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Ask YC: Experiences with founder burnout?
37 points by h34t on Oct 17, 2007 | hide | past | favorite | 38 comments
One of the reasons I've started using this forum is because I'm burnt out. I've been in a product development startup in China for the past 10 months (as in the design and engineering of real, physical products to ship back to Canada/the US) and it's been the most exciting and learning-intensive time of my life, but I've hit a wall and now it looks like this means the end for all of us here. We were undertaking a pretty ambitious project (though we only learned of its true difficulty along-the-way), and it's still technically possible and definitely marketable -- but requires a lot more money and time than can be committed given my pretty-much-incapacitated state.

Burnout feels incredibly illogical, because you can't do what you tell yourself you want to do. You can have a conversation with someone and get right fired up about an idea in-the-moment, but when you try to execute, a blanket of fog comes over your brain and you sit there like a deer in headlights. You can hardly perform at the level of a 10-year-old, no matter how much you tell myself that you want to continue. You try to explain this state to someone else and you get a blank stare; how could you be so "disabled" when you still look reasonably healthy and vivid in conversation? It's tough for them to see this as anything other than a conscious choice, on your part, to quit. But, you know that you keep getting up and trying to hack away at things -- and you keep hitting the same wall. Thankfully, my partners and investor are being very understanding, and they are the ones with the most to lose.

This is really, really tough -- my amazing and talented staff, my dreams and plans, all the relationships we've built, my reputation -- all of it is now at the mercy of the buzzing of my neurons and the chemicals shooting through my veins, caused by the way I've handled myself over the past 10 months ("full steam ahead, I'm 24 and invincible!").

Has anyone here burnt out before, or seen it happen? Has YC learned of any warning signs?

I would guess that being a part of YC itself would help prevent this, because of the opportunity for social support -- it can be really tough not having friends who know what it's like to be where you are, doing what you are.

As for me, I am pretty confident that eventually I'll be able to put myself back together and start something new again -- but I won't be operating anywhere near 100% any time soon, even though I certainly can't sit still as there's still rent to pay and I'm dead broke from having no salary all year.




A little hypothesis:

Burnout is your subconscious's way of telling you that you're on the wrong track.

I've found that every time I've felt burned out - whether in writing, coding, startup, life - it's because I was working on something that ultimately was going nowhere. I needed to revisit my assumptions, yet my conscious mind didn't know that. Burnout was a way for my subconscious to say "This isn't going to work, you're not working on the important stuff, take a step back and look at the big picture."

When writer's blocked, I delete the last 3 paragraphs I've written and take the story in another direction. This has almost always cured my writer's block; when it doesn't I delete the last page and take the story in another direction.

When coder's blocked, I revert to my last svn commit and start again, usually with a smaller task. I've thrown away up to a week's worth of work this way, which is another lesson: commit early and often. Commits should be an hourly or minutely process, not something you do after a whole bunch of work.

When blocked in general, I think about the last design decision I made and revisit. Oftentimes, if I'm blocked entirely and can't even get started on implementing a feature, it's because the feature is ill-conceived and needs to be redone. Maybe it's done with incorrect assumptions about how users will use the problem, or maybe it just doesn't serve any purpose. Revisit whether you need the feature at all.

If you find you can't work on your startup at all, maybe it's a sign that your startup is on the wrong track. Revisit your idea. I'm actually at that stage with mine: we scrambled to get a demo ready for YC, but now that I want to procrastinate and avoid work (our market is people who want to procrastinate and avoid work), I find that I don't want to use our product. But I've got some ideas about how to backup and try a different approach, and now I want to try them out and see if they can get me procrastinating with the startup itself.


Interesting -- your hypothesis is almost exactly what I wrote down in my journal just this morning, when thinking about how I let my "commitment to the business" override so many other thoughts/desires/gut-reactions. Some level of compromise is needed to get anything done in real life, but too much is too much.


What has worked for me in the past is an experience that combines intense physical exertion combined with attaining a difficult goal combined with an inspiring view. In other words, I hop on my bike and ride up a mountain and refuse to stop until I get to the top and bask in the incredible view. This has worked wonders for me in helping to gain real perspective on my situation, and I think the physical exertion and intense focus needed to make it to the top of the mountain help "reboot" my brain. Another method, during the winter, is cross-country skiing. (In the Bay Area, we have the largest X-country ski area in North America 2.5 hours North of SF.)

The bottom line, you need to completely focus on something entirely different than your problem at hand to give your subconscious a chance to recuperate and give you a solution and new inspiration.


