Says a lot when your product is cloned in a couple of days. Not that complexity means a better product, but you should at least expect this type of thing if you're app only took you a few days to implement yourself.
And not picking up the .com? Regardless of price, that'll be a decision that will come back and haunt you for quite some time.
Says a lot when your product is cloned in a couple of days.
Well, there's some truth to this statement regarding the functionality of the site, but at the same time I'd say that the design is harder than you might think; the work of creating designs, slogans, site names and copy text is underappreciated; it takes time and creativity to get those things right, and absolutely no work for someone to steal them. Not to mention any PR and press work done by twitvid to promote the site which could now be misdirected.
Stealing (or being influenced by or whatever you want to call it) the design wouldn't lead to misdirected traffic. Not owning the .com is what will do that job for them.
if they can prove registration in bad faith and that the owner has no legitimate interest.
If the twitvid.com guys really did buy the domain and design the site after twitvid.io got started, maybe they could somehow prove that stealing their thunder was the only "legitimate interest" and that the domain was acquired in bad faith.
Sadly it sounds like an uphill battle -- and even in the best case it might be a Pyrrhic victory as trademarks take the better part of a year to issue (if not more) and the UDRP procedure probably isn't speedy either. And then they'll fight it, and you'll spend all your time in court instead of building your company.
HuddleChat wasn't a rip. It was a tech demo, demo'ing a very small set of general features. There's only so many ways you can build a simple chat app. A text box at the bottom and a list of users on the side? Must be a rip. /rolls eyes.
And yes, it does say something if your product is 'ripped' as a demo for someone else's service ;)
Yeah, maybe they have had it built for months now and were just as mad at twidvid.io for copying their idea as the twidvid.io people are now that twitvid.com copied them...
I can't upmod this comment enough. Regardless of whether they got some inspiration from twitvid.io they both copied the idea from somewhere else. It's not like twitvid isn't super-obvious as a name considering twitpics success.
Also, how many ways could a service like this be built? It's obvious what features you need, what look you are going for etc.
Sure, they have similar UI elements, but everyone knows it's a terrible risk to take not having <your product name>.com
I don't understand why anyone would do it.
I'd hate a world where people claim they "own" certain UI layouts. It reminds me a little of when 37 signals were up in arms about huddlechat copying campfire, because both of them looked like chatrooms :/
Definitely if twitvid.io have a legitimate claim to the trademark, they might have a case, although afaik owning the .com counts for a fair amount. If it was me, I'd just change the name, knuckle down, and out maneuver the competition.
Everyone copies everyone else. That's just the way this business works, and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it.
I agree they should just change the name and try to out hustle these guys. If they didn't have the $ to buy the .com domain in the first place, they certainly can't afford to pay lawyers to wage a protracted trademark battle.
Does anyone know who posted the original entry? Was it someone at twitvid.io/fliggo, a friend, or just someone random?
There's a difference between copying individual elements, and making a knockoff of something. That's why there's a distinct word "knockoff" for that case.
Both sites took a ridiculously generic template for designing their page. Bubbly letters, Twitter colors, show users, 1-2-3 list. The designers for both products lack imagination and created products that fail to stand out. Maybe that works because they're making such a "widespread use" product, but you can't accuse people of stealing genericism. Not when every Twitter site works the exact same.
To me, the only thing that makes twitvid.com wrong is choosing the same name. Some of the features and accompanying copy are the same, but the layout is basically a combination of any ugc site and Twitter. These two both look a lot like justin.tv and okcupid.com.
Also, twitvid.com looks better, which makes this situation more painful, I'm sure.
In my experience, that line is pretty fuzzy in this business. E.g., take all the various mafia games on facebook, myspace, iphone, and now twitter. They're more or less all knockoffs of one another, but nobody seems to care. In fact, consumers seem to love them all.
In this case, shame on twitvid.com for using the exact same name (and filing a trademark application for it), but I think copying features and design elements is fair game. Ultimately the one that provides the best service will win.
I definitely see what you're saying and still remember 37signals' outraged people are outraged ordeal. But...look at the Twitvid.com before and after shots, they changed to look like Twitvid.io.
I don't know if Twitvid.io has a case or not, but Twitvid.com is treading in the bush league.
That's usual competition :/ Company A does something, company B copies. Just a fact of life :/
The websites are different enough to avoid confusion IMHO, and the .com holds the .com name so has a fair advantage. To the unaware, they'd likely consider .io to be the ripoff, as users trust .com
It's just a raging asshole move online. If you were talking about cars, it might be okay for GM to copy something by Toyota, feature for feature -- because they'd still have to invest a billion dollars or so in reverse-engineering, designing, manufacturing, distributing, and advertising it.
