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> While I'm not claiming that the US is currently close to totalitarianism

A useful line of thought: what would it take for you to say that it was?




If history is any guide, the establishment of totalitarianism has so far required:

A) A government in possession of excessive repressive measures.

B) A general state of popular anxiety.

C) A highly symbolic crisis.

Historical examples include the infamous Reichstag fire in Nazi Germany [1], as well as the lesser known attempt on Lenin's life in Soviet Russia [2] and the duke of Brunswick's capture of Verdun in Revolutionary France [3]. Each of these crises enabled the respective governments to implement extraordinary measures that violently suppressed civil liberties and political opposition.

Thus I have little doubt that we've escaped a close call after 9/11. A follow-up attack, even of moderate proportions, may have enabled an honest-to-God police state by now. Judging by politicians' reactions to the Boston bombing, that danger is by no means behind us.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire#Political_conseq...

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror#History

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Massacres#Reports_of_...


A) Our government doesn't need to engage in active repressive because our financial disparity is already so repressive - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6057191


There are probably a lot of people who do think that the US is close to some kind of totalitarianism, but when speaking about it they might add a disclaimer because otherwise they're grilled by others saying "you have no idea what totalitarianism is, look at how life was in this other country. You're being naive and over-dramatic, etc".

The problem with that view is that such a state will never look exactly the same as it did in another country in another time. As long as we're using another country's situation and behavior as a strict metric for what totalitarianism/fascism/etc "actually" is, some serious problems will fly by with too little attention given.


Yeah, I wonder that too.

Im not being clever here, I think that the US is getting like that, but really deep down it doesn't feel like a Nazi Germany (or the like), but it sure is displaying signs of it. So, I'm not even sure what I think, and what the tipping point is where you can say that the US is in that group.

One thing I wonder about is whether its simply presentation? Its is simply that the US has a veil of democracy? Which people can vote, will it ever be seen as a totalitarian state, or stasi like, etc?

One problem I have is that Americans voted for this and previous government and there for must approve of what the USG does. "USA, USA, USA", and all that. Then I wonder if Americans are basically brain washed with this "best country in the world" nonsense, and this "they hate our freedoms" line, which is a contradiction in its self.

Perhaps the US is something new? A democratic fascist state, or something? I mean, the US people have no problem with the likes of Bush threatening countries with bombing back to the stone age to get their own way. No problem with killer flying robots murdering suspects on foreign soil with out permission of that country. No problem with CIA kidnapping and torture for dirty worthless foreigners.

Only when Americans feel the USG is threatening them do they get upset. But frankly, screw non Americans, they are not human or equal. Seems to me Americans enjoy their world power, love licking every one else around, but suddenly, when its them.....

I think what the US is today is very much like bad countries in the past who had disproportionate power and use it to further their own ambition at the expense of every one else. But unlike previous states, the US does it with its own democratic vote that makes it all just fine.

What name you give that, I don't know.

The one single thing that does worry me though is this notion that Americans are some how more valuable, more human, more important that any other people. That different rights apply. To Americans, we are not all human first.

YES I know not ALL Americans think like that. But the democratic results and opinion poles suggest that in the main, most Americans do. I have to say there does seem to be a huge difference between Americans who travel abroad and those who don't. I also include those who spend a lot of time professionally interacting with the rest of the planet too.

The internet has expanded that, just like here, on this site. I see hope here. I see Americans with a far better world view. HN, IMHO, has really helped me with that.


Nazi Germany never felt like Nazi Germany at the time, either. Besides having first-hand accounts of what the lead-up to WWII felt like (my grandfather wrote extensively about it, and his experiences during the war), if it felt like it, Jews would've left.

The really amazing thing about it is that everyone in Germany (Jewish or not) just thought it was a lot of hot air, and would blow over.

It's really worth reading some history books.

The part that scares me most is that while things look benign enough (as they do now), anyone in power can manufacture evidence, present it to a secret court and thus efficiently side-line and silence an adversary. For no other reason than not liking your face, for saying the wrong thing, being too good at something, sleeping with the wrong person...

You just disappear. No court, no recourse. Life destroyed.


>if it felt like it, Jews would've left

Many did.

"The United States was another destination for German Jews seeking to leave the country (in the 1930s)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Germany

"In February 1933 while on a visit to the United States, Einstein decided not to return to Germany due to the rise to power of the Nazis" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

"(in 1938) Interrogation of Anna Freud by the Gestapo finally convinced Freud it was time to leave Austria." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud


Many ordinary Jews wanted to leave including my great grandparents and their relatives. The US put up a quota to keep most of them out and none of their visas were ever granted. Other than my great uncle who went to the US in early 1930 and my grandmother who survived a camp (my mom stayed hidden for two years). The remainder all died in camps. My mother told me my great grandfather continued to believe he was as good a german citizen as anyone right until they took him away in 1943.

Well known Jews could get out at least until the war.


I think the correct assertion would have been that more Jews would have left. Even the information you linked to suggests that, at least as of 1938, many Jews weren't convinced they had to leave yet.


Emmigration is difficult, especially if you're in the middle class.

What would need to happen for you to abandon your job/business, home, extended family and friends and home to move to another country? I don't know what the answer is, but I think in a similar circumstance my first instinct would be to hunker down and wait for things to blow over.

If you're poor and striving, I think these decisions are a bit easier. My grandparents all immigrated to the US from Ireland between 1929-1946. For them, the complete lack of opportunity made it the only decision that made sense.


You're probably right. The info above also suggests that 1993 was early and 1938 was late to leave.

By some co-incidence, the BBC is talking about this today here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23261289

Spooky23 is probably also right - it seems easier to move if you're at the top (internationally known and/or could walk into a good new job) or at the bottom (nothing much to lose), but harder at the middle class.


Do you have any suggestions on the books?

For example, I really liked "Last Night I Dreamed of Peace" about Vietnam war (and since I'm from ex-Soviet country lot of the stuff there really resonates with me) but I'm not sure where to start about WW2.


The US did elect Obama, who prior to being president was crystal clear that he'd put the aggressive policies of the bush administration (both foreign and domestic) behind us. I think we did vote for a change of policy. Too bad obama either lied or has been coopted by "the system"


I was agree with your analysis of the political system, but not so much with your analysis of the people. You give them both too much credit and not enough.

First, no one really cares that citizens can be targeted or tortured with no trial (in fact, many call for it as in the case of the Boston bomber). This is tragic, but true.

Second, as much as the rest of the world wants to pretend this isn't the case, the same attitudes are equally present in most of the rest of the western world, from the ethnocentrism (which is a much bigger problem pretty much everywhere else) to the militarism and acceptance of big brother (don't even get me started on the Brits who accept a government which literally puts cameras in their homes).

Edit: requested info on home surveillance: http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/115736/Sin-bins-for-wors...


> a government which literally puts cameras in their homes

What?


There's the idea that democracy was created to solve revolts and revolutions. People are a whole lot less likely to do either if they feel they have some 'power' in the process of voting people in or out. "It's only a few more years..."


Not unlike being a Roman citizen, perhaps? We have rights, but why don't you go and crucify some rabble rousers, Mr. public official?




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