I wonder how many other hackers are cyclists? I think it's the perfect hacker sport - there's lots of tech, you can go alone if needs be, but it can also be fun to join a team, or participate in events like races.

There are things I don't care for here in Innsbruck, but I have some nice trails about 5 minutes away from home, and plenty of tall mountains to ride up.


Wow, cycling in the Austrian Alps! It is so ridiculously beautiful in Austria - and beyond category climbs are easy to find. :) The best cycling I've done to date was in Colorado along the Continental Divide in the Boulder area. But I haven't gone riding in Austria yet (just skiing and visiting) and would love to some day.



We used to do night rides in Oregon, off road. It's a lot of fun, although it can be kind of creepy to be out in the middle of nowhere in the dark, so it's best done with others.


yeah, rides are always better with others. even better with 500 others =)


Works on foot too. In SV I'd particularly recommend the trails off Page Mill and Skyline. I run on them every day when YC is in CA.

http://www.openspace.org/

From the top of Black Mountain, you can simultaneously see SF, San Jose, and the Pacific.


be prepared for some running partners, delivering elevator pitches. ;)


Some of the best experiences I ever had were climbing volcanoes and hiking through the highlands of Guatemala. Time to re-visit this I think.


When I was in grad school, I went through exactly what you are experiencing. My advisor sat down with me and said:

"Take a month off. Go hang out with family and friends. Don't think about work. Eat well & exercise. Then we will talk."

It was the best advice I ever got. I realized while I was away that I was working on the wrong problem, and that with some reframing there was a way out. You can't get that perspective while you are in the middle of things.


You had a good adviser. Mine would grudgingly look the other way if I took a couple weeks of vacation (at best), or become actively hostile (at worst).

In any case, it's excellent advice. The only reason I was able to finish grad school was because I took a couple well-timed vacations when I was in exactly the mental state that the OP describes.


The fact that you can write such an articulate article tells me that you are much LESS burnout than you think you are. Give it some time and take care of the other two legs of your three-legged stool first (take care of your health and your family which I suspect are also in need of some repair). If you don't have your health and you don't have the support of your family, you don't have a fighting chance to re-start your career. Also, you cannot look at your career one job at a time, it is a piece-wise continuous journey that happens to have multiple rest stops. The following is my experience, hope it helps.

Why Startups Fail and Why Gigamon Should've Too http://www.lovemytool.com/blog/2007/09/why-startups-fa.html

--Denny--


Thanks for your advice, and the interesting read.

I've had the past couple of weeks off to think about everything, and I think that's why my posting is anywhere near articulate... Two weeks ago I talked to my partners and they recommended that I take some time to think about what I need to make myself healthy again, totally irrespective of what impact that would have on the business.

It was today when I tried getting back into work again by focusing on the most simple of tasks, and I got deer-in-headlights syndrome again -- for the first time since I started my break. One moment back-in-the-game and it felt like I'd had no break at all. So, more time is needed I think.

I agree 100% that health and relationships are most important. I noticed that I was no longer responding to emails from family and friends, and my health was declining. I tried to take action on these more recently but it was a little too late to have enough impact.

If the business was anywhere near stable, it would be a different story, but in our product development we're currently facing an uphill battle wearing rollerskates -- if we're not advancing, we're sliding backwards due to our burn rate and the seasonal nature of our market.


It takes a little bit of humor and a lot of humility (emphasizing the latter). And from your replys to the other comments, it sounds like you are well on your way already.

I am writing my own experience as a Crashed-and-"Turned" entrepreneur and I have a slot to publish next Thursday (10/25). Please check back.

<a href="http://www.lovemytool.com/blog/startup-for-less.html">Startup for Less - Survival Guide for Bootstrapping Entrepreneurs</a>

Good luck.

--Denny--


After reading the various comments, I was motivated to write up my own experience on how to survive Founder burnout. Below is my post.

http://www.lovemytool.com/blog/2007/10/riding-a-bike.html

Please enjoy.

--Denny--


If you haven't done so, take a proper vacation. Leave your current environment behind completely, don't take a computer with you, and don't allow yourself to so much as think about work.

When I was in your situation, I tried to take pseudo-vacations (i.e. I stayed home for a few days, instead of going to work), but they were never enough. Only by forcing myself to make a drastic lifestyle change, was I able to break out of the fog.


Denny is an incredibly smart and dedicated guy, and I think you should consider his words of advice. It's easy to feel overwhelmed and "deer in the headlights", sometimes you have to step away from things for a bit (maybe a week or so) and just sort of process the whole situation in the back of your head.

