It would be cool if you were more reserved with your usage of "squatted" to describe domain names. Amateurs commonly use it to mean "he has something I want," but in domainer lingo, a squatted domain is used specifically for trademark infringement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anticybersquatting_Consumer_Pro... .
I think it's an important distinction to make when describing domain name disputes.
If you bought a domain name for the sole purpose of sitting/squatting on it until you can find a buyer who will pay significantly more than you did, than you're a squatter.
We aren't talking about land here, we're talking about domain names. A domain squatter has legitimate right to the domain names (s)he owns. Domain squatting is neither illegal, nor contrary to any rules.
I happen to despise the practice, and wish ICANN implemented measures to prevent it occurring.
> I've bought a lot of things with the sole purpose of selling it for more.
Try buying a lot in a modern real-estate development in a developed nation and see if you can sit on it. They won't let you, because your empty lot lowers the value of all the properties in the vicinity. They won't let you just throw up a lean-to and call it a building either. You'll actually have to build a proper house that not only follows all relevant codes but that actually looks good.
Generally speaking, domain squatting is a shitty practice by shrewd business-people who found a way to conjure big bucks out of thin air... ie. without creating any value whatsoever.
My suggestion would be to seek out a generic tld other than .com (unless you have a lot of money to burn). Here's Google's list of what they consider to be a generic tld:
I recently picked up a useful .fm three letter domain for a new service. It perfectly matched the service, and I think the negatives of alternative generic tld's can be overcome very well these days.
Let me put this as clearly as I can. This is very bad advice. I've been in this business since 1996 and I deal with end users and customers on both the buying and selling side. For everything from a standard domain registration (at normal pricing that you can get at your registrar) to high value sales (let's say hundreds of thousands of dollars).
Anything but .com is almost always going to be problematic and will more than likely cause problems. You can get a reasonably priced .com you just have to be creative.
Let me give you an actual sale today that I handled.
I bought both the .com and the .org of the same domain name for a customer (someone who sold their company to google iim)..
The .com went for $70,000. I was able to get the .org for $1,500.
Domains are all over the place and despite what the OP says (I will try to address that in a separate post) there are domains that can be had and sellers who are reasonable.
Getting anything but a .com for a serious site is going to be a problem. If anything makes more sense to tack on a word to what you want (pre or suffix) than it does to get anything but a .com
It's not very bad advice. I've been building web businesses for 16 years. You have no advantage over me on time.
The end of the dominance of .com was always inevitable, and is already occurring. Sites as varied as ask.fm, twitch.tv, minecraftwiki.net, foods.tv, formspring.me, php.net, about.me, imageshack.us, last.fm, mega.co.nz, rapidgator.net, popads.net, speedtest.net, ustream.tv, prchecker.info, who.is, all.biz, jsfiddle.net, justin.tv, bit.ly, scoop.it, snap.do and vine.co are proving that every day (or already proved it in the past). And that's ignoring the rest of the vast array of .net and .org sites. There will be a lot more big alt sites in the next five years. Instagram didn't start out as instagram.com. Clearly Vine didn't need the .com to succeed at all. Different use case than your typical 1998 .com? You bet, and that's exactly the future.
The proof is already in place: you don't need a .com to succeed any longer.
Among the top 5,000 global sites, .com addresses are in the minority now. Apparently other entrepreneurs and businesses in other countries are also having no problems building global, world class businesses without using .com.
In fact, over the last decade as the web has become dominated by non-English speaking and non-American businesses and users, I'd argue that everybody outside of America is already very accustomed to the use of alternative domains. Just another reason .com is the past.
Saying that something is going to be problematic, doesn't mean that it is actually so.
Only $70,000 for that .com? You mean in other words very few startups could actually afford that. You're talking about an elite class of startups - the top 1% - once you're talking about spending $70k on a domain.
"Among the top 5,000 global sites, .com addresses are in the minority"
Could you provide a source for this? I just picked a random top website page (http://stuffgate.com/stuff/website/top-1000-sites) and found that 637 of their top 1000 are .com. It appears their rankings are from Alexa.
"This is bad advice" only until google decides to tweak some rules. (by problems I assume you mean problems with google)
For me it's a matter of principle: I will choose common sense over google. Sure if you're selling SEO services, you're google's b*tch, but when you're building a visionary company (yes, blah-blah), to me it's important to get a good name, and not worry about some ugly .com domain.
It depends a lot on how you expect people to come to your site and the cost of losing them versus the cost of the better domain. If you run a TV ad for example.co , you can expect an order of magnitude more people to visit example.com instead.
I agree with that in general. I'd say that if you've got TV money (or similar) to spend, your domain buying options are a lot wider than most startups. And if your service gets to that level of success, you can at least attempt to buy your .com.
