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Nasty Gal, an Online Start-Up, Is a Fast-Growing Retailer (nytimes.com)
168 points by chriscampbell on March 25, 2013 | hide | past | favorite | 86 comments



I don't know anything about fashion but I spoke to some friends who are lifelong fashion addicts. Apparently in the fashion blogosphere they're more well known for copying small designers than they are for the quality of their clothing:

http://la.racked.com/archives/2013/01/09/nasty_gal_engages_i...


Ripping off designs seems to be a problem with some fashion companies.

Someone posted this link on HN a while ago, and it's pretty shocking just how blatant some copying is. (http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/)

About your link: Nasty Gal could have handled that a lot better. Something like "Hey, we're really sorry that your design got ripped off. We've written privately to you to explain how this happens. We like the design, and we want to keep selling it, so we've also written to you about that. And you point out something that's a problem (link to competitors ripping off designers) - we want to help. So we've got a "report the rip off" site here, and if we're ripping off a designer we'll put things right!". That would have got them a lot of credit amongst designers, and maybe among customers.


Amancio Ortega has made $50 billion copying other designers. Sincerest form of flattery and all that.


NYT had a great article about Zara.

The bottom line was basically that you can have the best design in the world, but if the competition has a better distribution chain, their imitation will be out in stores, before yours are.

I thought it was pretty interesting to read about the importance of the logistics of a fashion label.


As a Supply Chain professional, Amancio Ortega is one of my biggest role models. Their returns rate is almost zero, their discounting is nonexistent, their conception-to-floor time is two weeks, and they manage to do all that with the labor costs found in a developed economy.

It surprises me that the fashion industry has largely overlooked Zara as a technical leader, referring to them as nothing more well-practiced copycats. It is just a pathetic excuse. Zara can create a similar design (they never blatantly copy, they always have their own spin), mass produce a garment and sell 50k units in less time than it takes the original creator of the "copied" garment to solidify a production plan with a Honduran Maquila with a 6 month lead time.

New fashion companies should be aware that if they can't compete logistically, they have no chance at survival. Old fashion companies with bad logistics practices are only squeaking by due to brand cachet.


I don't think Zara's supply chain innovation has gone unnoticed. I think many if not most in the fashion industry understand that it's the reason they excel.

I'm wondering what other industries are ripe for disruption-by-supply-chain. Dell did it to PC, Zara did it to fashion, FedEx did it to post...


There are several reasons they excel, but when I did a Harvard Business Case about them the main factors were the supply chain innovation due the ability to move quickly and keep less inventories + not having to hire expensive designers by copying = fast copying. http://hbswk.hbs.edu/archive/4652.html


... Steve Jobs did it, when he ordered all remaining air transportation way back when and blocked everyone else from using it. It may have been before the iPod.

Tim Cook is a bit of a logistics genius as well.


Conception-to-floor is 2 weeks? I'd love to read about that if anyone has any relevant links.


The NYT article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/magazine/how-zara-grew-int...

As I understand it, H&M has a similar supply chain/business model, but Zara came along and turned it up a notch. From my not-really-interested totally non-scientific observations, Zara does seem to be expanding faster than H&M at the moment.


Thank you!

"They also monitor customers’ reactions, on the basis of what they buy and don’t buy, and what they say to a sales clerk: “I like this scooped collar” or “I hate zippers at the ankles.” Inditex says its sales staff is trained to draw out these sorts of comments from their customers. Every day, store managers report this information to headquarters, where it is then transmitted to a vast team of in-house designers, who quickly develop new designs and send them to factories to be turned into clothes."


I have the impression that Zara is much better (and sells much more) in portugal than here in brazil. No idea why though - we're a big market.


Seems like just the time in the container being shipped would eat up a lot of that.


Air Freight is used extensively by Zara.


How does protection work on fashion? Anyone got a tldr on fashion copyright/design protection?


There's an interesting 1hr podcast (with transcript) here: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2010/06/blakely_on_fash.htm...