Think things through, determine what you need (and where to get it), and move ahead.


You are not burnt out and I have proof. This discussion. A truly burnt out person would not have even bothered. (Kinda like claiming you're over your ex-girlfriend but still wonder what she's doing all day long). The fact that you are here is not an admission of giving up; it is a cry for help. You still really want this.

There is some excellent feedback in this thread. Let me add mine, which may be a little different. I go through what you are experiencing all the time. There are days when I can't stay awake at my terminal. Sometimes I hit a road block and wonder how I'll ever get by. I usually step away for a time, but here is my real secret...

Pick one little thing that needs to get done, no matter how small or unimportant it may seem. If I'm really down, I pick some mundane task like refactoring 25 lines of code, manually updating 50 records, or even changing some naming conventions. But not something big like solving a client-server architecture problem. Hell, that's the reason I'm already down. One other thing - the task must be in the heart of your project; cleaning off your desk or reading a journal don't count. Then do the task. Completely. You'll feel a little better, I promise. The next day, do it again, maybe with a slightly bigger task. And again. And again. Who knows, you may be feeling a lot better before you know it.

I have no idea if my advice can help save your project, but I do know you still want to. Use this group for support (I know I already do) and keep us posted. You are not alone.


Thanks for the comment -- three points to make:

1. I didn't write this in the thick of the battle -- I've already had 2 weeks with most of my responsibilities lifted. This is what's given me the presence of mind to write what I have. Also, the more 'down' I am feeling, the more I tend to write. Writing my thoughts comes naturally to me -- it isn't correlated with motivation or mood or anything of that sort.

2. I think advice on tactical stuff like achieving tiny goals daily can actually be detrimental to a person who's beyond a certain point of burnout, because these little changes can distract you from bigger issues that require bigger solutions. Don't get me wrong though, I appreciate what you're saying and I tried ideas just like you've described for weeks before finally realizing where I was at and talking it over with a mentor (who recommended that I act -- fast -- to prevent further degradation).

3. Maybe what you're sensing is that I still really do want to be successful in life -- because I most definitely do. But as for this business, in reality it requires my 100% commitment before it can budge another inch, because we have some big spending humps coming up and if I can't predict with certainty when I'll be back in the game in full force, it's too risky to front more cash right now... and right now all I can think about are the blue skies I need to be staring at while I take a real break, and how intensely awful this has been on my mind and body and how bad it would be to have it continue, now or in the future. So while on some level I do want this business to be successful, I would have a very hard time committing 100% to be available again at a certain, and fairly soon, date. I think that would be too risky for me, and for the investor.


Just throwing in what has worked for me. Obviously, not universally applicable. Sounds like you have a lot to think about. Best wishes - keep us posted.


My only advice is to make sure you distinguish between short term and long term burnout. I once left an entertaining startup (that was later aquired by Apple) because I thought I was unhappy with the field, the job, the office, the nature of the work. I took two months off between jobs, because that was the only way I felt I could get time off.

At the end of the two months, I have to say, the old job didn't sound so bad anymore. I started grad school afterwards, so I was charged up, but I suspect that the time off was what I really needed. Looking back, it was actually one of the more innovative startups I've ever worked at.

You may be looking at deep long term burnout, but how long as it been since you've walked away from work long enough to reset your head? It doesn't have to be decades - a single year of 10 hour days where you often find yourself at the office on weekends can be enough to cause your mind to rebel and shut down. Think of your head as an employee that has been pushed too hard, and has retaliated by not producing anything.

I've learned to identify my short-term tendency to burn out and distinguish it from true career malaise. Maybe I just need more time off than the average person. I wish I could drive harder, but if I can't, I may as well know that about myself and minimize the damage.


What you're saying makes a lot of sense to me. Unfortunately, we may need to make a decision here before we really know whether it's short-term or long-term burnout, because we have to decide pretty-much-100% whether and when I'm going to be back, before I take my break. If there's too much uncertainty, it's a no-go.

If we had the stability to simply put things on hold, I would definitely take 6-8 weeks off before we decided what to do.


Working 80 hour weeks in a radically foreign country may be a significant part of the problem.

You sound like you need a strong drink. Start with that.

If you are still in China and, damningly, in one of their wretchedly filthy cities. Get out for a while. Go to the country. Go for a run or a walk or get in a sporting fight. Do something human. I have found that I need this antidote to engineering.


