Librem 5 is a well-documented scam. Some people have gotten phones but Purism has made most people wait for years with no delivery. The ship date always sounds just a couple of months out and they keep pushing it out. If you ask for a refund, they'll try to bullshit you various ways. It's been a couple of years since I washed my hands of them and had my bank force them to refund me. But I waited almost 2 years myself. When I did research, I found people who had been waiting for 5 years. The only people reliably getting the phones were social media influencers. I'm not about to try to order another one.
Librem 5 caught massive delays, but eventually all of the phones had been produced and shipped to people who bought them and they've been available off-the-shelf for a good while now. While I'm not exactly happy with how some events around that project unfolded, it doesn't really fit my definition of a scam either, sorry.
I doubt everyone who ordered a phone got one, and a years-long delay is not acceptable if they put a ship date on their website of only a few months in the future. I found accounts of people who were told that the phone would ship imminently who were forced to wait 5 years and still didn't have the damn phone, and couldn't get a refund.
I'm telling you it's a scam from first-hand experience. You can buy a Linux PinePhone for about $200, and that was available within a year of announcement and within a month of ordering, and it was announced after the $700 non-US Librem 5. I got one while waiting for the Librem 5. Now I know you're gonna say "But Purism has custom hardware, it's not the same..." But the fact is that they misled everyone and probably mismanaged their money. A "preorder" is not the same as an "investment" or "donation" and comes with concrete obligations. They lied over and over and I documented it all for my bank, to get the refund that Purism denied me. They literally told me I had to wait for my number to come up in line. If I trusted them to ever ship the phone, I might as well take the damn phone at that point.
So sorry, you don't know what you're talking about. I don't take calling something a scam lightly, and I believe that the way Purism operated (if not the way they still operate) meets the definition.
> So sorry, you don't know what you're talking about.
I know very well what I'm talking about. I backed the original campaign and later used to work on its software; I know where the delays came from, I know how badly managed the communication around them was, how many of its problems were self-imposed and, roughly, how much money Purism lost on this whole endeavor. Nevertheless, it delivered; the majority of preorders have been fulfilled in 2022 (3 years after the initial estimated shipping date) and all remaining ones in 2023, and there's a surplus of phones in stock since then. The only people who haven't received their phones yet are those that either couldn't be contacted anymore, explicitly asked not to ship yet or requested a refund (and that last group is who you keep seeing the complaints from).
One of the main problems with this project was how stupid its refund policy was, which combined with its delays led to the company eventually refusing to issue them and scaling down to a skeleton crew just to keep afloat and deliver. It did deliver though, I still consider it the best GNU/Linux phone out there even though it's getting rather dated now.
> I backed the original campaign and later used to work on its software; I know where the delays came from, I know how badly managed the communication around the project was, how many of its problems were self-imposed and, roughly, how much money Purism lost on this whole endeavor.
It's not just "bad communication" -- they broke the law. One person's "bad communication" is another person's "contract fraud." Seriously. I was totally ok with waiting several months for the product, but based on the timeline that you yourself have proposed I would have needed to wait from the time of my order in 2019 (a couple of years after they started taking orders!) to 2022 or even 2023 for my order that I paid for and was told would be delivered in 3 months. At some point, you have to pull the trigger on getting a refund, because your legal rights have a time limit on them as well. I don't think you could get a refund for something that you preordered 10 years ago. Furthermore, why the fuck would anyone wait so many years to get a phone which may rapidly become obsolete? To be clear, the time limit to get a refund on a credit card transaction is generally 6 months. My bank made an exception for my case, and might have even taken the hit out of pocket to Purism's benefit (though I think they have the power to not do it, as it's a big bank).
>Nevertheless, it delivered; the majority of preorders have been fulfilled in 2022 (3 years after the initial estimated shipping date) and all remaining ones in 2023, and there's a surplus of phones in stock since then. The only people who haven't received their phones yet are those that either couldn't be contacted anymore, explicitly asked not to ship yet or requested a refund.
Unless you work there I don't think you can possibly know this.
>The main problem with this project was how stupid its refund policy was, which combined with the delays led to the company eventually refusing to issue them and scaling down to a skeleton crew just to keep afloat and deliver. It did deliver though, I still consider it the best GNU/Linux phone out there even though it's getting rather dated now.
No, the main problem with the project was that they didn't ship the fucking phones. Purism sent phones to social media influencers, which drove people to the website that perpetually said the phone was shipping within 3 months. Meanwhile they took everyone's money and tried to weasel out of their obligations, and pissed off even the geekiest people who wanted the phone the most. That's all it takes to destroy your reputation. How many years will it be before their customer base can trust them again? I will probably never buy another one of their phones, because I can't be sure I'll EVER get it. And if you can't trust them on that, can you really trust them on any other issue?
