2 kids. 7 year old and 3 year old. Started my current company when kid #2 was born (maybe not the recommended course of action for everyone, but I survived).
People ask me what my hobbies are these days it's pretty much (1) the kids and (2) the website.
In fact, I'd say the website is almost like a 3rd kid. Once that thing went public it was 24/7 just like a kid! And it even wakes you up at the least opportune times like a kid.
But I do find that with kids I'm forced to be resourceful and disciplined. I sleep less and make do with what little "me" time I have to get things done. I also find that I'm forced to prioritize things more (triage becomes really important when faced with greater time constraints).
I quit my job and started on my own the day my first child was born. I ran back and forth from the hospital to one of our first demos. I figured it'd be better for my kid to be the son of a poor man who tried than a slightly less poor and much more ordinary man who was too afraid to.
I have two year old twins. After working 8 hours during the day, I come home to play with the kids and help my wife out since she's a SAHM. When the kids go to bed around 7:30-8, I drink a beer or two and veg on my laptop or TV until 11. If I repurpose those three hours between 8 and 11, I could probably start a company. I've tried, and I'm just too tired/lazy to do it. It might have something to do with the beer...
I've heard a fair number of people say this, as a ha-ha throw-away line.
...but it alway galls me.
Raising and providing for your kids is the most important thing in life ... and yet some guys think it's amusing to note that they might very well have created kids, but (a) they don't keep track of who they've slept with and thus with whom they might have procreated; (b) they don't give enough of a shit to find out.
Raising and providing for your kids is the most important thing in life
I've heard a fair number of people say this, as a social piety line - one of those things everyone nods their head at, with which you're not supposed to disagree. But I do disagree. Certainly it's important. But there's nothing more important than reproduction and the endless family trance? I refuse to accept that.
I observe a lot of people doing a passable job of raising and providing for their kids and using that as an excuse for never pursuing what they really wanted. It is the socially acceptable way to plug the existential void (for twenty years, anyway). Apart from its obvious flaws is the ironic fact that in the end, it's a lousy, dispiriting example to set for one's kids.
I applaud your defense of responsibility. But after years of struggling with this, one thing I am sure of is that it's not as simple as TV moralists want to make it.
> But there's nothing more important than reproduction and the endless family trance? I refuse to accept that.
I think there are two interpretations. One is that having and raising kids is the most important thing you can do. This is, as you say, questionable (which is not to say that it's not extremely important to me, personally). The second, however, and the one I think tjic meant, is that if you do have kids, then raising them and providing for them is your primary responsibility. I think that's a lot harder to dispute.
It's clear that he didn't mean the first interpretation, because he said "your" kids, i.e. presupposing that you have them.
Primary responsibility? Sure, up to a point. Where that point is is what's in question. "Most important thing in life" is far too absolute. Is anything more dangerous than a socially acceptable opiate?
> But there's nothing more important than reproduction and the endless family trance?
We all have 4 Billion years of ancestors who lived short and brutal lives. They sacrificing everything for their children in the total poverty of nature. Often they would have to watch more than half of their children die in order to raise some that made it to adulthood.
Now, I'm fat and lazy, I don't have to search for food, and none of my children are likely to die. If I said raising children was too much work, or my time was too important, or I had more important things to do, I can almost imagine some old german farm woman from 500 years ago rolling with laughter.
Fortunately for you your ancestors disagreed (if you enjoy existing). Either you will change your mind when you hit the right point in life, or your genes will drop out of the gene pool and be displaced in the next generation with genes which are slightly more likely to produce a person who wants to reproduce.
I agree with you, though, that most people end up not really taking care of their kids, and just letting the TV raise them. That is very annoying. Kids really do require endless attention and time, but I've done both (had kids and previously didn't have kids) and I can tell you that something clicks in your brain, and you wouldn't want to go back.
I suppose I could hit you with the categorical imperative or something :)
If you have kids then yes, it is the most important thing. But it's just as important to have a balanced life, not just to feel good because you sacrificed for your kids. Martyrdom doesn't help anyone and feeling resentful because you can't do what you want because of children won't help either. Balance your needs with theirs, but realize that in the final decision, what's in their long term best interest comes first.
If you don't have kids, then the statement is pointless. Having kids you don't want just to meet some societal standard isn't just stupid, it's cruel to them.
When you think about it, dead baby jokes are horribly offensive too...
...which is a good reason not to think about it. ;-)
I completely agree that if you think through the joke, logically, it's really not all that funny and kinda offensive. But there are lots of jokes that are pretty offensive when you think through them. Dead-baby jokes. Microsoft Bing jokes. Various ethnic jokes. Holocaust jokes. The reason why we find them funny is because they stretch the bounds of social propriety.
