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Nexus 5 to be first smartphone with MEMS camera (phonearena.com)
189 points by codelike on Oct 2, 2013 | hide | past | favorite | 89 comments



This may be a false alarm. The string they found - IMX179 - seems to be actually a Sony sensor part, which is in use on other phones also. (I.E. the Meizu MX3). It appears in the MEMS documentation which is ranked first in Google because their sensor package is based on the IMX179.

However, going by the sample shots from the MX3, it looks to be a good sensor - so hopefully it still has a good camera (my nexus 4 camera produces really bad results sometimes).


iMX is also a Freescale application processor series, though unless they've introduced a new line under that product family I don't think it fits their part number scheme.


Sony's image sensors have had the IMX naming scheme for a few years.


Can't speak about the camera or if this is just a marketing gimmick or not, but I can say that MEMS technology is really cool.

Since the article does a pretty poor job of explaining what MEMS technology can do, it's probably best shown by example, e.g. see this MEMS gear!

http://www.sfu.ca/immr/projects/ensc494-01/acoppin/images/Pa...

And an article here with some more images: http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/action/machines.cfm

What's really fun is when you need to start accounting for, say, the electrostatic interactions between atoms in your gear design! Of course, MEMS devices are probably already in your phone. They're commonly used for accelerometers, e.g. see here http://www.geekmomprojects.com/gyroscopes-and-accelerometers... Cool stuff!


>> What's really fun is when you need to start accounting for, say, the electrostatic interactions between atoms in your gear design!

They do, though often to avoid device failures. Search for "MEMS Stiction"


I was going to mention this. Stiction was the bane of my effort fabricating even the simplest components as an undergrad. My favorite part was how you can realistically suggest using diamond ablative layers and the like. Made for fun conversations to listen in on - invariably it sounds expensive and high tech, regardless of if it's just sacrificial carbon.


My previous employer was a MEMS sensor company. Let me tell you, stiction really is a huge issue for every single player in the industry.


My Nexus 4 paid for itself on Straight Talk within a month by selling my older phone on craigslist. One of the best decisions I have made in a long time.

My wife's Samsung phone is so incredibly foreign to the vanilla Android experience. I have had some recent issues with Google Maps draining my battery, but that was corrected by simply reverting the update. All in all, a great phone. If I destroy it, I can just get a new one for $250. Flops consisted of the wireless battery charge, frictionless glass back that slides, and (original) nubless back that left the speaker against the surface.


> I can just get a new one for $250

Where? I was thinking the same way, not really worrying about my phone, until recently when they lowered the price and cleared out their stock.

Hopefully the 5 will be a similar price point because I don't have a backup decent phone at the moment.


Does straightalk work pretty well nationwide? How does it compare to major carriers?


Wow it's wired. I got an email from Verizon offering me a cheaper plan within 30 minutes of browsing the plans on straight talk? (And googling to find it)

Any chance there's some crazy cookie tracking magic there? Or just a coincidence?


If you did so using your phone, they could have used endpoint tracking, DNS tracking, or DPI to detect your pending disloyalty.


it's on AT&T's network. So it should be about the same.


How can it be so much cheaper than AT&T? It seems almost too good to be true, no?

I'm paying double that for way less minutes/data!


Straight talk's data isn't really unlimited. It's throttled to EDGE after 2.5Gb. Minutes on the other hand work out well.


My att unlimited is the same for $30/mo extra


When you buy a phone with AT&T, roughly half of the monthly cost goes towards paying back the ~$200-400 loan they gave you to subsidize the phone (it works out to some absurd interest rate, roughly 15-30% depending on what assumptions you make). Of course, they charge this even if you don't get your phone subsidized through them so in that case it ends up just being really expensive.

With Straight Talk, they don't subsidize the cost of the phone, so they charge less on a monthly basis.


Where I am, its on Verizon's network.


