This may be off-topic, but I thought I'd bring it up: in a nut shell, defensive "use once" less than lethal weapons for public areas. They would be strictly licensed and regulated by first responders, much like public defibrillators are.
While I found NRA's idea of arming teachers to be (let's be honest here, and I say this a strong second amendment supporter) absolutely nuts -- several people have circulated the idea of providing less than lethal weapons to teachers and administrators. I think most teachers (or most people in general) are not keen in owning a firearm, do not have the time to go through the training to use a firearm effectively in a high-stress scenario.
However (and this idea isn't original to me, I've seen it suggested elsewhere online) provide a modified than lethal weapon (e.g., a carbine length taser) in each classroom -- hidden behind glass door much like a fire extinguisher or a defibrillator would be. They would be given training in using this weapon to stop (or slow down) an opponent and there would be strict rules to ensure it cannot be used for any other purpose (e.g., it would have "drive-stun" capability removed and be limited to only a few rounds). Shattering the glass in any classroom would immediately set of alarms in all classrooms (giving other teachers time guide children to safety) and cause first responders to come (irrespective of time or day).
While mass shootings do not represent most of gun violence, they are especially unnerving. Generally, however:
1) Mass shootings are usually murder-suicide. Suicide here is either a primary (with murder being secondary) goal or a way of escaping retribution. If, on the other hand, the perpetrator knows they are more likely to be simply disabled and then arrested and thrown in prison, this creates further deterrence: it now makes more sense not to go through with the plan, to surrender right away before committing any violence.
Sentencing guidelines could reflect it: attempted school shooters who surrendered without firing a shot would receiving more lenient sentencing (but the case itself would be sealed, put on a gag order to prevent those seeking notoriety from making attempts), those are arrested by force would receive far stricter sentencing than those surrender voluntarily (idea being surrender voluntarily/commit no further crime crime < captured by force/commit no further crime < surrender voluntarily/commit further crimes < surrender by force/commit further crime).
Essentially the goal would be to sent two messages:
I) If you are suicidal, you're far more likely to fail, be captured, and have your life made much worse (on top of what ever is ailing you) if you try to "take others with you"
II) It is very difficult to escape retribution in a mass shooting, so the best strategy would be to either not attempt a mass shooting or to peacefully surrender without firing a shot.
2) Contrary to popular belief, mass shootings are not always in explici "gun free" zones (Giffords shooting, Portland Mall shooting, possibly the Aurora shooting) -- and usually a single armed guard or a CCW license holder might be there but wasn't be able to do much.
However, several shootings have been ended early by multiple unarmed individuals tackling a disoriented perpetrator. Obviously it is not expected for elementary school teachers to be able to tackle an assailant, yet this approach has the advantage that now there are multiple individuals (teachers in different classrooms) armed with less than lethal (which by no means means "non-lethal") tools that significant amplify their own physical ability and can disorient the assailant even without directly hitting the assailant (i.e., one volunteer using the weapon now makes the assailant more susceptible to additional uses of the weapon).
3) The less than lethal weapon should be designed with the purpose of making an otherwise untrained individual (with no firearms experience) not only able to incapacitate an assailant, but to also make them feel confident that they are able to.
That is why I think a "carbine/shotgun-length taser" might be better approach here than a hand-held tool: it would be easier to aim, look like a more menacing weapon, and fit a wider variety of individuals.
4) (Added this later) Teachers, guards, other volunteers have a "homeground advantage here" vis. an intruder. This would be more effective than a passer-by CCW holder in a mall.
5) (Also added later) Less than lethal weapon have less chance of causing serious damage to bystanders or those using the weapons.
In theory this is a good idea, but I'd be afraid of slippery slope. When a teacher comes upon two kids fighting, the temptation to use a "non lethal" emergency device to break up the fight would be a lot higher than the temptation to shoot one of them.
You might be able to deal with it by declaring use of the device the same as using lethal force, with criminal liability for any use where deadly force wouldn't have been otherwise authorized.
I would be ok with the NRA "arm the teachers" IFF the teachers were given ~10-14 week sheriff's deputy/POST level training, and volunteered, in addition to regular CCW. I couldn't imagine an elementary school teacher doing this, but a college professor or a high school science teacher or someone seems like a reasonable candidate. Putting full time armed guards at most schools is just insane from a cost-benefit perspective even if it did help (which I don't believe it would, overall). $1-5k of extra training for a volunteer teacher would be a lot more reasonable.