I find it's better to draw a line between lets-be-serious-this-is-a-bad-thing mode and okay-we're-joking-now-say-whatever-you-want mode. Because things get awful dreary if you never joke about stuff that's morbid, depressing, and generally a bad thing. It's like humor is the natural human coping mechanism...
Like why is it easier to load a truck with dead babies than live babies?
I'm sure there are all kinds of reasons (mostly because live babies are very fragile and you would have to be careful) not just because you can use a pitchfork.
and a reference mechanism. Providing contrast. You can't appreciate good if you don't know bad. Morbid jokes are also a subtle way of reminding us of the unthinkable.
Raising and providing for your kids is the most important thing in life
No, it's the most important thing in your life. Do you know what I find more appalling than not knowing or caring whether one has procreated? People who pass judgement on those people based on their own opinions.
I'm sorry, but there is no objective reasoning whatsoever to claim that raising/providing for one's children is the most important thing in life and for you to suggest same, and berate others for not taking your viewpoint, is the only appalling thing here. Get off your high horse.
(no, I have no children, illegitimate or otherwise)
Is there objective reasoning to claim that doing something else besides raising your children well is the most important thing in life?
For myself, yes, raising my children well is the most important thing in my life. Of course, part of that means doing my job well, since providing material things like food and shelter is critical to the good life. But at the end of the day, my work can't supersede my commitment to my family. Our goal as a family is to foster the sort of "home economics" that Wendell Berry writes about--a home that is economically productive as a unit, not as separate parts.
That said, before I had children, I really had no grasp of what it meant to be a parent. Ten years ago, I could have never imagined having kids, let alone being as committed to them as I am now. I don't say this because I think I'm the greatest parent in the world (far from it, really), but because I think you really can't understand how being a parent changes your outlook on life (if you take your new role as a parent seriously).
If you don't have kids, good for you. I say, if you don't really want them, then don't have them. My life has certainly changed for the better because of them, but I don't expect that to be true for everyone. Do what you wish, just be sure you do it well.
Is there objective reasoning to claim that doing something else besides raising your children well is the most important thing in life?
So you're countering my argument by claiming I should have to prove the inverse? I suppose I can stop reading right there. You're claiming that your opinion is objective fact and judging people according to their agreement with it. Trying to argue that I should have to prove my side of the argument is even more asinine than your original claim.
> > Raising and providing for your kids is the most important thing in life
> No, it's the most important thing in your life. Do you know what I find more appalling than not knowing or caring whether one has procreated? People who pass judgement on those people based on their own opinions.
No, it's the most important thing in one's kid's life.
It is necessary for children to be raised, obviously. It is not necessary for one to raise their own children; kids can be adopted, have single parents, etc.
My two are 25 and 20, respectively. They're directly supportive, but they're also indirectly motivating, since I'm eager to transmit to them the potential upside of the entrepreneurial mindset (along with the downsides, of course.)
I have three kids, ages 5, 3, and 1. I focus better now than I did 5 years ago, but I don't know that you could separate the effects of having kids from the affects of being 5 years older and more experienced.
Gotta say that the 5 year old arranging keyboards and a broken DVD player on his desk so he can do work like daddy does is pretty cool, though.
I have a 3 month old black lab puppy. Not a kid by any means but for a 22 year old it's a big change in responsibility for me. she gets me up at 6am and i end up staying up to work so i guess that's a plus.
Awesome! I have 2 cats, a hamster, and fish. The cats are primarily in charge of waking me up as they begin meowing or playing by the bedroom door at 6:30am. My job then, is to wake the GF up. It's a good team effort imo :-)
My old girl doesn't wake me up. She's on roughly the same schedule I am (whatever that happens to be). Though she's astonishingly quick out of the gate when we wake each day. Before I even finish putting on my glasses, she's already jumped out of her bed, stretched and waiting by the bed for me to get up.
I suspect your puppy will grow out of waking you up. Dogs are generally pretty eager to please, and it should only take subtle hints for her to learn that waking you at 6AM isn't generally pleasing.
oh my god, a puppy - how awesome ! You must be so happy !
My alarm goat is set to go off at 5.45 each morning. I'm so glad I bought one. I feel like my life is so much more organised and I'm just so motivated to get up and go, go, go!
I'm so wrapped up in my goat world that I don't care that it stinks and makes a mess of my house. I let it sleep with me even though it has traces of shit all over its fur and legs. They are so just so adorable.
Quality of sperm produced degrades quickly. I suspect few men are fertile enough to father children in old-age though your chances are probably better with a young woman(!).
Doesn't that fall into the "proving a negative" category? As I do not and will not have kids, how will I have any idea? I seem to remember Hazlitt invoking this re: the cost of the broken window...
My sister has already taken care of my share, so maybe I have the best of both worlds: Someone else's kids to play with, and someone else to send then back to when I have had enough! :)
Personally, having my family to take care of as well as house/car payments makes me think about revenue much earlier in the game, and that's helped tremendously.