We're also probably at the point now, where even if your alt domain service becomes highly successful, there's a good chance the .com won't be available no matter what (short of a million dollar purchase, either due to a serious business owning it, or ransom).
This is overwhelmingly true, and even documented for .co unfortunately. I'm hoping over the next year as new tlds come on board, tld awareness/education goes up. Don't get me wrong, I don't think any will make a dent in .com in any reasonable timeframe as far as value and familiarity go, but at least help erode the 'all websites end in .com' mantra that so many hold.
Secondarily, it'd be nice to watch domain squatters 'fortunes' dwindle to nothing. I wish icann did more to enforce rules against it, yet i'm not sure what such a solution could be.
Disappointing. There's no discussion of how much they paid, or how they actually got their domain name. From the article, it makes it seem as though they are in a lease to buy situation.
Really good point which I had thought of as well. I will try and see if I can find out the price. (Hopefully this thread will still be going when I find the answer).
Found this (in the mean time) (doesn't mean it was posted legitimately):
1. Using any online 'appraisal service' or what have you as a pricing guideline is not something you can depend on. There have been numerous tools like this and sometimes their results are so wrong it is funny.
2. People who own domains get do get a lot of mail, often of the "let me scam you" variety. Standing out from these is the trick.
3. A good domain name is worthless without good content. Don't pick a bad name, by all means, but what lives at that name is much more important than the name imho.
It's not hard to stand out. You just have to be realistic about the price you are willing to pay.
Domain sellers are all over the map. Some are highly rational and some are gamblers. The gamblers are willing to wait for the big fish to come along and pass up an offer that could be 5 times the amount that another domain owner would accept.
Agree with the domain appraisal service comment it can easily mislead you in either direction. The problem is if you know nothing about this you won't know which direction that was.
The domain name market is completely broken. It shouldn't be allowed to register a domain name if a legitimate business isn't going to use it. It's just a corrupt practice and I feel sorry for everyone who plays ball and shells out top-dollar for this things.
I sold RebelSpirits.com for $500 to a winery business owner last year. We scanned and emailed each other our drivers licenses and he sent a check for $500 in the mail. I released the domain to him after I deposited the check. His check was from a major bank.
Can some one tell me if my method was smart or stupid? What could have gone wrong other than check fraud?
If someone had stolen ID _and_ checkbook, it might not have been the person you thought you were dealing with. I don't know if you looked into the winery / called it or whatever, but I'd have wanted some way to establish with fair certainty who I was dealing with beforehand. ( and probably would have accepted a check like you did given the amount. )
A surprising number of people don't know a check can be pulled back out of your account weeks after the deposit.
Paypal or credit cards aren't much better. So far as I know using escrow, wire transfer or bank draft are the only "sure" ways payment can't be revoked
I think ( but don't know for certain ) that they can be reversed until the receiving bank disperses the funds. I imagine if you're dealing with enough zeros, all bets are off though.
I'd be interested in a "for sure" answer if anyone knows for certain.
If I were him, I don't think I would have particularly liked sending someone a copy of my ID and a check with my bank account and routing numbers on them.
As someone who both buys and sells domain names (and particularly 3 letter .com's since 1996) let me point a few things out. I might also mention that I am the go to guy for a few well known VC's that you have heard of although that is not my main business at all (although it could be it just doesn't pay that well compared to other things I spend time on.)
This statement:
"Within a day or 2 we started getting responses. All the responses were the same and were in the format of “Sure we are willing to sell, we expect a bid in the mid to low 7 figures."
Is total BS and hyperbole. People in the business can be jerks and unreasonable for sure but it would be more likely for someone to "ask" for 100k or simply say "domain is not for sale" than to say "7 figures" (2 letter, possible, 3 letter, specifically "all of the responses", no. Unless of course you emailed the same people (they may have different email address for the same owner) and they were pulling your chain.) Exaggeration.
"When the price for a domain you like is really high, consider lease-to-buy options to give you flexibility."
I never recommend this it's normally a way to make sure you pay an exorbitant price for a domain.
"Don’t get attached to any domain name. "
Great advice. This is absolutely true.
"When you find something you like, move FAST and close it as soon as possible. Often times you might not have a second chance."
I can say that I have closed a number of sales by simply making the buyer feel that someone else wants the same name, coincidentally the same day someone else inquired! Total bullshit. Good leads are extremely infrequent. Possible but more likely you are being played with.
"Good domain names get offers many times a week. Think about how you’ll make your email stand out from the rest."