I would be ok with the NRA "arm the teachers" IFF the teachers were given ~10-14 week sheriff's deputy/POST level training, and volunteered, in addition to regular CCW. I couldn't imagine an elementary school teacher doing this, but a college professor or a high school science teacher or someone seems like a reasonable candidate.
I have been teaching middle school and high school math and science for 15 years, in 3 very different schools in different parts of the country. The NRA's proposal was frightening. When I look back at all the colleagues I've worked with, most of them would not want anything to do with guns in schools. The teachers I respect most, who have been respected most by their students, don't want anything to do with guns. But I can also pick out a good number of my former colleagues who would probably like to arm themselves. A good number of these are teachers who do not have particularly good rapport with their students.
Think how many bored smart kids there are in schools. Think of the stupid games kids play against their teachers to amuse themselves. Now imagine these bored, smart kids knowing their teacher is carrying a gun. I imagine kids goading teachers to show them their gun, to take it out, to pose with it, etc. Most armed teachers would take themselves quite seriously and never have an issue. But it takes just a small percentage of armed teachers to let their guard down for some pretty ugly things to happen.
Yep, that's why I find this insane on more than just practical grounds:
1) You can't teach someone to effectively and safely use a firearm if they do not wish to do so. Most teachers do not wish to own as much as use actual firearms.
2) A firearm is more than just a machine for sending a projectile at a certain rate in a certain direction. It has street value, it is considered "cool", etc...
I still remember when a DARE councilor (a policewoman) came to our school when I was first visiting the US in sixth grade: everyone kept asking to see her pistol (she had enough sense not to show it) and how she used it (her answer is once she was threatened by a man with a chainsaw, but avoided using the pistol), what would happen to her if she did, etc.... This was an absurdly upper-middle class elementary school in Cupertino, right next to Apple's Bubb Road buildings, etc. You can't even blame us "gun culture" as most of the kids were immigrants/children of temporary workers like myself (we later moved back to the United States on a permanent basis) and the community was very liberal.
It was a bit bizarre that she chose to carry it on her person to an elementary school, however. My home country is a quasi-fascist second-turned-third-world hell-hole yet majority of street police (at least when I lived time) did not carry firearms on them. Merely pepper spray and a rubber baton (which they would abuse extensively, of course).
> the temptation to use a "non lethal" emergency device to break up the fight would be a lot higher than the temptation to shoot one of them
I think that if it's made clear that the firearm is merely "less than lethal" (it can actually kill or maim), but simply less likely to hurt by standers people will get the idea.
> You might be able to deal with it by declaring use of the device the same as using lethal force, with criminal liability for any use where deadly force wouldn't have been otherwise authorized.
Yep, that's the idea. Unauthorized use is prosecuted, the clear expectation is that these may only be used in the same condition that a firearm could be used (keep in mind that these devices are usually not only firearms in the legal sense, but are also NFA-regulated due to caliber and/or barrel length).
I would go as far and say that they may only be used on students who are armed (but not necessarily with a firearm). Now that might have the opposite effect is that they will be less likely to use them in a genuine scenario -- however, merely shattering the glass and grabbing one would alert other teachers (this would be another cost against teachers using them to break up a fight). So exact laws are tricky, but not improbable to device (much like there are regulations on when teachers may or may not physically restrain students).
Plus there's also a few other things: if you genuinely ever want to use a less than lethal weapon (or _any_ weapon) on a elementary child to break up a fight, some kind of psycho-metric testing should have stopped you from becoming a teacher in the first place :-) On the other hand, in high school or middle school, a fight (or other non-deadly confrontation) can be broken up by, e.g., P.E. or wrestling coaches (they will be slower to engage, but this isn't a life and death situation).
1) Former Australian Prime Minister John Howard initiated our gun buyback scheme in 1996 and since then, our firearm related suicide rate has fallen 74% and we have not had a single gun massacre since (we had 13 in the preceding 18 years before it).
He wrote a piece on this for the NYTimes recently, linked below
It will be an unpopular position, especially amongst conservatives who seem to believe that Gun rights and right wing politics go hand in hand (I'll note that John Howard led our main conservative party in initiating the buyback).
It has surely worked for us. Our gun violence statistics have dropped dramatically since the scheme was implemented.
