Brazilian citizen here, but living in the US. I never thought I'd say this, but I really wish I was back there to take part in the protests. Brazil finally has a chance to change for the better.
For those of you who don't know what's going on, or who are being fed incorrect information by the media: protests started because of a small increase in bus fares, but that was just the trigger to the whole thing. Brazilians are fed up with all the crap the government has been doing for decades, unscrupulously stealing tax payers' money for their own benefit. Many will say this happens everywhere, even in the most developed countries, but people from developed countries usually have no idea and can barely picture how rampant corruption is in Brazil.
Brazil is not a poor country. It's one of the biggest economies in the world. But if you go down there, it will pretty much look like a poor country. Despite the strong economy and the ridiculously high taxes, there is very little income redistribution. Besides the income inequality, another thing that piss Brazilians off is the fact that everything has to be paid in double: you pay taxes for public education (even the university is free), but it's so shitty you have to pay for a private school for your kids; you pay taxes for the universal health care system, but it's so shitty (dozens of people die on the line for life-critical procedures) you have to pay for private health care (which is usually shitty too, but not nearly as shitty as the public one); you supposedly pay taxes for public safety, but it's nonexistent to a point people have to leave behind gates (I had to go through 2 gates and 2 doors, with 5 keys in total, to enter my aparment there) and bared windows and pay for private security companies to secure their homes.
Brazilians have had enough. The current generation of youths is much more connected and aware of the country's problems, and usually have a much better idea that the situation outside (read US, Canada, Europe and Australia, popular destinations for studying or working abroad) is better and that a better life is possible, and it won't take it anymore. It's finally time for a change.
I went to a job interview at the Brazilian National Laboratory of Synchrotron Light. Its the only particle accelerator in Latin America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laborat%C3%B3rio_Nacional_de_Lu...). When I got there the Taxi driver dropped me off about a 10 minute walk away and I had to walk down a dusty mud track in order to get to at the centre. It seemed such a weird contrast to the gleaming and modern facility itself that I asked the guy interviewing me at the end why they didn't build a proper road to it.
He said - 'Officially, there is a road there. We raised the money and the local authorities built it. It just never appeared.' I assume this kind of corruption is everywhere in Brazil.
'Officially, there is a road there. We raised the money and the local authorities built it. It just never appeared.'
I am a huge fan of Brazilian culture, but what you described is why so many aid programs fail. People know that more money should go to educated, but they have no way to ensure it doesn't get diverted.
I went to grad school in a public university (UFRGS) there for a while, and that kind of contrast was present there too. The campus looks like an abandoned place, with tall grass everywhere, stray dogs, old buildings full of cracks, etc. But inside the labs, it's a completely different story: high-end machines, lots of computing resources, you name it. Professors make good use of grant money, but the administration doesn't take good care of the campus, probably because a lot of the money that goes to that is diverted somewhere along the way.
The so called leaders of the original movement (against the raise in the bus fares) were on an interview today and negated that the protests are because "Brazilians had enough" though. [1] They said that even though all the people are commenting on their Facebook profile for days that it's not about the bus fares anymore.
The people on the protests are already being manipulated by the original movement, by left wing and right wing. Even the mass media and Internet celebrities are capitalizing on it, each claiming the protests to be whatever they feel like. The swing on the public opinion between last monday and today is so severe that it is scary, a clear study in group dynamics.
Without an objective, this is more like a massive flashmob than a real movement. It's also a catastrophe waiting to occur, all it takes is one radical leadership to pop up.
I hope the people get more critic or this won't achieve anything meaningful, will just fulfill the ego of the people who went to the protests to have an Instagram pic of it on their profile.
At least there at thousands of people out there, and the government can see they won't have it forever. I guess that's the main point of it. It doesn't matter if the protests started for a reason and turned into something else. People are fed up, period. They are going out there to express their contempt for one of the world's most abusive and corrupt governments.
Some are saying they are going to invade the National Congress. I really hope they do.
Brazilian Living in Australia here. I hope they do too and kick Renan Calheiros out of it... he so deserves it.