In general not true. There is no serious bidding war going on for good domain names every day. There are people for sure that email everyone and anyone with non serious offers and to people who own many names it appears to be that you are getting offers all the time. But you might get no inquires on a particular good domain name in 1 year or 5. The only way you need to stand out is to appear to be a real buyer and act like a real buyer. Unfortunately if you are sending a bunch of emails that's going to be hard to do.
"Use domainworth.com to get a rough idea of how much their domain is worth."
Totally meaningless. By the way never try to negotiate with a seller quoting any estimate value. With very few exceptions means nothing. Very few exceptions means there are always outlier cases.
"Use instantdomainsearch.com and leandomainsearch.com to help you check your desired names or come up with new ones.
> People in the business can be jerks and unreasonable for sure but it would be more likely for someone to "ask" for 100k or simply say "domain is not for sale" than to say "7 figures" (2 letter, possible, 3 letter, specifically "all of the responses", no.
FWIW, here's an email I received when enquiring about a 3-letter domain name:
Thank you for your interest in this domain name
This domain name is among our most prized and sought-after domains. It is the online equivalent of prime, downtown real estate, and we get purchase inquiries about this domain every week.
Based on what comparable domain names are selling for, this domain name commands a premium price tag in the five-figure and higher price range.
This may come as a surprise to you since not everyone is aware that domain names of this quality regularly sell in this price range (and higher). Please visit the Domain Name Journal website below to see a current summary of recently sold domains and their selling prices:
(omitted)
After you’ve viewed the Domain Name Journal Sales Chart (above) and seen the current selling prices, we’d be delighted to discuss your interest in purchasing this domain name from us. Also, to avoid giving you ‘sticker shock’, we want to make sure your domain acquisition budget will support this domain’s five-figure and higher price range. We’re always respectful of our customers’ time and try very hard not to waste it with negotiations that can never get off the ground.
If your budget will support the five-figure and higher price range, please reply with a serious offer to begin the negotiation process with us. Any offer of less than five-figures won’t be taken seriously by us, and due to the volume of email we receive, will not be replied to at all. Thank you.
Are you sure you talked to a person and not a robot? I'm sure that each and every domain you ask about is one of their "prized and sought-after" domains.
The "five-figure and higher" line (repeated four times!) is pretty funny. I'm not sure of any other market where price estimates span multiple orders of magnitude. It is just a transparent way to get you to name a figure first.
>The "five-figure and higher" line (repeated four times!) is pretty funny. I'm not sure of any other market where price estimates span multiple orders of magnitude. It is just a transparent way to get you to name a figure first.
Part anchoring and part weeding out people who don't know the value and setting expectations.
Let me give you an example.
We are getting out bathroom redone. The first step is the contractor is going to come out and "take a look and get an idea of where we will be at price wise". He will then (he said) give us a rough idea of the cost. After we hear that and we look like we are both in the same ballpark he will proceed further to get an actual design in place and we will get down to specific prices. There is also anchoring involved in this as well (say he gets us to agree to 30k for the bathroom won't be hard getting us to 35k, right?).
Had the same just happen with putting in a backup generator. Guy on the phone stated "most systems like you need will cost $15,000". Said "ok". Came out, job priced out below that he had shot high. Didn't want to waste his time quoting if we thought the price is merely what you see for the equipment at Home Depot.
It's really no different than superlative language used in many advertising materials actually. And yes it is a robot response meant to weed off the passersby who have no money. Anyone with money will skim that and know what to do. Anyone who thinks they can buy the domain for $10 will go away.
No matter how many inquiries you get (and as I've mentioned you don't get many inquiries per name but in total if you own thousands of domains you get many inquiries) it normally pays to at least find out who you are dealing with and why they want the domain (size them up) prior to quoting any price expectation etc.
Curious what the domain was I've seen that letter before but can't place the seller that uses that.
Ok, you may be the expert at this, and whilst the article may not match your experience and contain some inaccuracies, I don't think there's any real need to be yelling "total BS and hyperbole" and "Total bullshit". Pretty sure you can disagree in a more constructive manner.
I think it's called "Calling a spade a spade"[0]. Just because you seem to be offended by profanity does not mean the rest of the world must write in a manner to not offend you. We're all adults here.
Not offended by profanity, or even condescending comments such as yours. I'm Scottish and quite an expert at it myself. For such an expert wheeler dealer in the domain name biz, larrys just comes across as being a bit of a dick, I have a rule of thumb in forums and general discussion, don't be a dick.
You called it. I don't normally react the way I did but that statement was just plain wrong in so many ways. Had OP said "I got a few back" that would be one thing. But "all of them" combined with the price (7 figures) made me react like that.
By the way there are plenty of 3 letter .com's that you can
buy in the 20k to 40k range. Anyone who is interested can email me and I will point you in the right direction of people that I know that are selling in that price range. Below 20k gets a bit more difficult. But possible sometimes.