The tldr is: In the fashion industry there is limited protection for innovative designs and as a result, copying is rampant. Despite the ease of copying, innovation is quite strong in the industry and there is a great deal of competition.

I would add that, (1) the clothing industry is similar now to the the time IP was being legislated so it was directly addressed rather than derived by similarity to other areas. Its a little more logical and true to the original goals of IP than areas that derive. (2) There is a big element of hivemind/zeitgeist/emergence in fashion because people invent their own outfit every time they dress. (3) The combination of innovative fashion & quality is what makes high fashion brands valuable. (4) the lack of IP protection actually fuels innovation as a design will remain somewhat exclusive for a season only.


This is an excellent podcast. There was a similar video a while back, actually showing the garments that they talked about, but I can't seem to find it.

What I find most humorous about those that are so bent out of shape about the copying is that they themselves are copycats, but they hold themselves to different standards. To them, it is okay to copy a design from 10-20 years ago, or to pull 10 different design elements from a current design...but if someone does it to them, they want to sue. The simple fact is that design elements of contemporary fashion are always recycled. Runway fashion is innovative (from an art and design perspective, as much as this crowd would probably laugh at that), but not marketable, as most people (even fashionistas) do not want to be walking art exhibitions.


I'm guessing it was the ted talk by the same person.

http://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakley_lessons_from_fashio...


Interesting. I think anyone interested in software patents should listen to the first 10 minutes of this. Good info about utilitarian-ness being the reason clothing design is free of protection.


Lululemon, maker of high-end yoga and exercise apparel, patented some design elements on their yoga pants.

They sued Calvin Klein when they started to make some similar pants. It was settled out of court:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/lululemon-calv...


There is also an interesting TED talk of the virtues of copying in the fashion industry: http://on.ted.com/8RlP


A design is non-protectable, which is why they generally keep things moving fast or cover it with logos which are protectable and gives them leverage to go after copies.


You can't copy someone's logo. Otherwise, copy whatever design you like.


There are many companies who do just that and make a killing.

Jack&Jones, HM, GAP, Banana Republic etc.

Most people just want to look contemporary without looking trendy. Think about it as curation for the common man.


Competition in action, reducing prices for consumers. I like it!


You like big players using their vast resources to steal from "up and comers" who have no way of defending themselves? I find that attitude utterly disgusting.


It's called capitalism.


Adam Smith (you know, the "father of capitalism") would disagree.

I don't want any part of the system you call "capitalism" no matter what it's name is.


Wow looks like an exact copy. Amazing how they try to brush it off as an accident.


Wow. That's like something out of the commentary for a YouTube video.

One wonders how someone presumably in charge of PR could have gone about it that way.


Yet their customers keep coming back for more.


Paywall-less Google link to article: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&#...


Sophia gave a very good, albeit a bit long, interview recently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y04gnM57Sow

This has a lot more insights into how she built Nasty Gal, and how she raised her series A.


Wow....thanks for this.

I LOVE this girl. She built Nasty Gal in the most healthy way possible. LOVE IT!!


Is there a transcript somewhere?


Downtown LA is home to a thriving fashion startup scene, but it doesn't get much coverage (aside from male-led startups like ShoeDazzle) because fashion isn't something that the (largely male) startup world understands.


what other companies are in that scene that I wouldn't have heard of?


Combatant Gentlemen ( http://www.combatgent.com )


Is there seriously a sex scene in the background?!


That... is tacky.


But in a way a lot more honest than 99% of the implicit sex-driven advertising.


The notion that you will get laid because you bought a $160 suit is about as dishonest as it gets.


In what way is that dishonest? Wearing better clothes instead of ugly ones makes you more attractive to the opposite sex, that's just a fact.


At least it's in HTML5! That's worth something, right?


Completely in line with fashion photography/advertising.


There are some interesting made-to-measure companies too, like Blank Label and Indochino. Not sure if either lives in L.A., however.


also our dutch startup, fashiolista.com


that being said, i get emails about fashion startups from tech-y outlets like general assembly and the like most every week now...


This seems like a great founder/product fit. She's hip/cool/fashionable and knows her product and demo pretty well.

