yelp but with shorter reviews. Everyone who didn't use foursquare before because they hated check-ins isn't going to even know they killed check-ins and will still stay away.
I think this whole plan might have had a chance if they'd left foursquare alone as their data generator, and launched a new app with a new name for their Yelp clone. At least then they'd have a new chance to introduce themselves and try to attract the mass audience they're going for.
Agreed. I've been a super user for years, and I was happy to give foursquare all of my data because they did two great things with it:
1) they gave it back to me so I had an accessible record of my check-ins which is very helpful if you travel frequently, and very lovely if, like me, your personality combines deep nostalgia with shocking forgetfulness. It also made Timehop worth opening.
2) they used it in seemingly intelligent ways to give me surprisingly good recommendations when I needed them, and showed me where friends had checked in, even if they hadn't left tips. A check-in from a friend can be a tiny endorsement of its own in absence of anything else.
Both of those benefits are what keep me checking in. Which is what keeps me using the app. I fully recognize that there isn't enough of me to support foursquare. I get that. But I'm still sad to see it go.
Honestly, I used the app the same way you did... I'm a bit dismayed with the new direction. It seems like they could have still left the checkin feature but made it less prominent (I still would have been happy as a super user)
That's actually something I really want. I'm sick of reading "My fiancee and I were walking down Main St, browsing restaurants, when we happened to notice <restaurant name>. She likes fish, so we were looking for fish dishes..."
As for the rest of it - you're likely right. But the old Foursquare wasn't generating money. So either you abandon your hardcore users by shutting down, or you attempt to move them to a new service that has a better business model.
My biggest complaint about Yelp is the same as yours, nearly everyone is a "foodie" and trying to write reviews like they're part of the New York Times.
The beauty of Yelp is that you don't have to read them! The power is in the fact that reviews are aggregated ("..and the fish is amazing!") and that you can search within them. Sometimes I wanna search "oysters" to see if their oysters are any good. Let's say out of 100 reviews one mentions oysters - at least now I have an idea what to expect about oysters, whereas in Foursquare this may not have even been documented due to the char limit.
Except that that aggregated data frequently aggregate useless info into a very reductive score. If I go to a $ restaurant, I don't value a poor review which bases itself on poor service. If I'm paying $10 a plate, I can handle almost any level of service if the food is good.
It's a sliding scale though, at $$$$ I would rate the service related review more highly.
I would LOVE if yelp let people rate reviews, as well as restaurants. Useful reviews deserver more weight than ones that say, "I hated it, and didn't leave a tip because the waiter was ..."
They do let you rate reviews which will filter upwards, but the "power users" always win out. The problem is the power users are the ones who write the long winded reviews.
Fully agree, that's why I don't use yelp and preferred just the bite-sized reviews. The twitter style reviews managed to all impart useful info in a time frame I can consume between door of restaurant (begin check-in) and table (already have 3 inspirations on what to order).
Sadly most of my friends who don't use foursquare haven't seen it my way.
But my point is, they're still building and supporting 1 check-in app... If they'd just called that one foursquare and not remove any features, and make a new app for the rest of the world, they could still pursue that larger group of non-obsessed users that they need without alienating the people who would be happy to keep supplying them with behavioral data and content forever.
It's not just that tips are shorter than reviews, though that's part of it. The issue with Yelp is that every single user gets the same recommendations if they search at the same place and time. And in a world where everything is becoming more personalized, it's crazy that the predominant app in the local search category does nothing to tailor its results to you. When you sign up for the new Foursquare, it asks you for your tastes so that every time you search, every time you open the app, it will be tailored for the things you like. It's like Amazon recommended products vs the experience you get on non-smart ecommerce platforms. It's smarter at a fundamental level; the things we are doing with our data are really smart and unprecedented in this space. That's why I'm confident we have a differentiated product in this new app, and I hope you try it out and see what I mean.
Furthermore, we still have tons of check-in data - 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm and continue to check in. So I don't think there's much to worry about with regards to our data getting stale and losing quality.
Consider that the 10% must also include Windows Phone users (as there is no Swarm app in WP).
'checkin users' probably means something like "active daily users on platforms where we have released swarm" and 'moved over to Swarm' means something like "has at least 1 checkin using Swarm". This is what I like to call "counting for marketing professionals".
> Furthermore, we still have tons of check-in data - 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm and continue to check in.
Isn't that because Foursquare auto-updated to Swarm? Or something? I don't even remember how I got that app on my phone, and I opened it maybe twice. Check-ins (or something) appear to be fully automatic, there's no need to even open the app, and the only reason I haven't deleted it yet is because I'm too lazy. I'm dead serious here. I loved Foursquare and used it over Yelp (making my friend Yelp Community Manager unhappy), but now I find it completely worthless.
