My first thought is that the monitors would be way too far away for someone with poor eyesight like myself. Which reminded me...
At my last dentist appointment I was thinking about how comfortable the chair was and wondering whether you could set up a workstation with one (perhaps with totally separated right and left hand keyboards so your arms rest at your sides?) To make it work, I think you'd need monitors on like boom arms essentially suspended above you. Anyone tried something like this?
I remember a visit to the dentists where the local anesthetic went into a vein/artery/something and I nearly passed out - the dentist activated some feature of his dental chair that rapidly put me in a position where my feet were higher then my head - helping keep me conscious.
I would quite like that feature to help me cope with some conference calls. It could even be automated - if I haven't said anything in 10 minutes kick the chair back...
For those who want to know about that particular chair, it's a Zero-gravity Chair from Human Touch. I've got a much older version of that chair, and it's kinda busted, but when I have the floor space set up for it, it's an awesome recliner.
Big problem though: it rotates its full height to the horizontal so you have to have it practically in the middle of an area so it can lean back and not hit the wall.
This makes me wonder, would it be better for your posture to lay on your back, while looking straight up at a screen? I mean, go lay on a carpet floor or on your bed, flat on your back, with your knees bent for comfort. Then imagine a screen a couple of feet in front of your eyes, and a keyboard/mouse angled as well.
Wouldn't this give you perfect posture? It forces your back, neck and head to be straight. You can't lean forward because gravity forces your head into position. The above chair most likely offers some similar benefits since it's reclined so far back.
It felt great at first, but there was two major problems for me:
- with the laptop desk I had to slide under it each time I wanted to use the computer and grab the external keyboard, which isn't instantaneous like getting up/sitting down.
- I was waaaayyyy too sleepy lying on my bed. Had 2 minutes micro-naps all the time.
Right now I still often program in my bed, but with the screen vertical and at eyes height on the laptop desk, and my back resting against a bean-bag chair. It's much more comfortable than a standard desk-chair combination, I recommend people try it.
I avoid the use of a mouse, however, and my laptop is configured to be very keyboard-friendly, so there's also that to be taken into account. Using a mouse isn't impossible, but I'm much more performant without one.
That looks really comfortable, but it'd probably be annoying to get in and out of it, not only for the steepness of the chair, but also because of all the cords.
My dad is a dentist, and when he updated his equipment in his office, he brought home one of the chairs (without all of the extra attachments). It took 3 moving guys to lift the damn thing, and it sat in our finished basement for half a decade.
It was kind of comfortable, but it was from the 70s (and was a terrible shade of mint green) so it wasn't super ergonomic. It was fun to ride up and down on, though.
There are a lot of folks on /r/mechanicalkeyboard that like this setup. I wanted to put one together but I have been on the massdrop request list for a little while now. Buying the parts for one KB is cost prohibitive. I am going to make an oak/cherry case for mine.
If you have access to a 3d printer (to make the cases) you won't save much by going through massdrop. It is convenient though (says someone who has bought one from two different drops).
Another ergodoxer ordered his own parts and they weren't much more than massdrop
Ergodox[0] provides split keyboard kits. There are some boom-style mounted monitor workstations vaguely in the vein of the NovelQuest Emperor[1] but I have yet to see one at a remotely sane price point.
I also haven't seen the monitor mounts discrete from built-in seating, though it doesn't seem outside of the realm of possibility. One could realistically place a large A-frame styled wooden structure over a La-Z-Boy chair and mount generic monitor arms onto it via clip or screw.
So, the main challenges are just carpentry and cable management.
If you don't mind going low tech you don't need the split keyboard. Just use two usb keyboards, one for each hand. You can actually get quite productive that way. I did this for a while before discovering kinesis keyboards.
The downside is that it takes up more space, but it can be quite comfortable.
I've thought about this recently, and the solution is the Oculus Rift or some incarnation of VR. Mounting the monitors is really the only major technical challenge to the setup you describe, and not being able to adjust your distance to mounted monitors would also be a real problem. The current Rift dev kit does not have sufficient resolution to do computer work, and the new units still will not have nearly the pixel density of modern monitors, but what you lose in pixel density you gain in screen real estate.