I really like the fact that stuck through the grind, and slowly built up a loyal following. I think that is something missing from a lot of start-ups in the valley right now. People tend to shut down their projects when people don't come flocking. This also might be a testament to just building something people want.


There's nothing in that article that suggests she "did a startup" though, which is the other side of the coin. She resold some clothes on ebay to make a few extra bucks, and it grew from there.


What's your definition of startup? She started a company and it grew. Works for me.


I run in to loads of people that want to "do a startup". They've subscribed to the culture of 'tech startup', they know all the buzzwords, go to the right networking events, learn about VC and term sheets before they even have a product or service, and so on.

She did have a Virgin tattoo, and was/is a fan of Branson from an early age; I'm assuming from that she had a head for business early on, and built from that, but that is miles different from the 'startup culture' I run in to these days ("how many accelerators have you applied to? are you on angel list?" etc)


I'm surprised to read Nasty Gal being seen as a fad - what indicators of stability are stronger than 6 years of consistent growth? Don't fashion fads have a single season 6 month life expectancy?


For a brand like Nasty Gal, it's dependent on the people running it and their ability to constantly shift with the tide. Very few can do it, but some entrepreneurs do pull it off (and they often end up as huge fashion brands).

Fashion trends have a short life expectancy, but if you can change with them season after season, then you'll be a monster in the fashion world.


-e 's/fashion/startup/gI' -e 's/Nasty Gal/SomeStartup/gI'

For a brand like SomeStartup, it's dependent on the people running it and their ability to constantly shift with the tide. Very few can do it, but some entrepreneurs do pull it off (and they often end up as huge startup brands).

startup trends have a short life expectancy, but if you can change with them season after season, then you'll be a monster in the startup world.


So, you're Friendster one year, Facebook the other? Don't most industries work in the same "it-girl" cycles?


Not as extreme as fashion, there's a reason vogue is called vogue :)


A great success story. She just mapped her own personality online, and tried to make money out of it - which her company did, boatloads of. Could be a classic example of "look around, and try to solve a problem that you face yourself and people like yourself. that would be a great idea for a startup".


It would be interesting (but unlikely) to hear about the company's entire financial picture. After working in online fashion retail, it's clear almost nobody is making money, despite what their revenues are.


If you spend some time on their site, you'll notice they have huge margins.

eg: http://www.nastygal.com/clothes/paisley-sky-overalls

$78 for overalls.

Or $65 for a bikini bottom -

http://www.nastygal.com/clothes/righteous-bikini-bottom

It wouldn't surprise me at all if their net margin is great (compared to most retail).


That doesn't really mean much - most online fashion retail has similar markups, and nobody else is making money.

Edit: In the case of the 2nd piece, Nasty Gal probably isn't making much money on it at all. It's made in the USA (which is usually a higher cost item), and the direct from manufacturer price is 63 dollars. Thus, it's probably a drop ship item with a razor thin margin.


Nasty Gal initially started out by selling vintage clothes which happen to have huge margins. One piece she purchased for $8 sold for $1000. So I'm sure the margins are still there now that Nasty Gal is trying to become more of a brand. It wouldn't make business sense to abandon a profitable strategy only to shift and scale to a non-profitable one.


That is how most of the fashion sites start out. There's some point in time where they find a desperate luxury goods manufacturer willing to give them a deal, or meet a guy who inherited his family's shirt factory and wants to try out something new, or they get lucky selling a few pieces of vintage clothing. Then for a while, the site does very well.

Eventually they run out of high margin stuff to sell, because they literally run out of the stuff (in the case of vintage clothing) or their suppliers start raising their prices. Then they need to sell more stuff, which requires more employees, and bigger warehouses, which continues to eat at the margins.

There's also many copy cat fashion sites, since between 2009-present "fashion internet" seems to have been a trend for fresh MBA grads. I'm not really sure how they get started, but I'm pretty confident they also don't make any money.


Nasty Gal initially started out by selling vintage clothes which happen to have huge margins. One piece she purchased for $8 sold for $1000.

what about the other 100 she purchased at $150 and still are not sold? I made the numbers up but you cannot use an extreme case and assume the same applies to all.