EDIT:
[0] made me finally remove Swarm. I don't need an app I don't use eat my power while I still haven't bought that powerbank to be able to play Ingress longer.
> 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm and continue to check in
You/Foursquare really should clarify exactly what you mean by this - we keep hearing how "successful" Swarm is but it seems most [former] users (including me) and their friends (including mine) stopped using it when (or shortly after) the switch happened.
Right now Foursquare sounds like Google in the early days of Google+ where they were touting how much people were posting but everybody was saying they never saw any activity in their stream.
There is some sort of automated checking in going on; I haven't checked in even once in Swarm, and I've been asked by my friends if I'm a fan of this change because apparently, I've been checking in all over the city.
Are you sure about the 90%? I've been a hardcore user and I don't use it since Swarm. And most of my friends don't use it anymore. People will slowly get out of it, tips will be ages old and somethings else will take over the place. I'm just sad that I put so much energy to get new places onto the map and write tips and you just make them fade away...
> 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm
Really? I find that extremely hard to believe that 90% of users would download a second app. That would be a super huge success if true. Or how do you define 'checkin user'? Someone who checks in every day? At least once a week? etc
but I HATE that once in swarm, you bounce me back to Foursquare to see what's good here, after not allowing me to check in in Foursquare. It's so maddening.
The thing is, in practice bouncing directly to that view in another app is about the same as bouncing to a separate view in the same app. Try it with the new Foursquare + Swarm. I was just as skeptical at first, but it really does work pretty well. Honestly here's the old flow:
1. Hit check in
2. Pick venue
3. Type text, pick people you're with, etc
4. Hit confirm
5. Tap through insights
6. Tap to venue page
Now here's the new flow:
1. Hit check in from Foursquare's Here tab
2. Venue's selected, just tap your text, pick friends/sticker
3. Hit Check in
4. Swipe through insights, click "View in Foursquare"
It's honestly fewer steps when you think about it, thanks to the fact that the checkin flow is much faster + we know where you are with better confidence.
I completely agree with all points. I used to check-in every time I went somewhere, but now without the mayorship, badges, etc., I don't do anything anymore. I actually haven't opened Foursquare in about a week now.
Not sure why they were so excited about losing functionality and fragmenting their user base.
Also agree, for me the mayorships are what kept me checking in to my regular places, I kinda feel like the Swarm split killed Foursquare. Their loss I guess.
Ridiculously type-A people can't see a game without wanting to win it.
That's at least what got me on foursquare. Really sad to see points go. Every time I traveled I'd try to top my high score and I really think it helped.
Exactly! The transition was also handled poorly. How annoying was it to have an unfamiliar Swarm pop-up anytime you wanted to check-in on Foursquare? How annoying is it that all your badges are gone? These new stickers seem cool, how do I earn them?
I mean, I love the new spontaneous event planning feature, sure. But really, all Swarm did was add a tab and some stickers. I honestly feel as if a simple redesign including those two features would have sufficed. Instead, they made a huge gamble based on data and didn't really think about how the current users would adapt.
I've stopped using 4sq when they forced to check in through Swarm.
Swarm was constantly monitoring me and eating the battery. At least in Foursquare app you could turn of the 'Radar'.
FYI you can go into iOS preferences -> General -> Background App Refresh and turn off apps that you don't want to run in the background. I've done that with Swarm with no problems, and you can do it with other apps too (Facebook?)
I recall seeing a data presentation on 4square a few months ago, and the numbers suggested that check-ins were tapering. They definitely realized that all their corporate value was in the data.
Perhaps they are trying to avoid the split issues from Netflix? I think they needed to give the Foursquare name to the Yelp-killer so that people would know about it. The space is too crowded to start from scratch. And Yelp is ready to be killed.
Why? Is that your personal sentiment on their company, or are you suggesting their business isn't successful? Who's their biggest competitor? They killed Citysearch, and Sheckys, and all the other websites that used to dominate that space, but I can't think of another company that comes close to their brand awareness apart from Google, who probably won't dominate since it's not their primary function.
Yelp's ratings, reviews, recommendations, and tips aren't very good for food, bars, and things to do. I've always found Foursquare's to be much higher quality.
I think the parent was suggesting that Yelp is good enough. When you have a brand as recognizable as Yelp and viewed as "good enough" then it becomes nearly impossible for a competitor to beat them by simply being better.
You have to be different and I'm not sure what needs to be different about Yelp.
1 - The recommendations are not personalized. We are getting more and more accustomed to personalization. I love FreshDirect, but I don't trust their anonymous ratings either. Same with SeamlessWeb.