I am a very happy nexus 4 owner but the camera was obviously sub par; slow focus, dull colors and lack of sharpness were major problems. Glad to see that they're putting more effort on the camera in the nexus 5.


Seriously awful. All of my instagram shots are blurry/grainy. The upside is that I've had a reason to practice sniper-like breathing techniques. Not that it helps with photo quality.

What's weird is that the preview snap might look fine, but what gets saved to the device is always really poor.


Pro Tip: if you use a timed shot you will almost always get better pictures.

When you tap "take photo" on your screen you actually subtly nudge the phone and it slightly looses focus at the worst possible time.


When you say timed shot, do you mean set the phone on something and remove my hands from the equation entirely? If so, what about downward shots? (Which, coincidentally, most of my photos are.)

Usually I reduce the tap-nudge by doing hold-and-release rather than a quick tap to take a photo. I'll give the timed shot a go and see how it works out. Thanks.

Edit: Eh. Better, but still quite blurry and off color compared to my iPhone 4.


The camera on the Galaxy Nexus was pretty awful, too. It is particularly bad in indoor environments (gets very grainy without the flash, gets super washed out with flash).

I'm embarrassed to post photos sometimes because of the bad quality.


I actually got great results from the Galaxy Nexus -- check out http://www.instagram.com/nathankoren; all the shots prior to Dec 2012 were with the GN, and many of them are quite good. The main trick was to be extremely diligent about wiping down the lens prior to use, as a bit of grease or dirt on the lens will severely degrade the image.

When that phone died, I got a Nexus 4 -- and the camera was enough of a downgrade that I returned it two days later. Have been reasonably satisfied with my Galaxy 3 every since.

This MEMS stuff is interesting, but I really do wish that manufacturers would focus on providing larger sensors rather than more megapixels. Almost nobody actually needs 8MP from their phone, however every photograph benefits from a larger sensor.


Yes! More specifically, all photographs benefit from bigger pixels. Smaller pixels get less light. As a result, they have more noise. In turn this means that the manufacturer has to aggressively squash the photo into the tiniest dynamic range possible to get less noise. Finally this results with lots of overexposed and underexposed areas typical on modern cameras and phones.

Its horrible. Lets go back to 3MP and use huge pixels instead.


Yeah, the Nexus 4 takes really horrible pictures. High resolution, but if you actually view the picture full size, it looks like a digital camera from 1999 or something.


Agreed on the camera. It's pretty much crap and comparable to images taken with an ancient Nexus One.

Look forward to this MEMS camera, but stay skeptical. Fast focus is awesome, but how good is the matrix? Low light performance? Dynamic range?


Sub par is an understatement. It is completely useless.


"First of a kind camera called MEMS" is very disingenuous. MEMS is a series of technologies -- ie. MicroElectroMechanical Systems, and includes a lot of different sensors (eg. accelerometers and gyros). Also, piezoelectric MEMS focusing elements have been available for micro cameras for some time -- definitely not new (though perhaps first mass-market?). Bad reporting.


I'd say "Lytro functionality" (focus after capture) is perhaps most pointless feature ever in a small sensor camera. The only time one might come across some slightly shallow depth of field to play around with post-capture is when the subject matter is really close (and the background far away).

Faster focusing is welcome though.


Google has hired the developer of SynthCam, which is IMO the most interesting computational bokeh app. Combine that with the ability of the mems system and a fast image sensor to capture images at every focus point and estimate depth based on what is in focus in each image. You can then pick what you want blurry and what you want in focus and even how blurry you want the blurry parts to be. I hope they can make this all seamless in the nexus 5.


It's not anything like Lytro, though. From what the article says, it just takes images rapidly and then you choose the one that's most in focus.

Still, being able to focus faster and snap rapid images is a good thing. It makes getting quality pictures easier, especially with kids, who are notoriously blurry.