How are they not making any money with the large margins they see? Could you elaborate?


Sites like these have huge expenses. In addition to having to pay staff ranging from programmers to models, they take on a lot of risk when they buy and warehouse the products. Consumers are fickle. If the site buys the wrong stuff, they are perpetually losing money on it as it takes up space in the warehouse.

The business model for online fashion retail is for the founders to extract as much cash as they can for themselves while it's hot and leave investors holding the bag when it's not.

I would take any article about such a company with grain of salt. One thing these companies do well is PR. Getting media placement often comes easy for them as employees of magazines, newspapers and blogs are often into fashion themselves and are eager to run a story about something they are personally interested in.


you seem to know about the costs associated with fashion retail. I would love some advice for my own start-up. Can we chat? My email is in my profile.


No retailer pays manufacturer-direct prices. Retailers pay wholesale prices, which are usually 1/2 to 1/3 (or even less!) of the manufacturer-direct price. The substantial discount reflects that the retailer takes on the bulk of the risk associated with marketing and actually selling the apparel.


Except the discount for drop ship is far less than if the retailer actually bought the goods and is shipping out of their own warehouse.


This might be off-topic, but it reminded me of some recently uploaded documentary footage of a 1996 LA teen subculture "Dirty Girls".[0]

0. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3MxEHQk644


Nasty Gal are killing it - my girlfriend is totally obsessed with them.


How does this company compare to Rue La La? http://www.ruelala.com/


Rue La La is a flash sale site (a la Gilt Groupe, Amazon's MyHabit, and so on). Their inventory changes pretty quickly (something like 48 hours, I think), and different brands are featured during each iteration.

NastyGal doesn't appear to have rolling inventory; rather it seems they have relationships with some set of brands, but the brands themselves aren't front and center. Moreover, NastyGal also appears to have its own brand, which RueLaLa does not (though Gilt Groupe does have its own Gilt Home (ie furniture) line).


Interesting story, but I find the whole cinderella angle extremely tiresome. Isn't cinderella about women dreaming about being courted by a rich man? Seems to me there are plenty of rags-to-riches stories/legends that are better fits - but then again, those are not about women...


"Cinderella Story" is now a pop phrase which simply means exceeded expectations. It is most commonly used in sports. In this context it fits perfectly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinderella_(sports)


Here is a great fireside chat with Nasty Gal's CEO Sophia Amoruso http://video.pandodaily.com/t6t2/fireside-chat-with-nasty-ga...


Grig Gheorghiu, their VP of ops, just did a great Q&A:

http://boundary.com/blog/2013/03/18/grig-gheorghiu-on-the-mu...

Yes, very hot company.


This seems like advert for 'eBay pages'.


Except that it mentions several key insights that the founder used to exploit market opportunities. She clearly has solid domain knowledge that allowed her to buy low and sell high, through not just thrift stores (which is labor intensive, but certainly not a new concept), but also identifying people who didn't have her expertise and thus didn't appreciate the value of the goods they were selling.

It also sounds like she had a model that allowed her to build an engaged userbase and enlist them to help her build the business.

Granted this is all just what one article says, but this is exactly the sort of thing you're supposed to do as a start up of any kind.

Sounds like a relevant success story to me.


She said that eBay was a terrible place to start a business.


"Ms. Amoruso also outgrew eBay, which she said was a terrible platform to start a business. Competitors started flagging Nasty Gal for breaking the site’s rules by, for example, linking to Ms. Amoruso’s Myspace page. Fed up, she decided it was time to start ShopNastyGal.com."


It's not just this. Many users are terrible and will leave you negative feedback based on what they are feeling that day, even if you did everything right.

I bend over backwards for my customers and still get negatives. College students seem to be the worst. If they don't get things exactly their way, you get a negative.


that's true and a really interesting company.


The eBay misspelling trick is nothing new: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ebay+mispelling


Worst use of lmgtfy ever?


Somewhat ironically, he misspelled the word misspelled....




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