On the suicide issue, I honestly don't care about the gun suicide rate in isolation of the total suicide rate. I'm curious what happened to the overall Australian suicide rate (and, ideally, correct for any other changes going on at the same time, like Australia's current booming economy)
I generally agree that banning possession or even just sale of most guns would reduce the spree killing rate, but spree killings are essentially statistical noise relative to other violent crimes and gun-related violent crimes.
Australia also had a far lower number of guns at time of prohibition than the US does now.
I think a blanket ban on gun possession (or even sale) wouldn't have anywhere near as much of an affect on gang-related gun crime in the US as you'd hope, and would have related negative effects.
> I generally agree that banning possession or even just sale of most guns would reduce the spree killing rate, but spree killings are essentially statistical noise relative to other violent crimes and gun-related violent crimes.
Yes, exactly -- I don't think that stopping spree-killing (as dreadful as they are) -- validates a significant encroachment on what is considered a protected individual right.
The outright ban on most repeating firearms may have worked for Australia (less overall gun crime, no fundamental right to bear arms), but it would absolutely not happen in the US (liberals and conservatives would oppose it). At the same time, it would not significantly change public safety in general.
Addressing spree-shootings is a legitimate concern, but in the United States, it has to necessarily be addressed in a manner that involves the least possible restriction. The kind of solution Australia under took would require a constitutional amendment (which needs a super majority of states to agree), an insane budget for a buy back (there could be close to hundred of millions of these firearms at the least), and it would probably never come to fruition as majority of the US populace would oppose it and police would refuse to enforce it.
This isn't just about firearms: I'd imagine movies like "Innocence of Muslims" or groups like Westboro Baptist Church would be banned in many other first world countries. Upholding a statute that infringes on a Bill of Rights amendment requires an extra-ordinary cause ("fire in a crowded theater"/"clear and present danger" standard).
Individuals who suggest US follow the Australia or British model are well intentioned but are unaware of both how strongly gun rights advocates and gun owners feel on the issue (there is no magic "gun lobby", NRA is powerful because of donations from individuals) and the reality of day-to-day gun violence in the US (it is not what is shown on tv).
Yeah I agree with most of your points. Australia never had the gun culture the US had (even before the Gun buy back). Most people in urban areas did not own guns, it was (and remains) mostly farmers.
I don't have a citation, but I remember reading a justification for suicide prevention fences on bridges, that found that it didn't just stop suicides from that bridge, it did so without raising suicides in any other way (i.e it lowered the total suicides).
I've always found it difficult to think of a solution to America's "Gun Problem"... It is codified in their laws, and from that is deeply engrained in their culture. Any reform has to first start reforming the culture, in my mind.
On the other hand, violence is generally decreasing in the US, so it's quite possible non-coercive approaches could substantially affect the spree-shooting problem.
Deeper structural changes would be needed to fix the actual gun violence problem in US which is completely different from the spree shooting problem (they're two separate problems, effectively): the violent crimes committed by illegally kept pistols (straw purchased, stolen, inherited, bought off the books) and is usually closely related to the drug war. It is also a deep inequality issue: the poor and minorities are far more likely to be affected than suburban whites.
It also seriously limited access overall (either by law or by culture). Otherwise the gun suicide rate wouldn't have been affected, since most suicides are single-shot (except for Russians...), and shotguns/rifles are used more in suicides than they are used in murder.
Teachers don't need to be armed in case of a shooter just as teachers don't need to carry fire extinguishers in case of a fire.
Teachers DO need to be trained in what to do in a shooting just as they do when there is a fire. When there is a fire, we don't lock ourselves in the classroom waiting for the fire department to show up. We escape, we fight the fire (with fire extinguishers) until the fire department shows up to deal with the situation.
This is what the Israelis do, they have gun safes placed around the school that contain a handgun and a magazine. They train the school personnel on how to operate the weapon, they're not looking for the next Jason Bourne, just someone who can slow down (or possibly stop the shooter). Opening the safe automatically dials 911.
This has the same approach in that the weapon is hidden behind a safe and opening the safe means a call to first responders. I am very much in favour of this.
My issue is that in US environment that weapon can not be a firearm: neither the students nor the teachers can think rationally about firearms.