The rift basically surrounds you in a digital environment, and a few people have already started to show off desktop environments that work in VR. Working at your computer in VR means a few major benefits:
-Your workstation is no longer defined by the physical space it resides in, so it can go with you wherever you want, such as on the train, in your self-driving car, etc.
-Your workspace is no longer limited to several constrained rectangles in front of you - you pay for a single display device and get a workspace that literally surrounds you.
-You are no longer required to sit upright staring forward, something we have generally acknowledged isn't good for you. Some people spend more money on a nice chair than the cost of an Oculus Rift just to save their back. Not needing to stare forward to view monitors means you can work in any orientation, such as a comfortable reclined position. The staple of starship captains and movie hackers, the reclined "dentist" style chair is generally represented in movies as the way people would sit if they had sufficient resources, such as their own hollywood set building team.
-Your workspace is 3D, but not gimmick 3D monitor style - actual immersive 3D, so your applications could take advantage of this for more contextual information and improved workflow.
-You have total privacy - no one can see what you are working on in VR, so no one can look over your shoulder. That is until they make virtual coworking spaces. Which will happen.
-Your workspace can be flying through the cosmos, on a beach in Aruba, on a NASCAR track, or anywhere else you find interesting. You could be immersed in front row seats of a live tennis match while you work on your TPS reports. You could work on new VR applications inside of your new VR applications, for the ultimate inception "yo dawg" moment.
Cons:
We will become like the people in WALLE.
But... will we? I work from home. I have a standard desktop and 3 monitors. I wake up, walk to the kitchen, make breakfast, then walk to the office to work. Google shopping Express delivers my groceries. Amazon delivers most of my other goods. If I had a self driving car I wouldn't even need to participate in my own transportation when it was needed. What does this mean? It means the future is already on it's way to becoming so convenient that a nearly 100% sedentary lifestyle is entirely possible even for first world people who maintain full employment. For people like me, a dentist chair and virtual reality workstation will not make me any more sedentary - I took 300 steps the other day. I can't really hit much lower of a limit on that.
All this means is that I need to take control of my own exercise routine. I need to force myself to work out, as my daily life does not provide sufficient exercise as is. People who do not do this will become fat, like those in WALLE. But being fat is clearly regarded as unhealthy, and our society is becoming aware of the dangers of unchecked obesity. As we get a handle on appropriate health care in the first world, we will need to encourage people to work out.
For now, I ride a bike, but if I had a self driving car that could take me to the gym while I worked on email, perhaps I'd get out and socialize more.
Rant/Aside:
People are pretty dismissive of some of the amazing new tech coming out. Amazon wants to totally eliminate the cost of human labor for delivering goods by using drones, and people just say "but yeah Skynet haha. It's dumb anyway". Virtual reality is actually happening and it's a revolutionary new kind of display device that I know will change the world, and people say "but yeah the virtual boy sucked. this is just more hype, VR will never happen, or it doesn't matter." Robotics in general can change the nature of how we consume things by eliminating all human costs. Robots have fixed costs that can be amortized down to nearly zero for incremental labor, something that is not possible for human workers. We should embrace the technology of the future and figure out how it can be used to do positive things, rather than dismiss it for it's capability to do bad. Skynet jokes are old hat. Lets talk about how much better we can make the future.
Another note: Virtual reality and telepresence can eliminate the "AI problem" for robots - that is, we have been able to make robots that can do neat stuff for a long time, but giving them any intelligence has been a so far intractable problem. A remote human operator could control a robot worker with much more precision than our current AI technology, transporting human intelligence into a robot and eliminating the need for comprehensive AI. VR enables 1:1 viewing of remote 3D environments, something a monitor does not provide. This will lead to both good and bad new technology, but as they say - you take the good with the bad.
I didn’t read it all, but you don’t seem to mention keyboards which we still have to align our bodies to. Voice input is distracting to your immediate environment, gestures are non-optimal because of the lack of tactile feedback.
I'm not sure how you could expect to participate in the discussion without reading the thing you are replying to, but you are correct, I don't mention keyboards. Using a keyboard while in a reclined position isn't really a challenge so I didn't think it needed mentioning - you can put one on a plank across your lap, or use a split keyboard on the armrests. But mounting monitors in a comfortable position is mechanically difficult.
