Oh master, please teach an unworthy soul the path to the true enlightenment you must be experiencing everyday while being close to the metal, because this fool was blinded by the promises of fat runtimes that can deliver business value in a shorter amount of time without having to worry about the cost of virtual table dispatches, memory leaks, buffer overflows or differences in the memory models and libc versions of the underlying operating system.
> For system programming its not cool to abstract the machine too much.. we've learned that lesson the hard way (see the big projects like hadoop in manage languages for an example)
Oh master, please do say what's wrong with Hadoop, one of the best and most successful pieces of open-source infrastructure. Truly you must know of a better alternative that isn't burdened with the cancer that is the JVM.
Also, you must mean something different when you're saying system programming, because in my dictionary, Hadoop ain't it. Not a native english speaker here, must take some lessons apparently.
You are probably using Hadoop and not developing it?.. and by the way i was not saying anything against it.. on the contrary.. its a very big respectable project in java.. but if we get into the storage layers for instance, we can find a lot of problems, with memory pressure for instance, because you are paying (without asking for) for the java runtime inner abstractions
Let me ask this diferently? how many Big mission-critical sucessfull projects you see that are not implemented in unmanaged languages like C/C++ ?? Browsers, OS, Databases , speech-libraries, Neural Nets ??
Hadoop happens to be in Java as Lucene and Sorl, because thats what Doug Cutting choose as his language,and this guy is a monster.. If Hadoop was created in something like C++, you can bet that it would have much more success than its having now (as you would probably be able to embedd even in smartphones)
Also java is almost there, because at least it has a type system.. but it started to popularize ideas from the Smalltalk, and Self, wich are good to be well known.. but nowadays, we have too many of them.. (and people seeing Rust ask for more of them?)
The problems that Rust are trying to solve, are very hard.. and we have enough choices for managed languages(java, c#, go, javascript, python, ruby).. but almost none for languages that do the core of our IT infrastructure like C/C++..
My comment was just to point out that there are a whole generation of programmers that were taught not to think about allocations, with everything automated for them.. its cool to have those tools around? of course, its nice to have choice! but not having any other options for much of what we do, and then when something cool like Rust shows up.. not being able to reconize it for what it is.. because you know.. you are expecting that any modern language must have a GC or not have generics or macros like some comments i have seen in this thread... its just plain nonsense..
Not only Rust can be used to those tasks, but also it take in consideration a lot of research in languages and type systems..
I was not saying those languages are bad per se (but used in wrong problem spaces not suited for them).. only that some developers are too much alienated and do not know what they are talking about well as their critiques shows..
edit: about Hadoop and system programming -> what is HDFS? distributed storage, distributed networks, consensus protocol, etc ?
The layer that hadoop present to the platform user are definitly not system programming, but the lower levels of the platform wich is what hadoop is made of is
The "oh master" is every bit as juvenile as you think his comment was. I was actually intrigued by what he said (and rewarded when he expanded upon his idea below), and don't think it deserved the flurry of down-votes your condescending comment probably brought it.
You're proving the point, here. The "enlightenment" IS that you can achieve type safety and "business value in a shorter amount of time" WITHOUT the overweight JIT'd runtimes.
Obviously your condition that the answer to your question be a project that is used by as many people as Hadoop is ridiculous given the different language maturity levels you're comparing. But ignoring that requirement, servo is a big project, written mostly in Rust, that (in my opinion) demonstrates that 'you can achieve type safety and "business value in a shorter amount of time" WITHOUT the overweight JIT'd runtimes'.
In which language can you get all of that in a shorter amount of time? Rust? I'd have thought that it is still too early to say, but maybe there have been a lot of reports of that even by now.
> For system programming its not cool to abstract the machine too much.. we've learned that lesson the hard way (see the big projects like hadoop in manage languages for an example)
Oh master, please do say what's wrong with Hadoop, one of the best and most successful pieces of open-source infrastructure. Truly you must know of a better alternative that isn't burdened with the cancer that is the JVM.
Also, you must mean something different when you're saying system programming, because in my dictionary, Hadoop ain't it. Not a native english speaker here, must take some lessons apparently.