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As a European, I’m trying to see the positive side of this situation. Here are a few thoughts:

- It appears that Democrats are often seen as part of an "elite," which makes it difficult for people at home to relate to or understand their message. A full reset might be needed to bridge this gap.

- Europe has long been under the shadow of the United States. Perhaps this could be a good start toward greater independence for Europe.






Are there actual efforts or will to make a stronger Europe? Honest question

Currently, It is the opposite, I think ..

italian, greek and french prime ministers and presidents have spoken on their proposals for a european army

> Europe has long been under the shadow of the United States. Perhaps this could be a good start toward greater independence for Europe.

I wish this were true for so long, but so far we have seen nothing. Not even Draghis recommendations were really introduced.


There is no positive for Europe. Only bad to worse. Globalization is dead. In Africa hunger and mass migration to Europe. Europe needs to militarize: Defense budget >5%, deportations, conscription, nukes and a fully functional independent army against expansionist Russia who now will have Trump's acquiesence. America must be seen as possible enemy. I am not being hyperbolic. It's parabellum.

But that’s precisely the point. If there are new adversaries, new obstacles, it’s essential to work toward becoming stronger, more independent, more prepared and building greater unity among states.

I agree with you, things are looking bad... Today, I'm just trying to be positive. Tomorrow, maybe not ...


I mean, all other things being equal, it would be better if we didn't have to do those things, no?

Imagine we could spend those resources towards more constructive endeavours. Not just for Europeans, but also people in the US and Russia. Take a look at [1] – they could be doing so much better.

It's all just so sad. And pointless.

Also then there's the entire business with global warming.

[1]: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.MA.IN?locat...


Thanks for the link. Interesting graph! Do you know what caused the increase in 2021?

The dip is probably COVID; it's not really an increase, more return to norm.

Europe did (mostly) nothing during and after the previous Trump presidency. I don’t see how it could be different.

And it’s not like Europe was currently in a good state politically speaking.


There were a couple of moderately sane people around him during his first term. There will be less of them this time around.

For me, the most positive outcome is the EUR to USD exchange rate. It's gonna be at least 1:1 pretty soon.

Maybe it’s a signal towards the end of flags.

The end of the war in Ukraine suddenly got much closer. I can't think of something more positive for me as an European.

The elite comment is so funny considering the biggest sponsor of Trump aka not elite (?) is Elon Musk the richest man ever (?!).

Right-wing demagogues have been playing this game for years. Imagine being the party of billionaires and pointing to the other side and shouting "elites!"

I've never understood it, but it's an impressive party trick.


It worked. Putin now is on top. And Europe must prepare. America now will be hostile.

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Ossobuco, the Italien defender of (checking their comment history) Russia, the Cuban government, the Iranian government,... (probably something else but I stopped checking)

Yes, the proud Italian defender of world peace and cooperation. What do you defend?

Wanting "World peace" alone is dumb. Imagine if everybody just let the Nazis win WW2 to avoid wars.

That's a false analogy. We're not fighting the Nazis, and Russia has no intention of dominating the world. If waging war was enough to be like the Nazis, I believe the USA got there a long time ago.

Its the correct analogy. The russians are literally the same as the nazis. They are commiting genocide against the Ukrainians and they have already made clear that they intend to dominate europe.

and wanting to fight over nothing is worse unfortunately, it's not even principled it's just arrogance

Checking comment history and judging a post not by its content but by the history and association of the poster? How reddit of you

I can only hope you're right. But I fear that the reality will be closer to simply a withdrawal of US support for the defense of Europe and NATO.

It is ignorant to believe that Ukraine's capitulation would mean that everyone lives happy in peace forever after. Russian officials and national TV have floated the idea of invading Baltic states and other countries more than once. Is the plan to just let them take whatever they want, and condemn any resistance? What happened to defending allies and democracies?


End of war in Ukraine, start of war in Poland?

You need to get off reddit.

Russia has no interest in going to war against NATO, or Poland, or other European countries. Their only goals, which are obvious to anyone who looks into the situation, is to take the eastern provinces of Ukraine, prevent Ukraine joining nato, and stop ukraine from having nuclear weapons.


They have similar ideas about Moldova and the Baltics. The intense militarization within the Russia is not going to end anytime soon - we've seen this play out in Germany 90 years ago, why do you think this time will be different?

No they don't. Why didn't Russia do anything when the Baltics were in the process of joining NATO? If they had plans for them, they were going to do it before they joined the biggest defense alliance.

If you think this is like Germany 90 years ago, I recommend you read up some history.