Your workstation is no longer defined by the physical space it resides in, so it can go with you wherever you want, such as on the train, in your self-driving car, etc.
I was referring to this sentence. The input device will probably keep being restricting until we have BCIs.
But I agree that it sounds like a great idea having a virtual half-sphere surrounding you and it would certainly be a relief for the neck at least.
Ah, yeah that makes sense. You would definitely be limited in input while mobile, but at least it would be possible to bring your workspace with you. The good news is, VR has already spawned an incredible amount of research in more natural human computer interaction, so hopefully some of these input problems will be better solved. Most of the input problems being tackled over the last few years have to do with touch screens, which can never be as useful as purpose-built interaction hardware. Keyboards aren't as useful when you can't see them, and VR no longer requires being at a desk, so with any luck we will see real headway in high quality new text input and interaction devices soon.
I'm skeptical about using the Oculus or any kind of fixed monitor screen hovering in front of my eyes; I tend to move back and forth while working, adjusting distance to the screen as the day passes. I think working with screens at a fixed distance would make your eyes stay locked to a certain focus amount for too long and you'd lose the little motions you'd otherwise do, not to mention the extra weight on your head.
The current Oculus prototypes and all future versions of the Rift feature translational head tracking as well as rotational tracking, so leaning forward brings you closer to the content in front of you. The general goal of the system is to avoid having it feel like there is anything fixed to your head, and it appears that they will succeed in delivering this to consumers by the end of this year. Google for their Crystal Cove prototype for more videos showing it off.
As far as the weight, it's not any heavier than a pair of beats headphones, or the gaming headphones I already wear at my desk. It's mostly a display, some lenses, and a bunch of empty space - it's not too heavy. Plus you have the benefit of a more comfortable sitting position.
I've used the crystal cove and I actually had an experience that is pretty much your example. I was in the demo where you fly around and in the cockpit there was a screen down near my legs and to the right that was unreadable from my normal vantage point. When I brought my head forward and turned to the side, I was able to then read the text on the screen. It was really surreal.
i think the real worry is the long-term impact of having your eyes focused at infinity (as they are in the rift). there have been a bunch of reports of people having focusing weirdness after using the rift for a while. not a big deal, sure, but what happens after using the oculus for 5, 10 years?
Sorry, I stopped reading at Oculus Rift. Have you used one? They're pretty intense on the eyes. I'm not sure if this will improve or not though. Also you'd need to look away every 20 mins or whatever is recommended so you wouldn't go crazy shortsighted. Same as screens I guess.
So you stopped reading at the first sentence, but still want to participate in the conversation... excellent.
I have used one. I understand that the current dev kit isn't high res, doesn't have translational tracking, and generally isn't comfortable for long term use. If you hadn't stopped reading halfway through the first sentence you would have seen that I said "the Oculus rift or some incarnation of VR", which was an acknowledgement that the Oculus rift may not be ideal for this when the consumer version is released, but I believe some incarnation of VR will be.
Saying it won't work because you've tried the hurriedly prepared low res dev kit is like saying smart phones will never take off because your QVGA windows mobile 5 phone is too low res for web browsing. Technology evolves if people find it compelling enough to buy it. Every honest reviewer I have read says the Oculus rift is an amazing experience unlike anything we've ever been able to experience. I have no doubt that the 1080p versions they are demoing now will give way to 4k versions in a few years (if not sooner), and that eventually working in a rift will be as comfortable as can be.
It is a problem in the sense that companies could commercialize robots for the home if there were applications for the robots. Currently the hardware is good (Honda first debuted ASIMO 14 years ago). Commercializing the hardware would drive costs down, which would allow us to do more widespread research on AI. Currently a decent robotics research platform costs more than a Tesla Model S, and until recently they were 10x more expensive.
The "AI problem" is the fact that robots don't have many applications until we have AI. The problem can be eliminated by making the hardware useful even without AI. This does not mean people will stop working on AI, just that robotics hardware development can be decoupled from AI development. More robots out there will make it even easier to develop AI for robotic platforms.