But if you can just apple-C, apple-V your way into stealing someone else's brand value, it's a sleazy trick that adds no value. At best, this means that the next time someone has an idea like this, they'll be more likely to go after the dot-com -- and if they can't afford the dot-com, they may move on to their second-best idea instead.
If they copied HTML code, or graphics, then sure. But if they looked at the site and incorporated similar elements and wording, which seems to be what happened, I'd say "meh - it happens".
IMHO not getting the .com is a really bad idea. The best case scenario is you start paying adwords a ton of money to get the traffic. Worst case is probably what happened here.
"That's usual competition ... Just a fact of life"
Not really. Some of us choose to operate ethically, helping others in our business communities and the public at large. There are plenty of things you can do without screwing over another small business.
And in a funny twist, neither twitvid.com or twitvid.io are showing in position #1. If people really want to help out, they should link to twitvid.io with the anchor text twitvid.
They tried to buy twitvid.com, but they couldn't afford the asking price. But "Twitvid" (not .io or .com) is what both parties are claiming a trademark on, and there Twitvid was clearly first.
I'm no lawyer, but I think the launch is too close to award anyone anything. I'd expect you have to have a clear established customer base to claim they will be confused - not a couple of days usage.
Trademark protection doesn't apply to names themselves, but to names used for particular purposes. You could start an apiary called Apple Honey Co, and you'd be fine. Start a computer company called Apple, though, and you'd be infringing Apple Computer's trademark.
True, but that cuts both ways. Twitvid.io xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx see below xxxxxxxxxxxxx hasn't been in existence very long, so there is no way they can argue their domain is an established mark. Twitvid.com could point to the early registration (and possibly the date of their purchase of it) as evidence that they planned to move into this space and had to move up their launch schedule in response to twitvid.io.
Trademarks are quite different from copyright, where proof of authorship is all; given the relative youth of both sites, I wouldn't rely on a legal remedy if I were twitvid.io. If nothing else, one would have to ask whether the cost of defending the mark would exceed the cost to buyout the .com, and indeed if/why not this was budgeted for.
Just noticed that twitvid.com (not .io as I mistakenly noted above) actually has an active trademark application on the name Twitvid. Specifically, it's their parent eatlime.com, an existing video-sharing service that has done the filing. So I don't see much hope for twitvid.io leveraging their < 1 week launch advantage into a defensible trademark.
Right. But surely you also have to be able to demonstrate that you have been active in that space for a while, and that people associate that name, in that space, with you. And, that the issue is causing widespread customer confusion.
I'm just skeptical that can be done when both services launched within days of each other. Seems like not enough data to draw any meaningful conclusions.
If bing.io had launched a few days before ms unveiled bing.com do you think they'd have a hope in hell?
True, but it does make it much easier to make the case that they registered the domain a year ago with the intent of launching that brand and have been working on the idea ever since, while we know that Twitvid.io just spent a few days throwing this together a couple weeks ago. Hardly an airtight case for trademark protection.
I'm not saying what they did is right, as it clearly isn't, but I agree with axod; Twitvid.io should just change their name and move on. They're going to fight a losing battle otherwise.
What I simply cannot understand, is why twitvid.io would launch, knowing that twitvid.com was out there. What did they think it would be used for? Selling flowers?
It's obvious that twitvid.com would become a competitor, and due to the service they both copied - twitpic.com - would look very similar to twitvid.io.
Word Mark TWITVID
Goods and Services IC 035. US 100 101 102. G & S: Video Upload Service
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 77742689
Filing Date May 21, 2009
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Owner (APPLICANT) EatLime, Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 1417 Guerrero St. San Francisco CA 94110 San Francisco CALIFORNIA 94110
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
All of these Twitter apps are really just a diversion. The rest of us can hack with a little more peace of mind since our potential competition is off in the echo chamber.
I used to think like that as well before I launched TweetLinx - I was working on my news engine with peace of mind in my personal echo chamber when I realized that I might be able to make use of Twitter's buzz to introduce people to my company and technology. You can always expand your product line later - if there's easy traffic, sometimes it's worth taking.
Web 2.0 icons - I have those on my site. The words "Upload from your computer" - I have those on my site. A list of the latest stuff being added/uploaded - oh yes, I have those on my site.
axod's comment[1] confirms that the linked page is incorrect (twitvid.com was not bought after launch) and so there doesn't seem much else to go on.
People have been building competitor sites to other services for years. If you can't do it bigger/better/faster... tough?
From a twitvid perspective, a knockoff certainly hurts. As long as twitvid gets better initial users, it can iterate faster and deliver a better product, that should certainly help.
This also poses a much larger question: Once a YC company launches, and clones pop up, how well does the YC company fare wrt these clones? What are the short term & long term consequences?