Wholesale price for people buying crappy 3 letter .com's (that you probably don't want) is perhaps in the 5k level (but they are not a good set of letters generally). These people will buy any 3 letter .com for 5 to 7k since they know that if a law firm needs those initials (one that has not opened yet) they can triple or quadruple the money.
I wish there was a rule which freed up a domain as soon as it could be confirmed as having been bought for profit and nothing else.
Whilst I can get a squatted domain if they're sitting on my trademark, there are so many great company names which haven't happened because some bugger bought all the dictionary word combinations and runs ads and a GoDaddy auction link on them.
Goodness knows how you do that in a way which didn't require huge teams of people. It'd have to be automated. Anyone got any ideas?
There's a problem to be solved here -- is there a way to buy/sell domain names ONLY to people who will actually use them?
I have a bunch of domains that I've registered over the years, with plans for side projects that haven't yet been realized. Some of them are probably moderately valuable.
Over the years I've let some expire that I was sure I wasn't going to use, and those are all registered nowadays... but NONE of them are actually in use. Just squatted. That's not nice to see.
I've sold a few as well, for reasonable prices, once I was confident that the purchaser was going to use them -- e.g., wishmash.com. I've had offers for others where we couldn't work out a deal -- not because I was asking too much, but because I wanted to sort out a way to ensure the domain was actually used, not just resold, and that got too tricky.
I'd love a way to have a sort of long-term escrow for a domain name, so I could let someone use it for an actual project... and if they get some traction, I'll sell it automatically for a fairly low price, and if they abandon the project, the domain reverts back to me instead of going to squatters.
How on earth does one distinguish between someone like yourself, who buys a domain name with a plan to use it in a project, from someone who just wants to sit on it until a high bidder comes along?
> I'd love a way to have a sort of long-term escrow for a domain name, so I could let someone use it for an actual project... and if they get some traction, I'll sell it automatically for a fairly low price, and if they abandon the project, the domain reverts back to me instead of going to squatters.
How is that different behavior from a squatter? You're just sitting on a domain until someone comes along who meets your criteria (project traction and some cash), instead of another's criteria (big bucks, and no cares about how it will be used).
I don't think there's any reasonable way to vet people who want to buy a domain. Nor would I want to see a vetting policy established. Part of the beauty of the current system, is that anyone can buy an unused domain on a whim.
> How is that different behavior from a squatter? You're just sitting on a domain until someone comes along who meets your criteria
I don't register the domain in the first place unless I have a good idea for what I'd like to do with it. I'm not registering them to sell... but I recognize that someone else may well also have a solid project idea, and the time right now to execute on it.
I'd like a way to graciously give way to those people.
If there is no such way, then I'll just keep the domain until I have the time to do the project I had in mind.
> Nor would I want to see a vetting policy established.
I think you misunderstood. I don't want a general vetting policy, just a way for (the minority) of people who feel domains should actually be used, to transfer domains among themselves.
> Part of the beauty of the current system, is that anyone can buy an unused domain on a whim.
Sure, I'm not talking about changing that. I'm just trying to create a third choice, beyond "I don't have time for my idea yet, so I'll sit on this domain until I'm ready" vs. "I'll let this domain expire and it definitely will be squatted when I'm ready." I want a 3rd option that recognizes that other people have project ideas.
I don't know of such a service, nor does it seem reasonable that "the market" would want such a service. Yes, it's a lofty goal but do you really want to be the "landlord" of the domain for years and years? "Hey, you kids! Keep it down over there!" doesn't sound exciting for either party.
You can park it on Sedo for free or you can put up a "For Sale" page on your own. Another idea is to put a line in the WHOIS that says "This domain is for sale".
I can't imagine it would be a business by itself, just a service that a company that already had domain tools could offer at a low price.
I don't imagine it like being a landlord -- the only judgement to be made would be "is this domain in-use" after X amount of time, and if so at that point they would buy it at the pre-arranged price.
If it's not, I'd get it back (and could use it for my own project idea, or let someone else try).
The driving idea is just that I want to use these domains, for a project sometime in the future, but I recognize that someone else's project starting today should trump that (and I don't want to charge them a lot for it).
Given that I don't want to milk them for a high price, if I just sell, then someone who only plans to resell will buy instead. Then the domain will be unavailable to me, and also off the table for people with project ideas who don't have lots of cash.
I think the most important advice I saw here was to not get attached. And this is probably a basic piece of advice that applies in all negotiations - always have an alternative (where possible).
I recently got my four letter domain for a very reasonable price when I made it clear that the domain seller that I was willing to change the name. When people know that you're an emotional buyer, that's when you get screwed.
I think it's an important distinction to make when describing domain name disputes.