They don't claim that it's technologically similar to Lytro, just that it can offer similar functionality. To get any idea of what they mean, watch the YouTube demo at the end of the post[1]. At about 1:37 they show off being able to change the point of focus after the fact.

http://youtu.be/idtmJBa5u3Q


Why is this article tagged "Verizon"? It's all-but-confirmed at this point that Verizon users are going to be left high-and-dry with this Nexus upgrade, for the second time in a row. </rant>

- A frustrated Verizon user still using his 2-year-old Galaxy Nexus.


I too am a frustrated Verizon + Galaxy Nexus user, but I'll be leaving them in December when my contract is up. They have handled their Android line terribly, and I can't blame Google for not wanting to deal with them. I STILL haven't got Android 4.3 on this "flagship" device, and it's their fault. I can't uninstall their bloatware without rooting, either.

Net 10, Straight Talk, and a few others are what I'm looking at now. Going to save a ton of money and get a better device with comparable service.


> They have handled their Android line terribly, and I can't blame Google for not wanting to deal with them.

Exactly - I'm frustrated with Verizon, not Google.

The only reason I've stuck with them is because I'm grandfathered into unlimited 4G/LTE data. Even then, I'm still toying with the idea of switching to one of the GSM carriers - I can't decide if it's worth walking away from the unlimited data, though.


As someone in the same position that has debated this endlessly in their own head -- its not going to be really 'worth' it. VZW has the best network around, being grandfathered in on unlimited data is a serious boon.

When my internet service goes out in my home -- WiFi hotspot and no worries about whether I'm going to be throttled or hit an overage.

I hate my GNex but VZW+Unlimited Data is worth more to me. Whatever new phone you get will be just as obsolete in two years as the GNex is now.


>"As someone in the same position that has debated this endlessly in their own head -- its not going to be really 'worth' it. VZW has the best network around, being grandfathered in on unlimited data is a serious boon."

I felt the same way until I used a T-Mobile Nexus 4 side-by-side with my Verizon GN for a while. At least where I live and work I get consistently better speeds with the Nexus 4.

I can't say for certain, but it feels like Verizon service has gotten dramatically worse over the last year or two. It's not the phone as I have access to dozens across multiple carriers.

I've been telling myself that unlimited data will be valuable going forward for years now, but looking back I rarely crack 2-3GB in a month.

I expect that I've only gotten real value out of the unlimited plan and Verizon coverage while traveling.

For now, I plan to switch.


> When my internet service goes out in my home -- WiFi hotspot and no worries about whether I'm going to be throttled or hit an overage.

Amusingly, I've been getting pretty bad reception in NYC recently. Furthermore, in practice, I end up using way less than 2GB of data per month.

> Whatever new phone you get will be just as obsolete in two years as the GNex is now.

In two years, my Galaxy Nexus will be four years old. At the moment, I don't see a single Verizon phone worth getting (the are even issues with unlocking the HTC One on Verizon) and none on the horizon.


I was very excited about phones until my experience with the GNex. I was hoping VZW and Moto would be able to push out a decent Droid(w / QWERTY slider) but I don't think that is going to happen. There is nothing on the market today that I want to use.

I've even come close to getting an iPhone a couple times; even though I know it doesn't suit my life or workflow very well. I just want my phone to be useable!


Any reason you don't root? Just rooted and installed CM10.1 on my Verizon Galaxy S3 the other day and it's night and day difference. So much better than the crap they'd be pushing anyway.


I have before, but I shouldn't have to. CM can be pretty janky at times, particularly with the GPS. If I'm shelling out this much for a "flagship device", I shouldn't have to flash a custom ROM to stay up to date. I just want it to work and expect to get my updates like a Nexus device does.


Well GPS was always shitty on mine, as well was wifi stopped working (on stock software) so I had nothing to lose. No issues with it yet.


Apparently the Galaxy S3 is notorious for GPS issues, and those issues have an easy fix: Tighten the screws on the back.