A convicted criminal being the president of a Chamber that represents the people is one of the biggest shames of our country right now, at least for me.
Unfortunately, he is not the only problem here. It will be a good thing if it happen, but does not solve the huge problem we have in Brazil. The Chamber is just a sample of our society, the corruption is everywhere.
Brazilian here, fortunate enough to have walked alongside the protesters yesterday in Rio de Janeiro (while it was still peaceful).
It does seem like a massive flashmob, but my guess is that it comes from all the time we've been numb and asleep and removed from all the crap that's been happening. I know that, in order to get objective results, we need to have objective... well, objectives. :) But if a giant "occupy Brazil"-style flashmob is what it takes for us to understand what's going on and the power we have, then I'm all for it.
Is there any good example of a modern country transitioning from a high-corruption country to a low-corruption country?
Call me cynical, but I haven't seen a mass protest movement do a whole lot of good lately. The arab spring seems to have provided an opening for a lot of radical Islamic movements and hasn't improved the quality of life for anybody. Egyptians are suffering economically.
Arguably, the situation in Argentina improved a lot after a the 2001 protests. I'm not a great fan of teh current government, but I think they are adequate. And I don't think we've had an adequate government sin the 60s. If anything, it's nice to be able to say that when people protests nowadays is because they can't protect their savings as well as they used to, instead of protesting because they are in real risk of starving to death as they were a decade ago.
Just came back from Buenos Aires... while some things improved, they're NOT adequate. The desperate economic measures will end up cratering the country again (I mean, they already have, only the effects will be felt in a few months or years).
Protect their savings? They can't even sell their property in a "hard" currency, and government is blatantly inflating away people's money. When the artificial dollar cracks, the facade will crumble and people WILL be hungry.
What I see is things improving from the bottom up instead of from the top down, for the first time in a very long time. For people who are nearer to the top (and this includes a large sector of the middle classes that looks up to the top percenters), this looks like a step back, as they can't see the benefits of the things that are improving. But I really believe in the long run, this is the only plan that won't destroy the country.
To me, things just seems better. I hope you are wrong.
I hope I'm wrong too :P I live in Uruguay and we'll feel the backlash.
I'm probably being too harsh on the government, they are doing redistributive policies - whether that's the best thing to do with the money I'm not sold, but at least they aren't stealing it all or handling all of it to contractors.
However, while all this helps in the short run, on the outside it looks like it will destroy a lot of things in a not so distant future. Argentina will recover as usual, but the next few years look like a repeat of 2001.
This extends to imports as well, often the duties run up around 100% of the item price. Not only that but items get stuck in customs for weeks as I assume they go through everything to level these duties.
From the outside selling things into Brazil it seems like a pretty bad situation. People seem to be used to it there though and just expect the import process to be painful.
I forgot to mention that one, thanks for the note. And that is done in the name of protecting the local market, which is nonexistent for most things we want to import.
Replace Brazil with Argentina, and everything you two have said would still be correct. As a country, we are much more alike than we like to acknowledge.
It seems then that the Brazilian governments have good press then.
In general Latin America countries are very similar, but I think developed countries are moving to populism too (think Obama). Obviously right now comparing US with Brazil is comparing apples and oranges.
The quality of life in developed countries is much better but in US you don't have a public health system. I know that the quality of public health is not the best in Latin America but you have a chance to have a good physician and advanced treatment for free. Poor people in the region can move to countries like Argentina, obtain a citizenship and be included in the health system. I am not trying to be a relativist, just giving more information to people who doesn't know about these things.
There is a lot missing at least from the media here in the UK. It seems to be being spun as a bad thing to appease us because in the major cities in the UK, it's exactly the same by the sounds. If someone drew a comparison, shit would kick off.
I do get the feeling the UK is declining into exactly the same situation at the moment.
I mean we had riots kicking off all over the place a couple of years ago.