I can't work at any place for longer than 6 months. My resume is filled with companies every 6 months. Simply because I wake up with so much stress. My current job I've held longer for a year but it's getting to the point where I'm starting to dread going there despite what great opportunity and work environment it is. To me, this is just the way I'm wired. Take a break, you're in China, go see something. Do two weeks and refocus.


Is it stress or boredom?

Finding a less stressful job doesn't seem like it should be that hard, but maybe I've just been lucky.

What I've found helps is getting some (and setting some) explicit expectations up front. If your company repeatedly violates these, it's probably time to move on.

Recently at the startup I work for, we were doing a big push for launch (80 hour weeks, etc). One night I finally hit a brick wall and just couldn't be there anymore, like when you're just sitting there looking at the screen not able to work. My PM was being slightly a dick and not hearing me on this, so Office Space style I snuck out the back and just left. The team even had a conversation about whether they should fire me over this infraction, as if I'm their 90-hour a week wage slave.

Another guy stuck it out, but resented the company so much for it that he quit a few days later and wrote a scathing letter to the all hands list / posted it on his blog. Point being, don't let anyone push you around.

And if you're a little savvy with clients / marketing yourself, just know that you can always make 2x as much as a full-time job by contracting, where in theory you should have more control over stress, schedule, etc. (ability to choose decent clients / fire sucky ones, etc)


Burnout feels incredibly illogical, because you can't do what you tell yourself you want to do. You can have a conversation with someone and get right fired up about an idea in-the-moment, but when you try to execute, a blanket of fog comes over your brain and you sit there like a deer in headlights. You can hardly perform at the level of a 10-year-old, no matter how much you tell myself that you want to continue.

I think this is your brain telling you that you would rather be doing something else.


As others have said, eat some really healthy food and do some serious exercise. This is the best medicine known to man for burnout.

If I begin to feel even slightly burned out, I make a beeline for Wagamama in Harvard Square (or Faneuil Hall). At the risk of sounding like an advertisement, the combination of the food and atmosphere there are anodyne when I get tired of coding. I hope they expand out from the Boston area soon so you West Coast people find out what you are missing...


It is an art for itself to achieve the right balance in everything you do. Working full power 24/7 is only kids talk (well, and investors talk too). You can do that for a very short time, then you need a break - and suddenly, on average your 24/7 combined with the necessary break comes out as a normal, say, 6/10 job ;o).

We all must learn to listen to our body before it tells us to stop. I experience that all the time in the swimming pool (I do ride my mountainbike, but I also swim since ever): the kids jump in, power themselves out in 5 minutes and have to stop then. The experienced swimmers go 10% slower and last for 2 miles. Do the same! And now take 2 or 3 weeks off. Thats the only way to recharge.


I'm no startup founder, but I find that too much time in the technology trenches has a similar effect on me. I recommend, as do a few of the other posters, some time away, a change of scenery maybe, and good food mixed in with exercise. Then, try again, a bit slower this time. I cross-posted on your piece to http://blog.innovators-network.org The Innovators Network is a non-profit dedicated to bringing technology to startups, small businesses, non-profits, venture capitalists and intellectual property experts. Please visit us and help grown our community!

Best wishes for continued success,

Anthony Kuhn Innovators Network


You seem like a pretty smart guy and this might be bad advice; is there any way you can scale back what you're doing? Can you get something smaller done so you don't have to spend as much and invest as much time and energy?


1. Take time away, find what relaxes you and do it 2. Get your sleep back in order 3. Make sure you're truly eating healthy 4. Workout to relieve the stress 5. Optional - Spiritual needs in order?

The best thing I can say is now that you've had it happen, you'll be much more sensitive to it and can recognize the warnings signs.

Also consider building in regular self-evaluation and relax time, it helps keep everything in balance.


Take as much time off as you need. I personally cant unwind my brain by going biking or sughtseeing. No matter what I do I'll end up thinking about work. I need to do something that keeps my mind on somethibg else. So I'll either read a lot of books, catch up on movies that I want to see or play computer games.


I am definitely with the crowd suggesting some physical exertion.

10 months is a long time to go at full steam, take a few days off and reset. Do not think about work at all, and go physically exert yourself, eat well and relax.

It will vary by the individual dramatically, but I usually find all I need is a few days to reset.

Best of luck


Thanks to everyone who responded to this. I really appreciate everyone taking the time. It's a pretty amazing community going on here!


Eat healthy food and practice sports =)


Yoga can help. Or Tai-Chi, since you're in China.




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