I just casually looked and found someone suing them this year for breach of contract: https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/56159803/Thier_et_a... I didn't download the documents (I'd probably have to pay for them), but there you go. I think there is reason to believe that some people unsatisfied with what Purism is doing to this day. Lying will do that. I think the people who buy Linux phones are pretty generous and tolerant of faults in hardware and software, so it takes a lot for there to be so much bitterness against a company that allegedly does well.
Here's a post about a class-action lawsuit on Reddit, not the only one either: https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/16cn3of/waiting_for... By the way, I got an email like that but it did not offer store credit. It only said I had to wait an indefinite amount of time for my place to come up in the shipping queue or something, to get a REFUND (which I am legally entitled to).
Here's a rant by their former marketing director about why he doesn't think it's worth buying the US version (at least): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIWYN00ssY8 I think he's ranted about Purism in another video, but I can't find it.
Here's one from Louis Rossman, a man who initially supported Purism, in which he calls it a scam: https://youtube.com/watch?v=wKegmu0V75s The person he knows who has firsthand knowledge of Purism, which he cannot disclose, is likely his current employer (a pro-FOSS philanthropist and entrepreneur).
> (a couple of years after they started taking orders!)
The crowdfunding campaign that was meant to finance the development of the phone was only launched at the end on 2017, estimating shipment to be in 2019. The first batch (of limited quantity, a few hundred devices) to ship materialized in December 2019. Afterwards Purism successively shipped about as many phones as were produced, and due to several reasons (COVID amongst them) it ended up being split into several production batches - last of which contained a couple thousands of devices and was shipped out in 2023. Only then it moved from being "backordered" to "product in stock".
The biggest mishap happened around 2020-2021, when it was already apparent that it will take a good while to fulfill all existing preorders, so Purism started setting delivery estimations far into future - 6 months at first, then 12 months - hoping that it will be definitely enough to handle the existing queue and to deter impatient people from ordering. Except even 12 months turned out to not be enough to ship some of those, and eventually people started getting angry.
> Unless you work there I don't think you can possibly know this.
As I said, I used to work on Librem 5's software (started in mid-2019) and I had plenty of internal insight. Most of that has been eventually communicated outside though, even if in a "too little too late" fashion: https://puri.sm/posts/where-is-my-librem-5-part-2/
While Purism's early communication suffered greatly from "technically it's not lying, we'll just avoid telling you the bad news for as long as we possibly can" syndrome, the post above and its part 1 actually described the whole situation in a fairly accurate manner, so I encourage you to read those. Before that they used to tell you things that were technically true like "we're starting shipping soon!", conveniently omitting things like "yeah we're starting, but it will take us several months to push through the queue even if everything goes right to the plan!". And, boy, things did not go right at all.
> No, the main problem with the project was that they didn't ship the fucking phones.
Except they did. The community at forums even graphed out their progress, doing detective's work with as little information as Purism was giving them: https://forums.puri.sm/t/estimate-your-librem-5-shipping/112... (it's not entirely accurate and ends at late-2018 orders, but let's say it's close enough for the purposes of this discussion - you can easily see early production batches there).
I completely agree that Purism did a lot to destroy its reputation and it was deserved. However, posts like yours are misstating the truth to the other extreme. Purism did develop and produce these phones and invested a lot into FLOSS; it took them several years longer than expected to ship, but they already finished shipping more than a year ago. From some point in time they also struggled with fulfilling refunds. If you ask me, these refunds should have never been promised, as at the point in time when they stopped issuing them the money was already all used on development and production - but they did promise such option, so it's their own fault that people expected refunds to be granted. Regardless, an "uh oh, so many people are requesting refunds that we don't have enough money to perform them" fuckup is still far from "being a scam".
(btw. unless something changed very recently, every person who can't get a refund has now an option to instantly get the ordered phone instead, as they've been waiting in a warehouse for many months now; some aren't interested though)
> Here's a rant by their former marketing director
Well, I believe he's one of the people that should be ranted at.
>The crowdfunding campaign that was meant to finance the development of the phone was only launched at the end on 2017, estimating shipment to be in 2019. The first batch (of limited quantity, a few hundred devices) to ship materialized in December 2019. Afterwards Purism successively shipped about as many phones as were produced, and due to several reasons (COVID amongst them) it ended up being split into several production batches - last of which contained a couple thousands of devices and was shipped out in 2023. Only then it moved from being "backordered" to "product in stock".
As I said, I didn't fund a kickstarter. I placed a preorder like thousands of other people apparently. I ordered it in 2019. They did attempt to blame Covid for their long-standing production and delivery issues, despite the fact that other crowdfunded and experimental hardware was shipping with only moderate delays throughout the pandemic (such as the PinePhone!).
>The biggest mishap happened around 2020-2021, when it was already apparent that it will take a good while to fulfill all existing preorders, so Purism started setting delivery estimations far into future - 6 months at first, then 12 months - hoping that it will be definitely enough to handle the existing queue and to deter impatient people from ordering. Except even 12 months turned out to not be enough to ship some of those, and eventually people started getting angry.
People were already angry by 2020, having waited years for their phones as social media influencers were shilling them.
>As I said, I used to work on Librem 5's software (started in mid-2019) and I had plenty of internal insight.
Unless you literally worked for them, for pay, I don't think you would have that insight. And even if you DID work for them, I don't think you would necessarily know the status of all the orders, since that's not your department.
>>No, the main problem with the project was that they didn't ship the fucking phones.
>Except they did. The community at forums even graphed out their progress, doing detective's work with as little information as Purism was giving them: https://forums.puri.sm/t/estimate-your-librem-5-shipping/112... (it's not entirely accurate and ends at late-2018 orders, but let's say it's close enough for the purposes of this discussion - you can easily see early production batches there).
As I said, there are many people who got neither the phone nor a refund, and lawsuits are happening right now. A company that has been proven to lie is telling you that they met their goals, and you're citing them as proof that they met their obligations. Give me a break. There's no proof that they're making thousands of these phones. I will admit that it's possible that the company "just" made a mistake or a handful of mistakes (that happen to be criminal in a factual sense), and that they now have things under control. But I can't trust anything they say now and I'm not about to sit here and be gaslighted by "proof" coming from them again.
>If you ask me, these refunds should have never been promised, as at the point in time when they stopped issuing them the money was already all used on development and production - but they did promise such option, so it's their own fault that people expected refunds to be granted. Regardless, an "uh oh, so many people are requesting refunds that we don't have enough money to perform them" fuckup is still far from "being a scam".
They don't have to promise a refund. It's legally required in most places. For them to have the right to deny a refund, they would have to boldly communicate "NO REFUNDS" and only an idiot would buy the phone at that point. I'm not an investor, I just want(ed) the damn phone. And I only trusted them to sell it to me in advance like that because they sent prototypes to people I trust.
>Regardless, an "uh oh, so many people are requesting refunds that we don't have enough money to perform them" fuckup is still far from "being a scam".
That is a sticky situation. But it is indistinguishable from a scam. If you take someone's money under the pretense of it being a purchase, and subsequently fail to produce either the product or the legally-required refund, that is a scam. "We merely ran out of money" is an excuse that any fraudster could use, if they successfully dispose of the money by paying themselves or something.
>(btw. unless something changed very recently, every person who can't get a refund has now an option to instantly get the ordered phone instead, as they've been waiting in a warehouse for many months now; some aren't interested though)
I don't care if they say that they have the phones now. I can't trust them. As I said, they are legally required to issue refunds in most cases, so if someone requested a refund due to extreme delinquency of fulfillment then they cannot be legally refused the refund. If they are as profitable as they claim they are, then issuing real cash refunds to their customers instead of a device should be no problem for them.
I could consider buying a phone from them IF I was guaranteed that they would either give me the phone or a refund within a month. But given the numerous accounts on Reddit and elsewhere that they NEVER do refunds, I'm not fucking around with them ever again. I can do a credit card chargeback but that is seriously a pain in the ass. Last time I had to fax a bunch of shit to my bank. I won't take a chance on that again.
>Well, I believe he's one of the people that should be ranted at.
I can't remember if he was there at the time of the phone fiasco. He also probably took orders directly from the CEO and could not contradict him. His take is nevertheless valuable because he is familiar with the company.
> They did attempt to blame Covid for their long-standing production and delivery issues, despite the fact that other crowdfunded and experimental hardware was shipping with only moderate delays throughout the pandemic (such as the PinePhone!).
PinePhone managed to be done just in time to mostly avoid the COVID woes, it also used parts that were much less affected by supply chain disruption. Librem 5 was already late at that point for unrelated reasons, but had COVID not happened I'm pretty sure the phones would have been all shipped about two years earlier at least. i.MX 8 shortages are well documented outside of the Librem 5's context, although to be fair the fact that at the time COVID happened Purism still didn't have some of the most vital components secured yet is purely on them (as was the initial schedule being completely unrealistic).
> As I said, there are many people who got neither the phone nor a refund
...only because they didn't want the phone anymore. I understand that choice, but it's a choice they made.
> If they are as profitable as they claim they are
...because they were finally able to book the shipped phones as profit rather than keep them as liability. It doesn't say anything about the cashflow though.
> and subsequently fail to produce either the product or the legally-required refund
It's a good thing Purism did produce the product then, even if late. It would have been much simpler not to, as the unit price ended up being much higher than what most people paid for it, but in the end the difference got covered from other sources (such as sales of laptops and other products) and by cutting the costs (such as my and others' pay).
> and you're citing them as proof that they met their obligation
The chart I pointed to was made independently by the community based on customers' self-reports. The blog post I pointed to I'm only citing because it matches what I know from plenty of other sources - obviously I can only link to what's public.
> I can't remember if he was there at the time of the phone fiasco.
Yes he was, and he was still there when I joined (though not for very long). I have my opinions.
> Unless you literally worked for them, for pay, I don't think you would have that insight. And even if you DID work for them, I don't think you would necessarily know the status of all the orders, since that's not your department.
I did, I had, I've seen the production batches getting delivered from China, I've seen support requests from people who were receiving their phones, I've seen the user community grow, I've seen non-public order, refund and revenue numbers, I've seen people who wanted a refund but couldn't get it change their minds and receive the phone instead, and plenty of other things... What I'm saying isn't based on some blog post or something someone told me as "trust me bro", it's based on lots of various data points I've seen over the years, including off-the-record conversations with colleges from various departments (including some disgruntled ones, for good reasons), that were all consistent with each other.
Of course you're still free not to trust me. But that's not my problem. I just want to get the facts straight in case others read this, as ultimately I'm fairly proud of what we managed to achieve with this device. I'm still daily-driving one myself.
>...only because they didn't want the phone anymore. I understand that choice, but it's a choice they made.
No, they had no choice, as I made clear many times now. People posting on Reddit just a couple of months ago prove that. A lawsuit going on in 2025 also proves that. Stop lying to me man.
>What I'm saying isn't based on some blog post or something someone told me as "trust me bro", it's based on lots of various data points I've seen over the years, including off-the-record conversations with colleges from various departments (including some disgruntled ones, for good reasons), that were all consistent with each other.
This isn't any "Trust me bro" shit. What you have said is exactly that. I think you are deluded at best about what they actually accomplished.
>Of course you're still free not to trust me. But that's not my problem. I just want to get the facts straight in case others read this, as ultimately I'm fairly proud of what we managed to achieve with this device.
Of course I don't trust you or anyone connected to that project lol. The FACTS are that I along with many other people were abused by this company, and I'm never going to stop telling people about it or allow people such as myself to be gaslit about what happened.
I hope that Purism turns its act around and becomes a reputable company. I wish we had options for Linux phones But I have zero confidence that this has happened (as you claim it has), and I'm not doing business with them again unless they become a much better company and it's obvious and well-documented.
By the way, nobody is going to see this argument because the post is flagged.
I'm done with this discussion. Save your gaslighting for someone who has no experience to disprove you.
> No, they had no choice, as I made clear many times now.
Everything you pointed to only confirms what I'm saying. Anyone who wanted the phone could get it. Some people got tired of waiting and decided they don't want one anymore and want a refund instead - and they can't get one, despite of being promised otherwise many years ago. Those people end up with no phone and no refund unless they change their mind again and confirm their shipping address. That's still shitty, but distinct from "taking the money and running away".
From what I've been told refunds were still being processed, although very slowly. That I have no way of verifying though (but no reason not to believe it either - although I also wouldn't be surprised if it was about people taking legal action...).
As I said, the default is that consumers are entitled to refunds regardless of whether they were promised or not. The fact that anyone has to take it to court in 2025 tells me this is not a reputable company. Furthermore I don't have any reputable way to know if the phones are actually shipping on time in 2025. I think that anyone filing a lawsuit would probably take the phone instead of incurring the expense of suing for a few hundred dollars. But here we are...
> I think that anyone filing a lawsuit would probably take the phone instead of incurring the expense of suing for a few hundred dollars.
You'd be surprised.
I've personally managed to convince a few people to choose to get the phone right away rather than wait for a refund in conversations similar to this one - and they got them. It's not as easy as it may seem, and some people didn't want to hear about it at all. People left hanging for so long react very emotionally and I can't really blame them. I'm not even sure how I'd react myself with my own order if I didn't have inside knowledge and haven't seen things moving firsthand.