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2201668


The updates to Android in 4.1+ have made the GNex slower and less able to function as a proper device.

I've rooted and installed a few different ROMs, but there is never a fix for crap hardware and limited RAM. The NAND seems to be a real source of problems as well.


I love 4G/LTE and my Galaxy Nexus, but I'm seriously considering getting a nexus 5 and straight talk. I have semi decent coverage in my area.


Straight Talk supports LTE (as of a few days ago.) I got a 20 mbps speedtest with an S3, though it's generally 8.

edit: this is AT&T, and requires a new SIM ($7) for existing customers.


It is certainly a marketing gimmick to call this a MEMS camera. MEMS here is used just to move the (usual) lens around for focusing the image on the (usual) sensor. Agreed that this may bring advantages, but "MEMS camera" may now deceive thousands of people into thinking it to be a fundamentally different type of camera, which it is not.

This is no different than LED TVs where the fundamental component that actually synthesizes the pictures is still LCD, just the back-light uses LEDs instead of CFLs.


Lumia 1020 so far has the best camera


Good, the Nexus 4 camera is terrible.


For $200 they've got to make some compromises somewhere.


Absolutely. Great phone all around other than that!


Genuine question: How much does the camera component on the Nexus 4 cost? How much more is the iPhone 5's camera?


iFixit supposedly has the iPhone 5 (not 5S) rear camera listed for $40 here: http://www.ifixit.com/iPhone-Parts/iPhone-5-Rear-Camera/IF11...

I imagine there is a substantial software component cost associated with it too...


You think? Maybe I haven't been comparing to the right phones - but I'm extremely happy with mine!


I have one and I'd definitely regard it as a terrible camera - particularly compared to my friend's iPhone photos.


My Lumia 920 needed to go in for warranty repairs so I picked up a Nexus 4 to use while it was being fixed (and because I wanted an Android phone to play around with as well). The photos I took on my Nexus 4 in comparison to the Lumia 920 were laughable.

My cousin and I have done some comparisons with the iPhone 4S camera and the Lumia 920 and we don't notice the difference, but the Nexus 4 is really awful in comparison to both of them.


A Nexus 4 cost $359 at launch here in Canada. An iPhone 5 cost around $700, almost twice the price offline. You can't really compare the 2 products directly.

It's like comparing a Ford with a Ferrari. You would be better comparing the iPhone with a Samsung Galaxy S4 since they are similar price points.


Kind of like comparing a Ford with a nicer Ford, but the nicer Ford is overpriced.


It's a much worse camera than what's in the 4S even.


Yes, I am not arguing that. What I am saying is if you pay peanuts, you will get monkeys.

You need to compare a $360 with a $360 phone, and you need to compare a $700 phone (iPhone) with a $700 (Samsung S4/Sony Z1/HTC Onc etc)


Odd...I had a Samsung Focus which took better pictures.

Seeing some Nokia/iPhone pictures makes it look bad.


It was a downgrade in over all picture taking from my galaxy s2. In a large part about the focusing ability.


I was going to buy a Nexus 4 as an Android device to play with, not as a primary phone. Since they sold out and I don’t feel like spending $350 on a phone I won’t use as a phone, I bought a refurbished $119 Nexus 7 first gen on EBay instead. I’d be happy with a lower spec phone that has a smaller screen running stock Android for around $250 but it appears no such thing exists.


>I’d be happy with a lower spec phone that has a smaller screen running stock Android for around $250 but it appears no such thing exists.

I'm sure you can get a Galaxy SII or Galaxy Nexus for that price or lower on ebay.


The Galaxy SII only runs Android 4.1. The Galaxy Nexus only runs 4.3 if you have the proper version of the phone. I doubt either of these phones will get the next big Android upgrade, if I'm buying a phone for $250 I'd like to know it will be supported for at least a year with out having to root it and install a mod to get the newest features.