Please make your substantive points without crossing into personal attack.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


The Baltics joined NATO in 2004 when the Russian economy was less than 1/4th the size of what it is now and Russia had just come out of the economic chaos of the 1990s. Their armed forces were also deeply dysfunctional and underfunded back then and struggled against pockets of Chechen separatists.

So, their march on Kyjiw was just a lapse? They realised half way and this is why they turned? Ridiculous.

Even then they were ready to sign a peace deal that was what I said: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/06/15/world/europe/...

And the march on kyiv was an attempt to strongarm them into that deal, yeah.


The end of the war on Russia's terms is not positive for any European.

It will be positive for the thousands of Ukrainian men that get drafted and sent to die.

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Mate, we tried that for 20 years. And in especially in the later years, against better judgement and forgiving of A LOT of bad faith behaviour from the Russian government. And an outright dictatorship in the EU? lolno.

The EU wanted to embrace Russia, desperately so.

Many Europeans live with this notions "it's better if we all stop fighting and get along". That was certainly the prevalent attitude when I was growing up in the 90s in a post-cold war world. And they're right too, it is better for everyone. But some people aren't interested in what's better for everyone or even their country, they're only interested in what's best for them. Very sad a small group of assholes can just mess things up for so many people, but here we are.

I think that's the hard lessons many Europeans have learned over the last few years, or are in the process of learning (myself included).


>Mate, we tried that for 20 years.

We've been doing everything but sustaining neutral relations with Russia. Our foreign policy has been explicitly anti-Russian for decades. The Ukraine war is the blowback.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1ghs32...


Like every dictator before him, Putin has fashioned a victimhood narrative. Trump does the same, as did Castro, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, etc. etc. etc. All these people always claim to be the victim.

There are so many things to comment on in that video and I really don't have the time or interest. but I will comment on one thing: the US bombed Yugoslavia to stop a campaign of genocide.

"Never again" also applies to the Balkans.

Europe and the US did everything they could to NOT intervene. If anything, I think it's an embarrassment we didn't do more sooner. You could argue a little bit about whether it really should have been NATO (rather than the EU or US) that undertook the campaign, and details like that. But I don't think it's very important to the of it.

Of course, that is left out by Sachs. He's repeating a fake victimhood narrative stringed together by half-truths, exaggerations, strategic forgetfulness, and outright nonsense.


Your comment really underscores the issue with the NATO project as a supposed defensive alliance. You think if there is a moral reason for doing something, then that renders all other constraints moot. But because intervening in Yugoslavia was deemed the moral course of action, that shouldn't indicate to Putin or anyone else that NATO will act offensively if they deem some act moral coded. But NATO doesn't get to decide when its actions are precedent-setting and when they aren't. NATO's own history undermines the claim that it is purely a defensive alliance.

That you outright ignore that there was an objective real genocide campaign going on says a lot. The notion they attack nations for all sorts of dubious reasons is just bollocks. This is no better than "remember when the Americans invaded Europe in 1944?!" The context matters.

I'm not ignoring it, it's just that it doesn't alter the calculus for every other nation who might be the target of NATO at some point in the future. NATO only needs to engage in an offensive action once for the precedent to be set permanently. How justified the action was just doesn't matter.

It also underscores the point that there is no objective moral standard to which we can appeal to simultaneously allow an intervention without also permanently altering the power balance in relevant regions. The US right now says genocide is beyond the pale thus warranting intervention. In the future they may say cracking down on political dissent is beyond the pale thus warranting intervention in Russia. Moral impetus tend to be subject to scope creep at the behest of current national interest.


That’s ridiculously naive. This WAS the path we were on. But EU didn’t reject Russia. Russia rejected EU. EU liberal democratic culture was a threat to Putins power. He did not want Russia or their immediate neighbours (which could influence Russia) to get any ideas about liberal democratic values.

I agree that bringing Russia into EU - or at least being a good friend of EU - is the path to peace and safety. But EU can’t do this if Russia doesn’t want any part of it. In hindsight Russias economic integration was mainly an attempt to make EU think twice about responding when Russia harasses its neighbours.

Russia is an imperial state with imperial ambitions. Every day on Russian state TV (with Putins implicit approval) they’re talking about how they will bomb and or take over Germany again. That the Baltic states and Ukraine rightfully belong to them. That Ukraine is full of nazis. How can you just ignore that and think everything will be all right if we just asked Russia very kindly to be friends again?

And no, this has nothing to do with NATO expansion. Russia has nukes. NATO is not a credible military threat to Russia. Putin knew VERY well that his actions would push Finland and Sweden into NATO which completely invalidates the idea that he cares at all about NATO. You know… except that getting Ukraine into NATO would have removed the option of annexing Ukraine territory which was obviously unacceptable.


Lol. Yeah well if we are willing to trade our last shreds of integrity and capitulate that dictatorship is the winning strategy then sure. I mean, not to bring WW2 in the discussion, but back in that time people thought giving them what they want would lead to peace.

These things also span decades or centuries so I think there will be time when Russia and the West will be closer again. It's just they have to stop their imperialism and grabbing land. Think they have enough already.


Giving big Chamberlain energy.

Giving big history ignorant energy.

Yeah right, no sane person in the EU wants to be in any union with those thugs.

Why not? We're already in union with the US, which also invades other countries when it feels like it, and nobody sees that as a problem. If anything, we should get along better with Russia because we share frontiers.

You’re getting there! If we were independent from the US right now, we would not be calling for a union right after they invaded a country on our doorsteps.

The US does not want to conquer Europe. That's evidenced by the fact that they basically conquere and re-conquered (from the Germans) France, Italy and most of Germany in 1944-45, and then left, leaving those countries be. In the same time, Russia re-conquered Poland, Lithuania, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, East Germany - and never left. They were happy occuping those areas.

> and most of Germany in 1944-45, and then left

Then left? Well, considering the US has like 40 military bases in Germany, like almost 50.000 stationed personnel there, and there are still some restrictions on what Germany can or cannot do, I won't say they left. Heck, they can also bug the chancellor's phone for decades or blow up their energy infrastructure and nothing happens when it comes to light.

I'm sure Russia would be more than satisfied if they could have kept all of that in their former satellite states including Ukraine.


Left in the sense that Germans were allowed to govern themselves. Whereas countries reconquered by Russia were ruled by local cronies whose loyalty was to Moscow as much as to their home country. And, if those guys tried getting some independent ideas, Russian tanks rolled in to remove them from power (Budapest 1956, Prague 1968).

That's true, however we don't know what would happen if the German people elected somebody contrary to the interests of the US. To this date, no German government has implemented any "independent ideas" that bothered the US. When they tried, like with the NS2, they were warned of the consequences, and ultimately agreed to comply.

Germany or France didn't go to the Iraq war as a part of the "coalition of the willing", and said would vote against it in the UN. If Poland tried doing that to the USSR, there'd be a huge risk of Russian tanks in Warsaw and a government change. In fact, almost all major decisions Polish authorities made had to factor in the risk of Russian backlash and invasion. For example, they decided to institute martial law in 1981 and squash Solidarity, because they the alternative (Solidarity squashed by Russian tanks) would be much more bloody.

> and nobody sees that as a problem.

Actually, many many people see that as a problem


I do! I'd much rather see that than a general war with Russia, thank you.

Only the insane believe this war could end in anything but extinction or decades of misery and conflict.


They're large by territory, but small in terms of economy. Russians put a lot of weight on the former, but it's not very relevant in this day and age, especially considering how uninhabitable a huge chunk of it is.

In any case, I'm surprised this is an issue for you, considering this war revealed how inept Russia's military actually is.


I never felt the need to become friends with the biggest bully in high school. Why start now?

OK, so we fight until there's nobody left alive for what exactly?

Most of the Russian proposed peace plans are basically. "Leave it alone and stop fighting".

Hardly the demand of Kiev on a silver platter and would save a lot of resoruces/lives.

Is Ukranian pride worth it's economic destruction, worth lining the pockets of the war merchants or worth the continued spiraling death toll?

It's a little less David vs Goliath and more aknin to Davids little cousin tommy with a waterpistol vs a flame thrower...


You do realize that Russia's imperial ambitious won't just suddenly vanish away after the war in Ukraine? Russia will keep being Russia if we meet their terms.

There is a thing called history. Without context all aggression is blind. Please go away and read up. This is not a new blitzkreig despite how many like warm IQs day it is. If it was Kiev would be a parking lot and Germany would be negotiating Poland future already

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I can see and hear its rockets every time Russia decide to target cities in Eastern Ukraine.

Ok. How about when the west attacks Russia?

We simply don’t believe there’s a positive scenario for Ukraine in sight.

Not sure it has. It depends on European reaction.

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Here's a hypothetical situation for you, arguendo in a world without nukes: China invades the US, takes over a couple of states, then a new leader of Germany is elected who will push to reduce any supplies coming in from Europe and will negotiate with China to end the war. Of course China gets to keep the few states they've gotten since they have a large Chinese population, fair is fair after all, we just want peace. Also China's demands include the US to demilitarize except for a small force, so they don't feel threatened by it, after all the US could invade them in the future otherwise! Oh well, all for peace I guess.

In this hypothetical do I win the lottery or world peace prize ;)



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