Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

This topic is radioactive. No matter how kind and understanding you are, many people on many sides will misinterpret your statements and demonize you. The only way to win is not to play.

And yet, because I want to further the discussion, I will play...

I think the most effective way to reduce discrimination in tech is to go underground. Do not think of yourself as a crusader for (insert topic here). Keep your identity small[1] and simply attack bad ideas no matter where they come from[2]. Blind yourself when evaluating candidates. Make sure that you do not know the name of the person applying for a position, since that information highly correlates with their race and gender. Musicians figured this out long ago: all that matters the sound. Likewise, with programmers all that matters is the code. If your code is good, you are good. If it's not good, be glad: you get to learn something new. Appreciate it, because until recently, learning new things was a rare event.

I think this mentality can help us not only with this specific problem, but with similar problems that we will encounter in the future. We owe it to each other and ourselves. We need to advance our field and pursue excellence no matter where it comes from, no matter where it leads to.

1. http://paulgraham.com/identity.html

2. Likewise, endorse good ideas no matter where they come from. If it helps your ego, think of it as taking advantage of your enemies.




Broadly speaking, that's all true, but I have to take a little exception with this:

Likewise, with programmers all that matters is the code. If it's good, you are good.

There's a bit more to it in my experience; I've met some developers who were good at producing code, but less effective at understanding requirements, or working within teams, or accepting that they might have to spend time on tasks they don't want to.

In that sense, it's difficult to hire without getting to know someone at least a little, which implicitly means knowing their gender and race. I think the better approach is to just "not be biased" in the first place. Harder than it sounds, no doubt.


I can certainly get behind what you say. I don't have the time/willpower to spell out my position in detail, but I do agree that there are practicalities that need to be ameliorated. Thank you for elucidating them.


I agree, a properly blinded selection process is a very good idea.

This doesn’t really do anything about information asymmetries and existing networks. Also, it doesn’t change anything about that part of the selection process where you actually have to meet in person or at least talk.

Blinding can necessarily only ever be a tiny part of any any solution.

I would argue that specifically seeking out certain groups and advertising to them that a position is open and that they would be the perfect candidates would be a good idea. (Please note that I’m not arguing for ads in pink to specifically target women or some bullshit like that. If you already have ads they should already work irrespective of gender, race, etc.)

Often it’s a problem that people do not know that they can apply or they might think applying is not for them. They might also not be aware that someone is looking because they are not part of existing networks.

Despite all of that it will inevitably always be easier to hire people you know and those people will tend to be very similar to each other. This is not even intentionally sexist, but the consequences are icky.

This means that even targeted advertising for open positions and a completely blind selection process will not solve this. Both of those things would still be excellent if implemented, though.

(This is a common misunderstanding so I should address it right away: Please note that when I talk about targeted advertising I do not mean that the selection process itself should give an advantage to those who are targeted by the advertising. Sometimes even that might be worthwhile strategy, but I’m arguing that candidates, once they apply, should all be treated exactly the same and that the selection process should be blind to name, age, race insofar as that is possible. Targeted advertising is just the acknowledgement that the process by which potential candidates get to know about open positions right now is far from random and fair and it attempts to correct that.)


Is it?

For me, this is a topic I find easy to have nuanced and interesting conversations about in person but not online.




Consider applying for YC's W25 batch! Applications are open till Nov 12.

Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: