>You seem to deny that antisemitism hate propaganda is prevalent in the Muslim world? This is well documented.
No, I deny:
1) that this is the kind of "antisemitism hate propaganda" that "left wing idealists" (in the western world) embrace.
2) That this "antisemitism hate propaganda" is even prevalent or has any consequence in the Muslim world. I _lived and worked_ in some muslim countries. They could not care less for this stuff. Some do believe it, but it's not like they act on it. Do you know how many people in the Bible Belt believe similar things?
>Continue reading about the expulsion of the Jews for religious reasons -- they had the same religion as the state religion of Israel, if you want more.
Well, I know about that. I'm from Europe, we like History there. Doesn't have to do with present day muslim-israel relation though.
Actually, did you know that in the 19th century (and before), when Jews were persecuted in Europe, Russia and such, they lived mighty fine alongside muslim populations in muslim countries?
FWIW, the majority of jews persecution has happened by Europeans, by far. Including the Nazi's of course. Muslim states don't even come close, and even then they don't do it for religious reasons, but for political ones (ie they are not against jewism but against the politics of the state of Israel).
(Oh, and another tibbit: pro WW-II, the US was also full of anti-Semitism propaganda).
Seriously, you repeatedly contradict already given Wikipedia links. Go discuss a subject you have less emotional connections to.
>> I _lived and worked_ in some muslim countries. They could not care less for this stuff.
From the pages I linked:
In 2008 A Pew Research Center survey found that negative views concerning Jews were most common in the three predominantly Arab nations polled, with 97% of Lebanese having unfavorable opinion of Jews, 95% in Egypt and 96% in Jordan.[60]
>>Some do believe it, but it's not like they act on it.
It is hard to act on hatred against people you threw out from your country long ago... :-)
>>Actually, did you know that in the 19th century (and before), when Jews were persecuted in Europe, Russia and such, they lived mighty fine alongside muslim populations in muslim countries?
Obviously I know more than you... or at least I'm honest and can read. Also in the page I LINKED re the 19th century:
>Seriously, you repeatedly contradict already given Wikipedia links.
Seriously, I doubt I contradict them, without actual examples. I speak from experience AND from readings on the matter.
That said, "Wikipedia links" are not exactly scholarly sources of history, especially without interpretation and understanding of what they mention. Better open some books.
E.g about:
"In 2008 A Pew Research Center survey found that negative views concerning Jews were most common in the three predominantly Arab nations polled, with 97% of Lebanese having unfavorable opinion of Jews, 95% in Egypt and 96% in Jordan.[60]"
So what? Methodology of the research? Funding of the research? Political views of the researches themselves (e.g some institute trying to validate western intervention in the area)? This doesn't sound very impartial: "The Pew Global Attitudes Project is a series of worldwide public-opinion surveys and reports aimed at understanding worldwide attitudes on various issues. The Project is chaired by former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright".
Plus, are the "negative views concerning jews" the same as the antisemitism propaganda (e.g "Jews, the people, are evil"), or like a political statement ("we hate what jews in Israel are doing").
In the cold war, a majority of Americans could say in a poll that they "hate Russians", but I wouldn't take that to mean that they hate russian people as such.
Make those questions, and don't assume everything written on the web or presented by some "impartial source" is the whole of the truth.
>Obviously I know more than you... or at least I'm honest and can read. Also in the page I LINKED re the 19th century:
You must have missed the part in the article that said:
"Arab antisemitism is believed to have expanded since the 19th century. (...) despite its restrictive nature, dhimmi status also afforded the "People of the Book" relative security against persecution and welfare most of the time—a protection that was missing for non-Christians in most of Europe until the institutionalization of equality under a secular idea of citizenship after the French Revolution—and allowed them to enjoy their respective religious laws and ways of life.".
Or: "For most of the past fourteen hundred years, according to Bernard Lewis, Arabs have not been antisemitic as the word is used in the West. In his view this is because, for the most part, Arabs are not Christians brought up on stories of Jewish deicide."
Long story short: they had it better in the muslim countries than in Europe, until it started getting worse since the 19th century.
As for the pogroms you list, you can find some everywhere. That doesn't mean it was the prevalent practice. Note for example the Damascus affair, which you list as an example of "muslim persecution":
"""The Damascus affair was an accusation of ritual murder and a blood libel against Jews in Damascus in 1840. On February 5, 1840, Franciscan Capuchin friar Father Thomas and his Greek servant were reported missing, never to be seen again. The Turkish governor and the French consul Ratti-Menton believed accusations of ritual murder and blood libel, as the alleged murder occurred before the Jewish Passover."""
Notice how the victims were Christians? Noticed how Damascus had a large christian population? Wondered if they are those that initiated the pogrom? Noticed how the Turkish governor AND the French consul believed the accusations?
>> did you know that in the 19th century (and before), when Jews were persecuted in Europe, Russia and such, they lived mighty fine alongside muslim populations in muslim countries?
Wikipedia gave in 30 seconds (in a link I already gave!) 20+ pogroms in the 19th century. You claim a "few" pogroms aren't much to be upset about:
>> As for the pogroms you list, you can find some everywhere. That doesn't mean it was the prevalent practice.
(Then you blame the Christians in Damascus for the pogroms there!!)
20+ pogroms is NOT "mighty fine"! You are writing dishonest propaganda.
You claim to be well read on the subject -- then question Wikipedia without specific complaints or even listing any reference supporting your claims!!
Re antisemitism, there are lots of facts on the Wikipedia links -- including islamic scholars and attitudes in Europe, which should be milder than in the Mid East.
This is about Sweden in the page I referenced twice: "A government study in 2006 estimated that 39% of the Muslim population, harbor strong and consistent antisemitic views."
But maybe they learned that from the Swedes?! :-)
And so on.
Bye, I can't take you seriously when I have to quote every damn word of wikipedia pages or you deny the content (well, you deny the content even when I quote it...)
>Wikipedia gave in 30 seconds (in a link I already gave!) 20+ pogroms in the 19th century.
Making a query and getting some numbers back fast does not equal knowledge on a subject.
>20+ pogroms is NOT "mighty fine"! You are writing dishonest propaganda.
Neither is knee-jerk reaction knowledge. Also, "propaganda" really? For which side, since I acknowledge the wrong-doings of all of them?
20+ pogroms, you say. What does that say in itself? Not much.
You have to measure the importance of those numbers, and put them in historical perspective.
Else, with the same "muslims in the 19th century were as bad as christian nations in treating jews, because they had 20+ pogroms" you could as easily come to the conclusion that the US is an antisemitic haven, what with: "From 1979 to 1989 the ADL recorded more than 9,617 anti-Semitic incidents, including 6,400 cases of vandalism, bombings and attempted bombings, arsons and attempted arsons, and cemetery desecrations. The tally peaked at 2,066 in 1994".
So, let's try QUALITATIVE inquiry, instead of mere numbers. Those 20+ pogroms, how severe where they and how long have they persisted? Were only muslim communities in those multi-cultural cities involved? How do they compare to the situation in Europe and Russia, that had HUNDREDS of pogroms for several centuries, some of very large scale, including the persecution of jews in Russia and the USSR and culminating in the Nazi's genocide?
Read more about the Damascus Affair:
>The Damascus affair occurred in 1840, when a French monk and his servant disappeared in Damascus. Immediately following, a charge of ritual murder was brought against a large number of Jews in the city including children who were tortured. The consuls of England, France and Germany as well as Ottoman authorities, Christians, Muslims and Jews all played a great role in this affair.
Do you see it being especially about muslim persecution? Jewish scholars and writers themselves write that for many centuries jews had it better in muslim countries than they did in Europe. E.g up until in the first part of 20th Century hundreds of thousands of Jews lived in Salonica in peace under ottoman muslim rule (they even called the place "mother of Israel").
Yes, you can find persecution in several cases. That doesn't mean it is at the same level as persecution of jews that was done by christians and christian countries.
>But maybe they learned that from the Swedes?! :-)
Why not? Sweden was a Nazi Germany ally. That Wikipedia calls their stance "neutrality" is beyond comprehension. Here's how they put it:
"Sweden maintained a position of neutrality during the second world war; as such, it acted as a major supplier of raw materials for Hitler's military, laundered the gold confiscated from Holocaust victims, and often failed to provide adequate asylum for refugees including the near-completely exterminated Norwegian Jews. Some Swedes even volunteered with the Waffen SS."
In general, Sweden has a long and convoluted history with the matter (heck, they even had an active eugenics program up until the seventies).
>Bye, I can't take you seriously when I have to quote every damn word of wikipedia pages or you deny the content (well, you deny the content even when I quote it...)
Please don't take Wikipedia as the Bible. Some of the stuff it has is neutralised to not offend anyone, and lacks substance. Other articles contain just the bare facts and numbers, and need interpretation (to be put into perspective) to make any sense.
Especially matters of history that involve politics is not the best domain for Wikipedia. It's far better as a reference for technical and pop culture issues.
Astract: You're a total troll and/or a dishonest propagandist.
It was fun to see your conspiracy theory dismissing the example I quoted from Wikipedia:
>>Sweden was a Nazi Germany ally.
39% of the Muslim immigrants support antisemitism in a poll because the Swedes are Nazis and taught them?!
FYI troll, the Nazis never got much votes in Sweden. (I am Swedish, that is why I used that example.)
Conspiracy theories like that only work in dictatorships, with controlled information. Is what you're used to?
You certainly also have insane conspiracy theories about the rest of the European examples in the Wikipedia link -- Holland, Germany, Norway, etc. (Don't bother to post them, I have enough embarrassing materials if I see you write some other time.)
>Astract: You're a total troll and/or a dishonest propagandist.
Yes, thank you for your deep reading comprehension and insight. I'm sure everybody reading our exchange will reach the same conclusion as you did.
>It was fun to see your conspiracy theory dismissing the example I quoted from Wikipedia:
Was conspiracy theory? I provided facts, you gave me back BS wikipedia quotes you didn't even know how to read.
You found "20+ pogroms in the arab countries" in a Wikipedia search and you thought that closed the deal: jews had it just as bad as they had it in Europe in the arab countries. Despite JEW SCHOLARS saying the opposite.
You keep maintaining that jews had it AS BAD with antisemitism in the muslim world pre 20th century (based on the "20+ pogroms" nugget you found).
Well, here's some QUALITATIVE opinion on the matter, from the VERY wikipedia page you quote:
= = = =
Claude Cahen[2] and Shelomo Dov Goitein[3] argue _against historic antisemitism in Muslim lands_, writing that discrimination practiced against non-Muslims was of general nature, and not targeted specifically at Jews. For these scholars, _antisemitism in Medieval Islam was local and sporadic rather than general and endemic_. For Goitein antisemitism was _not present at all_, and for Cahen it was _rarely_ present.
Bernard Lewis[5] writes that while Muslims have held negative stereotypes regarding Jews, throughout most of Islamic history _these stereotypes were not indicative of antisemitism_ because, unlike Christians, Muslims viewed Jews as objects of ridicule, not fear. He argues that Muslims did not attribute "cosmic evil" to Jews. In Lewis' view, it was _only in the late 19th century that movements first appeared among Muslims that can legitimately be described as antisemitic_.
Frederick M. Schweitzer and Marvin Perry state that there are mostly negative references to Jews in the Quran and Hadith, and that Islamic regimes treated Jews in degrading ways. Jews (and Christians) had the status of dhimmis. They state that _throughout much of history Christians treated Jews worse_, saying that _Jews in Christian lands were subjected to worse polemics, persecutions and massacres than under Muslim rule_.
= = = =
Surely, qualitative information is beyond your comprehension. Blissfully unaware that "information is not understanding".
And to top it, you are quick with typical knee-jerk ad hominen reactions "troll", "conspiracy theory" and such.
>FYI troll, the Nazis never got much votes in Sweden. (I am Swedish, that is why I used that example.)
They didn't get votes, bravo. That's so heroic. They just got a neutral stance and lots of cooperation.
Whereas my country, for one, told them to sod off, defeated the italian fascist army, lost by the German army with lots of casualties and still had a large armed resistance movement while under occupation. Oh, and some hundred thousands of people died from famine --plus some thousands were killed in mass civilians executions from the Nazi's to avenge the local resistance.
Another comment, two days later... I will assume you're not a troll and try to educate you.
To rehash:
You deny all the documentation for widespread antisemitism in the Muslim world - like schoolbooks(!), TV programs, other official media, presidents(!), religious scholars, documented transfer of antisemitism from the 3rd Reich, etc, etc.
Your only counterargument is a claim about personal experience!
My pain limit was your conspiracy theory that 39% of Muslims in Sweden were antisemitic in 2006 because: The Swedes are Nazis and taught the immigrants antisemitism in less than a generation!.
Advice:
There are lots of facts I don't like, "batista". But I don't sell out my intellectual integrity and start lying to deny them. I have some f-ing dignity!
If you want to argue on this subject, instead note that racism were common in Europe until modern times -- it is a phase which hopefully the Muslim world will leave, when their dictators are gone.
Please stop both lying and being a drag on HN quality.
You ignored my single point in the short GP comment.
I wrote: "39% of the Muslim immigrants support antisemitism in a poll because the Swedes are Nazis and taught them?!"
You didn't retract that, you just wrote lots of other text (and attacked Sweden of 65+ years ago!)
that it is just bad propaganda and/or trolling. That stupidity was enough, I have nothing more to say to you, troll.
(As I wrote, it would be fun to copy/paste statistics from other countries to see more of your conspiracy theories -- since you ignore references if I don't copy/paste the content -- but it is enough.)
No, I deny:
1) that this is the kind of "antisemitism hate propaganda" that "left wing idealists" (in the western world) embrace.
2) That this "antisemitism hate propaganda" is even prevalent or has any consequence in the Muslim world. I _lived and worked_ in some muslim countries. They could not care less for this stuff. Some do believe it, but it's not like they act on it. Do you know how many people in the Bible Belt believe similar things?
>Continue reading about the expulsion of the Jews for religious reasons -- they had the same religion as the state religion of Israel, if you want more.
Well, I know about that. I'm from Europe, we like History there. Doesn't have to do with present day muslim-israel relation though.
Actually, did you know that in the 19th century (and before), when Jews were persecuted in Europe, Russia and such, they lived mighty fine alongside muslim populations in muslim countries?
FWIW, the majority of jews persecution has happened by Europeans, by far. Including the Nazi's of course. Muslim states don't even come close, and even then they don't do it for religious reasons, but for political ones (ie they are not against jewism but against the politics of the state of Israel).
(Oh, and another tibbit: pro WW-II, the US was also full of anti-Semitism propaganda).