Non Brazillian, but I spent two months traveling parts of the country (São Paulo, Niterói , marituba (near Belém) - and the favela's (where I spent a lot of my time) made me initially think that Brazil was a very, very poor country - until I had a chance to look up the OECD stats [1] on Brazil - they are ranked firmly in the middle (on a GDP per capita, PPP). The security situation is pretty sketchy - I thought it was bad in the United States (having come from Canada) where everyone locks the door - even when they are at home - Every apartment I visited in São Paulo had a full-on-data-center-class man trap, with an elevated (and shielded) security guard to let you in. I've never seen anything like that in the United States outside of Data Centers.
Security was the #1 reason why I wanted to move out of the country. After my 4-year old stepdaughter saw her aunt being assaulted in broad daylight in a park, I definitely knew we couldn't stay there anymore.
While there are programs for income redistribution, and they do make an enormous difference on the lives of most of the poor people that receive it, it is far from enough.
The Bolsa Família program pays from USD$ 16.00 to a maximum of USD$ 153.00 (few people get the max amount) per month to a family. This benefit is payed to some 12 million families.
Just to give a more general view of the context. Brazil has the concept of a minimum monthly salary, that currently amounts to USD$ 334.15. But many people (even if employed) don't get a minimum wage per month.
On the other hand, while Brazil has the world's 7th biggest economy (already adjusted by purchasing power parity), the bottom half of the population (~85 million people) only get 13 per cent of all household income.
Yeah, the Bolsa Família was a relatively inexpensive political move to bolster Lula's populist image, while behind closed doors his corruption was business as (if not great than) usual.
My university is right next to a soccer stadium holding a Confederation's Cup game. Since the effect of these and other upcoming sporting events on public works is a major cause of vindication, a large group of protesters tried to move near the stadium and ended up clashing with riot troops. I was at one of entrances into campus, when police started throwing tear gas and shooting rubber bullets almost indiscriminately while yelling that anybody who stayed was going to get beaten.
I just hope the mass doesn't get manipulated into doing anything stupid, because the attempts already started.
Left-wing sympathizers (including the original movement) are already manipulating the protests. A portion of the people in the protests diverged and tried to break into the state hall (where the governor sleeps). Why, if the bus fares are controlled by the city mayor? They should be protesting on the city hall, but they won't, for obvious political implications since the mayor is left-wing.
Right-wing are also joining the protests now in an attempt to overthrow. The anti-corruption sentiment of the general population can be fuel to an impeachment of left-wings in power in the following days.
The media at large is also reporting the happenings in a positive light only. We all know this can't be good, a functional media is one that shows two sides of the story, but it seems most media outlets are too scared to disagree.
Finally, the moral judgment already started on the social networks. Anyone who doesn't join the protests gets alienated. Since social networks amplify positive feedback only, things are turning into an echo chamber.
Different than other brazilians, I'm not 100% happy the "people are waking up", I'm actually scared because it's just a bunch of fed up people hitting the streets without a clear objective.
This has the potential to be really good if the people put political parties aside and keep putting pressure on important matters in the following days; but can also be catastrophically bad if radical leaderships pop up from this.
They marched to the state hall because Alckimin (São Paulo governor) has the control over the military police (yes, our everyday police is military), and after the brutality of 06/13 it seemed only logical.
If monday protests were pacific and the police showed they didn't touched anyone, why seek revenge then? That makes absolutely no sense, just shows how it was a portion of idiots being manipulated by extremists.
This started because of a raise in bus fares, but the fact that more and more people are protesting has a lot to do with police brutality in repressing the first protests.
Most people in Brazil don't usually protest (nor actually fill complains when wronged), due to a variety of reasons.
But whenever there is a protest it is quickly classified into either: a) "just vandalism", or b) "peaceful protests".
For what the media/elite calls as 'a)', the typical Brazilian attitude is quite weird. Most people in Brazil have this very fascist view that police should be brutal with "criminals". Whoever they might be. As long as not themselves.
However, for the rarer cases where 'b)' happens (and is viewed as such by most people), which was the case here, it might be different. In the current case, police brutality backfired and became one of the main reasons for the escalation of protests and its spread to other cities.