Your Adderall comment seems to be a way of poking fun at me, and if so does not seem to contribute to this discussion. I thought I contributed something thoughtful to HN. Would you prefer I just make snarky comments? I left Slashdot years ago so I could find people who make an effort to think and communicate - lets do that here.
I appreciated your comment. Fwiw I think a lot of people here do make an effort to think and communicate. HN has brilliant technical and intellectual discussions interspersed with snide jabs and throwaway put-downs. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater :).
Thanks! Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere. I've been lurking for a long time, and I'm enjoying actually contributing my thoughts today. I hope to make a habit of it. :)
No matter what I do, I can't handle bouncing between screens like that. I use my virtual desktops to organize different tasks if I need to work multiple things at once, but for a given task I want as much visible to me at once as possible.
Saw the "CSAIL" domain and I expected steps 4-20 to describe how to attach an electric motor, some actuators, and software to automatically direct the chair to a specific monitor based on facial recognition from the webcams in each.
One guy had a PC on his loft, and a chair hung with a winch so that he could sit, press a button, and it would pull him up to the keyboard. It was pretty badass...
My wife/business partner also uses one and (begrudgingly) convinced me to ditch my $300+ leather office chair for one.
I'm sold. It's the best option short of sitting on just the ball part (which engages more balance muscles)
The best part is your can't "slump" into the chair if you're feeling tired. The best option at that point it to get up and do something else as opposed to fighting your body and relying on a Lazy-Boy approach.
What I like especially is that when listening to music, or when you're feeling energetic you (subconsciously at times) tend to bounce and roll your butt around on the ball which exercises even more muscles in your back/lower body.
Sitting on just the ball I got pretty good at "slumping", if you grasp it with your thighs and roll backward you can perfectly balance your weight between your torso and legs. No correct posture needed.
How good is the quality on the coasters? The rest of the chair looks good, but those coasters look like cheap plastic ones that probably wouldn't last too long.
Nope, my seat/ball and desk height is correct making that a non-issue for both typing and mouse control (I do more mouse clicking than typing) As long as you measure everything correctly you won't have issues. Also keep in mind the height and depth of your monitor placement. You don't want to be leaning in, or looking down/up all day. Pretty basic ergonomic stuff.
I used to sit on a normal desk chair but it felt wrong. I can sit here for longer without issue, though I still get up every half hour. As long as I ensure my head is touching the back of the chair as well as the bottom of my back (i.e., no hunch), my spine is easily straight and I have absolutely no back problems after working for a long time, which happens on occasion, believe it or not.
Wow, I have that chair, and it gives me back ache after about 5 minutes! There is no lower back support at all, at least for someone my height... Nice to know it works for you though.
This chair is better than the office chairs I've had in previous lives. I think for me the ideal for long periods of work would be a deeper incline but since I get up every half hour or so anyway, it would be a PITA to get up and down.
I'm not perfectly comfortable but I'm more comfortable than is typical.
They actually rest very comfortably. My elbows are on the arms of the chair and my wrists are completely flat against the keyboard. If I had to guess at the angle of my forearm against my upper arm, I'd say it is close to 90 degrees. I don't think this image shows much, but here you go anway: http://i.imgur.com/kDEHDmt.jpg
Yet another discussion about chairs without any mention of active sitting/seating.
Based on my own experience with standing desks and high-end office chairs (the most recent being a Herman Miller Embody, which I ended up selling), I've concluded that I need an office setup that allows me to move throughout the day and not just stand or sit nearly motionless for most of the day.
After trying out all the chairs at my local office furniture stores (yet again) and enjoying a Swopper stool that one of the stores had in their showroom, I'm now planning to order a Swopper Air. The Swopper is the most comfortable active seating solution that I've tried (but I haven't spent hours sitting on it yet).
I hope the Swopper Air works out for me. If not, I'll finally pull the trigger on a LifeSpan TR5000-DT3 treadmill for my standing desk.
I have an Embody and have been considering a sit/stand desk. How many hours/day do you find yourself standing? What does your typical sit/stand schedule look like?
To be honest I don't stand as often as I thought I would. I have no set schedule, just moods. I will stand usually for no more than 1-2 hours at a time (once or twice a day) and find I can only stand for work that does not require deep thought. If I am just coding some normal stuff, researching, responding to emails - all those type things are easy. If I need to really focus on big picture architectural plans (decision with big long term repercussions) then I find myself wanting to sit down for that. Not sure why, just me.