A less than lethal weapon differs only psychologically: I believe there is no difference under US between a civilian discharging a police-model Taser (with ability to shoot barbs) and a civilian discharging an NFA-licensed grenade launcher. Both are considered "lethal force" and subject to the same rules. Tasers are absolutely capable of causing death and I am actually in favour of restricting their police use: prohibit their use when a subject is not a threat to themselves or anyone else, allow their use in situations where otherwise a firearm would be used despite not being needed. Infamous cases where police used Tasers on non-compliant (but non-threatening) individualists should be treated similar to shooting and lightly injuring (or shooting and missing) a non-compliant individual.
So why "glorified Tasers" but not firearms for teachers? As a Russian-Jewish immigrant to the United States with many friends and relatives in Israel, I have to say Israel is not the US.
1) Irrespective of gender non-Hassidic Jews, along with Druze, Bedouins, Circassians, and many other ethnic groups are subject to military service. The military service is half-ways between Swiss-style militia (a non-standing army) and US military. After the initial service (during which they are often free to go home with their service rifle) they become reservists subject to being regularly called up.
1) Naturally that means they already have some background training, so this isn't an issue of them learning to shoot from anew -- more of learning to use a Glock 17 instead of an
an M1911 they used during training or in the reserves.
So even if they are issued an actual lethal firearm, said firearm would probably have to be a break-action pistol-caliber (or frangible .223) rifle rather than a pistol. A revolver would be simple from mechanical point of view but difficult to aim, while a shotgun would would have far too much felt-recoil (other than may be a .410).
2) Military service also instills a more balanced view of the firearm for both the teachers and the students: they will view the firearm as a tool and understand its dangers and limitations.
I think right now the view of firearms in US is dangerously split:
* Increasing super-majority (something like 70-75%) supports the individual right to posses firearms.
* The minority "guns are evil" side is fairly irrationally opposed to their use (e.g., it's one thing to think that firearms should not be owned by civilians, it's another thing to oppose civilians participating in shooting sports)
* Many gun owners and gun-rights defenders have these same "Jason Bourne" fantasies. It's nauseating to hear about how this or other shooting could have been stopped by conceal carriers holders. I fully support the idea of concealed carry (there are many legitimate reasons to do so), but it's asinine to think they can stop all crime. Actual statistics conceal carry alone does not actually change gun violence -- there's neither a marked increase nor a marked decrease. Crime rates have fallen since conceal-carry statues have been enacted in some states, but they also fallen across the board in the US.
* Young teens consider them to be somewhat of an accessory and a curiosity item.
I think not much good can come up if you a give a teacher that thinks "all guns are unequivocally evil" (or conversely "I could have stopped Columbine with my Ruger SP01") access to a firearm, while surrounding him with a crowd full of kids who have an unhealthy fascination with firearms.
If you train them to use a simplified version of what is a firearm in all but name, but is remarkably less dangerous to bystanders, evokes no emotions, and has no street value (no impetus for someone to disable the connection from safe 911, steal, and sell one) then it's a different situation. I think a purpose-built Taser-like weapon, in a school shooting scenario, would deliver 80% of the value of a small-caliber firearm anyway.
I've wondered a long time why there isn't more development of nonlethal weapons, something like a stun / tranquilizer gun.
I don't want a gun for my own self-defense, because, once you have a gun, and actually target someone, you have to be WILLING to fire it, and live with the consequences (automatic jail time here in my country, except in the most strenuous self-defense, and then only if the assailant had a gun himself).
However, I'm strongly considering a Taser for myself, after witnessing a particularly appalling mugging (I was to slow to intervene, which is actually a good thing, because I'm overweight and out of shape, I would have been beaten up).
Self defense sprays have come a long way in 30 years, and they can stop a bear. In fact a person using bear spray to stop a bear attack is less likely to be injured than a person using a gun. http://www.bearsmart.com/docs/BearSprayVsBullets.pdf
Well, there are no bears or dangerous wildlife in my country (except maybe for some bulls), but there are a lot of "planchas" which is the local brand of ghetto people, and drunk aggressive homeless people, and I've come close to getting hurt twice already this year.
I should look into a self-defense spray though :), with the added benefit of them being much cheaper.
There is much simpler solution to mass shootings. The one that is successfully used all over the world (was recently successfully implemented in Australia). Ban individual gun ownership and go back to the original intent of 4th amendment (before gun manufacturers twisted it) that gun ownership is legal for private organised law enforcement organisations.
I was under the impression that the person who asked those questions doesn't have mass shootings in mind.