2 - The Yelp reviews are frequently gimmicked by advertisers.
I have been using Foursqaure for years in NYC, and I think it is really useful for finding new places and picking food on the menus. Checkins, at the end of the day, are a means to an end. Mayorships/Badges/Game Mechanics/etc. might have made their app more viral (I stress might), but it appears there was never going be a way to monetize them, hence their "pivot"
This is how I see it now:
1) If you still live in a major metropolitan area (like NYC, San Fran) then the service is still useful (probably more useful with this new design)
2) If you do not live in a major metropolitan area, Foursqaure is pretty much useless - but it always was and always will be.
3) Now that they removed checkins, I dont expect to ever get recommendations better than what I am currently getting, because I am not downloading swarm.
The fact that they removed checkins from their core app seems really crazy to me - not because I thought checking in were useful, but more because the whole concept around the new app (I think?) is their machine learning algorithms leverage their huge database to provide great recommendations. With Swarm, not only did they add friction to creating more of this data easily (I have to switch apps to do it), Swarm was actually pretty buggy and doesnt appear to be gaining user adoption (per app store reviews, which are obviously subjective).
Disclaimer: I rarely use Yelp, and never use it in NYC because of Foursqaure
Piggy-backing: They want reviews and tips right? I rarely check-in on Yelp, but on the rare occasion I do, I'm probably also writing a review and uploading photos.
Why on earth would you make a whole separate app for a single button and modal? And what incentive do I have to participate?
Imo this is one of the worst business moves I've seen.
Old 4sq? Loved it. New 4sq and swarm? Won't bother.
I may sound harsh but this is how I feel as a user. Foursquare had a perfect mix of social, gamification and information. It made you want to be part of its network.
As for swarm, I don't even understand how they thought that it would make a nice name except that it is marginally better than herd. Why a human would want to be part of a swarm?
Yes, and the article reads like an advertisement. I generally like reading AVC posts because there's often some thought-provoking questions or other insight with broader application. Not so on this one. I guess the take-away point with this one is going to be long-term, watching to see if they're successful in using empty buzz to generate an exit.
Last year's round of financing was primarily a loan from Silver Lake. Loans (venture loans), on a company/asset that hasn't got genuine revenues is really expensive, both the interests, and size – I'm assuming it's an interest accruing loan (no way can FourSquare pay cash interests). This scenario should be eating everyone's returns.
The post definitely comes across as a 'Hey, look at us!', the new logo, new apps, is also a sign that FourSquare wants to transmit the message of 'We are still alive and doing 'cool' stuff', but my understanding is that they are trying not to appear stale, which to me they are. I don't think the top line operational metrics are doing that well. I think all parties are trying to save the day with some type of 0.8x-1x cash invested sale price. I even think that is ambitious. Do startups that are doing well market themselves as 'The New Twitter', 'The New Facebook', 'The New Google', no – something isn't working. Time will tell.
I don't buy the privacy argument. Its an inherently extroverted market so you split your apps into an introvert app that no one in the market will want to use and an extrovert app. Why?
I don't buy the assertion that the small segment of the population that was into 4sq would be into privacy. They're optimizing the experience for people that don't exist beyond the initial fad-explosion.
I would extend my remarks that its a two phase operation where the initial phase is all friends and family and social, but it rapidly converts to astroturfing, basically geo-aware semi-stealthy advertising. Its twitter, as a self selected spam delivery service, but location aware. Not sure how that fits into the privacy angle. This is going to be missed insight on HN because there are so many early adopters here who will remember nostalgically the good old days of being the first on a new service before the masses and then astroturfers invaded and destroyed it.
I got really fed up with the forced move to Swarm a while ago, because I only really care about two parts of Foursquare -- a log of my own checkins, and tips at places once I've already arrived. I generally use Yelp or Google for discovering-new-venues, e.g. "search, nearby, chinese restaurant".
I ended up deleting both apps; I'll give it a try again in a few weeks to see if the integration got better, but it felt like I was really being forced into a (for me) worse experience. The Swarm app would lock up or otherwise be unresponsive.
I'm using Foursquare mainly to make new friends and find interesting people/places. They just made that more difficult. Would have loved if they increased the friends number limit, and made it easier to communicate with other members.
Won't remove my account but will stop using it. I wonder how their performance will move in the next few weeks. It'll be devastating if their user-base is using it for the same reason (as me) and just stop checkin-ing.
Foursquare, without ratings, serves a different use case than Yelp. I use Yelp to find a place to go. Once I'm there, I (sometimes, but not usually) check Foursquare for menu recommendations.