My experience is very similar to keithwarren's. I lift almost every work day, and generally just stand to work out some of the stress in my muscles. I prefer sitting. Some days my shoulders will bug me or something so it's nice to be up and shake around a little bit.
The Embody is just the best :-) People can't believe that a chair could make such a huge difference, but it really does.
i've iterated through an array of desk lamps, but realized the biggest problem is the lack of reflections from walls/ceilings.
so the shield is a big light reflector --- just foam posterboard taped together and hung from a 5-iron and some rope.
the $5 ikea lamps provide nice warm light, and the angular shield makes it feel like you're on a photo shoot with ambient light and minimal self-occluding shadows.
Parts of it, anyway. My desk was next to one of those huge glass walls facing Kiva. We also got reflections from the mirror-like metal paneling on the opposite side of the tower.
I have a design for a suspended reflector tent that is pretty much exactly what you have there. I can't stand shadows and varying illumination when I read or work on electronics.
As someone who's struggled with back + shoulder pain and having gone through a few expensive chairs, now I feel that a correct posture is more important than chair. I have a cheap cookie cutter chair + a thin pillow and I can work much better.
Not advertising anything, just go to Amazon and search "back pain" in books. Probably the first entry is the one. It teaches you how to correct your posture naturally. Or just watch a video from the book author on youtube. I think that technique alone will fix a lot of the problems.
I've been fighting with wrist/back/neck pain for a while now. I always attributed it to working on a laptop on my train commute (1 hour each way) to work. I just watched that video and tried it out at the office, it feels MUCH more comfortable. Thanks for sharing! Hopefully it helps.
I'm glad I could help. I've felt so helpless with back pain in the past that I love to share this book with anyone who's had similar problems. It's hard to imagine that the problem is so trivial, for which we seek really expensive solutions through herman millers & the likes.
How much sport do you do for your back? This setup looks like it's comfortable, but not healthy. I'm not a physician but a friend of mine is, he said this is not a good idea, you need to move your back etc to give nutrition to your spinal discs. I'm using a Swopper as chair, it's quite nice and allows me to move around all day, but it also requires discipline and a bit of back training.
I tend to stand behind the desk during the day and recline on the bed in the evenings. I do find reclining with the suspended monitor is very comfortable (sometimes i'll lie almost horizontal with the monitor directly above me) but I think I'd struggle to do a full days work like that.
Same here, after reading that article a while back I've been working on way to sit like that while still being able to see my monitors well. Please post to HN your setup when you get it done as I am be very interested in how you would pull it off. Thanks!
That keyboard has the aligned key columns, which I think are a big part of Kinesis's advantage. But I also love the two wells for the separated halves, which helps minimize extra motion. Plus the wide variety of thumb keys.
While (ironically) that is exactly the La-Z-Boy from which I watch television and sometimes sleep, it would be an ergonomic disaster for me to work from it.
1. I have a (really) long body and (freakishly IMO) short legs (as in my wife is 6" shorter than me but still has longer legs). If my arms were extended down to the arm rests for typing, fuggedaboutit, I'd be crippled in a week.
2. Due to uncorrectable vision issues, I have a 30" monitor roughly 1' from my face. I would barely be able to read text on the monitor setup you have.
3. Can't use a mouse, can't use a kinesis keyboard sadly.
4. Haven't been able to use laptops effectively for 15+ years. Ironically, tablets are no problem. Go figure that one out.
That said, we seem to share a passion for hoarding gadgets.
We recently moved to the new flat and I had to give up my desk in a hope to do all the coding at work.
Of course you have to do some coding at home, but without a desk it is not so convenient especially that my Linux box is a desktop.
So I ended up having a TV screen instead of a monitor, couch instead of an office chair and having a keyboard on my laps with no desk at all. Kinesis Advantage seems to be specifically designed to be used in this way. It is very convenient and feels ergonomic.
I'm a bit annoyed by the TV which is a bit too far and I have to reduce the resolution for easier reading.
It is fun to see somebody else coding in a similar way.