I'm running 4.2.2 on my SGSII right now. I could even update it to 4.3 if I wanted to. I don't know how you can expect a manufacturer to support a two year old phone that you bought second-hand.


If I baught a second hand iphoneI can be fairly confident it will get updates for three years.


A couple thoughts:

iOS updates are limited by device. I forget the details but that 4S doesnt have all the functionality of that 5S. You need a minimal level phone for things like Siri and other features they never bothered backporting or couldn't due to hardware limitations.

Google OS updates are almost academic at this point. Google deploys a play store service which is a root-level middle man between your phone and various google services and apps. Google updates this themselves. Google apps are not tied to the OS, like Apple's apps are. Someone with a phone on 4.1 can get the same version of Maps that I do on 4.3. Heck, you can be on gingerbread and use all the same apps practically. Google has a huge incentive to keep gingerbread level OS phones up to date with its latest apps because so many are still in circulation.

Lastly, custom firmwares like CyoagenMod deliver up to date versions of android for many phones. So, no, its not so cut and dry. Also, if you really want an iphone, then go buy one. You'll get an easier update process but have to deal with all its limitations.

Its also worth mentioning that the galaxy nexus is a phone from 2011 that just got the newest version of android and is still a pretty beefy phone. No idea if its getting the next version officially, but it will be trivial to put a 3rd party firmware on there if not. Android has always had a phone that's updated for 2 years: the Nexus line. The only exception is the custom Nexus non-GSM nexus Sprint/Verizon sold for a short time. Google no longer sells phones like these and the Nexus is strictly GSM now as it was before.


8Gb Nexus 4 is £150.


That is currently $243.43 and I don't know what is involved in ordering from England and shipping to America. It's out of stock in the United States.


And sold out.


In practical terms, my guess is that focusing will:

- occur noticeably faster (for potentially faster shots)

- use less power (for longer battery life)

-- The fast/re-engineered focusing might then enable you to take photos in new modes, e.g: in an "idiot proof" spray, quickly snapping shots at different focus depths very quickly - which you can select from afterwords.

I don't personally see much appeal of the 'idiot proof' application yet, (though I could be convinced) but the first two seem like decent improvements.


Assuming the article is right:

Will they make sure that the 450ms savings over the 600ms average will be useful enough, by reducing the 8 second time from locked phone to photo shot as well?


Fast focusing is neat, but I'll wait to see how it compares to current top-end smartphone cameras that offer backside illuminated sensors with larger pixels.


Is the device actually called the Nexus 5? I have a feeling that people are calling it the Nexus 5, as it is the replacement for the Nexus 4, but that's not how the naming scheme works.

Isn't the 4 in Nexus 4 because the screen is 4 inches? Same with the Nexus 7 having a 7 inch screen. When the Nexus 7 replacement came out, it was called the Nexus 7, because it had the same size screen.

Does this new device have a 5 inch screen?

Pedantic minds need to know!


Leaked specs also mention a 4.97 inch display.


Awesome info, thanks.

Wow, some of these phones are getting pretty large. Especially considering this is Google's flagship phone. I wonder what size it will max out at?


Did the Nexus 5 receive FCC approval before the US government shutdown kicked in?


Parts of the FCC operate on user fees, thus would be unaffected by the shutdown.



I'm so waiting this phone. Does anyone waiting it? I am an iPhone 5 owner but planning to change this time. After using the Nexus 4 a bit I enjoyed many things.


MEMS camera - but no microSD slot.


Good that Nexus is stepping up its game. After Nokia hit it out of the park with its Lumia 1020 camera, using any other smartphone camera was sub par. Glad that we will have some competition. Of course its not just about focusing speed. Hope the sensor can produce some good images


And what is the disadvantage?


When there will be an Android smartphone which is not ugly?


Um, what about the HTC One?


Samsung Galaxy S4 isn't bad looking either. I'm also a fan of the Sony Xperia line up.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!


I think the motox looks better and feels better than an iphone.




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