Making guns accessible to nearly anybody and asking not to have mass shootings is like having gravity and asking not to have anything seriously damaged by the fall ever.
I think Russia allows "gas pistols" with a special license too. Nonetheless, a pistol like firearm in general is difficult to aim and use.
Mace is fully legal in the US, but not very efficient.
Actual tasers (those carried by police) are probably illegal in most countries as technically it's a short range grenade launcher (it uses an explosive charge). They are incredibly useful, but are unfortunately overused in cases where they are completely unwarranted. A simplified taser-like weapon would be more useful in this cases (little training, used by someone who is statistically likely to be opposed to firearms in general).
There are different kinds of pepper (OC) spray, too.
In general Mace kind of sucks, but OC spray is an adequate untrained-person defensive choice, and OC stream or OC foam can be used in a fairly targeted way and is useful -- maybe a carbine-length OC foam dispenser would make sense, combined with geolocator, 3000 lumen 5-minute flashlight, radio communications direct to the police, etc.
While I found NRA's idea of arming teachers to be (let's be honest here, and I say this a strong second amendment supporter) absolutely nuts -- several people have circulated the idea of providing less than lethal weapons to teachers and administrators. I think most teachers (or most people in general) are not keen in owning a firearm, do not have the time to go through the training to use a firearm effectively in a high-stress scenario.
However (and this idea isn't original to me, I've seen it suggested elsewhere online) provide a modified than lethal weapon (e.g., a carbine length taser) in each classroom -- hidden behind glass door much like a fire extinguisher or a defibrillator would be. They would be given training in using this weapon to stop (or slow down) an opponent and there would be strict rules to ensure it cannot be used for any other purpose (e.g., it would have "drive-stun" capability removed and be limited to only a few rounds). Shattering the glass in any classroom would immediately set of alarms in all classrooms (giving other teachers time guide children to safety) and cause first responders to come (irrespective of time or day).
While mass shootings do not represent most of gun violence, they are especially unnerving. Generally, however:
1) Mass shootings are usually murder-suicide. Suicide here is either a primary (with murder being secondary) goal or a way of escaping retribution. If, on the other hand, the perpetrator knows they are more likely to be simply disabled and then arrested and thrown in prison, this creates further deterrence: it now makes more sense not to go through with the plan, to surrender right away before committing any violence.
Sentencing guidelines could reflect it: attempted school shooters who surrendered without firing a shot would receiving more lenient sentencing (but the case itself would be sealed, put on a gag order to prevent those seeking notoriety from making attempts), those are arrested by force would receive far stricter sentencing than those surrender voluntarily (idea being surrender voluntarily/commit no further crime crime < captured by force/commit no further crime < surrender voluntarily/commit further crimes < surrender by force/commit further crime).
Essentially the goal would be to sent two messages:
I) If you are suicidal, you're far more likely to fail, be captured, and have your life made much worse (on top of what ever is ailing you) if you try to "take others with you"
II) It is very difficult to escape retribution in a mass shooting, so the best strategy would be to either not attempt a mass shooting or to peacefully surrender without firing a shot.
2) Contrary to popular belief, mass shootings are not always in explici "gun free" zones (Giffords shooting, Portland Mall shooting, possibly the Aurora shooting) -- and usually a single armed guard or a CCW license holder might be there but wasn't be able to do much.
However, several shootings have been ended early by multiple unarmed individuals tackling a disoriented perpetrator. Obviously it is not expected for elementary school teachers to be able to tackle an assailant, yet this approach has the advantage that now there are multiple individuals (teachers in different classrooms) armed with less than lethal (which by no means means "non-lethal") tools that significant amplify their own physical ability and can disorient the assailant even without directly hitting the assailant (i.e., one volunteer using the weapon now makes the assailant more susceptible to additional uses of the weapon).
3) The less than lethal weapon should be designed with the purpose of making an otherwise untrained individual (with no firearms experience) not only able to incapacitate an assailant, but to also make them feel confident that they are able to.
That is why I think a "carbine/shotgun-length taser" might be better approach here than a hand-held tool: it would be easier to aim, look like a more menacing weapon, and fit a wider variety of individuals.
4) (Added this later) Teachers, guards, other volunteers have a "homeground advantage here" vis. an intruder. This would be more effective than a passer-by CCW holder in a mall.
5) (Also added later) Less than lethal weapon have less chance of causing serious damage to bystanders or those using the weapons.