4 and (maybe) more to come down the line. In the end, family is everything. Sacrificing anything to another end is foolish in the long run. 100 years from now, what will become of any of your companies? What of Google itself? What else is there?
The responsibility makes starting a company ... more cautious. Not so much harder but you have to be more careful. As for motivating, absolutely. You will get more done in less time, when that's all you have. ;)
This really doesn't have anything to do with the topic, but when you said you selected 0 when you have one kid on the way, I feel I had to comment. My wife was pregnant with our twins over Mother's Day. DO NOT, under any circumstances tell your 7 months pregnant wife that since she "isn't a mother yet" she doesn't get a Mother's Day gift. I was in the dog house for a while after that.
Sigh. Why do men allow women to emotionize them out of their own property? I mean, I'm assuming she just made you sleep on the couch, but personally, I think that's a bit dehumanizing. Why do we, as a culture, accept that?
Yes, I realize she was hopped up on hormones. There are plenty of other examples, though, where women get some kind of "right" to kick men out of their own place when they feel emotionally sidelined. Are women really so emotionally fragile that this needs to happen?
I've rarely heard "in the doghouse" to mean literally sleeping in the doghouse, or even sleeping on the couch. IME, it just means "in trouble", i.e., she was upset with him for a while.
I agree that "making" a man sleep on the couch is not acceptable in the sorts of cases that folklore usually reports for it, but (and maybe I just know more reasonable couples?) I don't often see it happen in real life.
No, it's because the men acquiesce. The few times my wife has been angry enough to tell me to sleep on the couch, I've just said no. What happens then is she sleeps on the couch then wakes up a few hours later because it's too uncomfortable and comes into bed next to me.
Our "unspoken rule" now is that neither of us has the right to kick the other out of bed. If one of us is that upset, then it's up to him/her to sleep somewhere else.
One two-year-old, and another one on the way for November.
Losing sleep, changing diapers and cleaning throw-up seems to have injected a dose of realism in my life. I also feel like I'm doing reasonably well with a really big project, and developing skills that I really didn't have before. Somehow I feel more rooted in the world, if it makes any sense.
I feel _more_ motivated to start my own thing now. I can't see myself taking the risk of quitting my job and working on a startup full-time, but I'm open to consulting on the side and trying to grow that.
3 kids. I agree, having children increased my focus and discipline immensely.
However, as time goes by I'm realizing that it's going to be extremely difficult (nearly impossible) to spend the time I need to spend between my normal job and family requirements to getting my web app and associated business up and running. I'm keeping at it, though.
I find it a motivating factor, but I find I am at a disadvantage to other younger entrepreneurs because 1) I have less time, 2) I am more risk averse, and 3) I have more responsibilities and bills to pay at home so I can't just live on ramen and focus on building something on my own time
It makes it a bit harder, but not that much. I have less free time, but even if I didn't have a son, I probably wouldn't do much work between the time I get home (about 6pm) and when he goes to bed (8:30) anyway.
I work full time and launched a new company about a month ago. I agree that it does give you focus. You want to provide something better for your kids.
no offense, but if you have more than 2 then you're likely living vicariously through HN. if you're giving up founder-time, then it's at the expense of your child's development in relation to personal influence. IMO.
I'm 27 (i think), i seriously have no idea how someone with 2+ kids could do it. i really don't. whatever i'm missing, please teach me the ways to better time/life management.
A cofounder of Arbor, and one of the heaviest travelers there, had 4 very-well-adjusted, very-happy kids. It's extremely hard to avoid giving offense when your message is "what you're doing is hurting your children", so it's probably best just to keep that sentiment to yourself.
I apologize for an offensive remark, puts foot in mouth. I wasn't very clear in that first post.
I know it can be done by some but I don't think most people can do it, and I still think it comes at a cost. The question is, how do children (more importantly: teenagers) handle a father's long hours and absence? There's a reason wealthy private schools often have big drug problems.
My dad was a physician back when doctors were still crazy workaholics. He worked at least 80 hours a week, easy. He still had time to go to most of my sports games, music events and help me with my homework. I also have 3 siblings. His schedule didn't have much of an adverse effect on me, but it probably was hard on my mom.
I would think that the financial instability of a startup is a bigger issue for a family than the hours.
People ask me what my hobbies are these days it's pretty much (1) the kids and (2) the website.
In fact, I'd say the website is almost like a 3rd kid. Once that thing went public it was 24/7 just like a kid! And it even wakes you up at the least opportune times like a kid.
But I do find that with kids I'm forced to be resourceful and disciplined. I sleep less and make do with what little "me" time I have to get things done. I also find that I'm forced to prioritize things more (triage becomes really important when faced with greater time constraints).