If I'm going out with friends, I don't want to put too much weight on my own tastes, I want to pick a place that has a high likelihood of appealing to everyone. Ratings are a good proxy for that – I don't have the time or the knowledge to filter tips by my friends' preferences.
Does the new Foursquare solve this? If not, then it can't compete with Yelp. If it does, was it worth the cost of losing future check-in data (due to less than 100% adoption of Swarm)?
As an aside, how are users' check-ins being used to inform recommendations? I would argue that they shouldn't – I've never heard of anyone just checking in on Foursquare to places they like, I think most people use Foursquare as a personal record and as a way to let friends know where they've been.
I think this has been one of the toughest decisions foursquare has made till now albeit in the right direction. Alienating the check-in feature from core-foursquare app might piss off some power users but IMO there is not much value added by check-in for the user. With the amount of data FS has gathered from users up until now will be better utilized via place-discovery. Also I believe that there is a need for this kind of service which we can use to discover places globally rather than depend on something like Yelp which is mostly US centric. On improvement side, I think they should make check-ins using Swarm as easy as possible in one tap. Currently they ask to select/write lot of optional stuff while check-in which slows down the process.
I don't agree at all with the "so we needed to separate apps to do that" argument.
Is it that difficult to make a imediate check-in a standard private info and a review + aggregate check-ins a standard public info?
Only your friends know you did a check-in right now at that restaurant. But everyone who look at that restaurant on Foursquare can see your review (if you did one) and how many checkins you, as the author of the review has there. As well as how many check-ins total that restaurant has from any users.
It looks like a wrong strategy to me. It is as Facebook would decide to separate in two different apps (and brands) its newsfeed and its fanpages.
I'm wondering if anyone is considering building a new version of what Foursquare used to be. If this were was built and done well and had a point system, mayorships, badges, etc. and allowed me to browse and export my old check-ins, I would use it, and I'm sure you'd get a reasonable initial userbase just off of disgruntled Foursquare users.
It's certainly not a small project. I'm not sure how you get the initial list of locations. I also know Foursquare collects data about wifi networks to pinpoint your location, and that may be hard to replicate. But there's definitely a void here to be filled.
With Foursquare I used to make pretty interesting friends by friending people at the same venue. I had a lot of fun following and meeting and commenting with a fashion teacher who bounces between NYC and Korea, a NJ man stuck going to the hospital regularly, etc.. With Swarm that has been completely removed and you only see people you know and only half the people I knew even transferred over to the new app. I don't even know what Foursquare is for any more, an attempted Yelp clone, I guess, but I just use Yelp for that instead because it is better.
Can anyone explain the point of Foursquare? I live in rural Scotland, I ended up muting or ignoring friends who did this "I've just checked in <somewhere fancy>" through Foursqaure. It just got really annoying, I don't really care about where my pals are "checking in to". Please enlighten me.
It's much more useful in a dense urban area. You can e.g. see that your friend is on the same event as you. Or in a caffee two blocks from you. Or in a cinema watching a movie, so you now have a conversation topic.
One of my experiences of using Foursquare is when a friend of mine checked in to a particular takeout food venue we fancy. A notification came, and a guy sitting next to me got his phone and call the mentioned friend to also buy food for all of us.
Such random situations were the main value of Foursquare to me.
3.2Ghz i7, 16GB Ram, SSD Windows, landing page seems ok, even with the processor on power-saving mode. Does your browser's CPU count increase significantly?
Yes 100%. I'm using Chrome. I could by any plugin or extension that I'm using (Chrome Helper is 89%) Flashblock, AdBlock etc. On the other side, timeline says that I my FPS is below 30 with many spikes caused by render and paint. Hmmm.
Now that they've chosen the foursquare name, which is synonymous with checkins, for their Yelp clone, it seems like they haven't thought out...
1. If the checkin users leave because Swarm is stupid and eliminates everything fun (mayorships, badges, reading all the tips without going to another app, seeing who else is checked in besides your friends), who is going to keep supplying them with behavioral data? Not casual users, who won't open the app and show their location at all until they're looking for a recommendations. In terms of data, casual users are takers, while the check-in users are givers.
2. Foursquare super users (their community of people who applied for edit privileges on the venue data) are probably all avid check-in users. Without them, junk venues and spam may overwhelm.
3. How do they really expect to attract enough users who want to use the new foursquare now that the app is a completely different thing? What's their differentiator from Yelp? To me it just seems like it's Yelp but with shorter reviews. Everyone who didn't use foursquare before because they hated check-ins isn't going to even know they killed check-ins and will still stay away.
I think this whole plan might have had a chance if they'd left foursquare alone as their data generator, and launched a new app with a new name for their Yelp clone. At least then they'd have a new chance to introduce themselves and try to attract the mass audience they're going for.