I don't think reclining is that great for your shoulders / neck since it encourages your shoulders to slump forward and you will be likely to hold your head forward in order to see your monitor properly.
I tried the recliner-desk for a while myself. After a couple months the behavior you described started to take its toll as well. I traded one pain for another.
My eyes aren't good enough to sit that far away from the monitor. I had back pain, and other aches too -- then I decided to just get in shape. I do high intensity circuit training (mix of cardio / strength) 3x a week, and all my physical problems disappeared. I've never felt better.
I often sit at my desk exactly how you are not supposed to: slouched with feet up on the desk...but b/c my core is strong, it doesn't ever phase me. I think most people will find if they just get in shape, a lot of these desk fads will just go away for them.
Do you mean amongst the cables at the side of the desk or the thing that looks like a makerbot mounted on a turtle/robo-vacuum at the front to the left of the rucksack?
I like MIT dormitory culture. As freshman you have to decorate the dorm room yourself. You have to build the bed frame, the table yourself. I love that culture.
I actually like that setup, as I prefer a chair that leans back as well. And the area looks cozy...I like some clutter, I feel more comfortable in spaces like that.
Here are my suggestions for the rest of your setup:
1. Monitor arms. That will allow you to move you monitors around easily. I use one from 3m.
2. Deeper desk. I use an old kitchen table that is really just a thick 4x8 sheet of plywood.
I injured my foot a few months ago, and as a result had significant swelling in my foot. The best solution is to elevate the foot, which has led me to working much of the day from a recliner (I work from home), with the laptop in my lap. It's been surprisingly comfortable. I'm not sure I could do it forever though.
Hospital beds start at about $500. I might have to put together a kickstarter campaign for a hospital bed, downward facing monitor, and split keyboard setup. The only thing I can't figure out is the mouse. Would a motion tracking mouse that follows your nose be too much?
I think I'm not off topic, but what's the name of your keyboard? I'm considering the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard as a replace for my current Microsoft 4000, in order to relief me from pain on the back of my right shoulder...
Looks like a Kinesis Advantage. I've long been tempted to get one, but could never convince myself that it was worth $300.
Seems to me that the recent Microsoft keyboards are kind of mushy. I use an Apple wireless keyboard at work. It has a relatively light touch, and is comfortable on my lap. At home, I'm breaking in a tenkeyless keyboard with Cherry MX Brown switches. There's something satisfying about banging away on it. I bet the Blue switches would be even better, but I was afraid they'd make too much of a racket.
I've gotten a bit of WASD claw from first-person shooters, gorilla arm from poor mousing form, and gamer thumb from too much Xbox. Those injuries (if I can even call them that) didn't prompt me to search for a new keyboard or an ergonomic game controller. I just backed off a bit on the offending activity.
Ergonomic devices would help, but you are wise to back off a bit on those activities. To me a dream keyboard would be Microsoft 4000 with softer keys, and most importantly, with the number pad split.
I know the guy says he tried a standing desk...but I wonder if he calibrated it correctly? It's more than just standing in front of a desk, you have to get all the measurements correct as well.
On a lot of La-Z-Boy chairs, there are two wingnuts that can adjust the back tension; I would think tightening those down would make operating the chair more stable while wheels were engaged.
it creates ambient lighting, and feels like being on a photo shoot.
it's just some foam posterboard tapes together, but it does a good job of reflecting light from many angles, so if you are reading/writing on the desk, you don't get shadows from your head/arms
i highly recommend those $5 ikea lamps too, they give off nice warm light
My dream chair is a lazy-boy with two trackballs in both armrests, a swiveling 24" display and a swiveling wireless keyboard attached to the base of the left armrest. A pivoting right armrest for easy enter/exit like an airplane.
Just sit, rest your arms, control the display with the trackballs and when you need to code, slide the keyboard in and type furiously without moving your head from its resting position, like looking to the ceiling.
If you place a laptop on your legs, the neck will suffer after some time.
At my last dentist appointment I was thinking about how comfortable the chair was and wondering whether you could set up a workstation with one (perhaps with totally separated right and left hand keyboards so your arms rest at your sides?) To make it work, I think you'd need monitors on like boom arms essentially suspended above you. Anyone tried something like this?