The protesters passed by my street on the way to Paulista Avenue, and I have to admit that seeing all those people walking singing the national anthem was simply amazing. Something to tell my grandsons :)
Last number I heard on the TV reported 75K people in Sao Paulo, though the authorities told the media that would announce the updated numbers only after the protests.
The movement leaders have already created a new event on FaceBook, calling all protesters to gather together again tomorrow, at 5PM on Se Square.
In Brazil especially it's far more important for these protests to materialize into organized political action and public debates. Overthrowing the government of Brazil would be unhelpful, Brazil has something approaching a functional democracy (certainly comparable to democracy in America during many parts of its history). That should not be thrown away. And with concerted political action it can be strengthened rather than weakened, as can liberty. I fear the temptation of the powerless to exercise power, even in the form of a violent mob, could outweigh the desire to fight for the deep, long-term changes that will actually see the country improve.
I dont think "America" is a good example of democracy..
Brazil is very sofisticated in terms of democracy than US is in many levels..
US economical development was in part because the industrial lords could do whatever they want without many concerns.. here we got more discussions about social aspects, and more people from diferent ways of views..
You see moviments like ocuppy were really choked by the mass media and
the politics in the very beginning..
People who dares to face against the status quo get convicted as traitors, get killed or are invited to leave the country (Chaplin)
One funny detail about the article I couldn't help noticing: the article talks about "scaling the roof" of the National Congress building conjuring up an image of the people swarming over and laying siege to some kind of national fortress. But of course the National Congress rooftop[1] is one of the most accessible rooftops in the world being at road-level and visited by thousands of tourists on a regular basis.
I am really proud to see this here. I was there and I can say that it was the largest demonstration since the military dictatorship era more than 20 year ago.
I'm Brazilian and Carioca... I was at Rio's protest yesterday and it was BEAUTIFUL.
I'm against all kind of violence and vandalism, unfortunatelly we had a few people that caused a LOT of damage to the city in the very end, but almost every story you hear about manifestations and protests ends the same way everywhere in the world... so I leave for each one what you feel about this.
We are just sick of swallowing all the sh*t and public abuses that Government throw at us and we just complain in silence, this time people went to the streets and showed that if we manage to organize ourselves and keep pushing (peacefully, of course), we might achieve something meaningful... like, for instance, RESPECT.
What does this have to do with Hacker News? From the guidelines:
> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
> Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link.
Because it always results in the same exchange of dialogue. If you don't think a post is appropriate, flag it. That does something that might result in action. All commenting does is consume space for nowt.
Well, that was my motivation. It's been on the front page for 6 hours now. Obviously the flagging system is broken for popular off-topic submissions. (We are all in agreement that this submission is flagrantly off-topic, right?)
For those of you who don't know what's going on, or who are being fed incorrect information by the media: protests started because of a small increase in bus fares, but that was just the trigger to the whole thing. Brazilians are fed up with all the crap the government has been doing for decades, unscrupulously stealing tax payers' money for their own benefit. Many will say this happens everywhere, even in the most developed countries, but people from developed countries usually have no idea and can barely picture how rampant corruption is in Brazil.
Brazil is not a poor country. It's one of the biggest economies in the world. But if you go down there, it will pretty much look like a poor country. Despite the strong economy and the ridiculously high taxes, there is very little income redistribution. Besides the income inequality, another thing that piss Brazilians off is the fact that everything has to be paid in double: you pay taxes for public education (even the university is free), but it's so shitty you have to pay for a private school for your kids; you pay taxes for the universal health care system, but it's so shitty (dozens of people die on the line for life-critical procedures) you have to pay for private health care (which is usually shitty too, but not nearly as shitty as the public one); you supposedly pay taxes for public safety, but it's nonexistent to a point people have to leave behind gates (I had to go through 2 gates and 2 doors, with 5 keys in total, to enter my aparment there) and bared windows and pay for private security companies to secure their homes.
Brazilians have had enough. The current generation of youths is much more connected and aware of the country's problems, and usually have a much better idea that the situation outside (read US, Canada, Europe and Australia, popular destinations for studying or working abroad) is better and that a better life is possible, and it won't take it anymore. It's finally time for a change.