I can see some of them ("the easiest way to share videos") -- others seem to just be based on common Web 2.0 elements. I can see a lot of Digg in the color schemes, and there's an obvious rip-off of the Twitter layout as well. My biggest problem with it is the name; I think the sites are sufficiently different to avoid confusion besides.
On the flip side, the .com version has a far better design. Usually "ripoffs" look worse or the same, but they've actually improved upon it. Not saying that's right - just an observation.
If the .io guys send out attack lawyers, it will be the biggest waste of time and money ever for a startup.
Neither of these services have any traction, and TwitVid is a mediocre name anyway (it's way too derivative of TwitPic). So what prize would they be fighting over?
And while they're busy consulting with lawyers, someone somewhere will launch TwitTube / YouTwit / Twideo and kick their asses.
People say that, but it's really not. There's still reasonable 4 letter top level domains untaken, and plenty of good names. It just takes some thought, and a fair bit of time.
Off the top of my head, untaken domains:
tweevio.com viotwit.com vitwit.com vittler.com twiveo.com tweeveo.com twoovi.com twoovy.com twitvy.com vidatweet.com vidtwid.com
I'm sure there's tons of better names out there, but I think a few of the above names are 'good enough' to be successful, and best of all, they're all free.
No, the LLLL.coms have been bought up by domainers. They had some crazy bubble (which has now burst) for them as well. There are plenty of okish 5 letter .coms available.
I am not an IP lawyer, but seems like copyright infringement to me. Starting with the name. I don't think it matters if twitvid.io is not a .com - if they are providing services under the twitvid mark, they own it. The design elements might be web 2.0/twitterish, but the placement on the screen and wording screams knock-off. It is twitvid.com who should change the name, if .io guys were indeed to market first. It will be interesting to see if the .io guys take this to court.
Having said that, I agree with the comments about making sure to grab a .com. If anything, to avoid a situation like this. Does anyone know, did del.icio.us buy delicious.com right away, or after they became popular and got some cash in their pockets?
TwitVid.io has to sue, or they might as well change their service name.
If they adequately established a trademark in 'TwitVid' via use or registration before TwitVid.com began offering a similar service, they'd have some chance of success.
It might not be cost-effective, though -- it could take a long time, and any similar use by the TwitVid.com owners/operators before TwitVid.io started might foul their claim. Even if they win they might not be able to collect much money/damages... though perhaps they could be awarded the TwitVid.com domain name.
Ignoring this or fighting TwitVid.com only in the 'court' of public opinion could lose any trademark rights TwitVid.io has -- by failure to enforce against a notorious and substantial infringement.
This is to be epxected when you don't own .com name. Just ignore them and concentrate on building/seo'ing your brand so that you can rank 1st on google.
PS: maybe a domain hack like twitv.id makes sense ?
That's true, but it wasn't owned by the current owners. Not long after we launched, they started poking around twitvid.io and testing out features, as they've continued to do. A few days later, they bought the domain.
We are all for competition. However, it becomes an unfair competitive environment when your competitor's sole strategy is to confuse and deceive users rather than innovate.
In a few cases in the past couple weeks they have been @ replying people who had used us, telling them to use the "real" TwitVid.
In fairness, that's not their sole strategy. They already have an existing video sharing site, eatlime.com, with 500k global monthlies (per quantcast), and they've been leveraging that technology to offer more speed. This was already covered in http://venturebeat.com/tag/cotwitvidcom/
I don't mean to be an ass, but if you couldn't meet the asking price for twitvid.com that ought to have thrown up a red flag. Did you have market research/business intelligence on your competitors in the video sharing space before launch?
Those .com people are really shady. I would never give my password to them. Once the big Tech blogs write up about this, the credibility of the owners are definitely gone. Who would want to work with them?
Nevertheless, why didn't you guys just change the name?
By sticking with twitvid, you opened the door for people to take advantage of you.
Similarly, if you have a domain name, buy both the singular and plural versions. You should even buy the misspellings as well. A good example is RealityPicks.com which redirects to RealityPick.com.
Regarding the credibility of the twitvid.com people:
"It’s backed with money from venture capital firm Draper Fisher Jurvetson and a group of angel investors, including Stanford’s Rajeev Motwani (early advisor to Google), Amidzad, former Google employees Georges Harik and Aydin Senkut, as well as XG Ventures, another group of former Googlers."
Says a lot when your product is cloned in a couple of days. Not that complexity means a better product, but you should at least expect this type of thing if you're app only took you a few days to implement yourself.
And not picking up the .com? Regardless of price, that'll be a decision that will come back and haunt you for quite some time.
It's the high seas out there.